It's so scary that it sounds exactly like whats going on today.

Just replace music with Video games and it's the exact same agurment.

Triple post for the lose.

"I want people to see my points and I guess I’m afraid that if I don’t do things with a lot of emphasis, people won’t see how badly I hate anti-game activists and how much I love violent video games."

^Jack Thompson. Right there. RIGHT THERE.

@Daniel

I agree with Bigman. This is going to sting a bit but you're like the Jack Thompson of the gaming community with regards to your actions.

@Nem

Whatever, dude. In heated debates it's easy to loose yourself momentarily, especially when it's a topic that you're passionate about. What proves to everyone that you're not the degenerate low-life JT thinks all gamers are is the fact that you had the balls to swallow your pride and apologize. This puts you on such a higher ground than Thompson, because we all know he'd never apologize to the gaming community for slander, libel, and stereotyping all of us.

I don't recall him ever apologizing to the charity PA donated to in place of him, nor apologizing to millions of human beings for telling them that they're all drug addicts and should kill themselves.

Just don't commit sepuku to regain your family honour- We need you here =P

I missed the word "do" near the end of the second paragraph.

That's going to keep me up all night.

@Namer

Truth is namer, you showed a lot more control then i would have, I'd have rushed the stage and beat him to a pulp. I've hated the man for a long time. Only one other human being has ever generated that much hate in me, and it's the man who ran over my friend ashly in high school

@ Korrd and Bigman-K

I guess you're right, I do sometimes get carried away and try to add a lot of emphasis to what I'm trying to say. I want people to see my points and I guess I'm afraid that if I don't do things with a lot of emphasis, people won't see how badly I hate anti-game activists and how much I love violent video games. I'm afraid that no one will know that very well unless I add a lot of emphasis. I guess I could try to tone it down. However, it does look to me that sometimes hayabusa75, Brokenscope, and others on this site do think that violent video games cause violence. It just seems that way sometimes.

@ Bigman-K

What do you mean by change? I like you too. You are a fellow gamer and a fellow enemy of Jack Thompson, but if by change you mean say that violent video games sometimes cause violence and are responsible for deaths, I can't do that. I came to this website because I wanted to defend the violent video games that I love to play. Why is it that some of you here think that Jack Thompson is somewhat right?

As for whether or not they can influence mentally disturbed people, that's ridiculous because people who have violent fantasies, don't need to learn how to be violent. These games don't teach people how to be violent and kill. There is a big difference between picking up a controller and killing some computer animated characters and picking up a real gun and killing real people. Another thing I can't do is say that these games are not appropriate for young people. I played them for many years before I came of legal age and I would be a hypocrite if I said that.

I think that violent video games are appropriate for everybody because that's what I've always believed. I don't think there should be age restrictions because age has nothing to do with it. I don't believe that violent video games have ever, or will ever, encourage people to kill. They have never killed anyone and the gamers who killed, would've done it anyway with or without the games and no game is guilty of anything.

If by change you mean acknowledge that sometimes these games lead to violence and death, that I cannot ever do. I would be a lying hypocrite if I said that and I never will ever. I know that these games are innocent of everything and shouldn't be blamed. Please tell me what you mean by change.

@namrepus
You shouldn't feel too bad, because from what you say, I think you had some valid points. I won't know until I see some video or a transcription of what happened, but I am sure it wasn't as bad as you think it was. Thompson is just really good at pissing people off. I know that if I were in a debate with the guy, I would be tempted to yell or curse at him, but that is why I am not a public debater. Just relax and see how this plays out. JT is a two-faced snake, and you should beat yourself up just because he ticked you off. Just learn from this encounter, and the next time this situation comes up, handle it with grace, poise, and intelligence.

@ Bigman-K and Brocenscope

That would be like mixing vinegar with baking soda. We're on the opposite side of the issue. On the issue, I am the absolute 100% opposite of Jack Thompson. It would be crazy if we got into a conversation. I get angry whenever I hear anyone attack violent video games and I think that Jack Thompson has the same thing go on in his head when someone defends them. It wouldn't surprise me. We're the exact opposite.

