
Gee, wouldn’t it be nice to be able to play
World of Warcraft without actually having to go on quests and fight monsters and stuff?
Michael Donnelly thinks so and has created a program called
WoWGlider that will play the game for you so that you’ll be free to occupy your time with something more entertaining. Philately perhaps?
Early one morning last October, Donnelly was visited at his home by representatives of WoW creator Blizzard and parent company Vivendi. He was told that WoWGlider infringed on copyrights and violated the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (
DMCA). Fearing impending legal action, Donnelly
filed suit first, requesting a jury trial and seeking judgment that his program is not infringing on any rights.
Several days ago, Blizzard and Vivendi filled a
countersuit claiming that Donnelly had, among other offenses, violated the WoW
EULA, infringed on Blizzard’s copyright and trademarks by creating an unauthorized copy of WoW, violated the DMCA and created unfair competition by selling WoWGlider.
According to the suit, Blizzard has suffered “great harm in the direct loss of revenue from terminated users, the loss of subscription revenue from WoWGlider users availing themselves of the cheat, and from the severe damage to the goodwill of the non-cheating population of WoW users.”
In addition to monetary relief, Blizzard and Vivendi have requested that the WoWGlider website be shut down, sale and development of the WoWGlider program be halted, and the rights to all WoWGlider materials including source code and domain name be awarded to Blizzard.
Via: Gamasutra
-Reporting from San Diego, GP Correspondent Andrew Eisen wants World of Warcraft on Nintendo’s console. WoW Wii!
Comments
Ok blizz's CS sucks. Period. I mean i sent in many GM tickets. For example my flags for Arena wouldn't work(whole team) all blizz had for me right away was "Sorry Im not sure what the problem is" ya ok...
Also they don't really give 2 shits about hackers honestly. I reported a bot. I had a VIDEO of it. I sent it to them and they didn't do anything about it. i had no email from them no nothing they didn't do a thing.
I also gave them hard cold proof of a gold buyer (vent recording) sent it to them and nadda.
Also nowhere do I see mention that he was band, where does it say that? And is making, but not using this program against the EULA? Because I doubt he used it himself. (although he must have tested it)
I dont claim to know anything about the WoW comunity. But I see blizzard reacting to a guy who is selling a program that runs seperate from their software, but with the purpose of being used with their software. The only reason I see them reacting this way not because they want to protect the players, but because this guy is making money off of it.
It is not a program that targets other ingame players, so the program itself does not cause other players harm. What causes them harm is the people who resell accounts, ingame currency/items ect... A normal player is not going to use this program for this purpose.
Although this program is cheep, I do not see it as a just reason for their reaction. They did not send him a "cease and desist" notice he "was visited at his home". I do not blame him for reacting the way that he did because a company does not send a representitive to give a cease and disist notice. Blizzard has a history of bullying people into submission and not taking action on behalf of the players until they feel it is worth it. I dont condone what this guys program, but I do not condone the actions of blizzard at all.
I am a strong beliver that the EULA is a load of crap. nobody even bothers reading them anymore. As a player if you dont want to play the game yourself, whats the point in buying it? But when I read that if they dont like my connection settings they can ban me permently, and I cant even call them up and ask why. Tell me how thats ok? EULA, simply says we can ban you for no reason at all, and prevent you from playing this or any of our other games in the future at our discression.
Quick example: I have two starcraft accounts that were banned because Blizzard decided to ban the local ISP. When I contacted them they refused to tell me why they were banned, all I got from them was to reformat my computer and buy a new copy. Which I did and was banned again. Point is they need to act on behalf of the players and not because of profits.
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=ZZAWZSV...
i dont farm gold
i dont farm mats
i level characters to 60/70 so i can experience end game content
i know about 30-40 people that use it for this purpose
once they get to end game they dont bot
i have a wife a job a footy team a LIFE!
If i didnt have wowglider i couldnt play WoW and would therefore end my subscriptions
it does blizzard a service not a disservice
The DMCA is virutually unconstitutional and no none govt entity should wield that kind of power.
A loss in court would force game manuafactures to suddenly realize that there is a alternate solution to people dissatisfied with service. The Courthouse.
If he makes it so that Blizzard can't stop him from selling his program it also means that he makes it so that Blizzard can't stop people from using his program. They are connected. If the courts proclaimed that his program didn't violate the rights of Blizzard then they wouldn't violate the rights no matter who was using it. The provision about customers doesn't serve the purpose you purport. It serves another.
If the courts say that he is allowed to sell it then his customers are allowed to use it. Any attempt at Blizzard to stop them could be construed as an infringment of his rights. Stopping people from using it is an attempt at stopping him from selling it and they have been enjoined from doing that if the courts order in his favor.
2. For a decree enjoining and restraining Defendants from all further charges of infringement and violations of rights”
Where in this is it written "Blizzard must not ban any users of WOWglider". I don't see it.
The other customers he includes in his suit his others customers that Blizzard might want to sue for copyrights infringement by using WOWgliderjust like they threatened to sue him for copyrights infringement. He does not seek to prevent Blizzard from banning them, he seeks to prevent Blizzard suing them for copyrights infringement because they used WOWglider. How many more times must this be repeated?
The baseball anology falls short because the act doesn't interfere with the contractual relationship between the player and a third party. While it could ruin sales, even in the short term, the player and the steriod supplier isn't doing it with the explicit desire to violate the contract. Actually, the opposite is more likely true. A baseball player on steriods hits more homeruns and becomes more marketable. The football player on 'roids gets more sacks and wins defensive player of the year despite being suspended for 4 games. His marketability is unaffected.
