Alright Popie. First get the bible and it's extremely graphic and mentally degenerating content far away from children.

Which we know will never happen.

@ Brokenscope

I'm sorry, dude, I missed it where you said that Benny is German. I call him Benidict, not Benny, I guess that's where I got confused. I'm not sure that this isn't a connect the dots situation. A crazy guy shoots a lot of people and then kills himself and that starts a chain reaction that gets the pope talking against all violent media. I know it's not just video games, but I'm sure that's the main one. I respect the Catholic Church, but I have absolutely no respect for those comments. Calling us perverts is a mile over the line. I hate his comments in the worst way and I hope that, in the future, he thinks before he speaks. He needs to watch his mouth because that was a generalized comment saying that we're perverts and I take personal offense at those comments.

"Today, the Pope expressed his disapproval of sex and violence in the media. Here's Tom with the Weather."

"Hey Bob, well, we're expecting some rain this evening which means that there will probably be water falling from the sky, and according to our experts here at channel five that water will most likely be wet. In our extended forecast, the sun is expected to rise in the east tomorrow..."

Y'know, I was content about staying on the sidelines and reading this through, but a few comments got me riled up, specifically on religion and the "Church's sin". I'll note that like others, I'm not big on organized religion either (I was Christian at one point), but I still can't let them slide.

First, the Crusades. Yes, we get organized religion was responsible for that, thank you. And we know that the Church made a lot of bloodshed, but c'mon people, that was a loooong time ago, and things change. The Catholic Church is corrupted, but last I checked they're not ordering Holy Wars or Inquisitions even on people that lead "sinful lives". By the logic some are following, then why not also hold the states of South Carolina, North Carolina Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas and Tennessee in contempt for seceding from the Union and for allowing things like slavery and genocide? Or better yet, why not condemn the British for all the crimes they committed in the name of their Empire (including the aforementioned slavery and genocide), which despite being long past was still more recent than the Crusades? Because they've changed over time, and the same people that made those crimes are certainly no longer alive. Same goes for the Church, which despite its corruption and hypocricy, certainly not the same Church that tried to take over Jerusalem. If you want to use an example of religious crimes against humanity, use the Islamic insurgents, at least they're current (even if like the Pope on Catholics they don't represent the whole of Islam).

Second, someone stated that the first thing people see when they enter a church is gold. That cracked me up, really. My family's religious, which means I've been to different churches of many denominations, and rarely do I see anything beyond paintings depicting Christ and such or banners. The idea that all churches are decorated like Russia's Amber Room is generalistic and in some cases insulting, and even if a few have rich furnishings and such (not many of the modern day churches have them), you can't generalize all churches as "gaudy".

As far as the Pope's statement goes, big deal. As has been stated, he has enough skeletons in his closet (and probably a few altar boys), and it's not like he can actually enforce his statements. I'd pay more attention to our own respective governments cracking down on the media, not some religious figurehead that has as much control over human lives as Queen Elizabeth II (by that I mean aside from followers, he has none). Now if there were some Catholics in government that thought the Pope's word was gold and would enforce it, then I'd see it as a problem.

One side note - Some might get confused by my statement on the British Empire and "aforementioned" slavery and genocide. I didn't mean they were involved with the Confederacy's crimes, I meant they did similar things.

@~the1jeffy

"That movie glorifies the beating, torture, and eventual crucifixion of Jesus."

Gotta disagree with you there. I find a difference between glorifying it, and simply overdoing it in the name of pushing a message. The message I believe the Catholic church is endorsing is that Jesus went through hell on earth for you, so buck up and be grateful damnit! ;)

Personally I didn't like the movie, but more for the fact that the sheer volume of violence desensitized me to it by the end of the movie. I didn't really feel any empathy at the end, because I'd use it all up during the torture scenes.

I took the Pope's message to be calling out not those games that contain violence, but rather "exalt" (glorify) it. He's repulsed by media that glorify violence for violence's sake, that glorify anti-social behavior, and glorify the trivialization of human sexuality (presumably referring to the prostitutes). It certainly gives a lot of leeway for media that is violent, yet don't trivialize it. Perhaps those where violence is shown to have consequences, or penalties, for example.

Some of you folks need to do some research with regard to Benidict's knowledge and handling of the sexual abuse crisis in the U.S., catholic dogma in general, logical falacies, and reading comprehension before commenting on the writing of one of the most educated men in any position of authority anywhere in the world.

"which in the name of entertainment exalt violence and portray anti-social behaviour or the trivialization of human sexuality"

Nowhere in this statement is there a call for a ban on violent/sexual media. It is media which "exalts" violence or "trivializes sexuality." By way of example, IMHO the game Postal 2 exalts violence (there is no theme being presented here), while GTA San Andreas does not (it is a social satire and commentary on violence). The Pope is smarter than you. And me.

