Election Day Special Coverage – Races We’ll Be Watching

GamePolitics is a single-issue site. Video games and politics, that’s all we cover.

And while we don’t advocate casting your vote based solely on this issue, we know it’s important to you – otherwise you wouldn’t be reading GP. So let’s take a look at races around the country that involve candidates with involvement in the politics of video games:

U.S. Senate:

  • Hillary Clinton (D-NY): sponsor of the Family Entertainment Protection Act (FEPA)
  • Joe Lieberman (I-CT): his criticism of game violence in the mid-1990’s led directly to the formation of the ESRB
  • Rick Santorum (R-PA): backs Hillary’s game initiatives, but also backs the ESRB
  • George Allen (R-VA): backs the ESRB rating system
  • Candidate Mike McGavick (R-WA): trying to unseat Democrat Maria Cantwell; he believes the entertainment industry will not regulate itself and wants to explore legislative solutions

U.S. Congress:

  • Fred Upton (R-MI): sponsor of the “Video Game Decency Act”
  • Cliff Stearns (R-FL): sponsor of the “Truth in Video Game Ratings Act”
  • Jim Matheson (D-UT): sponsor of the “Video Games Ratings Enforcement Act”
  • Joe Baca (D-CA): sponsor of “SAFE Rating Act”
  • Betty McCollum (D-MN): offered harsh criticism of ESRB rating system at recent NIMF Ratings Summit
  • Candidate Ed Perlmutter (D): seeking election in Colorado; promises video game legislation
  • Candidate Dave Mejias (D): sponsor of Nassau County, NY law requiring ratings awareness

Governor Races:

  • Michigan incumbent Jennifer Granholm (D) – led her state’s failed attempt to legislate video game content
  • California incumbent Arnold Schwarzenegger (R) – signed his state’s video game bill into law; law is currently blocked, awaiting a final ruling
  • Illinois incumbent Rod Blagojevich (D) – led his state’s failed attempt to legislate video game content; state was ordered to reimburse the video game industry more than $500,000 in legal fees
  • Oklahoma incumbent Brad Henry (D): signed his state’s video game bill into law; law is currently blocked, awaiting a final ruling
  • Minnesota incumbent Tim Pawlenty (R): signed the Gopher State’s ill-fated video game law into effect.
  • Minnesota challenger Mike Hatch (D): current Attorney General, defended the Minnesota bill in court and lost. Along the way Hatch called violent games “worthless, disgusting speech” and “speech of low societal value.”
  • New York candidate Eliot Spitzer (D): the popular Attorney General is a shoe-in to become governor; earlier this year he promised video game legislation
  • Texas challenger Chris Bell (D): promised video game legislation, but seems likely to lose the race to incumbent Rick Perry
  • Georgia: Candidate (and current Lt. Guv) Mark Taylor (D) promises video game legislation
  • Kansas: incumbent Kathleen Sebelius (D) backed a video game bill which failed in the state legislature

Other State-level Races:

  • Minnesota: Rep. Jeff Johnson (R), co-sponsor of the state’s video game law, is running for Attorney General
  • Georgia: incumbent Attorney General Thurbert Baker is running for re-election; Baker has publicly supported the video game industry’s ESRB rating system
  • California: Assembly Speaker Leland Yee (D), sponsor of his state’s video game legislation, is a lock to move up to the State Senate
  • North Carolina: State Senator Julia Boseman (D), sponsor of her state’s failed video game legislation, is in a tough re-election battle
  • Kansas: Rep. Tom Thull (D) promises video game legislation
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  1. 0
    Brer says:


    I’ll take gridlock over rubberstamp any day of the week, although I would have preferred a split (with Republicans keeping the Senate) to the control of both houses it -looks- like they’ll have pending VA. As for Santorum: good riddance to bad rubbish.

    Unfortunately most of these politicians were never in any real danger, or at least not in danger of being replaced by others who would actually vote -against- video game legislation.

  2. 0
    ~the1jeffy says:


    GP has it first troll. I thought the ‘lurker’ in LTL’s avatar was a strong clue, but the recent posts show exactly what LTL is.

    Anyway, keeping it only slightly off-topic for a comment section dedicated to the election –

    “Nasrallah and company are right when they assert that today we’re essentially weak-willed, and will give up and run away from any fight that lasts longer than a year or two.”

    *sigh* Sadly, this is true, Americans turned out in record numbers to vote Democrat in order to get out of Iraq. Unfortunately, this will cause problems down the road. See my little STD analogy above.

    “Clear Exit Strategy” is all well and good, but when I see the advice from US Military leadership of ‘More troops, longer term deployment,’ and the growing will of people both domestic and abroad of, ‘Get out of Iraq,” I grow worried, because the tremendous disconnect between what has to be done and the will do it wwill lead to problems. (Run-on sentence!!)

    To the topic: Santorum is out, as I hoped, but the measely 1% (roughly) that write-ins took is not enough to send a message. Too bad; I tried. I couldn’t stomach voting for a arch-conservative who is plainly terrified about the simple reality of human sexuality, or someone who’s platform is enitrely – “I’m not THAT guy!” I wrote in Carl Romanelli (Green Party), who wasn’t perfect, but closely mirrored my own views. Either way, the impending gridlock in Congress will mean nothing major will get done, for good or for bad.

  3. 0
    Brer says:


    I link you to a an argument from an -anti-war- site criticizing the methodology and conclusions of the lancet study on rational grounds, and you respond with accusations of mass conspiracy and governmental coverup on the part of -two- different governments, again without providing any references to back up your claims. As for the political nature of the study, I give you the Editor of the Lancet speaking at an anti-war rally:


    This is not the behaviour of someone dedicated to the accurate collection of scientific, medical, or epidemiologic data. This is the behaviour of someone pushing a specific political agenda.

    I point out that supporting an enemy against a more pressing enemy does not make them your friend, you caounter with the argument that because there’s a photograph of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam in ’84 that means he was friendly towards us. Here is what our intelligence agencies -actually- had to say on the matter:


    To summarize: Our priorities were to keep the Strait of Hormuz open to shipping traffic, and to ensure that the region remained relatively stable. Iran was extremely hostile towards at the time (and still is) after the Islamic Revolution and the removal of the Shah, and a strong victory by Iran could threaten both those goals. Therefore it was in our interests to support Saddam as long as he continued to help us maintain access.

    I can’t say I agree with the Reagan Administration’s realpolitik-ing with Iraq in the early 80s, but there’s nothing in those documents or any others suggesting that the relationship was every anything other than an alliance of temporary mutual interest: mutual inerest that disappeared when Hussein invaded Kuwait. He went from being instrumental in protecting our national interests to threatening them.

    I call bullshit on your claim of “death squads” in Iraq being supported by the US, and you respond not with proof, but with more -accusations-. You may have missed it, but that article talks about CIA support of nationalist forces that ALLEGEDLY had death squads. More importantly, how does what the CIA may or may not have done in South America constitute -evidence- of activities in Iraq. Once again you respond to a call for references or evidence with more accusations instead of facts.

    “Also it is bull that the goverment in Iraq is independent. They were set up by the US. We could get rid of them if we needed.”

