This is exactly why I choose to base my logic on non-religious arguments that cannot be refuted by religious counter points. You guys could go on all day about this, but in the end I think you'll both agree on one thing:

Yes, there is the "why risk it" idea. But the only risk involved is for people with unhealthy minds, and if it isn't video games then it will be something else anyway so it is not specifically the games that did it. Even an unhealthy mind has to make that choice to act or not to act, but in the unhealthy mind there is a certain impairment of judgement that frequently leads to poor decisions or outright strange ones.

You totally missed the point of what I just said, you just looked at something and disagreed with it even though I said that it was from what his belief system was.

If you want to flaunt atheism, do it somewhere else. I explained what the priest said and why he was totally justified in what he said.

"Why risk it?"

Because I am responsible for my own actions, and I refuse to allow myself (and others) the piss-poor excuse of, "The devil (or [insert vice here]) made me do it."

Good shepard or no, I am not a sheep, so there is no risk in being "led astray."

I can see what this guy is getting at. The Church is just as strict about the viewing or interacting with any type of media, not just games. It does piss me off that one guy would single out games, as if sex/violence/drug use/etc. didn't even exist in movies, TV, books, the Internet, etc. But it has always been doctrine that just merely viewing such media, and deriving pleasure from it, constitutes a sin.

"...sad state... blah blah... common sense... yada yada... compulsion that we attempt to act on."

Yeah, sounds like standard religious rambling. It's funny that everytime I hear a homily, I feel a need to debate everything the priest says in my mind. And I usually end up only agreeing with maybe 10% of what he says. It makes me wonder sometimes that what a priest is saying is not what he actually means. I think it may be due to huge difference in perspective. Spending every day of your adult life in contemplation, prayer, and worship, I'd imagine, tends to make you introspect a lot more than consider the 'average guy' perspective. I may have gotten a little off topic, but my point is that you can't always analyse to the smallest detail what a priest says. They are only human.

And this is exactly why I have such a big problem with religion in general and Christianity in particular, and why I abandoned it. They use a
combination of ignorance, fear and superstition to condemn anything they don't even remotely understand and don't even try. Their logic
is and has always been, "If it's new and strange and we don't understand it or it doesn't fit in with our beliefs, then it must be evil!"

It goes all the way back to the middle ages (That the author points to medieval writings does not surprise me, as they've been mired in that mindset for almost that long), when they condemned Galileo when he discovered the Earth was not the center of the universe, and Columbus for asserting the world was not flat. Intelligent Design and oppostion to Stem Cell research are just the latest in a long parade of ignorance. You want the biggest stumbling block on the road
to a more enlightened society and better quality of life? Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Christianity.

It is a sad state in this society that plain old common sense has disappeared. To put it simply, we act on what we see, hear and are taught, and by what our imaginations can create.

So... thinking for myself is a bad thing? Or am I somehow reading this wrong?

@G-R-G-2

I love that Simpsons quote, and I too thought of it while reading this story.

It's actually St. Hesychius.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1894

And let's not forget the Inquisitions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

Oh yeah, religious leaders during that time really knew about "sin".

nightwng2000
NW2K Software

"We need to protect the minds of ourselves and our youth from the violence in the world and portrayed in video games."

It always bothers me when anyone thinks the way to live is to isolate yourself from the world. Especially when the person advocating this is a representative of a religion that seems to think it's entitled to make real-world decisions that effect everyone (stem cell research, gay marriage....). They can't have it both ways.

"St. Hesycios the Priest (3rd Cen.?) stated: …we and the demons combine in committing sins. The demons work through evil thoughts alone by forming in the intellect what fanciful pictures they wish… Thus what we conceive in the mind, if acted upon, becomes sin."

The key phrase being "if acted upon." Surely, if a person plays GTA and goes off and murders someone, there's a sin there. If you did a lot of the things you can do in GTA in real life, you'd be committing sin (and a crime). But you can't deny the fact that over 20 million people own this game and, by the "pure evil" logic a lot of critics use, we should all be dead.

"plain old common sense"
DO you REALLY...and I mean REALLY want to go there?common sense dictats males should not have free will because they are violent and prone to hurting others...common sense dictats that condoms are needed in school to keep kids from getting knocked up because you cant protect them from life 24/7...common sense dictats religion is evil because of the wars and greed it creates...common sense dictats using common sense as a shield is BS...its just common sense .....................

