Grossman on VA Tech Massacre: Blame the Games

May 19, 2007 -
While Jack Thompson's attempts to blame the Virginia Tech massacre on video games didn't go over so well, another critic of video game violence has weighed in on the Virginia Tech massacre.

As reported by the NewsMax site, David Grossman (left) and a colleague, Frank Borelli, seem to point the finger at violent video games. From the article:
Shooter Cho Seung-Hui was moving through Norris Hall methodically firing his weapon as if he were playing a first-person shooter (FPS) video game...

One of the world's foremost experts on the causes of violence, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, who has seen confidential information stemming from the investigation, tells NewsMax in an exclusive interview that Cho was "deeply influenced by media violence."

...Grossman forwarded an e-mail from Borelli... Borelli suggests that intensive extensive FPS gaming experience helped Cho fire with devastating accuracy...

Borelli cited an "anonymous reliable source" for the information that Cho fired three shots into nearly every victim. Some video games require the firing of multiple shots at each target.

GP: Anonymous source? The fact that Cho fired multiple shots at victims was widely reported in the mainstream press.
"The rest is quite obvious," Borelli wrote Grossman. "Even if [Cho] only hit each victim once, he had a 32 percent hit ratio, which is better than most cop shootings."

GP: But wouldn't most cop shootings take place under the stress of confronting a bad guy who is shooting back? Cho, an angry sociopath clearly unburdened by any sense of human compassion, fired his weapons into small rooms crowded with unarmed people at close range.

In fact, in this USA Today report, Virginia Tech victim Colin Goddard describes being shot once by Cho, who then goes around the room shooting those who were already down. He fired two more bullets into Goddard. It seems like it would be difficult to miss under those conditions, FPS experience or not.

UPDATE: Frank Borelli has posted in comments, clarifying some of what was reported by the NewsMax site. We greatly appreciate his taking the time to do so.


So for all those individuals who are just a natural at shooting a basketball or hitting a ball do we put it on NBA 04 or can they honestly just have what it takes to be a athlete.

Same would go for a person who can shoot a gun. If you have it you have it. Training does pay off. We are taught that one thing leads to another but love to blame whats in front of us.

Why do people like Grossman, Borelli and Thompson lie? It's very simple: money. Money for their appearances. Money for their paltry debates. Money for their insipid articles and opinions. Money by the 24-hour news networks that prey upon fear. They have no concern in the world for the victims.

It's all about profiting from tragedy.

That's what makes them all massacre chasers. Or, should I say, profiteers?

Sounds like these guys are just two more trying to use the VT situation as a tool for their own cause. None of that is conclusive evidence at all that video games are responsible for this shooting.

It's comforting, knowing that one day the people in charge will know even the first thing about video games.

it wasn't fps games that taught him how to shoot it was the game genie stuck in the back of his neck that gave him infinite ammo,infinite insanity and a wall hack to magically still miss 68% of the time versus mostly still targets >.>yeah fps and game genie helped him just like how japan porn dating sims made me a trillionaire pimp >.>.

maybe we should replace all of our brains with commadore 64s so that maybe grossmans bullshit sandwich would make any sense since we all know having the same memory and logic capacity as grossman will help us understand him better/end sarcasm.

Honestly does anyone with a shred of common sense actually believe this?

I found an article by Frank Borelli where he talks about violent video games (and he precises that games don't kill people) :

By the way, video games nor violent media of any kind actually desensitize people to real life violence. It can desensitize you to the violence in those particular mediums, but not in the real world. It would have to already be in your nature to have an indifference toward it. I don't claim to be a "expert" in this area, and they may be evidence to prove me wrong.

But, I'm speaking from my own perspective. I played and watched some of the most vile and violent material to ever grace a screen, but when something even remotely disturbing happens I'm not immune to it as some people would lead others to believe. Recently, I was walking through the house and out of no where a mouse came scurrying out and I stepped on it by accident. I didn't even know what it was at first as I hadn't looked down why I was walking. I just felt a crunch and heard popping/cracking sounds. I hoped off whatever it was to see a mouse lying there twitching, dying. It was just a mouse, and I hate them. But I felt angry, sad, and sickened that I had done this to it.