@ Brokenscope

Dude, the shooting has everything to do with this. Don't you remember that two months ago there was a thread on this site talking about the eighteen year old that went crazy and shot 37 people? Do you also remember that there were threads after that talking about Germany making anti-game laws? It's all conntected to the shooting that happened in November in Germany. All through the holiday season there were entries on this site talking about how politicians in Germany were getting tougher on video games because of that shooting. You don't remember that?

Don't you know that the pope is German and probably agrees with the politicians in his home country? The shooting has everything to do with this. It was a German version of Columbine except that the shooter was the only one killed. The 37 people he shot were only hurt. Go back and look at all the entries about Germany's tougher video game laws because the shooter played Half-Life Counter Strike. The pope's statements have everything to do with the shooting. It's all linked to that one event. It has set off a chain reaction that is all but banning violent video games in Germany. You don't know that?

Quite frankly, I don't care.

Let the diehard Catholics believe I'm perverted for the entertainment I choose. Maybe I am. It's certainly among the least of my perversions, though.

This isn't the first time a Pope has condemned things I like, and it won't be the last. The fact is, the Pope has no authority over me, so I don't care what he decrees. It's not like congress has said I'm not allowed to do these things.

@Arion

Misguided article? Are you referring to GPs coverage? Commenters here being hypocrits? Where?

You want hypocrisy? Look no further than raining judgements from a golden chair about media, "which in the name of entertainment exalt violence and portray anti-social behaviour." All the while the Church's official position on Mel Gibson's, "Passion," is one of acceptance - even as far as endorsing viewing of it in Catholic High Schools (read: adolescents). That movie glorifies the beating, torture, and eventual crucifixion of Jesus. And it does so without any form of mediating prespective - it's only about the violence, and not about the reason for said violence. Hell, even GTA has some shallow 'reason' for its violence. The 'Passion' does not. Hypocrisy defined.

I won't go into the child abuse in the Church, others have done so, perhaps blowing it out of proportion, I'll admit. But it happens, and the the Churches handling of it reeks of: "Under the rug with you."

Perhaps, as AM mentioned, the Pope was calling out all violent, sexual media as perverse, and not just the marketing of it to kids as I originally thought. I admit that that part wasn't clear to me. But that is even worse. I'm an adult. Forgive me if I am offended by the Pope calling me 'perverse' for supporting the production of violent and/or sexual media by consuming it. Forgive me for calling out hypocrisy where I see it. Forgive me, but I don't follow the teachings of Holy Mother Church to the letter, and being called out as contributing to the decline of the common good, not upholding the truth, not protecting individual human dignity nor promoting respect for the needs of the family kind of pisses me off.

It wouldn't bother me if it was one 80 year old virgin telling me how to live my life. I can ignore that. But every time the Pope, old or new, opens his mouth, millions of blind sheep eat it up without a second thought. And those people I have to deal with daily. And I really get tired of people telling me I live I sinful life. Sue me, I play violent video games, I watch violent movies, and I fornicate as often as possible. Oh, and I'm not married yet, but my fiancee lives in my apartment. But sinful old me gets to watch blatant hypocrisy from on high, as well as from the people around me, but I get called out for it because I refuse to pretend I practice mainstream religious beliefs. And when I open my mouth to point out these facts, I am the one being a hypocrit.

If my views offend you, print them out and take them to your pastor/reverend/preacher. I'm sure that person has a nice bag of religious balm to sooth the sores of independant thought.

@Brokenscope

"The Pope represents Catholics on a good day. He does NOT represent the views of all of Christianity."

Exactly. He doesn't even represent all Catholics, EVEN on a good day. His group is ROMAN Catholics. He certainly doesn't represent eastern or oriental orthodox Catholics...

O.o but children really DON'T need to play such games. Also the pope HAS to say stuff like that right? What's the big deal? As soon as someone starts saying that violent games are bad, people get so riled up and start hissing like angry cats. Not like I know much about popedom, but isn't it part of his job to state his views on morality?

@AM

“video games are evil.”

So are reality shows. :p

"I don’t think you’d make the same argument that he’s speaking out against the economic pressure if he were decrying Playboy by name."

I would if he worded it the way he did. By implicating the economic pressures, among other things, he's spreading equal blame to the industry, the consumer, the parents, and the education system that children are raised in.

"what I see here is still just a (somewhat) tactful, 'video games are evil.'"