    “We could get rid of them” is not the same thing as “they are not independant”, LTL. We could get rid of France’s government if we wanted to, or that of any other country on earth with the possible exception of China, and yet I don’t hear any accusations that they’re puppet governments. It would be far easier if they -were- under our control, since we wouldn’t have to deal with bullshit like this:

    or this:
    or this:
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6186826 (I especially recommend this last one. The bit on General Ayoub starts a minute or two in)

    General Bashar Mahmoud Ayoub is a great soldier, and a patriot, and he was removed from his command because he criticized the Iraqi MoI and MoD for supporting militias. We -fought- to keep him in place.

    “under the laws of the Bushco admin contracters are free to kill anybody in Iraq without being punished.Trophy vids of American paid mercanaries in Iraq show them killing innocent women and children. These people then trade the videotapes of the killing to get things like pornography or alchol.”

    More random allegations without evidence. Have a source for this?

    “Many GIs from Iraq do confirm horrible things going on namely American troops killing civilians under orders…No person in Iraq unless they lived in the green zone or benefited from the occupation would deny the accuracy of the 600,000 figure.”

    …I served in the US Army for five years. I’ve been to Iraq, fought and lived there in the cities just north of Baghdad as well as Mosul and the cities and towns that stretch west of Mosul to the Syrian border like Tal Afar, Biaj, and Sinjar, and -I’m- denying the accuracy of the 655,000 figure because not only did I see nothing to support it, and not just because no one else who served with me, or who is still in Iraq saw or see anything to support it, but because even people who are -against- the war and have demonstrated that there are serious flaws in the numbers. I’ve put up with about as much of this slander as I can take, because I can tell you from -personal- experi
    I’m not sure where you’re getting youence that your allegations of US misconduct “under orders” are -bullshit-. No one is shooting civilians under orders from the chain of command, and when there have been individuals or units that have gone out of control such as the Marines that are currently on trial, we have brought them back under control and charged them criminally. There are no “overflowing graveyards” either, for that matter.

    I know, I said I wouldn’t post again, don’t feed the troll, etc, etc, but I’m getting tired of people spouting off outrageous whoppers without even -trying- to back them up with facts or evidence.

  4. 0
    Yuki says:

    Well most of the polls are in, Dems got the house, but senate is still in debate. That being said, I personally see this as not really making anything better, but thats just my opinion in general. Sure, maybe we get our troops home soon, and then six months later, boom, 9/11 2 happens and everyone is screaming again, this time at the dems. Had the reps won, we stay safe at home while our troops fight it out abroad. I dont like it either way, but one is clearly better then the other in my eyes. Secondly, say good by to your tax breaks folks, dems gonna fleece you good. Shame that, since they’ll also trash the economy and make it harder to get jobs. Despite what the media claims, doing research shows that while we had a deficet increase, overall, the economy grew by leaps and bounds.

    So, that being said, and trust me, I could still be proven wrong if the dems can drop the “Hate bush” stick and get something done, well hell, i’d be the first to congratulate them.

    But that being the case, I do think one thing won’t change, and it’s the thing that is directly related to this site.

    Dem or Rep, they might finally STFU about games now that the elections are over. least for the next 2 years.

    So, whats you take folks?

  5. 0
    longtimelurker says:

    “On the counter point, people are no longer being sentenced to death by being dipped in acid for protesting against Saddam. “

    Hundreds of people each month in Iraq are being dragged out of their homes, shops and shot in the heads on the street. You may want to verify stories of supposed torture under Saddam. Just like a lot of stories of Iraqi soldiers doing stuff in Kuwait it turned out to be lies or embellishments.

    People are found with their bodies holed with electric drills, entire families.

    Torture under the occupation is far worse then anything Saddam ever did. Heck in Abu Gharib under the US occupation forces boys under the age of 10 were sodomized to get their mothers to tell where their insurgent husbands were. Women prisoners were often repeatdly raped by US troops.

    Studies have shown that torture is far worse far more widespread in Iraq then under Saddam. Saddam if you were to ask Iraqis on the street a good number of them would tell you that life was better under Saddam.

    Let me guess you think that statue toppling was done by Iraqis. Nope it was a US military psychologial warfare op. They brought people in.

  6. 0
    Keaton2008 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    Indeed. That’s what makes Ohio special. 😀 (I WANT OUT OF OHIO)

    Tomarrow will be better for me (and everybody): no more damn ‘vote for so-and-so because that-other-guy did something-very-naughty’ calls keeping me from Halo 2.

  7. 0
    Chuma ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    Tax breaks only work on a strong and well managed economy. At the moment the US$ is weaker than it was in parts of the 1980’s and the US Debt levels are at unprecidented levels… this since Clinton actually managed to balance the budget and get rid of the national debt. Thats right, Bush started at 0 and in 4 years managed to get the US into the most debt it had ever been in. In the 2 years following it has doubled further. On top of that, most of the tax breaks are aimed at the top 1% of earners who, lets face, could afford to pay more tax…

    This side of Atlantic is going to be much more strange come the next election. Everyone is fed up of Blair and his agenda but Labour is traditionally a Centre Left party, now very much moved to Centre Right. It’s entirely possible as the US moves to a Democrat, the UK moves to Conservatives. Ah politics… its all nonesense, lies and corruption.

    As for gaming… well it’s just a scapegoat to, and I quote George Carlin, ‘distract the Middle Classes from how badly they are being fucked by the upper 1%’. Promote fear, fear of anything, and you get conformity, histeria and stupidity. The US isn’t the only country to use this, it just seems to have an administration that is most reliant upon it at the moment.

  8. 0
    YUki says:

    Chuma, you prove my point.

    Everything you said is a parroting of what the media says. Problem is, it’s not accurate, least, not totally.

    While I already said that the deficet did rise, Unemployment is at it’s lowest point in nearly 30 years. Nearly 20 million jobs have been created. And despite what you may have heard, the Rich, as you said, the upper 10 percent in america? Pay better then 40 percent of the taxs. Upper middle? 25, middle, 20, the rest is divided between the middle class and the lower middle. The lowest class of wage earners in america? They pay a whooping 3 percent under bush.

    Yeah, that tax break did the top 1 percent a gread deal of good didn’t it.
    Typical liberal BULLSHIT!, and it saddens me that someone as bright as you chuma, didn’t see through it. That being said, Reps got there share of problems. Went into war with the right intentions, fucked up the execution by playing nice nice for the UN, didn’t act fast enough to help iraq stabilize, now there getting hit for it.. And in the intrest of full disclosure, I’m on of those who belives that the UN should be disbanded, or that the US should stop funding it and let them fend for them selves.

    Now, that being said, your right on the whole gaming thing, Ironicly, your quote for carlin is proof of my point.

    Tell me, who was it that was trying to distract the middle class about how bad there being fucked, even when all the evidance shows the exact opposite? thats right, Democrats.

    So, yeah, neither party is the best, but if you belive the liberal media over here, your a retard. They’ve been a biased self serving load of jack holes for 2 decades now. I don’t belive a word they say. I do my own damn research.

  9. 0
    Yuki says:

    PS. Lurk

    I’m the son of a solder who served in VIetnam, and KOREA. Watch your tounge cause I can tell you right now, John kerry lied about what troops did over there. I know, My Father was there to see what happened.