Now, bear in mind that this is nothing compared to what I play or watch on almost a daily basis since, well, I can't remember. But yet I had all of this horrible feelings about it, about killing something, and the feeling and sounds I heard stick with me and disturb me far greater than I would have ever imagined.

However, going by what people say about video games and movies desensitizing people, well, if that were the case then I, especially due to my love of all things blood and gore filled, shouldn't have felt a thing. I should have cared at all, I should have felt indifferent about it. In fact, going some of what many do say, I probably should have enjoyed it since our "evil" video games make us crave real life violence.

It may sound stupid to some of you, my example. But it does mean quite a bit to me, because after all if what they said were true it wouldn't have bothered me a bit.

David Grossman, Frank Borelli, and especially Jack Thompson can all kiss my ass. Not one of them know what the hell they're talking about and yet they have no problem acting like they do. You can't become a better marksman by playing video games, that's just not possible. To assume it is, is well, down right absurd.

That's like saying if I play enough Phoenix Wright I could be a top notch attorney! Or if I play Cooking Momma, I'd be a great chef in real life.

It's people like these who cause the problems in society, because they refuse to actually accept that the person(s) responsible for these sorts of disturbing things could actually be insane and are completely solely responsible for everything they do. Instead they want to blame a movie, or a music CD (Rap/Hip Hop, or Metal and Rock), and most favored of all video games. Why is this acceptable? I guess because for these nimrods, it's easier to just blame something else than it is to actually do some research into these people's background and mental stability to find out the real cause of these incidents.

David Grossman, Frank Borelli, Jack Thompson, and anyone else like you idiots. If you read this, go fuck yourselfs!

GP: But wouldn’t most cop shootings take place under the stress of confronting a bad guy who is shooting back?

On top of that, cops aren't as well trained as most people think. On average, most regular officers only receive a day or two worth of live-fire training throughout the five or six weeks of police academy. After that, most officers are only required to go to the range once or twice a year to re-qualify; if at all. There are lots of officers (especially in quiet, suburban places) who have never fired their service weapon again after graduating from the academy..

Cho, on the other hand, allegedly frequented a range near the university during the two months prior to the attack. Considering that he bought the P22 first, and that its ammo is extremely cheap (under $15 for a box of 500), he could have fired thousands of practice rounds in those two months.

And WTF is this cover/concealment nonsense Grossman is rambling on about? Nobody there had a chance to return fire! Not the police, as they didn't enter the building until Cho offed himself. Not the (at least) two students in the building, who were trained and licensed by the Commonwealth of Virginia to carry concealed handguns, but were disarmed by campus policy. And not the two victims who the range master saw practicing at the same range as Cho, who were also disarmed by school policy. Honestly, it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel. :/

Grrr, my html tags didn't close.

GP: But wouldn’t most cop shootings take place under the stress of confronting a bad guy who is shooting back?

On top of that, cops aren't as well trained as most people think. On average, most regular officers only receive a day or two worth of live-fire training throughout the five or six weeks of police academy. After that, most officers are only required to go to the range once or twice a year to re-qualify; if at all. There are lots of officers (especially in quiet, suburban places) who have never fired their service weapon again after graduating from the academy..

Cho, on the other hand, allegedly frequented a range near the university during the two months prior to the attack. Considering that he bought the P22 first, and that its ammo is extremely cheap (

Here's a couple facts:
1) I have played games since I was 5 years old
2) I learned how to accurately fire a pellet gun whem I was 11, not from Doom, no but from going to a Rifle club and learning so that I could go hunting.
3) I have a Hunter Safety and plan to get an FAC in a year or so.
4) I hunt deer, and ducks and that has taught me how to shoot far better than any video game I have ever played.