Problem is Namrepus, this is exactly the sort of trap that JT sets, that's why we see 2 different Jack Thompsons, the one who claims he only wants to stop children from playing games they are not ready to deal with the content of, and the JT as displayed on here, who treats us like Drug dealers hanging around outside a school trying to corrupt the children and who writes laws which, despite his claims of wanting to give parents choice, gave them no choice whatsoever.

Don't worry too much about it, just think of Jack parading around a courtroom, of all places, waving a placard whilst being held in contempt.

Jack missed his chance to debate like an adult a long time ago, in many ways he is only recieving what he has given, he's just too dumb to realise it.

@Namrepus221

Don't worry. I probably would have done the same thing and like you regreted it afterwards. Jack has that way with people. BTW, can you imagine what hell would break lose if Daniel was there. S**t would be crazy. HAA!

@shadow-breaker

I'm sick of it too, i thought you guys always said that the esrb should be used to help parents decide what games to buy not as the single and only factor. Wouldn't a good responsible parent decide for herself whether their child for each individual game? (and wouldn't they also realise that they don't have a rating for every age so a 14 year old might be able to get a M game). Ironic that you ask for parents to take responsibility and be good parents and yet making their own judgements about appropiateness somehow doesn't fit this definition (which is even more ironic because there are two ways a parent can figure out the appropiateness of a game without their own judgement, the esrb or the government and the news odds are some of them are going to pick the latter)

Korrd.

I dont' know if I will be able to even look at the footage for quite some time myself as I am still coping with what I did and the ramifications it will have on me and my friends.

Needless to say, "it'll be up, when it's up" is an accurate timeframe to see the video.

Zappa was an interesting man. A very interesting musician as well.

Now i have to find that vinyl.

Yes it was an open forum near the end.

I've just ruined friendships and such with this "outburst" that I doubt that ever will recover. I've quit a possion in a club I am in because of this already because most of my friends who were in attendance were ashamed to have known me and what I did and I do not want to be arround them until this "blows over" so to speak.

I was fighting a very bad flu as well, making my speak sound hoarse as well as a little angry as I tried to speak and be heard.

I've heard people tell me "don't worry, it's in the past" already...but the damage has been done regardless.

In regards to apologizing to Jack, I did it because it was the right thing to do. I told him that if my grandmother had been alive she would be ashamed of me for what I did and that apologizing would atleast help. Hopefully he accepted the apology sincerely and was not just trying to "save face".

@Namrepus211
i with korrd on knowing how the whole event went down before placing any major comments.
was it an open forum where audience members were allowed to ask questions?

Well the debate went without incident…untill I spoke…

I asked why Jack called gamers worse than Nazi’s, Skinheads, and others…why he said someone should go play a suicide simulator and get really good at it…

unfortunately… I attempted to interupt him several times, very unprofessionally…

After he changed the subject arround on me a few times I became disgusted and turned my back and gave him the finger…

I’m ashamed to call myself a gamer right now…I really am. That I attempted to confront him about how he treated individuals like gamers, and in the end became the confirming factor.

After the debate was over I did approach Mr. Thompson and offered my apologies for doing something like that the way I did… Luckily he accepted them. unfortunately this will be written about in the newspaper and other news sources, will be on video on television here…

I’m really sorry guys… I really am…I’ve failed you all

I have never seen this video before. This IS very similar to today's legislations.

@ the above posters:
I can see why you would be angry at underage kids yelling profanity during online play, but, as others have stated, there are those that are underage but act more mature during these games.
I myself am underage to buy M games, but I find that the violence, language, or drug references in them don't affect me. To pass a bill to prohibit any underage kid to have an M game is unfair to those that can deal with the content with understanding that it's just fantasy.

I didn't know that Jack Thompson is a fan of Frank Zappa, but wait! Don't be fooled by that statement, I think Jack Thompson is trying to think of a plan to exterminate the gaming world.