The proper sports anology is what the NFL and MLB call tampering since the elements of the offense are the same. You have someone under contract and someone is trying to interfere with that contractual relationship. The NFL, a number of years ago, hit Carmen Policy while he was with the Browns with a 10K fine for hinting that he might be interested in Mike Holmgren as a head coach while Holmgren was still under contract with the Packers.
The gun anology fails because the contractual relationship between the maker of the gun and buyer of the gun is completed upon sale. Blizzard has a continuing relationship with all of their current subscriber. Sports works well for the right anology and tampering fits the bill.
Like I said about the analogies, you're right, they don't really fit, I have a hard time finding one about the contracts.
"If the courts said that Blizzard can’t act against WOWGlider, it’s creator or their customers (a part you didn’t include) then that would mean they could not ban for it".
I didn't include that because it has nothing to do with the issue. The WOWglider creators are not asking a jury to declare that Blizzard can do nothing against something that is against their EULA (and as stated before they can decide that pretty much everything they wish is against their EULA). The court issue here is about "is WOWglider infringing on any intellectual property or copyrights if Blizzard". Blizzard say it does, the WOWglider creator say it doesnt, he was the first to go to court to prove it.
The thing is, Blizzard allows 3rd party add-ons to their game. Every time the game upadtes, they have a message tell you to turn off all add-ons if there seems to be something amiss.
I've had a few guild members use add-ons, some of which can even tell the statistics of a group (who does more damage, time to lvl, etc), and Blizzard has accepted them with open arms.
Twinking in the game is somewhat cheap, though I can easily find that boring. Getting a character to its maximum lvl for a certain ranged battle ground (lvls 10-19 BG's usually have a ton of twinks), pimp them with some of THE best equipment for that quest, and you're ready to wipe the opposing faction (Horde wins alot, FTH!)
Blizzard's in a tight spot in the end. They can try to win, but theres a chance they won't given the slips of other add-ons. They are literally all over the place. My friends rarely use bots in Diablo 2 and they get banned once in awhile (accounts, not CDKey, it works differently).
Seriously, I'm on the Nazgrel realm. There's no botters or gold farmers ruining the economy. It's an army of people who don't know what they're doing sticking dozens of stacks of mithril and truesilver on the AH for 30 silver a stack. Simply put, Bots and Goldfarmers can damage the WoW economy. So can stupid people. Blizzard should ban all stupid people too. It makes just as much sense as:
"THAT IN BLIZZARD’S SOLE DETERMINATION: (i) ENABLES OR FACILITATES CHEATING OF ANY TYPE;" (from the EULA)
It essentially means, that if Blizzard considers you're sibling logging in to your account is cheating, they can legally ban your account. That's the supreme legal fire in this whole thing. Blizzard can ban anyone they want and just say something they were doing Blizzard considers cheating. Hey, you AFK'd out of Alterac Valley, that's cheating. BAM! Banned. You entire group just dropped out of a Warsong match! That's Cheating! BAM! Banned. It's a glorious use of loose terminology. Sucks for us, but Blizz gets that cash when you end up buying another account.
And for the dozen of you wanting this man to suffer like the ninth ring of hell for this because he's ruining your 'game'? I quoth William Shatner: "Get a life!" I play WoW, I see a bot, I don't fret. Someone wants to risk their account to take a shortcut? Feel free, it's their buck, not mine. Creating an unfair advantage? I can only assume you mean PvP, which is the same argument for any gank until you ding 70, regardless of bots or not, so just shut it. Destroying the economy? Get your guildies together and start a monopoly on something not so ridiculous on the AH, like Silk or Wool, and make your own fortune. Where there's a will there's a way, so stop complaining about how your precious toon is only level 16 and doesn't have 100 gold to twink yourself out.
Overall, I agree that they can ban anyone who uses this, and should try to. But Blizzard complaining that this program is unlawfully persuading users to cheat and get banned against their will is stupid, and the fact that they want this guy to turn over the source code, customer records, profits, domain name - that seems kinda messed up. Especially since they really are suing a guy for making a really good macro (It really boils down to it).
As someone on the WoWGlider forums has stated, if this does go through, there will probably be an anonymous Glider that'll appear in another six months to retaliate. And we repeat.
"The specific relief he is asking for is that the courts rule that he isn’t violating *any* of their rights, which would include enforcement of the EULA and as such he is asking the courts to make his bot program legit in game."
I'm not a lawyer so I cant 100% say which one of us is right in this matter but I think you're reading too much into this:
"1. For a judgment and declaration that MDY's WOWGLIDER does not infringe any rights owned by Defendants;
2. For a decree enjoining and restraining Defendants from all further charges of infringement and violations of rights"
Although simply the word "rights" is used in the WOWglider creator suit I truly think it stands for copyrigths and not as you say *any* of their rights. They're pretty much mentionned as intellectual property rights and copyrights in Blizzard's countersuit, not just *any* "rights". It would be seriously ridiculous if someone, creator of bots or not, asks a jury to change Blizzard EULA as they see fit. That person would have to be crazy or joking since it's barely conceivable that they would win.
The baseball analogy still stands. I just need to ask "The sports company asked the team for the right to get the star to endorse their products". Blizzard makes it sounds like the creators of WOWglider forcefully interferes in the "contracts" between Blizzard and it's customers and forcefully makes them ban users of WOWglider. I do not believe it's the case and it will be up to a court if the creators have any responsability in the use of WOWglider beside offering to sell it.
