"What is the deal with the objective to kill, “20-30 people”? I haven’t seen an FPS yet that had a target kill count…

In Thief 2 and Thief 3 there is a cap on the number of people you are allowed to kill. Go play almost any MMOG.. They have volumes of missions where are particular kill count is needed.

It amazing to me that people think he should have kept the notebook covertly at home. He'd have already been hung, for secretive, reclusive, plotting if he had done that.

I know it isn't the obvious conclusion, but even if he hadn't been working on a game he could have just been trying imagine how to survive an attack by somebody else.

Yeah, I know what you mean, I guess it's just the blatant laziness of the politicians that really irritates me to be honest, it feels like discrimination, but at the end of the day, it's probably more just like 'pre-meditated ignorance', and that's just as sad from a politician.

And yeah, Thompson is a special case, for one thing he's a compulsive obsessive, he gets obsessed with something to the point where he pursues it way beyond the point of reasonable and intelligent discourse.

Strangely enough, Obsessively Offensive Behaviour ranks far higher on the FBI's 'warning flag' list than Violent Media. Frankly, it does leave me a little concerned about him.

@Grendal: I not only played Assassination (we called it Killer) in high school, I organized and RAN a game of it. And got thrown out of the computer room for firing disc tracer guns at each other over monitors.

The teacher who ran the computer room never once thought that we were plotting actual violence - because she actually KNEW us. She thought - correctly - that we were engaging in a bit of horseplay that did not belong in the computer room.

As someone else on GP mentioned, video games are, in a sense, this generation's equivalent of Cops & Robbers or Cowboys & Indians, games that should be familiar to virtually every male over the age of 40... and probably quite a few under that age, as well. The biggest difference is that with violent video games, nobody gets forced to play the, "bad guys" (Well, in Counterstrike, you take turns - but nobody is repeatedly forced to be the bad guy because of being unpopular).

One point that I keep coming back to on this matter is, what is the deal with the objective to kill, "20-30 people"? I haven't seen an FPS yet that had a target kill count... it's usually, "kill everything in sight," or, "kill everything except these people who help you." The whole "20-30" bit strikes me as a bit odd.

More information would really be helpful in this case, but one thing strikes me. Did anyone here ever play the game "Assassination" in middle or high school? Basically the game revolved around a group of people one of whom ha d a list of all the players' names. That person would distribute names to the various players of other people on the list (sometimes only one sometimes more than one) and that person became the target. Your objective then was to be the first person to hit them with a rubber band (at least in the brand I played) while the person named had to stay "alive". The rub is only the person with the main list knows all the players.

I'm not saying that is the case, I don't know near enough to make an actual decision on this kid, but this was what immediately came to mind when I read the article.

There should be a legitimate investigation. The fact that there was a notebook with plans to kill 30 students is something that I would look into.

The fact that he was designing a FPS is something to be proud of in the gaming community and those may have actually been part of a FPS, but I doubt it. There is one thing that we need to get over though, as jakethe8lf said, the United States just need to get over terrorism.

The US needs to get over terrorism. The US has never been safer.

This guy should've been investigated, at the very most, not arrested.

Thanks for that link Jabrwock. I still would like to see more information though.

Yeah... I'm not buying it, for him to mention 30 students means that either they all play counter-strike with him at the same time (not likely), he was angry, acting out, and not serious about it, or he actually planned to do it. Whichever it was it looks like someone using games to explain away violent behavior, only done by someone in a group who doesn't usually do it, gamers themselves. After all, no group can be free from violent behavior, he probably believed the game would get it worse then him. However, I don't think anyone at all will believe him. After all, scapegoating is the job of the media and politicians, and I doubt a child and his father will be able to do it nearly as successfully.

I don't buy this kids story at all. Using the video game issue to use as a defense is stupid and makes the gamer community look worse. OMG, kids who play video games are also masterminds of murdererous plots. This would be closer to JTs training on games seem closer to home if he is simulating his school and naming a body count already.