Funny, though I closed that.

Shooter Cho Seung-Hui was moving through Norris Hall methodically firing his weapon as if he were playing a first-person shooter (FPS) video game…

By holding down the left mouse button?

Oooohh Dave Grossman's back ! I was wondering where he was, because I had heard nothing from him for a while. Despite Dawson College shootings, despite Emsdetten shootings, nothing. And now, with V-Tech massacre, I was really wondering where he was.

The problem is that it's not really Dave Grossman, but this Frank Borelli quoted by Grossman. I'm a bit disappointed. I expected a "Teaching kids to kill part. 2", no less.

See, this is why I keep saying it.

The industry needs to lay out a standing ultimatum.

"Bad mouth us, We'll see you in court."

It would be the only way to silence idiots like grossman. If he spouted his crap and was facing slander suits every time? Oh, he'd either shut up or go bankrupt in no time flat.

I'm so sick of this pansy ass crap from the Industry, just sitting back and taking this kinda crap. Where is the ECA, why aren't they trying to counter idiots like this directly? Enough is Enough!

Hal, We supported you when you started the ECA, Time to start putting it to good use.

enviado por: Lúcia Adélia

Estou indignada e peço licença para usar este espaço para divulgar esse absurdo que a rede globo cometeu com a Comunidade Quilombola da Bahia.

16 DE MAIO DE 2007 - 16h38

Comunidade acusa racismo em \"Jornal Nacional\" e Rede Globo

A Comunidade São Francisco do Paraguaçu, de Cahoeira, na Bahia, acusa a TV Globo de veicular uma reportagem racista, no Jornal Nacional de segunda-feira (14), contra os moradores negros daquela região do recôncavo baiano.

Segundo a comunidade, a reportagem tem o claro objetivo de desqualificar a Comunidade São Francisco do Paraguaçu e seus moradores, justamente no momento em que o Estado brasileiro está para reconhecê-los como descendentes de quilombolas.

A nota também critica a distorção dos fatos para criminalizar os moradores da comunidade. \"Estamos decepcionados com a falta de dignidade do jornalista que expôs seu nome numa reportagem fraudulenta, pois as imagens do desmatamento de madeira apresentado na reportagem não foram filmadas em nossa comunidade\".

Confira a íntegra da nota:

Comunidade Remanescente de Quilombo São Francisco Do Paraguaçu

As falsidades veiculadas pelo Jornal Nacional da Rede Globo de Televisão, no dia 14 de maio deste ano, \"Crime no quilombo - suspeitas de fraude e extração de madeira de Mata Atlântica\", repetem na história o que significou o 14 de maio de 1888 para a população negra no Brasil, dia seguinte à abolição oficial da escravatura.

O dia 14 daquela época significou o acirramento das relações escravistas, da violência racial contra negras e negros, e a tentativa de exterminá-los através de inúmeras medidas de exclusão e apartheid, dando continuidade ao processo de exclusão social e criminalização da população negra.

Passados cem anos continuamos a assistir às práticas racistas, novamente a covardia daqueles que atacam as comunidades negras utilizando as estruturas poderosas de dominação que se manifestam através da veiculação de uma reportagem fraudulenta e tendenciosa, sem oferecer à comunidade nenhuma oportunidade para se defender.

Nossa comunidade assistiu a reportagem exibida no Jornal Nacional da Rede Globo com profunda indignação diante da atitude racista expressa na má fé e na falta de ética de um meio de comunicação poderoso que está submetido a interesses perversos e tenta esmagar uma comunidade negra historicamente excluída.

Já esperávamos por esta reportagem, pois fomos testemunhas do teatro que foi armado por ocasião das filmagens, onde boa parte da comunidade envolvida na luta pela regularização do território quilombola nem sequer foi ouvida, visto que a equipe de reportagem se recusou a registrar qualquer versão contrária aos interesses dos fazendeiros, cortando falas e utilizando de métodos persuasivos, já que demonstrou expressamente o objetivo de manipular e deturpar a realidade, inclusive.