Want another, shorter analogy, I think guns were used. If someone wants to rob a bank and the intention to purhcase a gun to do just so, the seller of the gun will be judged on if the selling of the gun was legal or not but no courts will place blame on him for me robbery.
They also mention how third-party add-on are in violation of the EULA but as I stated before, there are plenty of permitted third party add-ons and Blizzard encourages cheating in a way themselves by promoting twinking.
So I guess we will have to let a court decide who is in the right or wrong here.
Tortious interference doesn't require the third party to forcefully interfere with a contract, just that they induce the breach while being aware of the contract. It would seem that all the elements to support such an accusation are present, unsupported dismissals that they don't have a leg to stand on notwithstanding, but I've not looked up the actual state requirement for such a tort. From the elements Blizzard spelled out in their counterclaim it would certainly be a valid case.
The sports anology is good but you missed the anology. If a player is under contract with a team you have to seek the permission of the team in order to talk to him. Happens almost every year in the NFL. This year I believe it was the Patriots and Jets having it out. I don't know how it's going to work out but I think this will be a sticking point for WoWGlider. Would be interesting to find out what was done to the gamblers in the Black Soxs scandal.
It's not that he is making money off of WoW that is the issue. He is interfering with their rights and the contractual agreements with other players. Even if he were doing this for free they would have still done exactly what they did in this case.
So you make hacking tools that violate the EULA of Windows and then when MS sends you a cease and desist letter you sue them? Because that's what we're talking about. We aren't talking about someone that makes a stat calc or some other innoculous program that helps people play the game without violating the terms of service.
Consider me corrected on that part then, I'm far from an expert, no matter how many big words I tend to use. It doesn't really change my expectations of the outcome though.
As for the contents of the lawsuit being over the top? True, but the higher they aim, the smaller the concessions in any out of court settlement will seem. It most likely wouldn't have happened if mister programmer didn't try to sue them first.
(and really.. you pay lawyers a retainer for the intimidation factor, so why not getyour money's worth? But lawyer bashing is a sport I'll leave out of here, enjoyable as it is)
As for the whole copyright thing, it's true that this guy wrote the program himself, but it's made for the express purpouse of botting in WoW, it has no other use. To do that, it has to bypass the launcher blizzard made for the game, which is in itself protected, and alters it, which can quite simply be construed as a copyright violation.
I think blizzard made a mistake in trying to get the court to award them ownership of the program though. Personally I'd have tried to let him keep ownership but to seek an injunction against the program making any contact with blizzard's servers, and holding him liable for every instance in which this does happen. This way, if he loses, he'll just throw out a few copies out on the net and people can go on with it independantly, after they strip out the copy protection the guy put in it.
In the end though, it can't be denied that the guy made a program that's only usable with WoW (can't be adapted for anything else, as it's making use of an interface specific to the interaction between WoW's client and the server) and is making money off it. That in itself will likely be what will sway the court in Blizzard's favor.
Can anyone seriously see things ending differently than that the guy gets told to stop, no matter what rhetoric is behind it?
"As for the whole copyright thing, it’s true that this guy wrote the program himself, but it’s made for the express purpouse of botting in WoW, it has no other use."
That in itself is not copyright infringement. See my iPod example earlier. It can't work with Zune, or any other MP3 player. So is it a copyright infringement on Apple's IP? No.
"To do that, it has to bypass the launcher blizzard made for the game, which is in itself protected, and alters it, which can quite simply be construed as a copyright violation."
Blizzard itself gives you instructions on how to bypass the launcher, though they don't recommend it. What this program does is controls & reads the WoW app, while hiding it's "signature" from the Warden app that monitors your computer while you play. The launcher itself isn't protected.
So against the EULA and grounds for booting anyone caught using it? Definitely. Valid grounds for a lawsuit or legal bullying against the guy who wrote it? Nope.
I was fighting monsters trying to get to quest items in the Shimmering Flats. Another player comes and ninja loots them (for those nut familiar with the terms it means he took the treasure the monsters I was fighting were guarding while I was fighting them so he would'nt have to and the results was tha I would have to fight them again when the treasure reappeared). Moments later I see him killed by the monsters guarding the next treasure and we have the following conversation:
Me: I guess you kind of deserve that, ninja-looting from me.
The player: It was a mistake but if you want to bother me about it next time I'll do it on purpose.
Me: If it was a mistake then an apologie would have been nice but be a ?&%# jerk if you want (I had the profanity filer on).
The player: Nice wording.
Me: I don't what that was, it (the word) was supposed to bigger.
I found out what I typed at my next play session because I was suspended for 3 days for "use of a racial slur". You see I accidentally typed the letter right of the B on the keyboard. I wrote to Blizzard asking if they suspended me on the player word alone or if they had logs of the conversations. If so, one could clearly see that it was a typing mistake and that I meant to type "bigger" not the other word. They answered me that a GM read the log of the conversation and that they decided to suspend me anyway because I agreed not to use "racial slurs" in the EULA.
Are not macro programs against the ELUA as well?
Lawsuits all around!
@the1jeffy
"Upon further review: I apologize to Hackangel. Jabr is a copy-cat!"
Can't help but laugh ;)
Let's forget it's botting program here. Imagine it's an add-on called WOWinterfacer that modifies the interface for a quicker access to spells. This is against the EULA. Imagine yours is so good that you decide to sell it. Blizzard then comes and tell you to cease and desist because you are violating their copyrights. You ask for jury trial to determine if what you created is your creation alone and not Blizzard. That is what is happening here. He's not suing Blizzard per se but they are involved in making the claims he is violating copyrights.