I don't quite see it that way, (the video games are evil part, he was quite tactful), I think he was focusing more on a specific content of media (the ones portraying violence and anti-social behavior), mostly for the example they set.

@Jabrwock:

I really can't read it that way at all. I read that the trend in media toward violence is the perversion, and if that's so, then the components of that trend (of which games are one) are part of that perversion. I don't think you'd make the same argument that he's speaking out against the economic pressure if he were decrying Playboy by name. That said, I do agree that he's calling for economic weight to go in the other direction, to remove incentive for the media.

Maybe my view is colored by my upbringing, which was a fairly fundamental Protestant one, however what I see here is still just a (somewhat) tactful, "video games are evil."

I don’t think the Catholic Church is qualified to make judgements on morality, not simply because of past transgressions, but because “morality” differs from person to person. One man saying a thing is wrong does not make it so.

I beg to differ on a minor piece here. Morality is absolute, however one's conception of morality is subjective. If one man thinks that a particular subject is wrong, I agree that it does not change how right or wrong it is. However, it is not more wrong for one person, otherwise a great many more things could be gotten away with. At the very least, even if I'm wrong, belief in an absolute morality is why society works.

This all relates to this article because it means that the Pope's conception of media violence does not change its state. Further, media violence is not more sinful for certain people than for others. In the end, we have to choose on our own experiences what media is wrong and what media isn't. This is probably not the opinion of your average Catholic, but as a Catholic myself I can say with regret that IMHO our religion is not so much about worshipping God anymore so much as following doctrine mandated by a clergy that tells us what God is like. It is unfortunate, and I keep the denomination "Catholic" only because the parts that do not comprise Catholic "Tradition" seem correct to me, so I still agree with the core beliefs but not with the method of enacting them.

“Educating children to be discriminating…”
I want to be surprised by this, but I can’t be.

Why not? It's not as if he meant it as in "discriminating against blacks" or something of the sort. The word "discriminating" has another definition, which is more fitting for this context. From dictionary.com:
showing or indicating careful judgment and discernment especially in matters of taste

Ooops... The first paragraph and the fourth are quotes, sorry!

@Jabrwock

your words ring true. I am just so disturbed by people here using the misguided article as an opportunity to attack the religon. Certain people here should some maturity before coming off as total hyprocrits (judging and generalizing in retaliation for judging and generalizing).

@AM

"The Pope, surely, is not to blame for this, but a message from his denomination, which has continually struggled with its own perversion, seems out of line."

As a leader, it's his job to set the stage. Perhaps if he had been the one turning a blind eye to the scandal, then yes, I would completely agree that it would be hypocritical of him to criticize others. But seeing as he has come down on both his own congregation as well, then I don't see a conflict.

Red Hot Catholic Love is the episode. So the Pope is just saying to watch out for violent games you get for your kids thats all?

Does anybody have the audio from Tuesdays Utah House discussion? I thought I'd be clever and lazy by downloading it then listening when I had time, but apparently they only link to live discussions, "of which there is none at this time" the file tells me.

Thanks in advance.

@Timothy

http://gamepolitics.com/2007/01/24/utah-committee-hearing-audio/

Well.... It's a GERMAN pope. Anyone suprised?

Glad I broke from the Catholicism for years ago. Now I know that Catholics today are just a bunch of Hypocrites, as if the "God" himself promote Hypocrisy.

@ Jabrwock

I'm not sure where you're seeing "Stop blaming the industry."

From the article:

"Any trend to produce programmes and products - including animated films and video games - which in the name of entertainment exalt violence and portray anti-social behaviour or the trivialization of human sexuality is a perversion..."

He's flat out calling the production of violent and anti-socially themed games a perversion. That's a great many games where he's blaming the industry, and given that he calls "Any trend to produce" games that fall into those categories a perversion, it doesn't read like he wants M rated games out of the hands of minors ("tell the industry to be mindful" as you put it), so much as out of existence. He went on to say "all the more so," when related to minors, but it can't be "more so" unless he's already calling it a perversion regardless of context.

I absolutely do agree and applaud his call for parents to be of primary importance in all this.

Maybe the pope and the catholic church as a whole should be concentrating it's efforst on ousting child abusing priests instead of protecting them silencing th victims and sending these erverts off to anotherplace to do it all over again.

Maybe they could also apologise to the thusands of young girls held in the magdelene laundries against thier will despite having commitedno crime as well while they're at it.

Then and only then can he pass comment on fictional pieces of entertainment

@ZombieHunter

Havent you've ever seen South Park?! Touching boys is essential!! :p :p :p

Who can guess the episode of South Park?

The.....the POPE?!!

