Listen as Attorneys Argue Minnesota Video Game Law Appeal

Listen as Attorneys Argue Minnesota Video Game Law Appeal

February 15, 2007
As reported by GamePolitics, on Monday oral agruments were heard by the U.S. 8th Circuit Court of Appeals in St. Louis as the state of Minnesota appealed a District Court judge's 2006 finding that its video game law was unconstitutional.

Audio of Monday's hearing is available here and it's definitely worth a listen. The hearing runs about 40 minutes. Unfortunately, the audio quality is intermittent as some of the speakers seem to move away from the mic at times.

Perhaps surprisingly, the judges did not seem entirely convinced by the arguments put forth by the attorney representing the video game industry.

It is not known how soon the Circuit Court will issue a ruling.

Comments

You know what scares me the most here? When the state said that they wanted to restrict violent games because they are "harmful to children's moral and ethical development".

That statement is really scary, that should instantly raise a red flag to why this law should be struck down. So now it's the state's job to legislate how our children should think? No that's the parents' job and that instantly should show that the state has malicious intent.
I LOVE listening to these hearings.
Just listening to the opening few minutes, this District Attorney doesn't sound entirely convinced of the arguments she's making.
Yikes, for the first time it doesn't sound to good for the video game industry. It's actually a little scary.
Hal halpin, now is your chance.
One of those judges (sounds like a fairly old guy) seems like a real jerk, the way he interrupts the games industry lawyer.
I actually like the arguement for why the law is a good thing, namely "This law does not stop parents from buying M and AO games and giving them to their children if they so choose." A law that actually allows parents to do their parenting... ^_^

Then comes the comment "We are talking about the Constitutional Rights of Children" (or something along these lines). Ummm.. no we're not... we're talking about the Constitutional Rights of the Gaming Industry. Children aren't the ones "Speeching".
The part where the DA said that they don't need to prove a causal relationship between games and violent behavior is what really bugs me. So we don't NEED to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that something is harmful in order to ban it.

I fear for this country's future.
I certainly hope they shore up the bench in Minnesota. Sounded like more than one judge kept using the word 'videos' to describe the subject.

I worry when the people making decisions have no clue what they are discussing. Which is why the politicians shouldn't be allowed to make these laws in the first place.
@Terminator44

Then again, it's REALLY REALLY REALLY hard to prove, "beyond a reasonable doubt", certain things. For example, it's hard to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that talking on the phone while driving causes accidents. It may be certain conversations require more focus than others, it may be that most people who get into accidents while talking on the phone happened to drop the phone, it could be that the schmuck in the passenger seat tried to take the phone from the driver, distracting them. But in the end, it's deemed enough of a FACTOR in the risk that though it may not be a direct cause, it deserves regulation. I think this is what she meant by her feeling that causality is not necessary when arguement for correlation exists.

Never-the-less, I think proven Causality would probably be the only thing that could allow these laws to pass (assuming such causality existed).
"So we don’t NEED to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that something is harmful in order to ban it."

Thats correct, all you need to prove that something is harmfull is have a ton of money, a huge ego, and a bunch of special intrest groups to back you up. Because, well, if a minority of people says it's true, then it must be.
That was very good IMO. Though I think the games industry lawyer was much more stable in backing her arguments whereas her opponent seemed a little flustered, like she really didn't expect a couple of those questions and had a hard time forming a reply. Tho under the pressure I still think she did rather well.
Personally, i found the AG arguements for the law rather lame. Seemed like nothing more then a scream of "Please think of the children", and "It's for the children" so lets ignore former court presedent. I also agree with aniki21 that the one old judge seemed like an jerk.
I'll listen to the audio and make a comment tomorrow. It sounds like something I'd get worked up over. And I'm getting ready for bed. It's not time to get worked up over something like this. You should have seen me the last time this kind of audio poped up. (The one where the confuse Bully and the Super Columbine game.) I was literaly yelling at the computer. While I'm doing this my roomate comes and sees me ranting at the pre-recorded audio and thought the whole thing was terribly funny.

posting from home.