Bot programs like this one are a scourge to the game. Be it Chinese Goldfarmers (called such because most Goldfarmers are low wage workers in China) or power levelers, these people DIRECTLY harm the enjoyment of others to the game.
Goldfarmers 1) monopolize mobs/resource nodes in areas where high value mobs and resources tend to be found. 2) wreck havioc on the in game economies by through flooding the market or mudflation. 3) have been known to use bot programs like this one as part of account hacks, where they take control of an account, log into a character, hearth back to a main city, retrain the character as an enchanter, disenchant every item in the character's possession that cannot be traded, transfer all tradeable materials (and the freshly dusted equipment) and gold to a mule account, and begin selling the shards, nexus crystals, etc on the AH (Blizzard had to re-work how enchanting worked to contain the damage this was doing, which cost time and money that could have been spent designing new content, or fixing bugs in existing content).
The powerlevelers? Ever been in a PUG with some botted 60? Oh the pain... learn2play does not even begin to describe, and oh yeah, there went my evening's relaxation time.
I hope blizzard owns this guy's ass financially for the rest of his miserable life after this.
The goldfarming and botting will only stop when they are made to pay in painful ways. This is a start.
Yes, but the question is, is Blizz allowed to sue him for helping others violate their EULA, or are they merely allowed just to ban people?
He's suing them because they threatened him with legal action if he did not fork over the profits from selling his macro program and stop upkeeping it. He sued them in order to force them to admit that they don't have any authority over him beyond enforcing the EULA... They countersued claiming he violated their copyright and the DMCA.
Oh it an bind more than 1 key to a button to (copy paste can do 2 keys at once thus breaking a ELUA)
and what about thos redesigned keyboards for MMOs its the same damn thing!
Now there is a diffrance in gaining control over a game and bot program,the BOT program can used to farm and thus a bad thing.
The only thing Blizzard is allowed to do is to say, "No, we don't like this and if you're caught using it with our program you'll be banned." If blizzard works hard enough to counteract glide users, people will stop buying the product that doesn't work. Simple as that.
Ahem, seriously, though. It looks like this guy found a legal loophole and was exploiting it for his own gain. Good for him. He then pro-actively sued, meaning he is either very dumb, or has a lot of money to pay good lawyers, because Blizzard will fuck him. Hard. Like running backwards through a cornfield. Naked. If they can, anyway, and I hope they can't. I don't like game companies trying to legally enforce EULA's in court.
Look, no one is debating whether Blizzard can ban his, or any other account, that uses this Bot. It's fairly straight forward in the EULA. Botting = Banning.
And I quote:
"5. Consent to Monitor. WHEN RUNNING, THE GAME MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY (RAM) FOR UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY WITH THE GAME. AN �UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM� AS USED HEREIN SHALL BE DEFINED AS ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY �ADDON,� �MOD,� �HACK,� �TRAINER,� OR �CHEAT,� THAT IN BLIZZARD'S SOLE DETERMINATION: (i) ENABLES OR FACILITATES CHEATING OF ANY TYPE; (ii) ALLOWS USERS TO MODIFY OR HACK THE GAME INTERFACE, ENVIRONMENT, AND/OR EXPERIENCE IN ANY WAY NOT EXPRESSLY AUTHORIZED BY BLIZZARD; OR (iii) INTERCEPTS, �MINES,� OR OTHERWISE COLLECTS INFORMATION FROM OR THROUGH THE GAME. IN THE EVENT THAT THE GAME DETECTS AN UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM, THE GAME MAY (a) COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO BLIZZARD, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM WAS DETECTED; AND/OR (b) EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO THE USER."
So they can ban him, or any one who uses this Bot. Hell, Blizzard can ban you for little to no reason at all. That's their decision to make in turning away your montly fee. But counter-sue him for distribution of the program? Not so much. Why?
Because this opens a legal can of worms that no-one wants open. No one wants a court decision that relates real-world loss with a bot that generates gold. Not Blizzard, not the players, not even the gold farmers. This will end badly one way or another.
If I was Blizzard would have simply gone mole, ferreting out his secrets in the guise of a user, found a way to track the bot, and mass-banned users of it. If it was worth a lawsuit, it was worth the time of a programmer to investigate the code.
But, they went all C&D on his ass. Yuck, what a mess.
"And it took like 100 comments for Jabr to first to make any sense"
I ressent that, it's what Ive been saying all along :P but finally some people seem to grasp the point of the issue here.
Like pretty much all of the others you missed the point entirely (and I played WOW in case you use this as an argument). The point is not about if botting programs are good or bad. I don't think even one person here mentionned bot programs as a good thing. The point is about can Blizzard sue the creator of one for copyrights violation and ask for monetary compensation for the users they banned.
By your logic, any iPod add-on is making money off Apple's IP and should not be allowed to profit...
Please apply your own advice. Ethically he's horribly horribly evil. Legally, Blizz has no grounds to threaten or sue him.
@the1jeffy
Yeah, Hackangel beat me to it. Maybe I just worded it more simply. ;)
I've been playing wow since open beta and yes while I agree botters and farmers are annoying as hell. You need to pull your head out from your ass and see what legal precedents this can have on independent software developers.
Right now you and many others are venting your frustrations and annoyance and a guy who may have caused a lot of your grief but did nothing legally wrong. So if you want to ban glide users in WoW no argument here, but if you want to see the guy go into financial ruin for no good legal reason. Then you're no better than those "for the children" politicians we've been hating on lately.
Why not? The Bush administration does...
The guys who make my lamp are different from the guys I buy light bulbs from. The fact that they work together doesn't mean the guys who make the light bulbs are infringing on the design of the lamp.