Tentamos conversar com os prepostos da TV Bahia, filial da rede Globo, mas fomos ignorados. Logo vimos a vinculação da reportagem com os poderosos locais que tentam explorar nossa comunidade. Diante deste sentimento de indignação com a reportagem fraudulenta exibida hoje vimos a público divulgar as verdades que Globo não divulga:

Historicamente, nossa comunidade ocupa este território. Os relatos dos mais idosos remetem nossa presença a muitas gerações. Ali sempre praticamos um modo de vida fruto de uma longa tradição deixada por nossos ancestrais. Extraímos da Floresta a Piaçava, o Dendê, a Castanha, e tantos outros produtos.

Extraímos tantos tipos de cipós diferentes que usamos para fazer cofos, cestos e tantos outros artesanatos aprendidos com nossos avós. Nós amamos a floresta e a defendemos. Nossa luta para defender a floresta causa a ira de poderosos interesses que desejam o desmatamento para a grande criação de gado que cresce no recôncavo.

Estamos decepcionados com a falta de dignidade do jornalista que expôs seu nome numa reportagem fraudulenta, pois as imagens do desmatamento de madeira apresentado na reportagem não foram filmadas em nossa comunidade, sendo que a pessoa flagrada no corte de madeiras não pertence à comunidade de São Francisco do Paraguaçu, confirmando a manipulação dolosa, visto que as falas foram cortadas e editadas com o objetivo de transmitir uma mensagem mentirosa e caluniosa.

Perguntamos aos responsáveis pela matéria: por que não relataram as vultosas multas não pagas ao Ibama pelos fazendeiros? Por que não mostraram os mangues cercados que inviabilizam a sobrevivência da comunidade?

Desta maneira, os poderosos que nos oprimem preferem partir para a calúnia, fraude e abuso do poder econômico. Tentam assim dissimular, já que sabem da força da verdade e do nosso direito. O Sr. Ivo, que aparece na reportagem e se diz dono da nossa área, é um médico com forte influência política na região; à frente de seus interesses está o seu Genro, conhecido como Lú Cachoeira, filho de um ex-prefeito e eterno candidato a prefeito. Lu Cachoeira tem um cargo de confiança no Governo do Estado como assessor especial na CAR (Coordenação de Ação Regional) e utiliza sua influência política para perseguir a comunidade.

Esta família poderosa tem feito várias investidas contra a comunidade utilizando, inclusive, capangas, pistoleiros, ameaçando a comunidade, violentando crianças, perseguindo idosos, inclusive, utilizando métodos torpes refletidos nas ações violentas de policiais militares não fardados a serviço da família Santana que pode ser comprovado através de relatório da Polícia Federal que já teve diversas vezes na comunidade para nos defender.

Imbuídos do sentimento de justiça, não podemos compactuar com atitudes que visam reverter as conquistas democráticas de reconhecimento de direitos da população negra, um verdadeiro afronte aos artigos 215, 216 e o artigo 68 das Disposições Transitórias da Constituição Federal.

O povo negro e as comunidades quilombolas, cientes de que o caminho de reparação das injustiças raciais é irreversível e que o direito constitucional à propriedade de seus territórios tradicionalmente ocupados é uma conquista da democracia brasileira, não sucumbirá aos interesses poderosos que durante toda história do Brasil promoveram atitudes autoritárias e de desrespeito ao Estado Democrático de Direito.

Lamentamos a covardia daqueles que usam o poder da mídia e do dinheiro para oprimir e perseguir comunidades tradicionais. Já estamos acostumados com esta prática perversa. Nosso povo resistiu até aqui enfrentando o peso da escravidão. FIÉIS A NOSSOS ANCESTRAIS, CONTINUAREMOS FIRMES, DE PÉ, LUTANDO PELA LIBERDADE!