- Warren Lewis
I didn't listen to the whole thing, as the sound going out was very annoying. However, the judges bombarding the lawyers is to be expected, as I am a law student now, and my professors are doing that to us in Appellate Advocacy every time to get us prepared. That being said, I didn't like how they ridiculed Judge Posner in AAMA v. Kendrick. It's almost like this group wanted to overturn the previous decisions. Unfortunately, we won't get the same group of judges as the ones who overturned teh St. Louis ordinance.
Sorry to double post, but I have a response to what was said about children not being the ones "speeching." They still have a First Amendment right to view protected material. The limits are broader, but only in the sense of things that are already considered restricted for adults, the definition of those limits are widened (i.e. obscenity). The industry would theoretically not be affected, as they do not get fined for selling the games, and the kids are warned to buy at their own risk. This is, in essence, restricting a population from viewing an expressive medium, and punishing them for the times they do. Also, if the 8th Circuit does overturn the trial court, framing the issue in this way will also make it more likely the Supreme Court will review the issue, which would be very important to get a decision in our favor.
[...] GP: Judge Wollman’s critical comments regarding violent games are not particularly surprising for those who may have listened to last February’s arguments. At that day the panel of three 8th Circuit Court judges asked some very pointed questions of video game industry attorneys. [...]

GamePolitics ShoutBox

Posted 11/07/09 at 10:58am
JDKJ: Which could be explained by both (a) and (b).
Posted 11/07/09 at 10:56am
Austin_Lewis: JDKJ: You forgot C) the fact that, for some reason, every time he did something that would suggest he shouldn't be in the military, let alone an officer, higher ups ignored it or let it slide.
Posted 11/07/09 at 10:51am
JDKJ: Part of the problem is, I believe, that (a) the Army had a lot of time and money already invested in him and which they were unwilling to simply write-off and (b) an increasing need for the type of skills and services he provided.
Posted 11/07/09 at 10:48am
JDKJ: And that even if he was begging not to get cut loose, he was apparently a real good candidate for being cut loose, anyway.
Posted 11/07/09 at 10:11am
JDKJ: @chada: And while Kennedy once noted that there's usually more than enough blame for everyone to get a slice, the possibility that the Army was unwilling to cut loose someone who was asking to get cut loose could be a factor.
Posted 11/07/09 at 10:07am
ZippyDSMlee: *noms on his feet*..nomnomnomnom*droooll* ...wuuutttttt uuu looking at?
Posted 11/07/09 at 10:05am
JDKJ: I'm no psychologist, but I'm told that crazy people have a tendency to do crazy things.
Posted 11/07/09 at 10:03am
chadachada321: Whoops, was out of the convo for awhile. I do wonder what type of ammo he used etc, but the real issue is WHY he did it, not HOW
Posted 11/07/09 at 09:56am
JDKJ: But if it turns out that they actually did, they'll have Hell to pay.
Posted 11/07/09 at 09:45am
JDKJ: And I'd tend to rule out the possibilty of FN Herstal supplying restricted ammunition to someone merely because they're ordering it from a military base.
Posted 11/07/09 at 09:37am
JDKJ: I know you don't leave your gated community and get around much in dark alleys, so you may be surprised to learn that there's this thing called "the black market" where, if you've got enough money, ain't too much of anything which can't be bought.
Posted 11/07/09 at 09:36am
Austin_Lewis: Or, maybe he or someone else at the base ordered the SS190 from FN Herstal.
Posted 11/07/09 at 09:32am
Austin_Lewis: the hands of private owners. They run about 300 dollars minimum for a box of 50, and boxes of AP 5.7 are extremely scarce, mainly residing in the hands of Class III stores or individuals who for one reason or another got a demo box of it.
Posted 11/07/09 at 09:30am
Austin_Lewis: There are other firearms that fire the 5.7. However, I too would like to know where he got the ammo and what kind was used. Maybe Hasan, planning not to live through this, went out and bought one the boxes of SS190 that are floating around in
Posted 11/07/09 at 08:44am
JDKJ: And it isn't yet clear what type of ammunition Hasan used. It's strange that he purchased a gun but didn't purchase ammunition for it at the same place and time. Especially because the calibre required is peculiar to the actual gun.
Posted 11/07/09 at 08:40am
JDKJ: We can sit here all day and debate the relative merits. However, I think the events of recent days suggest that an FN Five-Seven ain't exactly the same as that Daisy BB gun you got for Christmas when you were a kid.
Posted 11/07/09 at 08:38am
Austin_Lewis: JDKJ: tumbling can be quite dangerous. However, the rounds that commonly tumbled were variants of the SS90. Civilian ammo tends to tumble far less commonly.
Posted 11/07/09 at 08:33am
JDKJ: I understand that while they don't have much expansion effect, they tend to "yaw" on impact. Yaw can be almost just as damaging as mushrooming.
Posted 11/07/09 at 08:30am
Austin_Lewis: JDKJ: Except when one considers the lack of expansion for the 5.7, it basically ends up leaving a far smaller hole.
Posted 11/07/09 at 08:29am
JDKJ: But if the latter's travelling at close to twice the speed of the former, there's a compensatory effect on the weight difference.
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