How exactly could this possibly be construed as violating copyright law when applied to a digital medium? I've written a few programs that can run on Windows without anyone giving me permission, am I an offender now?
How would that right get overturned? Theres not even any mention of this at all.
@Chadius
Exactly what I have been saying. People who complain about how this upsets the economy need to realise there's been plenty of other factors ruining it. I wrote before that these problems will persist as long as there a huge difference between casual and hardcore gamers in their "virtual" ressources. Thus there will always be a market for bots and gold farmers and thus an imperfect economy (it's not like the real one is perfect either).
Blizzard is not exactly flawless when it comes to their claim. It doesnt want bots that makes some player have more ressources than others but it encourages twinking (twinking, by the way also upsets the economy of an MMO). They say that third party add-ons are against the EULA but they allow plenty and even recommend some on the forums.
So when i take my vacation to the bahamas, it shouldnt matter that the thief that stole my money and everything i had is in the right because he is putting food on the table?
If i want to watch tv, i should have to be forced to sit and watch reruns of I love lucy on a broken tv, in portagese (assuming i dont know it at all of course.) But hey, its okay. Someone somewhere is making money off my pain and suffering.
Glider does not break EULA, just as CT raid does not, and any other modifications. Glider is a violation of their ToS because of the ban they placed on its use. Glider has a right to exist and be sold, its not illegal, its simply software. So in the end if they want to package and sell it for use with WoW they can. If they want to say that it is Blizzard software thats where the issue would lie. Glider itself isn't responsible for what people do with their software since they stated that it doesn't violate the EULA but Blizzard has banned it. At that point the liability of the product is now in the hands of the user. It would be like holding gun manufacturers responsible since their products "tempted" someone to kill.
And to all the people crying over unfair advantage, where does the line meet to make it fair for everyone? Is it fair that I'm on a cable line while someone else is on a t3 connection? Is it fair if I have 4 different user interface modifications to allow me better and quicker information processing? Is it fair that I have a better computer than you allowing for quicker rendering and reaction time? There is no fair in computer gaming, it has and always will be the guy with the best rig and tools will have an advantage.
If you want fair, play in official tournaments with supplied systems and connections.
No, he isn't. Look at the relief he is asking for. He is asking for the Courts to tell Blizzard they can't stop him from selling or his customers from using his program.
This notion that he has to somehow modify the client to be consider a hacker is unsupported by any reading of the DCMA or a reading of copyright in general. You can make illegitimate copies of things without editing or doing anything to the source at all. His circimvention of Warden is the violation and it doesn't matter how or where that violation is done.
I think the most interesting point isn't the copyright issue but the first count in the countersuit which is Tortious Interference With Contract. In simple terms, an outside party can't interfer with a contractual relationship between two outside parties. This one, more than the DCMA portion will be costly for him if he loses because they can get the monthly fees, perhaps for more than one month, for everyone banned using his program. That theory alone could prevent him from selling or giving away his program. Blizzard not only has a leg to stand on, they have two and they are both on firm ground.
Glider does break the EULA. Blizzard says so. The maker of Glider says so. To disagree with the people who made the EULA and the one who admits it is to likely be wrong.
"No, he isn’t. Look at the relief he is asking for. He is asking for the Courts to tell Blizzard they can’t stop him from selling or his customers from using his program."
Where? I read it again and I don't see it anywhere that he is asking Blizzard that his customers be allowed to use WOWglider without being banned.
"In simple terms, an outside party can’t interfer with a contractual relationship between two outside parties. This one, more than the DCMA portion will be costly for him if he loses because they can get the monthly fees, perhaps for more than one month, for everyone banned using his program. That theory alone could prevent him from selling or giving away his program. Blizzard not only has a leg to stand on, they have two and they are both on firm ground."
He's not interfering. He's not forcing WOWglider upon Blizzard customer's. Let's go back to a baseball analogy. Let's say a sports company recruits a baseball star to endorse their products in hopes of incresing sales. The baseball star is found to be using steroids and it results in people turning away from the star and the products he endorses. Will the sports company have a leg to stand on while suing the drug-dealer who sold the steroids for loss of revenue?
From what I've gathered, WoWGlider scans memory addresses to acquire info on health, location, items, etc. Stuff which is clearly not encrypted.
Warden scans for "suspicious" programs and window titles, It scans DLLs and running processes, and compares them to known "hashes". WoWGlider just keeps updating to be different all the time.
I'm in the loot=bad wagon. I'd rather a game eliminate loot entirely or demphasize loot's importance than try to ban gold farmers.
If that right gets overturned, I expect to see some quite severe ripples in the MMO community.
"The game industry has been profitable LONG before EULA’s were forced upon us."
Those games also cost less than $100k to make. Even though piracy ran rampant, there were enough purchases to pay that off. The $10-$15 million dollar monstrosities that games have become require that we do everything we can to maximize profits, and for MMO games like WoW that includes forbidding reverse-engineering, since cheating can drive away paying customers.
Fact is, we can have it two ways: either you accept a EULA so that companies can crack down on those who are breaking the rules, or we can lose the big-budget games like WoW that would not be profitable enough to sustain in its current form if the EULA didn't exist.
I do have one problem with EULAs... they are not on the back of the box. I realize they are too long to do so, but there needs to be a better way (even if that way is making them accessible online). Because the current implementation is trapping the user: you don't know the EULA until you've already bought and opened the product, voiding the return policy.
However, I also think the people who worry most about EULAs are either the people that are planning to pirate or cheat, or those who fight the power just for the sake of fighting it. Most of these companies got where they are by making good products, why are we pissed off when they are trying to protect their profits so they can give us MORE good products? Do we always have to root for the little guy, even when the little guy is the bad guy?