Pedimos às entidades, instituições e movimentos solidários com a luta do povo quilombola que manifestem repúdio à Rede Globo de Televisão e ao Jornal Nacional mandando e-mails e/ou cartas para os seguintes endereços: Rua Von Martius, nº 22 - Jardim Botânico - CEP: 22.460-040 - RJ. E-mail:

Observatório do Direito à Comunicação


I think the real problem gamers are having is not so much with the idea that these games de-sensitize people to violent images and situations, that, I think, is something that ALL Media is going to have to face up to soon, that, whilst they are not to blame for it, there are Phsycotics out there who are set off by 'triggers', and violent Media unknowingly contains a lot of those triggers.

The problem is, those triggers are what people buy games and watch movies for, the high-tension car-chase, the face off against an enemy that far outnumbers you etc. It's the people who have a problem drawing the line between fantasy and reality that are in danger. The part that many politicians don't understand is that Video Games do NOT erase that line, any more than books, music or TV did, people learn to play by using fantasy, and 99% of people are perfectly capable of swapping between the two states without any trouble whatsoever.

I think it's the victimisation that is the problem more than the idea that Media content can have an adverse effect. The whole Interactive aspect is kind of silly, it's like saying there's a risk that Will Wheaton would have died trying to build a cloaking device for his car.

I suppose it was explained best by an article, I can't remember where, which stated...

Imagine a game where you have to stack dead bodies in as small a space as possible that are being harvested from a mortuary above, the bodies are rigor-mortised into one of 4-5 positions which can be interlocked. Once a complete line of biomatter has been created, it is absorbed. Now think of Tetris. The part of the brain you use to play both of those games is [i]exactly the same[/i]. The first may contains less 'comfortable' descriptions and images, but that doesn't make it violent.

It is this which most politicians are getting confused about. All most FPS shooters do is enhance the hand-eye co-ordination level, in fact, if the 'punishment fit the crime' and commiting a crime meant 'Game Over' it would actually mean the player was under a great deal more stress and the situation would be far more 'realistic' from an emotional point of view.

So yes, Media needs looking at, however, this habit of scapegoating games is wearisome and politicians really should know better than to listen to this kind of rhetoric by now.

Grossman's gotta go.

"Shooter Cho Seung-Hui was moving through Norris Hall methodically firing his weapon as if he were playing a first-person shooter (FPS) video game…"

Exactly! Because id Games copyrighted moving through halls and methodically firing a weapon back when they made Wolfenstein 3D. Since then, they have only allowed other game developers to use this original concept in their own FPS games, provided they pay the proper royalties.

...Seriously though, ART IMITATES LIFE. Cho could have learned the fine art of "gun goes bang" from hundreds of other sources besides video games, and considering that he didn't play games in college, it's foolish to think that the time he spent playing Counter-Strike in high school was his primary motivation. I can't believe these anti-game media whores keep trying to squeeze blood out of the V-Tech victims' headstones.

(Okay, that last bit might be a slight exaggeration, but the metaphor demanded to be written.)

I, once again, fall back to the Robida case where the DA Paul Walsh, Jr indicated that John Bruce, who had claimed to receive information from investigators as well as the DA's office, did not, in fact, receive such information and if he had, it would have been obtained illegally.

This interview by Grossman, is a clear admission of tampering with and influencing the investigation, most notably the evidence and/or witnesses, of this case. If this proves true, that investigators illegally handed over evidence or witness testimony to individuals not directly related to the investigation of this case, then the SBI of VA should take over the investigation, Grossman and Borelli should be arrested for interfering with the investigation, and so should this "anonymous source" as well as other charges be brought as necessary.

A fair, intelligent, ethical investigation cannot possibly be performed when massacre chasers and agenda seekers work to influence and interfer with an appropriate investigation just so they can push their personal, religious, and/or political agendas.

NW2K Software

Why does that picture make me think he's telling me how big of a fish he caught? Oh, in other news, this guy's statements is just riddled with flaws and idiocy. Maybe the picture is telling us how big the flaws in his argument are.