@Nekojin

Didn't say it was a good argument. ;)

Still, it is a valid argument to say that the only reason he's getting more scrutiny, than say, last year, over such an incident, is because of VT.

Last year he might have been suspended for a day. This year he's hauled into jail and given $10,000 bail... So clearly he's not being treated equally. The law itself hasn't changed in that time, merely it's implementation by the prosecutor, in response to recent events.

Darn lack of UBB code. =^_^=

To all you people who think the kid was stupid for bringing his notebook to school:

"Shut Up!"

If any of you have ever done any creative writing in your life, you would know that notebooks go with you everywhere. Just because you are writing something that could be conceived as controversal, does not mean that you should be writing it in your attic or basement so that no one could possibly be offended.

If anything, they should arrest the kid he was talking to as an accessory in attemted murder or something else totally stupid. If the kid was talking to another kid about such a thing, it was for these possible reasons:

1. The other kid was in cahoots with him and they were discussing the plan.

2. The kid was talking to his friend seeking emotional support or help in getting over this bad desire to kill.

3. The kid was discussing a game or story idea with his friend to get his friend's opinion on the concept.

The first one is dangerous. The second is a cry for help. The third is totally harmless.

I think that we do need to get more information though. Unfortunately, we will not be getting any from such biased sources as this news station. I would like to see the police report and the contents of the notebook in context. I would also like to see the school's report on the event. They are supposed to file an incedent report for school purposes.

@Nekojin

The 14th deals with equality before the law. The father is basically alleging that the prosecutor is treating his son differently than other kids who might have written disturbing artistic work, just because of recent events (VT). IE he's alleging that had this merely been a poem, song, or short story, it wouldn't have come to this, but because it was a video game design, the kid is being more harshly treated than someone else, due to a bias on the part of the prosecutor.

@GoodRobotUs: "This is getting more and more a matter for the 14th Amendment."

What does the 14th Amendment have to do with any of this? The 14th deals with Citizenship and Civil Rights, especially with regard to racial discrimination. How does that apply to gamers?

@JB, others: "I’m sorry, but can you explain to me why individuals, based on mental health examinations and suspected of being an imminent danger to themselves or others, should be legally allowed to purchase fire arms? Explain to me why people like Seung-Hui Cho should be allowed to purchase weapons legally?"

That's a very good point, but there are already laws in place regarding this. What is needed is better ENFORCEMENT of the existing laws.

Virginia's gun laws: Max 1 gun per month, State AND Federal background check. Other than that, fairly lax overall. http://www.stategunlaws.org/viewstate.php?st=VA

There is one very important question that SHOULD be asked in the Virginia Tech case. Are the health care providers that Cho was diagnosed by required to submit the diagnosis to any government agencies? If they were, and failed to do so, then they may be culpable in the matter; their lack of reporting may be a critical matter. If it was reported properly, the sale may have been blocked by either the State or Federal background check.

And again, even with enforcement, that won't stop them from buying a Glock (or even a Zip gun) from some thug out of the back of his car...

oops, IllSpirit already covered the Terrorist Hoax Improvements Act.

Insanity.

tollwutig, the kid who made the Counterstrike map was doing that outside of school. Didn't help him one bit.

The details about this partcular case are a little vague, and there's a pretty good chance (IMHO) that the whole "I was just working on a FPS design" are just a clever legal defense tactic, but still, these two events illustrate the sad reality of fear mongering in the US.

How the fuck did we get here? And why aren't smart (I've lost hope for politicians and police already) people voicing their concerns about these sort of developments (incl. the Boston Aqua Teen Hunger Force stupidity)?

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070508-mooninites-meet-the-terror...

I hope to God the first person to violate that new law is some police officer's son.

"...A notebook detailing the boy’s plan to shoot as many as 30 fellow students."

Going by this report (which is almost certainly biased, but the question is how much) they did the right thing. A plan to kill students at a school is evidence of conspiracy to commit murder however you dress it up.