    You can dislike the war if you like ,I dont’ hold that against you, as even I have doubts about it some times, but don’t dare impune the troops until all the facts are out. Otherwise, your on the same level as John Murtha and John Kerry, both former solders who turned there backs on US service men for political gain.

    Yeah, thats real leadership, stabbing the us troops in the back for your own benefit.

  10. 0
    Raven says:

    As a native Texan, I’m pretty confident Bell doesn’t have a chance. When in the few weeks before you have to beg to an Independent candiate to drop out of the race to gain votes, it’s a good sign you are screwed. For the other candiates in the Govenor race, there has not been any real discussion on violent video games, with the big issues being education reform, the controversal Trans-Texas Corridor, and border security. Bell was probably looking for a hot-topic moral issue to sway the so-called “values voters.”

    And on that note, it’s part of the reason why I voted early for Kinky Friedman.

  11. 0
    dog welder ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    From the polls, Hillary Clinton is way ahead and should win re-election easily.

    Lieberman is ahead but within the margin of error against the Democrat who beat him in the primary.

    Allen is literally within a dead heat with Webb in Virginia. He closed up a lot of ground in the past couple of weeks after revealing the content of some of Webb’s books.

    Santorum is pretty much toast. He was about 10 points behind the last time I checked.

    Not sure about the other elections, but it looks like the Senate will barely stay Republican (according to the polls). The House is looking for a major flip, however.

    And Terminator44, I wish I could remember which candidate, but one of them in the Cinci area was touting video game legislation. It might have been Chabot (a Republican) who’s in a tight race that’s turned nasty here.

  12. 0
    J-Guy says:

    Wow. One guy supports the system. I guess the rest have decided to jump on the speeding train that is attacking video games.

    I wish we could bring a large group of gamers to some meeting and prove to them that they are just throwing out garbage. I see no one trying to censor violent movies.

  13. 0
    lordknightshade says:

    Correction to the above:
    “…I’d hate to see one of the most popular and well-read gaming+politics site on the net skip out on the chance to promote gamer-goodness.”

    Not “love” to see. 😛

  14. 0
    Brer says:


    You’re looking forward to -Democrats- reducing -Spending-?? HAHAH!! That’s a good one. Now on a more serious note. Also, I suspect (although it would take a longer discussion) that your sense of “fair share” is suspect.


    Err, no, the Lancet Study is politicized, twisted statistics at its worst, and even people AGAINST our current operations in Iraq think so, such as here:


    “Death Squads funded by the United States”

    Define funded by, and source your assertion. If you mean funded by in the sense that we’ve helped to equip Iraqi military and police units, and that there is corruption in those units, then yes. However, you seem to be implying that funding=operational support and/or command oversight, and that’s bullshit. In fact, that’s the biggest problem with having set up an independant government. We now have to deal with them on their terms, and it’s been one headache after another.

    “Iraq was the best friend of the United States”

    Never true. They were the enemy of our enemy, and so we supported them for as long as that mutual enmity benefited us. In real life, LTL, the Enemy of your Enemy is NOT your friend, and in this case the adage would have to go “The Enemy of my Enemy is one of my lesser Enemies”.

    As for post-war stabilization..well, it took ten years and 500,000 soldiers (Plus the British and French forces) in West Germany after WWII, and seven years and 340,000 soldiers (plus at least 40,000 from a UK/AUS/NZ/CAN force) in Japan. Both countries with better infrastructure, a much more unified national identity, and previous experience with democracy. If anything, we should be planning to increase troop levels in Iraq, supplementing them with far more professional LE trainers than we are at the moment. And that’s from someone who -hates- government spending.

    Don’t worry, though, that won’t happen because the American people have demonstrated a basic lack of commitment to Iraq. It would be political suicide to argue in favor of anything other than withdrawal, and frankly I don’t believe we -could- put 450,000 more boots on the ground with our current force structure (the military of the late 40s to late 50s was much larger than the military today) even if we wanted to. In essence, Nasrallah and company are right when they assert that today we’re essentially weak-willed, and will give up and run away from any fight that lasts longer than a year or two.

  15. 0
    JQuilty ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @ Blond:

    Yeah, Blago won. I doubt the game issue did anything, the most press I saw it get was a short article in the back of the buisness section of the Chicago Sun-Times.

    He isn’t that bad besides that.

  16. 0
    Mr. Blond ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I voted for Arnold. I know he signed our law and all, but his opponent, Phil Angelides, was also a staunch supporter of it, so there really wasn’t a choice on the issue. On all other issues, Angelides has proven to be a hack.

    Blago won reelection? Damn, I heard he wouldn’t even make it out of the primary.

  17. 0
    Jabrwock ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Last polls show Casey ahead with a 62% to 38% lead

    Ouch, there’s a resounding “no” to Santorum if I ever heard one…

    I was just watching the “best and worst” political ads on msn, and they showed Santorum’s “Oh NOES, TEH TERRORISTS!’ ad…

  18. 0
    BearDogg-X says:

    Also, Brad Henry’s projected to have won re-election in Oklahoma.

    Sonny Perdue’s won Georgia over Mark Taylor as well.

    Hatch leads Pawlenty in Minnesota, but it’s still early.

    Selibus won in Kansas as well.

    Stearns retained his House seat, as did McCollum. Meijas’ losing his race.

    George Allen’s hanging on in Virginia.

    Source: msnbc.com

  19. 0
    longtimelurker says:

    Selibus backed the bill since the legislature is Republican dominated and going against them on that would be nasty for her other initiatives.

    She is considered one of the best governers around. I highly suspect she know the bill was worthless and get rejected but not signing it would have cost her some support.

    Allen and Webb are neck and neck.

    Lieberman won because Republicans funded him and they in turn funded the so called indepedent parties such as the Green Party to sap the Democrats. Without the Republican support Lieberman would have lost big.

    You should see the Republican spin meisters on tv they are in a huge state of denial. Even Bush is in it too but that isn’t a new state for him.

    You have to look at more issues then the video game stuff. Quite a number of democrats are only doing that because the fricking republicans in their state legislatures are wanting it.

  20. 0
    Attack Gypsy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Attack Gypsy here in Connecticut.

    I’ll let you know what happens.

    Personally, I think Lieberman won’t win. This is a democratic state (ok, we have a republican governor, who will get re-elected today), and no independent candidate has won her in over 100 years. And he’s on the LAST line on the ballot. Which means most people won’t see his name. He’s done a good education job on that, but you can never actually counter that.

  21. 0
    longtimelurker says:

    Those annoying campaign calls. Guess what they were funded by the Republicans and are being investigated by the FBI for violations of the do not call list as well as jamming people’s phones.

    The Republicans did a similar thing years ago and people went to jail for it.

    Seems the Republicans are the ones largely trying to stop people from voting.

    http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/07/another-voting-open-thread-because-we-love-your-stories/ has some info on various election problems. Oddly enough the Republicans were behind the voter id laws which do not prevent voter fraud at all but prevent mostly black people from voting.


    We know you’re going to vote for the Democrats, so we’re not letting you in the door, say the election judges in Denver. Read about that at http://www.westword.com/blogs/?p=305

    Even though Allen won by a narrow margin (his racism hurt him by a large margin) his connections to the Robocall scam may get him thrown out of office if the FBI does it’s damn job and throws some Republican officials in the slammer.