"Many video games today do make a difference between cover and concealment, but some also allow players to destroy barriers by shooting them enough times."

Or you can just turn on your wall hax! They do have that in RL right?

"I’ll bet you five bucks the anoyomus source was Jack Thompson."

That's a fool's bet there.

"For some reason these two seem to say that how Cho shot poeple is proof that he was influenced by FPS games, and yet the biggest piece of evidence, Cho ACUTALLY owning any violent video games is still missing… so far, the is no evidence that Cho played an FPs game since he entered college…"

Didn't you hear Jack in the Robida case? The games were ditched. Cho probably dropped them in a well somewhere.[/sarcasm]

@ Tina Russell

Keep in mind that Cho was already ruled by a court to have mental disorders and a threat to himself. Yet even though he was ruled to have mental disorders, you expect him not to be cool and calm when he committed this heinous acts? If he weren't cool and calm when doing something like he did, (in other words, if he committed this act in a "normal" way, by being nervous and shaky) then he wouldn't have been considered mentally disturbed.

It's quite unbelievable that people expected Cho to act the way normal people act, even though we already know that he wasn't normal, and was even ruled to be a threat by a court.

Another Thompson-associated, mentally-bankrupt moron? Why am I not surprised?

Every time I read this kind of stupidity from people that have more of a voice in the public than us makes me sick. Because at least some other idiot with lower IQ than the guy that said that is gonna listen (even if lower IQ is almost imposible)

I just would like that my voice would reach everyone that read that article to give the information this guy missed, even when its likely that he HAS the information and is just out to get video games.

If my voice couldnt reach the readers at least let my hand reach the idiot that does this stuff. "BITCH SLAP"

"I'm lucky I'm not Pinocchio, because my nose would be THIS BIG by now!"

I am curious why nobody has done a study of measuring how well people can shoot after playing an fps game to prove it doesn't teach one how to competently fire a weapon. Take 2 groups of people who have never played a fps and never fired a gun. One group plays the fps and then fires, one just fires. I'm confident we would see no discernible difference. They could also see how well they could reload a weapon based solely on gameplay. Funny thing is, there's no "X" button on most guns...

My scientific method is probably not totally correct, but you get the idea. It would be an interesting study, would it not?

FPSes can, in theory, desensitize you. Lots of things can happen, in theory. In theory, communism works. ;P

The point is: It's not close to being proven. Not at all close. Crazy people have gone on rampages before. Crazy people will go on rampages again. And I further submit, that if you really think about it deep down, games of any kind are horrible training tools for almost anything. Single player FPSes give the player unreasonable physical characteristics, which you can't rely on in real life. Team based FPS games have, y'know, teammates. And they still have unrealistic physical characteristics (though usually not so profound). Grand Theft Auto is basically total fiction. I can't think of a single truly realistic thing in its gameplay mechanics. MVP Baseball won't help me learn to hit a big-time, 12-6 curveball, or even identify it coming out of a pitcher's hand.

There are lots of theories about what games can train you to do, mostly coming from people who don't actually seem to play many (if any) games. I personally have yet to see even the slightest hint of proof in my real life. Doing stuff in real life trains you to do it in real life. I don't drive well at high speed because Gran Turismo allows me to simulate driving over 200km/h and keep my nerves cool. I drive well at high speed because I have learned, in real cars, how to drive at high speed. Hell, I can't even drive stick in games. I can in real life.

Sorry for the double post, but I noticed a silly disparity there. The "train to be a killer" in the first line is meant to be the unfeeling homicidal type referenced in the last line. Heh.

Matthew if you are a killer chances are you already are unfeeling and systemmatic. I mean if killing people made you feel very sad you wouldn't do it, would you (unless you're in the military).

To play devil's advocate for a moment, I accept FPSes *could* train you to be a killer.