Hold on

*Goes reads bible*

*Has anal sex, Adultry, Incest, beastiality and goes on a killing spree nailing people to crosses*

If I went by their logic of "Monkey see, monkey do" reading the bible has got to be worst thing a kid can ever do in his life time.

It's so funny when priests and similars show up their "enlightened" opinions about stuff they don't know anything about... offering a counter-point to the priest, it has been proved thar religious fanaticism leads to violence (happens a lot, just look at history books or the news). So, using the same logic, we should ban all religions.

Bizzo, if he REALLY meant such a thing, he doesn't know it. It's too much credit for someone who truly believes that everything is a sin.

Speaking of sin, the approach that the christian religion gives is that no matter what you do, you are doing something wrong, and you're going to hell because of it. Here's a nice pardody on this subject: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/72146

I loved that quote from the Simpsons.

"Thus what we conceive in the mind, if acted upon, becomes sin. If we see violence, and do not dismiss it immediately, it then becomes a compulsion that we attempt to act on.

"We need to protect the minds of ourselves and our youth from the violence in the world and portrayed in video games. The killings, the blood and guts portrayed, will affect the minds and eventually cause us to act in a similar way."

I was twelve when 9/11 happened. I watched the news coverage on it most of the day. I can't say I've ever felt an urge to fly an airplane into the nearest tall building. Probably because I "dismissed it immediately," which - surprise, surprise - any intelligent person will do with video games. Most people are capable of keeping their real life and their entertainments separate. About the only thing he's right about is that children shouldn't be playing violent, graphic video games (some kids can handle it, but I'm not going to get into that), but he seems to also be saying that NOBODY should be playing them.

People like this make me ashamed to call myself a Christian.

That's just sad... *Lowers head in shame*

@Bigman-K

"O.K people, this is one priest saying what he thinks, this isn’t an edict by the Pope or a message from Jesus Christ himself so stop with the fuckin’ Christian bashing. If some atheist came out and bitched about video games being bad and causing violence we wouldn’t be bashing all atheists now would we."

Atheists don't follow a system of organized beliefs. So an atheist calling something 'sinful' just won't happen. The term 'sin' carries with it the weight of the christian morality, which has historical connotations, political connotations, and carries with it a stigma of 'wrongness' that is vastly different than an individual simply saying, " I think video games cause violence," or, "I am agaisnt video games."

First, show me an atheist that is against video games. Second, recognize that a priest carries infinitely more weight behind his words than any atheist, no matter what obscure, particular sect of christianity (This case - Eastern Orthodox - is hardly obscure, but that isn't central to my point). Third, if an atheist came out an "bashed video games," as you put it, I (and most others here) would most definitely be "bashing" that person, if their opinion was based on specious, mis-translated, mis-information from a by-gone age. Or, even if the person was just trusting the so-called 'studies.' Or, even if it was simply their personal opinion.

I will state that quite often a person from the anti-christian crowd over-generalizes all christians. And when I see that, I take that particular person's view with a critical eye.

@black manta

don't blame him, he's too stupid and arrogant for his own good. the majority of christians are humble, which is what they are SUPPOSED to be.

I am a Roman Catholic video gamer. I have played many violent video games and I'm very proud of it. There isn't a virtual kill that I'm not proud of and I have never even thrown a punch at anyone in real life or even thought about it. I don't have violent fantasies and I have taken a ton of crititisim from my mom who says these games and violent films I like to watch are bad. This theory makes me sick!! I have never hurt anyone despite the fact that my body count in violent video games is well over twenty thousand, probably. This theory is pure nonsense and it contains not a thread of truth. I love violent media of all kinds and I don't have anything against it. It is good and probably even saves lives. It helps people to take out their anger and decreases violence in the real world. I love the Catholic Church, but I will never believe that theory because every time I put down my controller, I leave my aggressive killing ideas behind in the game. They don't come back into the real world with me. I have never fantasized about killing any real person or doing any harm, of any kind, to a real person. I never hurt anyone and now I would like to point my reasoning out. Why is killing wrong in the real world according to the Catholic Church? It is wrong because you are destroying a person's chance to do more good deeds and get a higher place in Heaven and Jesus died on the cross for that person. Now let me ask you anti-game Christians this. Do computer animated characters have souls? Do they do good deeds to get to Heaven? Did Jesus die for electronic characters generated by computer code? The answer is, of course, no, so there is nothing wrong with playing M rated games that depict extreme levels of violence because you aren't destroying part of God's creation and you aren't taking a real life and you aren't destroying something with a soul. It isn't real and it doesn't turn good people into psychopathic killers. That theory is flat out wrong. I long for the day when people, especially in D.C., understand this and stop their attacks against an innocent industry that has never hurt anyone. People who play violent video games and then commit crimes are crazy and would do it anyway.