    I think Allen won’t be a presidental candiatate. Pity the press didn’t roast him even though there is enough material to light a bonfire five stories high.

  22. 0
    PHOENIXZERO ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Ugh, four more years of Crapholm…

    Did anyone else have the “fill in the broken arrow of your choice” ballots? WTH was that all about?!

  23. 0
    Verbinator ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Another Texan (by choice, not birth), here. Voted early. Kinky Friedman is interesting and popular as a candidate. He won’t take the election. But he does market a darn fine Peach salsa.

    The GP list notes the movers and shakers involved in game legislation, but it’s important to note that in every state where a restrictive, non-constitutional game law passed, a majority of the congresspeople in that state demonstrated their position on games and their lack of understanding of constitutional rights.

  24. 0
    Vinzent ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    As a Californian, I’ll be voting for Arnold. I know we’ve become the brunt of many jokes for electing him in the first place but hear me out.
    Arnie will win this election for the same reason he won the last one. The people running against him are worse.
    Arnie may not always have the best plan, but he spends his time trying to do something. And he openly discusses his plans for California’s future. His opponents like to spend all there time attacking Arnie (or hacking his website for dirt). I haven’t heard a single, genuine idea escape the lips of his opponents.

  25. 0
    Grimm22 says:

    It’s kind of sad, as a gamer, i’m supporting Lieberman

    However, even if Lieberman were to lose to Lamont, i’m almost positive that Lamont would continue the attack against games, with more intense regulations

  26. 0
    Black Manta ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Manta here in Maryland. My girlfriend and I voted earlier this morning. None of the candidates here used video games to try and garner votes, which might be a good thing that they didn’t stoop to such tactics, or bad because we didn’t know where they stood on the issue. I would have especially liked to have known Ben Cardin’s position as well as those of the candidates for Attorney General. Maybe they realized there were more weightier issues than games at stake, and better ways to get votes. As it was, we voted for the candidates who best represented our interests.

  27. 0
    ~the1jeffy says:


    AIDS is worse. No cure. Much like Saddam. But the Coalition (war), painful urination and all, is treatable. Sure it sucks, but Syphilis has a cure. But you can’t stop taking the anti-biotics before it has run it’s full course. Otherwise, the disease mutates, and becomes virulent in new and scary ways.

    Are we talking about STDs or War here? You tell me.

  28. 0
    Jabrwock ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Candidate Dave Mejias (D): sponsor of Nassau County, NY law requiring ratings awareness

    ??? So like forcing retailers to post signs? Or is he advocating government PSAs?

  29. 0
    Benji says:

    I can’t, owing to voter registration issues that I thought were resolved when I renewed my driver’s license. Apparently I’m still registered at my last residence, which is prohibitively difficult to get to. Which is bothersome, though at least MA isn’t home to any of the super-close races.

  30. 0
    gs2005 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Well, I voted absentee a few weeks ago to remove the last minute emotion that comes with the final few days before the elections. While I voted against Schwarzenegger, I happen to live in a different geographic area than the where that idiot Leland Yee runs, so while I’d rather vote against him, I can’t.

    Yes, I DO think he is an idiot, despite the fact that he apparently has a PhD. You can be book smart, common sense stupid-a PhD is not an automatic “you are more insightful than average” credential or anything…

  31. 0
    Shafty says:


    Your change of residence shouldn’t matter. At least here in Florida, you can go to ANY polling place in the state, and if it isn’t your precinct, you’ll be issued a “provisional ballot,” which will then be sent to the supervisor of elections who will verify that you are, in fact, a registered voter. I’m not sure if this is a Florida system, or a national system, but you should have some kind of option there. Call your local supervisor of elections office and see what they say.

  32. 0
    ~the1jeffy says:

    @ Jabr

    Yes, he wants to force signage. Not PSA’s (which are good). It’s questionable from a Constitutioanlity perspective, because legally required speech falls under the same strict scrutiny. (Immediate harm, obscenity, etc etc) And video games are hardly imminent harm/threat, and AO games are not sold in major retail chains.

  33. 0
    Yuki says:

    Long time

    Ask any of the troops who are actually over there what the iraqis thought of saddam. They paint a far different picture. Coming from a miliatry family, and having a personal friend who got back from Iraq alive, the truth is that nearly 90 percent of all iraqi’s are glad saddam is gone

    As for Abu grad, yes, perhaps some bad stuff happened, but most of that is still unsubstaniated and unproven. With saddam, we have proof, years and years of it infact. And just recently, 50 more bodies were found that had been victums of saddams death squads.

    So, if you haven’t been over there, and don’t know anyone who was, kindly do the world a favor and be silent till the facts are fully revealed. Right now, all your doing proving why Dems should not have gotten power back. The next 2 years will determine who is right in government. lets just wait and see what the dems do, and weather or not we have a second 9/11 or perhaps a 9/11 times 10 in the next 2 years.

    Then we’ll know which side was right.

  34. 0
    BearDogg-X says:

    Latest news:

    Pawlenty beat Hatch for MN governor by about 16,000 votes and Jeff Johnson lost his bid for attorney general.

    Source: StarTribune.com

    Thurbert Baker won re-election easy. source: onlineathens.com

    Tom Thull lost by 63 votes. Source: kansas.com

    Julia Boseman won re-election easily as well. source: Raleigh News-Observer, newsobserver.com

    Leland Yee won with 77% of the vote. Source: sfgate.com

    Matheson won re-election, as did Baca. And Perlmutter won election. source: msnbc.com

  35. 0
    longtimelurker says:

    “Err, no, the Lancet Study is politicized, twisted statistics at its worst, and even people AGAINST our current operations in Iraq think so, such as here:”

    Here is the thing numerous people thought the 1000 a month in Baghdad alone was myth. I hate to tell you but the number of Iraqi dead has been drastically underplayed by the United States. Heck the Iraqi goverment doesn’t want the number of dead brought into the morques to be known.

    People are burying their dead in their yards since the morques have either no room or they are unsafe to go to. Cemetaries are being filled in Iraq that were meant to last decades. They have had to open a lot more and like I said that is the known dead.

    The Lancet Study was not political. It’s one of the most accurate ones that can be done in Iraq to determine the number of deaths. Bother to do some research.

    Not every death is reported like i said and the goverment bans casulty figures know. No person in Iraq unless they lived in the green zone or benefited from the occupation would deny the accuracy of the 600,000 figure. Nearly every Iraqi has had a family member killed since the occupation a first or second degree relative.

    “As for post-war stabilization..well, it took ten years and 500,000 soldiers (Plus the British and French forces) in West Germany after WWII, and seven years and 340,000 soldiers (plus at least 40,000 from a UK/AUS/NZ/CAN force) in Japan. Both countries with better infrastructure, a much more unified national identity, and previous experience with democracy”

    How lovely you forget that in both Germany and Japan the occupation forces were welcomed after favorable surrender terms. The Japanese and German people were not brutalized by American troops and law and order were restored by those same troops. Also the occupation like I said was not viewed with hostility in the case of Japan the emperor due to how he was treated in the terms of surrender made sure resistance would be nonexistant. The German people were pretty much battered and the revelations of the concentration camps made resistant also pretty nonexistance.