The idea that they train you to shoot a gun is ridiculous because, as everyone is quick to point out, controllers aren't guns. Even pretend guns aren't great at training you to use a real one, so a mouse and keyboard combo doesn't even stand a chance.

What FPSes can train you to do (in theory) is detach from reality. Suppose you are playing Generic Shooter III in the Commercial Building (Skyscraper) Stage. You just fought your way through Crate-Filled Sewer Stage and are dreadfully low on health. As you walk through the hallways, what do you do? You check the doors as you pass because you don't want to miss an enemy and have them shoot you in the back. Systematic annihilation of the enemies is a common part of FPS playing, even going as far as to encourage you to hunt them down just in case they should pop up later. You can take more punishment than the enemy, so you roll your tank of a player through the scenery and take down anything that looks like it might open fire on you. You wince in comic pain when your aim slips and you end up nailing someone in the groin instead of the head. You laugh when you use the physics engine to score an unusual kill. You get excited when you see a collection of gas cylinders because you know you might be able to set someone on fire with them.

So, could a game train you to become a killer? No.
Could it train a killer to become an unfeeling, systematic mass murderer? Maybe.

I'm not familiar with the game that encourages one to pick up a gun and fire at unarmed civilians. Which game teaches you that when, why and how to want? I'd argue that anything short of a game that does exactly that isn't enough of a legitimate training tool.

And Thompson (at least) has, in the past, argued that games teach you everything you need to know to commit crimes like this. Everything, to me, includes operating a gun. If they don't mean that, they need to say it.

Well, I don't know that I consider Thompson when trying to look at the more rational side of the argument.

Odd.. unless your playing a heavily team oriented game on a server where the people have a very team oriented play style your average game is a complete clusterfuck of people screaming hax, noob, and cheap among other things.

Like I said in the last thread, Grossman's probably just jealous JT's gotten all the attention of late and is probably ticked off at him for taking credit for a term he invented, so he's probably just trying to get face time.

So who is this "anonymous source?" I call BS on that one. When you've got "anonymous sources" going around saying this when all othe other evidence that has come out states the contrary, that's just pulling stuff out of your ass. Saying you have an "anonymous source" just means you can make whatever assertion you want and don't have to back it up.

Last year I worked for Dunbar Armored as an armored car driver and guard. My job required me to carry a gun, so I had to attend mandatory courses in firearms as part of my training plus get a gun permit. For target practice we were each issued a .357 Magnum (the standard company sidearm). When it came time to shoot, I assumed my firing stance, held the gun properly, aimed and squeezed off six rounds in quick succession. When it came time to reload, while others fumbled around in loading the chambers, I calmly loaded each bullet and just to show off, spun the chamber and flicked my wrist to load it back in. When the instructor gave the order to shoot once more, I assumed my stance and fired six more rounds.

I scored 84% in accuracy for that class. I HAD NEVER FIRED A REAL GUN BEFORE. Did video games teach me all that? They probably just taught me how to aim better, but that's it. Everything else I learned about firing a gun came from movies, TV shows, documentaries and the games of Lazer Tag I played when I was a teenager.

So what does this prove? Grossman and JT may be right up to a point. Games do play a factor insofar as they may teach you how to aim, but they go far beyond that; the rest of their assertions being made up of half-truths and outright lies. The bottom line is that it's still the person behind the gun that is responsible. And if that person is messed-up in the head, chances are he's going to kill someone.

I've played a lifetime of games including many FPS. Do they desensitize me and make me more apt to kill someone if I had a gun? Do they make me value human life any less? NO! I play FPS games because they are simply that. I know in my own mind that what I am shooting at isn't real, that those are not real human beings and there are no consequences. I would never shoot at a person in real life unless I knew for certain that my own life was in danger, and in such cases I would not hesitate. But normally I would NEVER kill anyone.

To hang the blame on video games is irresponsible. It's a straw-man argument. The real issue is the person themselves. And if he takes a gun and shoots a lot of people, chances are there were far more significant factors at play than just video games.