But my thoughts are, Jack Thompson's words are definetly not true and cannot be trusted. Trying to hide his wrongdoings and pretending to be innocent by saying that he is a Frank Zappa fan, for shame.

A good majority of the people on here should stop stereotyping kids/teenagers as being loud, annoying little punks who feel the need to curse constantly. Were not all like that. Actually, a good precentage of us aren't like that. When I'm on live, about 95% of the time my headset isn't even on because of the constant trash talking from people who sound well over the age of someone who can purchase a Mature rated game.

Another thing I want to touch on is how alot of you find the need to say every parent who buys a mature rated game for their kid who isnt 17 is lazy and irresponsible. As an example, my parents have been buying me mature rated games for years and years because they understand I love video games and they also understand everything anti-game politicans and activists say is a lie or an uninformed statement (they were kids when comic books were under attack and when Elvis was thought to be doing the work of the devil, so being the intelligent people they are, they saw history repeat itself).

To end this though since I don't want to trail off into a rant, to sum up what I have been saying all this time, many kids and teenagers who are under 17, play video games that aren't recommended for our age, and we always will. I also understand my comments really didn't have anything to do with the subject of this news post, but since so many people found it right to turn the comments into a bash of kids, I felt it neccesary to get this off my chest.

@ Daniel
The story was about music.

Damn video games being equated with porn. hmm makes you wonder about some movies then like American Pie, Eyes Wide Shut, Secretary, Arabian Nights, Advocate, Bliss, Two girls and a guy, Yu tu mama tabian, Poison, Orgasmo, etc.

"We have to stop thinking about their civil rights and start thinking about their mental development" (or something like this)

What the hell? This sounds a lot like what they're trying to pull on us now, and the last time I checked, this was still America, the land of EQUAL opportunity. So what, do you magically turn into an upstanding citizen the day you turn 18 and before that you're just a stupid, little monkey? Frank Zappa is awesome in this video (I think I have a new hero) and he really shoves it to the Maryland delegates. One point I think he should have said was that the bill essentially says that ALL sex is "illicit." Makes me wonder if those delegates have children, because if they did, then by their own messed up standards they are criminals.

"This [rock and roll] is the worst form of child abuse out there..."

Um...I wonder if some kid out there whose parents are whipping his ass and beating him half to death because they're out of booze would think that that is better than listening to rock and roll. Essentially, this is what the bills that JT and some of the states are trying to say. Politicians need to learn to actually shut the hell up and think about what they are trying to say before they actually open up their mouths and say dumb stuff like this.

This video really irritates me in how politicians have learned shit in 20 years. We need another Frank Zappa to go out there and publicly refute the false words of the dumb politicians who seek to persecute the gaming community the way all arts have been throughout the years. "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it." We already have many precedents before us, the book burnings in China, the destruction of so many sculptures and paintings throughout history, the criticisms and censorship of the film industry, and the censorship of the music industry. We don't need another media format to be censored by the idiotic masses who believe anything the government spits at them. We have to speak out against the people who attack games before they actually manage to get lucky enough to pass one. If they pass something, it will set a precedent against the game industry, but apparently, no matter how many times the game industry wins, no precedent will ever be set for them.

@kurisu7885

Yes, Dee Snyder was the frontman for Twisted Sister, which the PMRC made one of its poster boys as to why there needed to be censorship. Snyder was very articulate, Zappa was combative, and Denver is the one that swayed everyone as to why the PMRC was so wrong.

@rammsoldat, kurisu, and others

"there was an american kid hurling abuse at me on gears of war the other day and i kept thinking to myself “how has he gotten a M rated game”. "

Well, since we don't know the kid, I don't think either of us will ever find out. However, the most likely explaination is that his parents bought it for them, as is the case for most minors who own M-rated games. These stats from the ESA's website seems to confirm this:

"Ninety-three percent of people who make the actual purchase of computer games and 83% of people who make the actual purchase of video games are 18 years of age or older. The average age of the game buyer is 40 years old."