I can't believe such a high political leader is saying statements that usually come out of misinformed, career-boosting politicians. I never thought my religion (not that I'm devout or anything) would conflict with my love of video games.

Considering he covers all media, and specifically omits 'The Government', I'm not against what he says to be honest.

In fairness, he does slip the phrase 'The Church' into his comments on who should be educating your children, but that's purely a matter of choice, there are very few places in the US, at least, where attending church is compulsory, and let's face it, if the Pope can't suggest the Church as somewhere to go, then who can? ;)

@Althrun: I agree with him that parents need to take responsibility, absolutely. However, he's NOT saying that the overall responsibility is solely with the parents.

"Any trend to produce programmes and products - including animated films and video games - which in the name of entertainment exalt violence and portray anti-social behaviour or the trivialization of human sexuality is a perversion..."

He went on to say all the more so when directed at children and adolescents. Which means as far as he's concerned, violent/anti-social games are a "perversion," regardless of whether or not they're aimed at children. Children just makes it "more so," in his message.

He wasn't after just games; the people who pointed out that he's hounding all media are correct, but he's not saying "M rated games/R rated movies aren't for kids." He's implying pretty clearly they're not for anyone. That's a message I'd expect the church (any Christian denomination) to deliver, to be honest, but it does just boil down to another "violent games are evil" message.

nightwng2000
""
Educating children to be discriminating in their use of the media is a responsibility of parents, Church, and school. "

at least say t all,for once he dosent say something mind numbingly stupid,if you can understand what he means then let me ad lib,hes saying parents church and schools should try and limit the mind expanding content kids can get so they dont grow up funny.


of coarse its not that simple but at least hes trying thats better than the Gods rottwiler retuine he normally dose.

uhg...morning....let me try and reexplain my point,hes saying the community around children should actively guide kids into some form of sane adulthood.

With all the scandal in the Catholic church over abusive clergymen (and yes, I realize it's a very small minority compared to the whole, but looking in terms of numbers rather than percent, there have been quite a few), it seems this attention is directed the wrong way. I have no problem with his message. I have a problem with it coming from the Catholic church at this time.

Matthew 7:3-7:5: "And why do you look at the splinter in your brother's eye, and not notice the beam which is in your own eye? Or how say to your brother, 'Allow me to take the splinter out of your eye,' while the beam is in your own eye? Hypocrite, first take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."

There have been cases where priests have been found to be guilty of some pretty perverse things. The Pope, surely, is not to blame for this, but a message from his denomination, which has continually struggled with its own perversion, seems out of line.

@the1jeffy

"7 x 70, eh? I would ask that you refrain rebuking me with Biblical cant whenever possible."

My comment was certainly not intended to issue any kind of rebuke. I was simply directly answering a direct question. I apologize for any misunderstanding here.

"Infinte forgiveness is not humanly possible. Ever. And so, there will inevitably be cases of hatred for people who choose to live their life apart from Catholic teachings."

Not humanly possible, no. But the Catholic church's position is that it is possible with God's help through the Holy Spirit. There will inevitably be cases of human failure in any arena. You may disagree with it but the church's position is consistent.

"The outcry from Muslim leaders shows just how easily misinterpreted his comments were."

Again, I'm sure you will disagree here, but I believe that many Muslim leaders are actively searching for things to take offense at.

"You have to be blind, however, to ignore the obvious Christian vs. Muslim parallel between the modern conflict in the Middle East, and the Crusades."

I make a very clear distinction between Christian and Catholic. They do not equal each other. So I feel my objection stands. How is the Catholic church responsible for the modern conflict in the Middle East?

"I can’t think of any other example of a 2,000 year old organization that is responsible for, either directly (Inquisition, Crudades), or indirectly (slave trade, holocaust) responsible for such bloodshed, and still comes out with such a moral high-horse, and deigns to pass judgement on humanity as a whole."

Wait, now the Catholic church is _responsible_ for the holocaust? Even with the qualifier indirectly I can't see this argument. But the church has admitted its failings for all the things you mention. This does not excuse any of the terrible things that have been done in the name of Catholocism, but by acknowledging the mistakes of the past, the church improves the chances that the same mistakes will not be made again. The church explicitly does not pass judgement. When people pass judgement they are in the wrong. Always. Also, asking for an example of another 2000 year old organization is a bit of a side step from what I was saying. I could make the same side step by asking you for examples of 2000 year old organizations who are responsible for less bloodshed than the Catholic church.

"Why doesn’t the Vatican stick to fixing/judging the faults and hypocrisies of its own members first?"

Why can't the Vatican condem sin within the church and outside the church at the same time?