The game plan argument could only succeed if it were really arranged like a game. Does it mention victims by name? Are there any weapons or powerups strewn about on the design? Do they have spawn points? Does it go over the top, with (e.g.) zombie stuff or demons? Does it give a single linear plan (go here, then go there) or is it based on choices (what if the player goes in here?)? How does it end, with an exit, a boss enounter, or suicide/no ending? Does the kid have other game plans or any history of game creation? All these things could be used to determine whether or not it was a real threat or actually just a game plan, but it still resembles a plot to kill and so should be investigated as such.

some how I dont believe the part:

Lance Timmering was arrested Monday after the principal of Northport High discovered a notebook

So the principal was strolling in the hallway/classroom and said hmmm lets look at that book.


If anything he was told and wasnt even told the correct information.

And if it really does turn out to be only a video game, there's a new Federal law in the works which would let the city sue the family blind for creating a "hoax."

See also: Mooninites, meet the Terrorist Hoax Improvements Act (Ars Technica)

@Shoehorn: Please leave gun control issues out of the matter, OK? Tighter gun control laws won't keep guns out of the hands of people who plan to use them illegally.

In general: This is still overreaction. Does the kid have a history of mental disturbance/illness? Is he prone to acting out in violence? People are being absurdly reactionary over these school shootings, and jumping at shadows.

I agree completely with Nekojin. As mentioned before, there is no proof that he was even planning to shoot up the school. And all of this, I think, is just to implicate video games as sources of more violence, and the drive-by media (to use Rush's expression) is just trying to 'prove' their point.

And all of this reminds me so much of that Harris levels urban legend, back after Columbine, how his DOOM levels were 'designed to look like' the school.

The video segment seems like the police/school overreacted, and threw him in jail based on a discussion 2 teachers aides overheard.

The article on the other hand talks all about this notebook, and how they considered that plus the discussion to be worthy of calling the police over.

I'm willing to bet the kid will get off once they have someone who's not a fear monger examine the notebook, but I can understand their reaction once they started to look into things. First they had a worrying discussion. Not in itself enough, but enough to warrant looking at the notebook. And then the notebook, which as (so far) reported, seems to raise some warning bells as well. Maybe not enough to throw him in jail, but enough to get the police involved.

I agree that there was overreaction. With the parents involved, it's clear that they know about what the kid is up to, and the police likely already tore the house apart looking for a weapons stash. Give the kid a break already and admit that it was all a misunderstanding and panic as a result of recent events...

@Nekojin: I am not laying the blame on lax gun laws, nor am I saying that tighter controls would prevent anything.

I am drawing attention to the fact that people are blaming video games as a factor in these shootings, instead of other things which I believe contribute much more, ie. exposure to media coverage of other shootings or coverage of the war in Iraq (REAL violence), the access that mentally unstable people have to firearms, the further bullying and ostracism of different "outsider" groups in schools due to their stereotyping in the news and by experts, etc.

If this kid was truly planning on murdering school mates, then I am glad that he was caught before he could go through with it. However, it depresses me in 2 ways.

Firstly, the mass 24-7 coverage of these sensless killings gives them so much exposure that they seem like the "norm" to disaffected students. If they are having problems, the media coverage makes acting out in rage seems more and more to be a viable option, as opposed to getting help or counselling. Add in the lax gun laws and you have depressed or mentally unstable people with access to firearms who are immersed in an environment where every little detail about school shootings is dissected on television and is explained/debated/described on every single news program. Not a healthy situation to have. Yet, these same media institutions continue to have inflammatory and dishonest guests on their shows pushing their own agenda. This is like starting a bonfire and then asking people to tell the public "What caused this fire?".

The other thing that upsets me is that the Massacre chasers with their anti video games agenda seem to have given society a new excuse to allow killers a chance at a reduced sentence. Again, let us imagine this teen was going to commit an atrocity at his school. He was caught early, but now he is using the furore and rumour mongering to try and get out of it. This happened in the Devin Moore case where Jack Thompson tried to put words in the murderers mouth to the effect of "I would not have killed those police if I hadn't played that game".
If a man is drinking in a bar and is angered when his sports team loses, then gets into a fight and kills a man later, he would be laughed out of court if his defense tried to blame it on the game, "If his team had only won he wouldn't have killed him". But because many lawyers are counting on the fact that most judges/jurors are older and have no idea about video games, this "insanity by way of video game" plea is actually being attempted in courts.