    Also you had coherent rebuilding plans. The Bush admin had no plan. In fact all plans for rebuilding that would have worked were rejected because guess what they would have required more troops, contracter reliability, oversight etc.
    Also we fubared Afganistan rebuilding that would have built a Democracy and made Al-Qaeda, The Taliban, other Muslim extremcists lose a lot of support and strength. Other Muslim countries after seeing a rebuilt Afganistan would become more Democratic or less hostile to the West.

    Iraq has done nothing but been the most fertile recruitment ground for Muslim Extremists since the time of the Crusades hundreds of years ago.

    “Never true. They were the enemy of our enemy” Wrong our own intelligence and goverment prior to 1991 said Saddam was a friend. Donald Rumsfield has a very famous photographic moment with Saddam back when Rummy had a full head of hair.

    “However, you seem to be implying that funding=operational support and/or command oversight, and that’s bullshit.”

    I suggest you do some research on what happened in South America when the CIA was involved in Anti-Communist activities.

    In jan of 2005 Newsweek reported the following “The Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration’s battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported “nationalist” forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers.”


    Also it is bull that the goverment in Iraq is independent. They were set up by the US. We could get rid of them if we needed. Heck most of the Iraqi goverment intend to hand the country over to Iran when the US leaves.

    Btw the US military has been destroyed by the Bush admin. Reliance on contracters who btw send large amounts of cash to Republican coffers is responible for that.

    We could increase the number of troops to a million in Iraq but the thing is the Iraqi police, military will not be able to restore order for decades.

    The longer we stay there the worse things get. Adding more troops will cause more anger and hatred in the Arabic world. Withdrawing to Afganistan will let us crush the Taliban who are taking over the country there.

    I guess you really haven’t heard how bad things are in Afganistan either.

  36. 0
    PHOENIXZERO ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I haven’t voted yet but I will soon.. I think the choices here in Michigan kind of suck, especially when it comes to Governor. I don’t like Devos but I absolutely despise Granholm. As for other candidates, it’s a whole lotta “meh” but then of course there’s the proposals.

  37. 0
    longtimelurker says:

    “Ask any of the troops who are actually over there what the iraqis thought of saddam. They paint a far different picture. Coming from a miliatry family, and having a personal friend who got back from Iraq alive, the truth is that nearly 90 percent of all iraqi’s are glad saddam is gone”

    Dead wrong. Most Iraqis who when asked outside the Green Zone well tell you things were better off under Saddam.

    Funny how things change when you get translators who are not living in the Green Zone to translate for you.

    Abu Gharib allegations unfounded? You really are naive. Other countries have shown videofootage, pictures also the person who uncovered the scandal as well as other people confirm those allegations. Hell out of a 6000 page report on Abu Gharib abuses 5950 pages are classified. Tell me that should show horrible things beyond belief happened there.

    A lot of people were not punished because under the laws of the Bushco admin contracters are free to kill anybody in Iraq without being punished.

    Trophy vids of American paid mercanaries in Iraq show them killing innocent women and children. These people then trade the videotapes of the killing to get things like pornography or alchol.

    Many GIs from Iraq do confirm horrible things going on namely American troops killing civilians under orders. It’s just like Vietnam. Of course due to body armor and medical advances 90% of the fatalities that would have occured don’t.

    It’s funny how many Iraqis will admit to reporters but not to US troops things that are true. Maybe they are afraid the US troops will shoot them for telling the truth to their faces?

  38. 0
    jdmdsp911 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Already voted here. I’m with you jeffy. Hopefully after all the votes are tallied Santorum will be out of office. I have to work overnight shift tonight and as soon as the votes are tallied, I’ll post the winners of the races we are watching if I can get them.

  39. 0
    Krazywalrus says:

    Well. Crap. Why did Yee have to win?! Heh.
    On the subject that Dems got the house:
    Even though they did get the house, the Republicans might still be able to get the Senate, pretty much negating a majority of the recent Democratic ‘plan’ (read: anti-republican).

    Of course, this will be useful ammuntion for them in the next 2 years. The Republicans are really going to have to appeal to the middle class a lot more VERY soon if they expect to maintain any sort of majority in 2008, which probably involves pulling out the troops very soon, and most frightening of all, leading a stronger attack on what ‘hurts the children’.

    Even if my statement was based on conjecture:
    God Help Us. Lol.

  40. 0
    Chuma ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Oh I should also add that your assertion that things were “better” under Saddam is foolhardy.

    There have been more deaths and the infrastructure has been bombed to hell and back. There is potential for civil war as well as insergents taking controls of large sectors of the country.

    On the counter point, people are no longer being sentenced to death by being dipped in acid for protesting against Saddam. One guy interview by the BBC had some horrific scaring after he ‘wrote a phone number on a banknote with the face of Saddam on it’. He was ‘taken pity on and only dipped in acid and released, rather than killed’ ONLY??? That sort of repression and inhuman acts are just the tip of the iceberg. If YOU bothered to do some research you would see exactly the sorts of day to day repression of women, threats of death or violence to non-conformity and prevention of freedom of speech the Iraqi people had to deal with.

    Has the coalition been a success? fuck no. Shoudl it have gone ahead? Not in my opinion, no and certainly not for the reasons we were originally given. Do I think the occupation is worse than rule under Saddam… I’ll use the old chestnut…

    “Which is worse? Aids or Syphilis?”

  41. 0
    17-A says:

    I’m glad to see Maine’s not on the list either… Olympia Snowe has a pretty good voting record in the Senate despite being a Republican, and none of the gubernatorial candidates are proposing anti-game legislation as part of their platform. Probably because we have bigger problems here, but….
    I’d love to see Schwarzenegger and Lieberman lose their re-election bids, but I’m not certain if either will happen. I’d also love to see the Republicans lose the majority in the Senate but I’m certain that WON’T happen. At this point, I’m just mostly glad that the annoying political ads will be gone from my TV starting tomorrow.

  42. 0
    Chuma ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Longtimelurker said:

    “Bother to do some research Chuma the Iraqis will tell you now that a 100 years of Saddam are better then one year of what they have now thanks to his removeal.”

    And if you bothered to actually read my comments you will have seen the paragraph where I said,

    “Iraq was a mistake. Period. Yes Saddam Hussein is a Tyrrant and yes the world is better off for him being gone, but we can’t just go around getting rid of anyone we don’t approve of.”

    I even went into details as to the real reasons why the war was fought. Quite why you think you are making a point counter to my own is beyond me. Way to preach to the converted and antagonise at the same time…

  43. 0
    Kad_Serlann' says:

    Mike hatch is conceding right now. Pawlenty barely pulled ahead. A lot of people were angry at him for cutting funding to a lot of programs to cover the state’s debt left from former Governor Jesse Ventura. However, he did succeed in turning a surplus for the state of Minnesota without raising taxes. Otherwise, a lot of state house and senate seats were turned over to the DFL party. Either way, I’ld expect within the next four years too see bills addressing gay marraige, smoking bans, violent video games, and every other issues that our state has been slow on. Lets hope that they don’t freeze up the government like last summer.

  44. 0
    lordknightshade says:

    While this is most certainly the story of the day I’m slightly bothered that Dennis hasn’t posted anything about the annual kick-off of Child’s Play this year. We seem to focus so much on the negative and horrible impact of sensationalist media BS that it seems we’re missing our chance to tout the great things gamers can do and the good will we generate. Pardon the thread hi-jack but I’d love to see one of the most popular and well-read gaming+politics site on the net skip out on the chance to promote gamer-goodness.