Warden activates the WoW client, and without warden being activated WoW will not run
WoWGlider bypasses Warden by activating the WoW client and tricking the WoW client into thinking warden is running.
Am I A) correct in understanding the way WoWGlider functions and if so B) correct in understanding that the only way this could be done is analyzing and cracking the "software protection" that blizzard set up, (meaning that the guy selling wow glider is selling a product that's only purpose is to aide people in breaking their "EULA contracts" with blizzard?)
I originally thought WoWGlider functioned as say, Ghostmouse, which just gave commands to your mouse to move here click here, at certain time intervals, but now it seems more like a trainer than a macro program to me.
Actually that sums up the situation very neatly. Nice one.
Your argument, whilst not without some merit, is flawed. As I understand it, this guy CANNOT be locked up for this infringement, only sued. Now if he is going to start throwing around legal threats you have to expect a response. Blizzard's in this case is to counter-sue because they believe they have been wronged. None of this I think is wrong on Blizzard's part, they are just protecting their userbase and their rights.
There is however an interesting legal issue here. Blizzard says that it retains all rights and ownership of characters and equipment ingame, but by suggesting that this software would inflate pricing would be to acknowledge they have some value. This would be something I would stay well away from if I were them. However the other side of it suggesting that they lose revenue from people that THEY ban is again not going to stand up in court. The decision to use the software is the choice of the person who is banned and the decision to ban is Blizzard's so this doesn't affect the Bot creator either.
This will come down to if the Bot is an infringement of copywrite and the EULA and if the EULA has any legal standing. I have no idea how this will pan out in truth, but I also don't think that the Bot creator is the sinned against. He made a program and was making money off it that he KNEW would go against the principles and the EULA of W.o.W.
I also would like to say that I side with those that do not like the idea of cheats ruining thier leisure time. This is a game people invest many hundreds of hours in and pay for the privledge. If this was a game of football and some idiot picked up the ball and started throwing it in the goal time and time again, and you were paying for the time to play on the pitch, you would doubtlessly start getting annoyed.
Clearly you have no idea what a spoiled brat is. I can definitely say it is NOT someone who works for a living and pays their own way to play a game every month and doesn't like the idea of other people cheating. That is someone who respects fair play. All the swearing and tantrums in the world won't change that.
As for the comparison to cheating in a casino, well actuallya recent legal case where people were using electronic devices to count cards ended with the cheats getting to keep the money, but upholding the casino's right to refuse them entry ever again. Doubtless all other casino's will have them on their "No Entry" lists as well. If people side with the casino over this, that doesn't make them spoilt either, just people who dislike cheats.
"It’s pretty standard to send a cease and desist before resorting to suing."
True, but without a legal leg to stand on, they were just bullying him. His lawsuit is his version of a "back off".
"Not to mention the WoWGilder guy is on pretty shaky legal ground himself seeing as he’s selling a cheat program."
I don't think "writing a cheat program" is a felony. ;)
"Blizzard’s got a legal leg to stand on"
Please explain how. They claim he's violating their copyright, which he isn't, because he's not using any of their IP to sell his own. They claim he's violating the DMCA, but his program doesn't hack theirs, it just runs it.
Ethically, he's on VERY shaky ground. But legally? He's on more solid ground than Blizzard is right now...
Got 250 honour points from murdering a bot over and over. Delightful!
I'm guessing you play a troll :P
"Fuck your entertainment, if you don’t care about others, nobody should give a shit about you."
Just because it's entertainment, doesn't make it any less important. I pay for a certain service and I prefer that service not to be overrun with people exploiting and ruining it. Whether that service be a phone line (I don't want telemarketers), an e-mail service (I don't want spam) or a postal service (I don't want my mailbox full of "You may already have won...), there are alway people who will take advantage of of it to push a product or try and make a quick buck. The bots and goldsellers are no different.
"My sympathy lies more with them than with you."
With people like IGE? The suits who just manage a website while washing their hands of the farming sweatshops that create their money?
"You people sure are obsessed with him."
He is a public figure who has made silly blanket statements like this in the past and has been known to argue on this site previously. I was merely pointing out the similarity between your comments and the kind he makes.
The level grind IS part of the "true" WoW experience. What your talking about is more like an "ideal" WoW experinece. No leveling up, no need to earn money, no need to grind anything, just get together with poeple and beat up high level monsters. While i have not played WoW in particular i have played other MMO's, and leveling up was just part of the experience and didn't seem like a massive grind at first. At those low levels, you make contact with lots of new poeple and make friends... together you go out and beat up monsters and go on quests that are appropiate for your level and it's good fun... without that level grind, you might not meet half the poeple you end up meeting; you can meet some good poeple while leveling up.
Bravo. Did you want a gold star sticker? This changes nothing.
"Second, let’s try another example. Telemarketers. I mean, hey, they’re just putting food on the table, right? So it’s perfectly okay for them to call you whenever you want and try to get you to buy roofing tiles or magazine subscriptions or whatever garbage they’re trying to peddle. I mean, nobody could possibly mind that, right? For a good cause and all. I mean, if people didn’t like being harassed during their leisure time, then they might create some…oh, I don’t know, a registry of some kind where people could sign up so they wouldn’t be called. But hey, what are the odds of some kind of “Do Not Call Registry” being created? Pretty low, I’d say! What kind of petty asshole would ask to not have their downtime constantly interrupted!
Oh wait, what have we here? Seems there’s a lot more people who don’t like being bugged than I thought!