I recall that after Columbine, there were at least two more school shootings in North America within 1 month, so yes, copycats are abound and they got away with it because law enforcement said it could not happen here.

I can't speak for this person's state of mind and neither can the police. They only have the visible evidence to deal with which is a notebook detailing a mass murder attempt. It's called erring on the side of caution and I would say the police did the right thing.

I don't think many people read the article + heard the vid.

There are conflicting details on it all. First, the article says something otherwise, and the video states teacher AIDES overheard him.

If it was overhearing, I don't really get it, they could've overheard another kid saying something or that they didn't hear the "I'm making a video game" detail.

Sadly, I don't think we'll ever get the full details on the matter. The kid is likely to have his record stained just so some new prosecutor will be "praised" in the eyes of the public.

Ok... where is the line on writing something down and it becoming a threat? To me this kid was arrested for writing something about shooting 30 people! Should the kid be checked out and maybe get some help sure thing but arrested? Granted we don't have the full story and we don't know if the kid wanted his notebook to be found or not. We don't know if he named teachers or other kids. Heck the 30 people could of been terrorists or something. Maybe the kid saw Red Dawn and thought it would be cool to create something defending his school. But damn this is scary and at want point is this line drawn at. How many fiction books out there have plots on attacking Washington DC. How many of them plot on trying to kill important people of the world? I know I read a good many of them how come they don't get arrested for threats? Again where is this fine line?

I'm going with tollwutig here wtf was he thinking bringing it to school. He could very well have just been working on the design for a game, but I'm guessing he isn't the brightest bulb on the tree if he thought it OK to bring it to school.

Given his stupidity we're then brought back to the whole "not having enough info" and we never will... his actions will be mutated by the media until everyone is against him without the true events and actions actually coming into the light.

Well I'm off to watch Fox news to get the fats behind this case and wait for JT's comments on this recent event.

Ugh, a touchy issue. I think we're lacking information. It is basically one person's word against another, and a lack of clarity on the issue itself.

I'd like to see these "details" he wrote, and have a writing expert analyze it.
I know some people are unfairly punished, but I think they should've investigated more into the matter than just simply jail him.

So far, I think we're in the dark, and the news may be propoganda.


From now on, I guess these details must have a disclaimer of a sort. "NOTE: THIS IS A FICTIONAL WORK"

And I forgot to mention, of course, certain details will be suppressed by mainstream news and crackpot wannabe lawyers. IF the note was indeed a work on a game design, that will disappear, and that it was a design, for, I dunno, a training simulator.

I agree, we need more info before we can formulate opinions.

It Just shows you have to be careful what you take to school. I wonder though, did some teacher just snatch his notebook or did he leave it wide open to the page displaying his designs.

Its better to just leave it at home and not have to deal with this garbage.

Minority report anyone?

wow... just... wow... I'm not sure the dad was helping the case any by saying it was an FPS project. I'm going to wait for more details to surface, which if we know these video game based charges, wont take long.

[...] A Washington State teen has been arrested for an alleged school shooting plot. His father says the 17-year-old was working on a design for a first-person shooter game and that the boy s arrest was politically motivated. … …Sportzia More [...]

For the record: The notebook Lance had was a 70 page notebook with only 1 page and 2 lines in it (the start of the game) No names of people or teachers, but it did say the cooks were the 1st to take out. For the record Lance has been writing stories since 2nd grade, and yes sometimes his stories have been known to be shocking, but is that not what writers do? Lance told over 15 people about this game about a week b-4 his doom, in order to get more students to help him with it. some did some did not. Thanks Signed Lance's Dad.

June 11th Lance was fine $75.00 for Disorderly Conduct - Like I said, it was a game . (Lance's Dad)