  45. 0
    Terminator44 says:

    @dog welder

    I heard about that a while back from another comment (not sure if it was you or somebody else). So I did some research, and I couldn’t find anything on Chabot related to video games. Not only that, but I couldn’t find anything through Wikipedia or a broad Google search that mentioned anything about game legislation talk in Ohio. My guess is that you heard wrong, or if games legislation really was mentioned, it was mentioned in only the briefest of afterthoughts. Therefore, I don’t consider that worth taking into consideration (and neither does GP aprrantly) because I couldn’t find any confirmation or even the slightest mention about game legislation in Ohio proposed seriously by any candidate.

  46. 0
    dog_welder ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    The problem is I’ve only seen the last part of that ad once. It either never ran again or was in a low rotation. Frankly, the Chabot/Cranley race has gotten nasty so I think the video game issue, if ever there was one in that contest, got pushed to the backburner pretty quickly. Here’s a hilariously bad attack ad:


    (I love the bit about tasering 7-year-olds.)

    This isn’t my district, but I have to listen to the ads.

    I was trying to watch Sunday Night Football to cheer on my Patriots this past Sunday night, and every ad was either a vicious attack ad OR one of those damn Chevy-John Mellencamp “This Is Our Country” ads. By the end of the first quarter, I was sick of freedom.

  47. 0
    ffalcon says:

    In Michigan, we really are voting for the lesser of two evils. Although not old enough to vote, I would have to go with DeVos. Our state’s economy has gone in the can (primarly because of a heavy reliance on the fledgling automotive industry). That “…and in five years, you’ll be blown away!” line is a real riot. I also cannot support anyone who wastes taxpayer money by signing into law a bill she knows will get blocked on the basis of unconstitutionality. (refering to her failed attempt to legislate video games)

    As for the other races, I hope Lieberman does not win. The two headed monster created by he and Hilary must go.

  48. 0
    Brer says:


    I voted, although I’ll be surprised if my POV carries the day on any of the issues on the ballot, let -alone- the candidates.


    Excuse me? You’re pulling your analysis of that Westword story out of thin air. It talks about bad logistics at a voting site in Denver, and there are no indications either in the article or in the larger context that party politics have anything to do with it. Next time read the article before you link it.

    As for the allegations of voter intimidation, time will tell. You might want to broaden your reading, though, since you make it sound like this is a Republican activity, rather than a standard practice of both Republicans and Democrats, although the most -recent- tidbit of interest is the indictment of some workers from ACORN on charges of voter fraud:

    One study covering allegations and incidents of fraud and/or tampering by both parties in 2004:


    The ACORN workers story:


  49. 0
    Chuma ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    I’ll take this point by point.

    1. Unemployment figures are not in question here. This is indeed a good thing as long as the jobs themselves mean the workers are above the poverty line. I would like to see for myself is this is the case with some actual links rather than taking your word for it.

    2. The figures you plucked out of thin air. Can you provide a link to substantiate them and then show the earnings of each of those brackets compared to the tax paid? You will find that they don’t correspond.

    The upper 10% you say pay 40% of the taxes. Assuming this is true and you haven’t just made this up or made a rough approximation from things you have read, how much of the total Income are they earning? If it is greater than 40% then they aren’t paying their fair share. Statistics can be manipulated to suit any needs, which is why the term was coined “Theres, Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics”, quite a famous quote.

    Infact, earnings in the highest paid bracket are hidden behind shares, property and such. Basically there are outs to place your money with which the tax man cannot touch it, and these are incentives to what I coined as the upper 1%.

    This is not unique to the US, but if you are so party biased that you have to start slinging insults around then there is very little hope, which brings me neatly to point 3…

    3. “Typical liberal BULLSHIT!” “if you belive the liberal media over here, your(sic) a retard”

    These sorta of Ad Hominen attack are the same ones you freak out upon whenever Jack makes them. How about a bit of consistancy and a little less hostility when someone offers an alternative viewpoint to your own?

    As for propaganda, the Republicans have an entire news channel devoted to it; Fox News.

    Your insults have lost any respect I have for you and if you cannot accept my points without spouting out that sort of hostile attack, and you actually believe the Republicans are incapable of lieing whilst everything the Democrats is to be treated as biased… Frankly you remind me of the Sony/Nintendo/Xbox fanboys; incapable of coherrent or rational thought.

    If you had actually bothered to read what I said instead of reacting in a typically childish manner, you’d have seen that the Labour Party (A traditional Socialist and Liberal party) in power in the UK where I am based at the moment are shown in the same light as the Republicans are in the US. Blinkers off please…

    4. As for your comments on the UN, well basically the US didn’t play ball with the UN. If they did then they would have realised that Iraq did not have Weapons of Mass Destruction. Do you remember that? That was the original reason for going into Iraq, which somewhere along the lines got lost in all the shit and spin that was batted about. The UN was undermined between the US and the UK. The UN does need updating, but if you are seriously suggesting that the US should go it alone in all decision making of World affairs… I don’t think I have words for just how bad an idea that is.

    5. Iraq.

    I’ll start with the point about the UN and WMDs. Over in the UK there was the famous ’45 minutes to launch WMDs’ Dossier which has been subsequently torn to shreads and ruled as misleading. I’m not sure what the intentions of the War were, all I know is that 9/11 was predominantly committed by Saudi Nationals and what was the first thing that happened in the US? The airports were all closed down except for *1* flight and that was the flight to get the Bin Laden Family off US Soil, the biggest provider of oil to your country, rather than questioning and releasing them. Why wasn’t Saudi Arabia taken to task? Draw your own conclusions.

    Iraq was a mistake. Period. Yes Saddam Hussein is a Tyrrant and yes the world is better off for him being gone, but we can’t just go around getting rid of anyone we don’t approve of. When France helped liberate the US from English Rule in the War of Independance, it was done so after the US citizens started an uprising and they helped re-enforce the position. Thats the way to do these sorts of things. You help, you don’t dictate a position. Some peoples just aren’t ready for such a big change. And that is my position on the Middle East; we should watch and wait and help when needed, but never step over the mark to enforcing our own morality and political ideals.

    Now you can pin me as liberal if you wish, frankly I don’t care (though I will say that my views range from very liberal with regards to security measures, healthcare, abortion, etc to very conservative with regards to Justice, Capital Punishment, etc). However if you want to debate with me in a reasoned fashion then stay away from insulting remarks, stop with the strawman arguments and try to be a little less hostile. Believe it or not, we can have opposite opinions and share them without resorting to calling people retards, something I can assure you I am not.

  50. 0
    BearDogg-X says:

    From msnbc.com:

    Maria Cantwell beat McGavick.

    Hatch and Pawlenty are tied 46% apiece, though Hatch has more votes.

    The Govenator easily won as well.

  51. 0
    Brokenscope ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    People shouldn’t fear there governments.

    People also shouldn’t fear there Christmas/holiday bonus which might push them into a higher tax bracket.

    Yes, that was pushing it but I’m really tired.

  52. 0
    Terminator44 says:

    @dog welder

    Wow, just…wow.