Now just imagine paying for the priviledge of having your leisure time pissed on."
Except with RMT players, you're decidedly on something you're doing for entertainment. Fuck your entertainment, if you don't care about others, nobody should give a shit about you. With telemarketers, however, you might actually be doing something important while they call. So sorry, try again.
As an aside, you can hate them all you want. If you'll read carefully, I never said you couldn't, just that you're a faggot for doing so. My sympathy lies more with them than with you.
"If you don’t play the game then none of this argument applies to you and maybe you should just drop the issue."
I play FFXI and and WoW.
"Are you an alt character of Jack Thomspon?! What a stupid thing to say!"
You people sure are obsessed with him.
THe details on the case are fuzzy, but I think the whole thing was done because he feared legal action from Blizzard. What this appears to be is him taking the preemptive and saying that he can't be sued for his program. I could be wrong though.
"Nobody is playing a game to “keep food on the table” or “keep a roof over their head” because the money isn’t there for that. It’s a red herring. Gold farming pays sub minimum wage all things considered and when the overhead factors in the notion that this is providing a living for someone while ignoring the fact they can go get any job that pays more is downright ludicrous. There is a reason that gold farming is done on a massive scale in China and not in the US. "
It makes good money in China. Sure, there are LOTS of better jobs in America, but it pays far more than minimum wage in China, which is why people in China do it. It's easy, efficient, and pays well (relatively). There ARE people who depend on this for income in China, and I stand mainly with them - if your statement is about people in the U.S. though, I agree completely.
Will he be found to violate any copyrights? I dont know enough about copyright laws to give an answer.
Will he be found to be responsible for a loss of money to Blizzard? I don't understand how Blizzard can sue for that. If you're banned for using a bot, unless someone forced you to used it, it was your own decision so the guy can't be held responsible for the decision of others.
"You say it’s perfectly reasonable to ban someone who is breaking the rules but if you look at what he is trying to do is to sue Blizzard so that they can’t enforce the rules against using his program."
Not at all, he is asking a jury to decide if his program is violating any copyright. He is not asking if the jury if WOWglider vilotes the EULA but copyrights. If he wins on this issue WOWglider still won't be accepted by Blizzard.
This is exactly the sort of mentality that spammers use to justify clogging everyone's email for dick pills and credit card scams.
Second, let's try another example. Telemarketers. I mean, hey, they're just putting food on the table, right? So it's perfectly okay for them to call you whenever you want and try to get you to buy roofing tiles or magazine subscriptions or whatever garbage they're trying to peddle. I mean, nobody could possibly mind that, right? For a good cause and all. I mean, if people didn't like being harassed during their leisure time, then they might create some...oh, I don't know, a registry of some kind where people could sign up so they wouldn't be called. But hey, what are the odds of some kind of "Do Not Call Registry" being created? Pretty low, I'd say! What kind of petty asshole would ask to not have their downtime constantly interrupted!
Oh wait, what have we here? Seems there's a lot more people who don't like being bugged than I thought!
Now just imagine paying for the priviledge of having your leisure time pissed on.
"Also, the people who think that cheaters need to be “dealt with harshly” need to get real. Someone “ruins a game” for you and should be “dealt with”? Please. Talk about a spoiled brat."
Yes, how dare these people who pay a subscription fee be allowed play the game without interference/ecomomic inflation from people using cheats/hacks/bots? When they say "dealt with" they mean removed from the game, not put in jail. If sports stars are using performance enhancing drugs, or fixing games by not playing to standard, would you say that people asking for their removal from the sport were spoiled brats?
If you don't play the game then none of this argument applies to you and maybe you should just drop the issue.
"“Ruining your gaming experience” can only be considered positive."
Are you an alt character of Jack Thomspon?! What a stupid thing to say!
Then you're a spoiled shit and don't deserve your life.
Simple as that.
"You called down the thunder, now reap the whirlwind" - Ghost, From Starcraft (?)
Nobody is playing a game to "keep food on the table" or "keep a roof over their head" because the money isn't there for that. It's a red herring. Gold farming pays sub minimum wage all things considered and when the overhead factors in the notion that this is providing a living for someone while ignoring the fact they can go get any job that pays more is downright ludicrous. There is a reason that gold farming is done on a massive scale in China and not in the US.
Simple as that.
"I mean a cheat in the traditional sense as in breaking the code... The reason I don’t really consider it a cheat is because to me it’s just leveling up really, really fast. That’s it, no hacking other players equipment, no hacking the system to get items, etc"
Actually, i would say say that cheating in the "traditional sence" would be getting any kind of unfair advantage that other players do not have. Using BANNED equitment to level up really, really fast without actually having to actually do it yourself is in and of itself cheating. It gives you an unfair advantage.
What you are talking about is "hacking" in the traditional sence, not "cheating"... two very different things
cheating = unfair advantage
hacking = changing and altering code
hacking is one method of cheating, but one does not need to hack inorder to cheat...
Generally speaking - and this in no way is my view on all of them - gamers are immature, spoiled shitheads. It's like the whole RMT money trading whining MMO players do; some of these RMT players are people utilizing this as a means to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads. I'd sooner prefer your game be ruined than they be rendered homeless, and if you prefer otherwise, then you're one of the spoiled little shits yourself.
Also, the people who think that cheaters need to be "dealt with harshly" need to get real. Someone "ruins a game" for you and should be "dealt with"? Please. Talk about a spoiled brat.
You're not just a spoiled little child, you're an obnoxious, self-righteous hypocrite.