Considering that, I don't think the example you cited makes a very good case for outlawing the sale of M-rated games to minors. The parents will likely buy the games for their children anyway, either out of laziness or a lack of understanding of the games rating system. As has been said over and over again, education, not legislation, is the key to helping parents decide which games are and are not appropiate for THEIR children.

Now, rammsoldat, if the "penalty on retailers" you want entails a voluntary set of guidlines for the retail industry, I'd be okay with that (thought it would probably never work, considering how competitive retailers are these days). But if you're talking about getting the government and the force of law involved, then that won't fly in the U.S., as you can tell from the string of defeats that such bills have suffered. This is because these laws violate the 1st Amendment, which does apply to minors, as established by the courts in the famous Indianapolis bill. I don't want the government regulating content just to shut up one or two trolls on Live.

And that brings me to Iliad's point: What the eff does the behavior of certain 12-year-olds on Live have to do with game legislation? I know it's an issue that affects many of us, and one we like the complain about. Really, though, what would any of this legislation BS do to deter them? As I pointed out above, it's not these kids getting the games, it's their parents. Besides, for every one 12-year old punk I have to deal with on XBL, I've had to deal with five who sound in their late teens or early adulthood ;).

@Brett Schenker

Wasn't Dee Snyder once the frontman of Twisted sister?

'This is the worst kind of Child abuse that our media are knowingly selling to our youths, we should ban Rock Music!'

You know, I only have to change two words in that sentence and 20 years cease to exist....

If you ever get a chance watch the PMRC hearings with Dee Snyder, Zappa, and John Denver. Snyder is rather articulate which suprises the Senators, but Zappa is his usual brilliant self. Denver though wins the day for free speach when he stands on the side of artists, completely catching the Senators off guard. Great and fascinating to watch.

rammsoldat Says: "there was an american kid hurling abuse at me on gears of war the other day and i kept thinking to myself “how has he gotten a M rated game”.

I go through the same thing every time on XBL. if im playing splinter cell I always run into some twelve year old british kid, thinking its fair that hes spy every round and mercs are overpowered and have to have mines/frags/every vision/charge/ spin turned off, and.. my god if it isnt the most horrible screeching sound ive ever heard in my life.

But it has nothing to do with the retailers, its the parents buying the games for the kids, as soon as they pass a law that makes it a felony to sell an M+ rated game to minors, (which is a stupid idea.. its not worth such a ridiculous punishment as they want to dish out for it)
then they have grounds to pass the games as porn acts, and the game stores cannot be within so and so number of feet of a school acts, and who knows what else.

@ Dennis, Korrd, and Yoshiko

Dennis, I know you told me not to post anymore until I got the email address thing straightened out, but I have to respond to these comments. I have emailed you and told you that I honestly don't know what's going on with my email address and the people at ebay always contact me there when I buy something. It doesn't make sense. However, please let me respond to these comments.

Yes, I have been outside and seen many things, Korrd, and I think that video games are more beautiful than that. Especially games like Far Cry and Scarface for XBOX. In the real world, almost no conversations I get into anymore turn to video games. However, on this site, that's the topic and I feel very strongly about that. By extremist, I mean that I absolutely don't believe that they cause violence. I would never ever do anything crazy or violent because then I'd be betraying my own cause. I'm not a violent extremist. I'm a nonviolent extremist.

When I write with a lot of emphasis, it doesn't mean that I'm crazy and mad all the time. It means that I'm very one sided on this issue and that I blieve very strongly in what I'm saying. The problem is you can't see my face when I'm writing this stuff. However, it does piss me off when people say that violent video games cause violence. However, I'm not in rage mode when I write this stuff. I know it looks that way and I can see how I have given you that impression. This could be my last post on this site for a while because of problems with my email address. I'll have to find out what's the problem as soon as possible.

@kurisu7885

w/2 RIAA vs ESA - it is already happening. The BSA employs some of the same tactics the RIAA is using but it gets much less attention.