"Then it is you you needs to get to visting more Catholic churches. Almost invariably the Sacristi (spelling?) is gold leaf trim, and many are leaf-plated. And take one gander at the Vatican - pimped to the x-treme. I see less bling on hip-hop artists. Not a great example of poverty, chastity and service, huh?"

But you are taking my response out of context. I was responding to the assertion "take a walk into ANY church and the first thing you'll notice is gold." I then listed some examples of what I notice when entering a church. I conceded that there are some small features inside Catholic churches that are gold leaf, but my point is that the overwhelming majority of surfaces inside the overwhelming majority of churches is not gold. The debate about whether the Vatican is too extravagant would be an interesting one, but it is hardly representative of an average Catholic church anywhere in the world.

Also I'd like to say that I am taking great pleasure in this debate.

@ Daniel
"I have emailed the Vatican and begged the Pope not to blame violent video games for the actions of that mad man."

I think I missed something. Which madman are you talking about?

@ jer
I worry that not many people bothered to read the message. It's really quite tame. Reasonable, even. It's a call for people to look after their children and ensure they are raised in a way that instills in them an appreciation for life, beauty, and all things good. My own initial reaction now seems unnecessarily belligerent, to be honest.

For those that missed it, take note of the following paragraph:

"Media education should be positive. Children exposed to what is aesthetically and morally excellent are helped to develop appreciation, prudence and the skills of discernment. Here it is important to recognize the fundamental value of parents’ example and the benefits of introducing young people to children's classics in literature, to the fine arts and to uplifting music. While popular literature will always have its place in culture, the temptation to sensationalize should not be passively accepted in places of learning. Beauty, a kind of mirror of the divine, inspires and vivifies young hearts and minds, while ugliness and coarseness have a depressing impact on attitudes and behaviour."

"Educating children to be discriminating in their use of the media is a responsibility of parents, Church, and school."

At least he mentioned parents first....

Otherwise, high and mighty words from an organization that has such a fine history of deception, bigotry, and misogyny.

But then again, its the job of any so called 'moral authority' to butt in where they aren't needed.

youre right korrd,
many people (at least initially) just go off the brief mention of what GP writes. without bothering about checking sources.

My main input here was just to explain the position of the catholic church (as i understood it) in hopes of just a small bit of education goes through to some people.

Why do you have so much hate Yuki? You are over reacting.

I'll make this quick.

Dear Pope.

Bite me hypocrite boy. Religion is responsible for some of the most violent and bloody events in human history. Dont get all high and mighty now when your own churchs past is in many ways violent and despicible.

Thank you, and while your at it, shut up and do something useful.

@~the1jeffy

"I will admit I fail to see the difference here. I’ve yet to see any meaningful difference between the two coming from the crowd that condems one and uses the other for it’s benefit."

Sorry, I worded it badly. I meant "Promotion of the USE of violent imagery to provoke excitement in the viewer != glorifying the violent act itself."

For example, violence in horror films isn't used because it gets you excited about killing/maiming, or makes it seem cool or fun. Instead, it's used to get you excited/scared about the perceived threat of violence, (ie the fight or flight).

So you get "addicted" to the "feeling scared/relieved", rather than relishing the violent act itself. You relish the way your body reacts to being scared/threatened/disgusted all in one swoop, followed by relief.

I liken it to adrenalin junkies. As long as you get that blood-pumping euphoria, it rarely matters what caused it.

So rather than making Jesus getting whipped "cool", they instead use Jesus getting whipped to freak you out. End result is essentially the same (you get excited), but the connection to the act may not be the same (rather than leaving feeling you need to whip people, you would rather they just threaten to whip YOU)...

Biggest issue here IMO is that the pope, regardless of his IQ is in a position of great power. His words hold great value in the minds of a large group of people in the world. I grew up catholic but left the religion for reasons that are my own. I agree that people can and should follow their own moral compass and that there is no "goal" in getting to or being accepted into heaven (be it real). I just live my life trying to be a good person. I don't need the pope to lead me in that life but some people do and I respect that. If I am outta line here please enlighten me toward the views you believe in. Understanding and willingness to learn and respect all is in my beliefe a path to enlightenment.

@Snakestream

umm about the books part. The catholic church have been banning books for like ever.

@ Snakestream
I agree completely. When reading through the comments here I was particularly annoyed by people who criticized the worship of an "imaginary god" and such. That kind of contribution is completely unnecessary and counterproductive.

Ah, but Jabr, what video games, or any media for that matter, use violence, just to make it seem cool - and of that small number, how many of them are popular, or let alone are 'aimed at adolescents?' I would venture that this remainder is either none, or so small as to be written off as a result of infinite human possibility.

Last i heard those priest were excommunicated.