In theory, a fight of some kind might ensue between the ESA and the ECA, and while I can appreciate the content coming from the ESA members, as an actual ECA member, my rights are not to be ignored/dismissed.
Don't be so sure about that-it's NOWHERE that obvious. The legality of ANY EULA has never been throughly tested in a court of law.
@Boffo97
Now that I am thinking about it, since this will test the reach of an EULA only, there would probably be no need of the ECA at all...from what I understand the ECA is more political in nature, like going after John Bruce Thompson-sponsored measures. I'm getting the ECA confused with the EFF I'm afraid...but I don't know if the EFF would bother with something like this, because it's pretty sketchy by default.
In a related item, so did the creator of BLEEM also decided to take a risk. BLEEM was deemed illegal by Sony (just because a company says something, doesn't mean it is legally/lawfully valid), because it was a commercial emulator, but the courts ruled in favor of BLEEM (it was NOT a perfect emulator), so Sony started filing lawsuit after lawsuit of any kind until they could bankrupt the company (which they did).
If you don't want to be forced into the contract, do not buy the box in the store, and thus license the game.
With just a little homework, most games' EULAs are readily available online before you buy them.
And if the ECA became involved in this one, I would be shocked at the wasted resources. This would not be in favor of the consumer just because one side is a corporation. The average consumer hopes the cheater gets plowed under.
It's pretty standard to send a cease and desist before resorting to suing. Not to mention the WoWGilder guy is on pretty shaky legal ground himself seeing as he's selling a cheat program. Blizzard's got a legal leg to stand on, they just rather not have to push that hard, given that most people have enough sense to know when the jig is up and it's time to move on.
When he did violate the EULA, Blizzard had every right to ban him.
However they went beyond that, and threatened him because he was enabling other people to violate their EULA.
He's not suing because they banned him. He's suing because they're making claims about his software that he wants refuted. Namely that it violates their copyright, and that it violates the DMCA. Since he's not selling copies of WoW, but a utility to run it, the copyright isn't violated, and unless he broke some encryption, they'll have a hard time proving he violated the DMCA, which since his app just runs the keyboard and mouse for you, he doesn't.
@Matt
Section 12 of the EULA won't possibly stand up in court. It's not their right, it's still up to a judge if they get their attorney fees or not.
"...EFF I’m afraid…but I don’t know if the EFF would bother with something like this, because this situation is pretty sketchy by default."
I didn't want to sound like I was knocking the EFF.
EULAs are forced contracts. They strip consumers of their rights and powers, and are wholly unconstitutional.
Gold is not static in the game. Because there is an economy, you have to accept and act on the changes in that economy. You'd be hard pressed to say that there's a difference between gold farmers and these bots. The fact of the matter is that neither is avoidable, and neither is really "wrong." Bots are simply traceable.
I think botting is silly, and a waste of processing power. Furthermore, I find MMO's just as bad. Obviously, the philosophy of a task-based calculation game is broken by a task-based calculator (Bot), but that's it. I really don't see how you can possibly be upset by this situation. If WoW introduced "NPC Adventurers" that did the exact same thing as this program, they'd be hailed for submersion/realism.
I say that judicial action in lieu of a video game is silly because, well, it is. This isn't a concept of financial loss on Blizzard's part. Users are choosing to use their product how they would like to without causing harm or damages to anyone else. If you think that the marginal economic offset of a server is effectively harming users pocketbooks and that it's hearable in ANY court, then there'd be a lawsuit every month because someone ganked your clan before you could finish your raid.
We're talking about play money in a play environment. Regardless of how this play money becomes worth less, that's still the final outcome. It doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights as users beyond the normal construct of the game. The game doesn't disallow play for 24/7, nor does it disallow massive amounts of gold harvesting. A 3rd party program that hides itself from a right-infringing "warden" program does those very things. It's cheap, it's unfair, and it's unsportsmanlike. It *isn't* illegal, or even damaging to anyone's income.
For example, let's compare it to Final Fantasy. There's a better sword that supposedly drop from a monster so you go out in the field to fight monsters until it drops. WOWglider does that in World of Warcraft without you having to be at the controller/keyboard. Sounds nice in theory.
The reason why most people is against this (thus Blizzard because it respects ihe majority of it's customers wishes in this manner) is that it upsets the balance of ressources in the game, making prices rise or lower depending on many factors.
The reason I myself find it understandable even though it is wrong is that there is already an imbalance in ressources between casual and hardcore gamers but only the use of a bot in against the EULA.
There are a lot of third parties software accepeted in World of Warcraft but bots are not. As stated before, the reason Blizzard is countersuing is because that this particular third party software is sold instead of being free like most of the others are.
Please read the article and the description of the software. While Blizz had every right to ban him, I don't feel they have any grounds to sue him, so they're resorting to threatening him instead (demanding his site be taken down, etc). Which is why he's suing them. To tell them that if they don't have a legal leg to stand on, back off...
It has an anti-botting countermeasure. I'm not sure if that is irony, but I chuckled.
Learn how to break up what you say into sentences, its a lot easier to read than that ugly block of text.
"most people who bot are people who have lvled many chars to 60 and 70 so maybe i don’t feel like playing all those hours again and agian just because i wont to start on a new sever"
You want to start on a new sever, but do not have a high level character on that sever? so what, you think that just because you've leveled up high characters before somehow gives you a special privilage to avoid leveling up other high level characters? So long as you still have that high level character on your old sever, you must EARN to have a high level character on another sever. You can't just get something for nothing, you want ANOTHER high level charatcer then you should earn it yourself. its all PART OF THE GAME, you should either deal with it, or quit...
"glider do