    Suddenly I’m glad I live in a small town. At least our local officials (yes, they are up for election as well) have more sense than to use negative campainging.

    On the plus side, I came across this music video while sifting through related vids that describes this whole election year perfectly.


  53. 0
    Nuiembre ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I’m so glad I live in Quebec, Canada. No politician here ever wasted time and taxpayer money on video game issues. In fact, the only bad news that have been reported here concerning video games are about “Columbine Massacre RPG” (the shooter of the Dawson College shooting played it) and of course “Bully” but that was a ridiculous news story from a single news channel. One that will leap at the chance to report anything “scandalous”. even if they didnt have the facts yet.

  54. 0
    PanicButton42 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I have to agree with Vinzent about Arnie in California. As a matter of fact, the first ad I saw come from the Angelides camp was not something that addressed the issues here in California, but attacked Arnold on the fact that he is a Bush supporter. Now I will admit Bush has been less than an inspiring leader and all, and I know it is fashionable to hate on Bush, but something is wrong with your campaign when your opening salvo for getting your message across is attacking a candidate based on the fact that he supports party lines which means he is a Bush supporter.

    Arnie has not necessarily been bad, and while I don’t agree with him on Leland Yee’s bill and a few other things he has tried to do, he has genuinely tried to dig California out of the hole that was dug for us by the last two Governors (One Republican, one Democrat).

  55. 0
    ffalcon says:

    All politicians have money though. You have to remember he runs Amway. What has Granholm done right? Wasted tax dollars on video game law It makes me sick.

  56. 0
    Kadamon says:

    Not to bring a big bash on your party guys…but why bring Iraq to this website, seriously.

    Oh, and remember, the US put him in power, rode him up on a tank, you musn’t forget that.

    As for your president and that entire spiel. Like Father like Son.

    Now back to something this place is based on…

  57. 0
    jccalhoun ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Don’t forget that in IN district 9, the Republican party has been heavilly running commercials stating that Baron Hill, the Democratic candidate voted against videogame censorship. While that doesn’t indicatte the Hill is for the ESRB or that the Republican candidate, Sodrel, is for censorship, it is worth noting that the nrcc.org has made it an issue.

  58. 0
    ~the1jeffy says:

    Well, I voted at 7 AM this morning. Being from PA, I only have sway in one of those races. Hopefully we Pennsylvanians will wake up tommorow with a new Senator-elect.

    Mini Poll: Who at GP voted? (I am NOT asking for your decision, just if you voted)

  59. 0
    Yuki says:


    Since you want to go point by point, thats fine. AS for links, I”ll see if I can dig them up for ya and send them your way. Most of the info I got was from paper media, mainly finance reports, but I’m fairly sure I can find them online.

    1. last reports that I had seen, and admittedly, this was just about 3 months ago, showed unemployment at a near 30 year low, with the majority of new jobs landing right about 25 grand give or take. SOme lower, some higher. All in all, it’s not world shaking but at the same time, no, it’s not poverty either. While there is still room for improvment, it’s a fair cry from the massive jump in unemployment that happened in the clinton years. Only reason clinton had no deficent was cause he cut the defense budget to shreds to save money, among other things. And look what that got us, The Uss cole, 3 embassy bombings, maybe more. I have to check news archives for that, and the first attack on the world trade. Great work huh? While people love to tout the clinton deficent reduction, he did it by raising taxes, cutting defense, and using tax money to smoke screen poor economic activity. But thats niether here nor there anymore.

    2. The tax numbers came not from me, but from the most Recent IRS tax bracket audit. I’ll grab a link as soon as I can find it again. That being said, there are of course factual issues in it and some discrepinces, but for the most part, those numbers were accurate. While addmittedly, the upper 1 percent are able to shield a great deal of money, they still paid the highest tax rate of any tax bracket in the country. As you said they, it doesn’t affect them as much cause they can afford it.

    3. Thats not the point. But then again, it’s my fault for not explaining. You mistakenly assume I was refering to you. I was refering to the media. Don’t even bother with the “Faux news” stuff pal, your out of your league. Hows this for a list.


    Gee, thats what, Four networks that are actively LIberal Vs 1 Station that is activly conseritive, not to mention hundreds of local stations around the country. Dont’ start the “Right wing propganda” wagon buddy, I got a list of Left wing lies and slander 30 miles long.

    You are however, right about this. REp are in no way innocent. Which is why I didn’t vote straight Rep in my local elections. I have some serous hangups with the Republican party. I’m niether straight Conservitive nore Liberal. I fall in the middle in many respects. But when you break it down, the media, by an overwhelming percent, is heavily, and consistantly biased on the Left wing fringe. So, go ahead and say what you will, but the Reps are nothing compared to the Dems when it comes to smears,lies, distortion, and misreporting. You may not like what I said about the media, but don’t dare tell me I’m wrong when better then 80 percent of the tv media is Left wing.

    4. You didn’t read did you? I didn’t say the usa should “Go it alone”, I said the us should either have the UN disbanded, and work on it’s own with other countries without the oversight of the UN, or should drop it’s funding from the un and let it fend for itself. A few months on it’s own, the UN would come crawling to the us cause without the us, it has no resources, no money, and not nearly enough military power to stand against countries like China and North korea. Like it or not, one of the biggies mistakes of all time was the UN forcing Israel into a cease fire when they could have wiped one of the most pervasive and well established terror groups off the map and possibly defeated a dictator who, like saddam, seeks nuclear weapons for, in his own words “The utter destruction of israel”. Yeah, the UN does a great job of bowing to terrorists and letting them run rampant. Sorry, but I will not, ever, back down on this. You can disagree, but might I suggest you look back of the last 30 years and remember where listening to the UN got america? From my memory, that would be NOWHERE! I say lets disband the UN, then the usa and uk can work on there own to establish relationships with other nations at there discretion, not be forced to acknowledge terrorist nations because of the UN’s Weakness. Thats how I feel, and that isn’t changing.

    5. Iraq

    Now on this, you make some damn good points, and some of the ones I’ve had the biggest issue with in terms of the Reps. Your right about the “War for Oil” arguments. Theres some major truth there and I have some major hangups with that. Always have always will. Second, yes, attacking first probably wasn’t the right way to help Iraq become a democracy, but it’s also true that they didn’t have many options. Saddam was murdering hundreds of thousands every year to keep an uprising from happening. In fact, there was a new report yesterday morning that 50 bodies had been found, all murdered by saddams forces while he was in power. With that level of oppression, it’s likely that any desenting Iraqi’s would have been dead long before enough of them could organize a resistance. So while going in first and then building up the infrastructre second wasn’t the best plan, it was the fastest way to prevert further blood shed by saddam and take his foreces of the streets.

    Lastly, I don’t pin you as a liberal, I was pointing out how your statment match nearly 100 percent to those of the liberal media, many of which have been proven wrong. You can belive what you want, but I live here, I see it, I research it, and I have to deal with the results of it. So I ask that before you go making claims, you take your own advice and consider the source first. The reps are angels, hell, some of them are bold faces liars and scumbags. But when you compare them to DEMS? Shit, they seem like pope john paul by comparison. Thats just my opinon of course, and your free to disagree. In fact, I encourage you to do your own research, and draw your own conclusions. AS you said, your not a retard, and I see that clearly from your response, which was both articulate and to the point. but don’t assume I’ve not done my research. I live here, I don’t have a choice, I have to know this stuff, cause I have to live with the results of it.