It IS ironic, considering JT has fought to ban minors from getting exactly the kind of music Zappa was defending...

Daniel, you're a delusional lunatic. I can't put it more simply. Your IQ is either so low into the 20's that it's not even feasibly possible, or you have a serious problem with thinking logically and looking at both sides of the fence. (i.e.: Selfishness)

Being an extremist is NOT GOOD. Why are you priding yourself on this? It's a vice, not a virtue.

Gd man, go outside and interact in some intelligent discussions about stuff that has nothing to do with video games, and maybe in the process ask someone to pull your head out of your ass. It will do you a world of good.

"Isn’t Jack saying he’s a fan of Zappa akin to a jew saying that hitler was “an alright guy”???? "

I think you have that backwards.

Namrepus221:
1. As an alumnus of California University, I want you to know that I'm proud of you. You may not feel very good right now, but you really hit Thompson hard with that question. It sounds to me (I wasn't there - wish I had been) like he manipulated you into anger rather than answer your question. And while yes, you fell into his trap, it's important to remember that he's the one who set it.

2. I would recommend that you speak to a member of the counseling staff or a favorite professor about this. They may be able to offer insights and help you through this. (History professors are the best. :-)

Give good 'ol boy JT a few years after the industry and community actually begins to get agressive and organized on a legal front and he'll be tucking his tail between his legs.


@kurisu7885&Keaton2008

My favorite Gears of War moment took place on launch day when a minor posted up to the gamespot forum asking "how can I turn off the profanity? My parents wouldn't like to hear characters swearing in a game I'm playing."

Suffice to say, he was given 6+ pages of "...and your parents don't mind that you're cutting people in half with a chainsaw?" and "You're not concerned about turning off the curb stomp??"

Am I the only one wishing for South Park to make an episode with JT in it?

"I’m REALLY getting sick of these 8-14 year old kids bad-mouthing over Xbox Live on an “M” Rated title."

Well, if they don't do it on the M rated titles they'll just do it on the Teen rated titles instead. The fact that the kids were bad mouthing had nothing to do with the games M rating. They're just annoying little brats.
Personally, i have played against and with plenty of 13/14/15 year olds online who are great. I've also played against and with many 17/18+ adults who are more immature then the some of the kids on there.

Zappa was a legend and hated people like thompson. Its a shame he died before running for president.

Billy connely said he lives by where frank lived and regrets not having ever stopped to say hi as franks widow said to billy that frank was a fan of his.

more to the point tho, although i dislike thompson i do think their should be some way of imposing a penalty on retailers who sell adult rated games to kids. It wont stop kids getting them but it may help stem the tide.

there was an american kid hurling abuse at me on gears of war the other day and i kept thinking to myself "how has he gotten a M rated game".

"there was an american kid hurling abuse at me on gears of war the other day and i kept thinking to myself “how has he gotten a M rated game”."

I had a similar experience. I got someone with a chainsaw in Gears of War during a match and I got blasted over the headset with some foul, FOUL language by who I assume was a twelve year old. I was already wondering if his parents ever payed attention

"And in the end, the RIAA won. Just as the ESA has won."

Yes, but now alot of people want the RIAA gone for messing up the industry and suing the pants off families because their twelve year old downloaded a Brittany Spears song. I just hope the ESA doesn't wind up like them.

One thing I noted is that the two people who denounced rock, one calling it mass child abuse and the other saying it promoted incest, then lying and saying she never said that, were both older than Mr Zappa himself, and in both cases it seems believed minors deserved no rights so people could keep them safe. Pretty much exactly what Jack is sayign now "Safety trumps freedom."

And on a side note, it seems Thompson will deny he was ever a Zappa fan.

on their way to being*. Sorry, it's late and there is no way to edit previous posts.

Did anyone else find a great deal of delight in the laughter that erupted when zappa was dressing down the Legislature? Does no one see just how important that image is. It shows, that at the time, just as today, the people attacking the industry were nothing compared to those supporting it. And in the end, the RIAA won. Just as the ESA has won.