Thank You,
A Concerned Video Gamer

Any time I go into discussions like this, I like to avoid the religious aspects and go directly into the logic so that I can avoid any religiously biased counter-arguments, and hopefully I'll find logic that can't even be refuted on religious grounds. I think I'll try that now. I'll start with a quote and then comment on it. One last note, I think the fact that I am a devout Catholic should be known so people know what background I'm coming from, but I should also note that, in my opinion, most people who call themselves "Catholics" are really not Catholics. That involves being true to God (and therefore to his creations), not just going to church every weekend and then otherwise being a bigot or a snob or something. Now that you have some background and opinion, I think you know enough to decide whether what I say is credible or not.


It is a sad state in this society that plain old common sense has disappeared

I agree, common sense is scarce these days. I see examples of this every day. Let's look up the definition of common sense, shall we? According to dictionary.com, common sense is sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge, training, or the like; normal native intelligence. So, what common sense is this man arguing is lacking? To sum up, he claims that everybody fails to realize we learn from experience. His idea is that if we experience evil, we will become evil. I disagree with that and I also would like to argue that whether or not we know about us learning from experience is irrelevant. Going for an extreme example, if you experience your house being robbed at gunpoint, you just gained some knowledge. If a person has even a slightly healthy mind, they will realize that GUN = BAD and STEALING = BAD. I could go on, but let's move to another quote.


Thus what we conceive in the mind, if acted upon, becomes sin.

My first problem is that he does not specify that only evil thoughts can manifest sin, but that can be interpreted as simply me being picky about grammar. More importantly, I would like to say that this is entirely right. Doing things that you know are bad is definitely bad. However, this does not apply to video games either. We know for a fact that playing GTA will not kill anybody, will not rob them of their possessions, or any other evil acts in the game. As soon as the game is turned off, the world you just robbed from disappears, and nobody is harmed. There is no evil in simulating such events. Let's apply something more applicable to myself and see how I fare against this arguement. I like this particular game series called "Thief" which you might have heard of. Obviously criminal intent will be involved, somewhat of a similar nature to what a D&D rogue might do. One thing you can do is pick locks. I was influenced by this, no doubt. I have a set of picks which I use as a hobby only with consent or on my own locks, and I have developed useful skills in case the worst happens. However, I have no intention of ever breaking into a room I was not given permission to enter. I have even developed an interest in security in general and hope that I can make a living from it. All in all, I would say that playing that game has influenced me very positively. Let's move on to another quote.


We need to protect the minds of ourselves and our youth from the violence in the world and portrayed in video games.

Protect them from what? Evil? Isolation might work. Evil will exist around a person no matter what. It is up to parents to tell a child what is right and what is not (and also to get that information right themselves so they can give a good example), and it is up to that child to obey what they have learned and know what's okay and what's not. Attempting to remove the ambient evil in the world is not the answer, it won't happen. All in all, it is up to each individual to lead a life of goodness on his own to the best of his ability, despite the bad happening around him. If a man plays video games, that does not seem to contradict a life of goodness to me. The contradiction occurs when we carry that into the real world, and I hardly see that happening so the only answer is that those who do have sick minds (like, literally sick as in a disease). Assuming you have a healthy mind (not the same as being intelligent) you are safe from your video games.

So if I conceive a (unarguably) fanciful picture in my mind of a world of peace, food and health for everyone, and decide to work towards that, it's sin? That's just utter bull.

@x(wai)x
You know what they say, don't let religion spoil your faith.


I'll accept video games as sin the day priests stop touching children.

Seek God out and nothing else. Ignorance is not God's will, nor is zealotry. Christianity as it was intended has nothing to do with this.