    On last note, I’m not religous, and therefore did not make the Pope referance with any religous intentions, I’m simply saying that there is that big a difference in the actions between the 2 parties. Least, from what i’ve seen and researched.

    anyway, I have to go chuma, hope to have some more civil discourse with you now that I’ve calmed down.

  60. 0
    Bissel ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Yeah… Amway. About that…

    Devos was never willing to actually say what his positions were, and just point fingers. I’ve never liked him, though… “Oooo, I almost revitalized downtown Grand Rapids and got a building named after me!”

  61. 0
    Yuki says:

    Ok, how bout we see some of these ? I’d be interested in seeing some of this stuff since, last time I checked, Iv’e not seen word one in the news about troops killing civis “under orders”. Strange how you’d think that’d be big news durning the recent election eh?

    Sorry lurk, I call bs till I can see the evidance myself. You dont’ have to take my word for it if you don’t want, but unlike you ,I know acutally troops who were in Iraq. I’ve spoken to field commanders. My dad is Ex military and has contacts in the army still.

    You know what they call your “alligations” ? Bullshit!!

    Abu grad probaly has some wrong doing, they agree to that, but beyond that, theres no proof of any wide spread illegal action by either Contractors or troops, green zone or not. While some troops have commited actions outside of there orders, for which they will be punsihed, no one, in the admin or on the field, ever ordered the killing of civis, and I trust the word of the troops over yours any day.

    hate to stamp a label on you lurk, but, you sound like nothing more then a Liberal drum beater.

    Far as i’m concerned, Liberals are as much responible for the problems in iraq as anyone. After all, dozens of Democratic leaders voted and supported the war when it started then turned tail and ran when it didn’t go as planned.

    But then again, you’ll probably ignore that fact since it doesn’t fit your Agenda!

  62. 0
    Bissel ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Yep… Voting for Granholm. Obviously not because I like the whole video game legislation thing (although maybe she’s learned her lesson…) but I like her better than slimebucket Devos… Something about another rich boy who rode daddy’s coat tails to a political office that sets my teeth on edge…

    Really wish Fred would be voted out. Sadly, given that part of the state, there’s a better chance of me being struck by a meteor right now.

  63. 0
    ZippyDSMlee says:

    Yes and no,vote 3rd party when you can just to send the message,BTW IND is not 3rd party,if there is no choice pick the lesser evil,really there should be a default for non of the above if it gets more than 5% of votes the whole thing will have to be done over…but no…lets keep things quick and painfully corrupt…

  64. 0
    ZippyDSMlee says:

    GOd I hope Bob(Banny hen) Corker dose not win…as stupid and pointless Ford and Bredison ,another “proper” business man that managed to make money off buying and selling land when he was mayor making millions off it of coarse…….Tennessee dose not need another Corrupt business man in office…

  65. 0
    longtimelurker says:

    “Saddam was murdering hundreds of thousands every year to keep an uprising from happening.”

    Uh no. In fact Saddam in under 30 years killed far less Iraqs then the United States has in the three years since the invasion.

    A well researched study whose critics have not been able to debunk it by doing their own research shows that over half a million Iraqis have been killed by violence since the occupation.

    A quarter of that half a million are those killed by coalition forces with the vast majority being done by the United States. Over half of the dead killed by coalition forces are children under the age of ten.

    The United States in a study mentioned by the Christian Science Monitor said that over 30 innocent Iraqis were killed by coalition forces for every insurgent and that figure was in 2003. It looks like several hundred innocent Iraqis may be killed trying to kill an insurgent now.

    The Death Squads in Iraq that were funded by the United States as well as trained have taking over many hospitals, morques with the purpose of murdering Sunnis who come to collect the bodies of dead relatives or seek medical care.

    Bother to do some research Chuma the Iraqis will tell you now that a 100 years of Saddam are better then one year of what they have now thanks to his removeal. The Christian Iraqis were safe under Saddam there were half a million of them now there are very few since they are being slaughtered by Muslims. Under Saddam there was no street crime, people had electricity, medical care, schooling. Women went to college, now in Iraq women are getting killed for not wearing headscarves, men are killed for wearing shorts.

    Iraq was the best friend of the United States. Funny how the United States didn’t object to what Saddam was doing which was no different then dozens of other countries around the world at the time and today.

    Btw those Iraqi police we are training our own damn soldiers will tell it will take decades for them to police the country. Same with the army. Btw those Iraqis often attack the American forces or refuse to fight the Insurgents. American troops have often seen the police give orders to not fire on the insurgents or join the insurgents on firing on them. The American instructors are in fact afraid of being killed by the trainees. The American instructors are always in full combat gear and guarded by other American troops when they are instructing the Iraqis.

  66. 0
    Bigman-K ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I can’t believe Blagobitch won. Illinios voters must be absolute morons. He’s by far the most corrupt, idiotic Governor ever in the history of U.S. politics. Lieberman winning sucks to.

  67. 0
    Chuma ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    *smiles* Nice to see we can both recover and finish on a civil note :)

    I appreciate the response, Yuki.

    I will accept your points on the Clinton Administration, I will just point out that at some point the National Debt which I referred to eariler HAS to be paid back or it will spiral. This will no doubt be done after Bush has left office as frankly he does not care a damn with only 2 years left. Today the Republicans lost the House of Representatives which they have held for the last 6 years. This means that budgets and spending that have gone through without any problems will no longer be able to do so. Hopefully in the next 2 years some of the financial damage that goes unseen can be repaired before the next President is elected. Billions of Dollars have to be paid back and these can only come from Tax increases or reduction of breaks, and the upper 10% are the ones most equipped to assist with this. Thats pretty much what I was getting at anyhow.

    I will concur that some of the media you highlighted will give a more Democrat related approach, though some I don’t see. However just because I highlighted Fox News doesn’t mean there aren’t other Republican News channels out there. I happen to think that a lot of the fear enducing titles and such are the result of a Republican agenda, but thats a seperate discussion.

    One thing we can definately agree on is to approach the media with a reserved scepticism and research for facts. However, often the facts we search for have been filtered from Congress/Government and you have to look beyond the spin placed upon them even then.

    I find the comments on Israel the only disturbing thing in all you have said. I find the quote “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter” quite appropriate. There’s really no justification in the deaths of Palestinian civilians be they women and children or men. However, conversely, suicide bombings in Israel are equally vile and inhuman. Sadly we in the west have to take part of the blame for the unstable situation as after WWII we pretty much gave land to Israel that was currently in posession of Palestinians and the subsequent disruption has ended in the constant war we see on our screens today.

    Theres no easy answers to this one and somewhere along the lines there has to be a willingness to compromise. I hold out hope though. It wasn’t too long ago the IRA was planting bombs in the UK killing innocents. These days Sinn Fein are a Genuine Political Party no longer affiliated with terrorists (I go by recent reports by those proposing reinstating the Irish Parliment). People can change for the better. I hope it happens there too.

    Finally, don’t worry. I am not a religious man. I also do not rule out the existance of God, I just don’t believe in the organised religions which have had Man’s hand in translations and agenda.

    Once again, thanks for this reply, it was heartening. Will converse with you again on the subject in the future :)

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