I play video games, I know how to shoot. Yet I would never take a human life without good reason. How do you explain me, Mr. Grossman and Mr. Thompson? How do you explain me?

I just want to throw this out there, even though I still think the anti-game side is pretty ridiculous:

I see a lot of people shooting out the argument that an fps can't train you to handle a gun. I don't think anyone's claiming that anyone learned to use the gun itself on a game. They're saying that people learn when, why, and, most importantly, how to want to use a gun.


You too? I used to play Q-Zar-style laser tag quite a bit, and my hit percentages were usually low due to my habit of double-tapping targets.

But yeah... as earlier posters have noted, FPSes are not good at teaching you how to operate real firearms. I'm not a /super/ FPS player but I do reasonably well -- but I'm still not a great shot in RL. Maybe I don't have the right 'murder simulators'?

Or maybe this is all just horsecrap, like Pat Pulling's self-serving crusade against D&D so many years ago.



Here's one article.

Also, my trip down the Wikipedia rathole has led me to discover the sad tale of the Uireyeong massacre of 1982. Fifty-seven people killed by a cop on a rampage. Thirty-five more wounded. That's more death (and casualties) than I can find referenced in any other mass/spree killing.

I doubt he trained using video games.

He knew that shooting someone multiple times was more likely to kill them! That sort of knowledge could ONLY come from a video game!

Seriously, will it be considered evidence that he aimed his rifle at his victims instead of, you know, the other direction entirely? Because you need a video game to know that. Wait, what is this "gun" you speak of, anyway?


Jack can't be the source... Jack is an attention whore that loves being credited on everything he does... he wouldn't go anouynmous like that, he would be taking full credit for working with grossman


Well, they could have meant that the guy does know who the source actually is, but the source itself asked to remain anoynmous and not be openly credited for providing the information. it's really the only way a Anoynomous source could also be consdered reliable... I'd say there is probably a good chance that three shot thing is true (they did say most, not all)... but ofcourse, three shots ain't evidence for shit when it comes to pinning this massacre on video games... i mean really, if your going to kill someone it seems like common sence to use more then one bullet on the victim... unless you are certain you can hit them in a vital spot with one shot, you'll want to use more than one shot to make sure you hit a vital spot or severally injure them enough that they die from their injuries. and thinking about it 3 shots sounds like a blanced number... 2 shots and you may not have done enough, 4 shots and you may just be wasting ammo... Unless you actually check to see if the victim was dead, you really must use multiple shots to make sure you killed them.

This just in:

Cops end shooting rampage by camping all ammo spawn points. Shooter dead after being unable to find med-kit.

Details at 11.

@ Silver_Derstin
I spent to long typing, I knew there was a name for it.

@monte' & Bluewolf
Where can I read this? Sorry I'm out of the loop on most news. Stupid Germany.

I think the picture of him is silly, reminds me of those "how big" pics.

In either case, it must be insulting to the police force who go through obstacle courses, take intense driving techniques and practice at the shooting range, insulted that they have "poorer" accuracy than a video game player like Cho.

He was playing Basketball wasn't he? Omg, all the NBA players must be highly accurate killers!

I wonder if the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument applies to "anonymous sources"?

"Cho fired three shots into nearly every victim. Some video games require the firing of multiple shots at each target."
How can this be learned from video games? If he learned it from video games, he would have been going for "Head Shots", not multiple hits to the body.

He was using two handguns, and from the pictures that he sent to the news, He was dual wielding, how can you only shoot once? Natural instinct is to fire three shots. First one on target with primary, second one a bit wild, and a third one for good measure. This happens before you realize that the first one or two rounds hit.

Now if he was only using one handgun it would have been two shots a person, provided he was worried about missing and wanted to invoke maximum damage. Its a subconscious decision, that deals with your reaction time and thought process. Not something that is learned from video games or even the movies.

“Even if [Cho] only hit each victim once, he had a 32 percent hit ratio, which is better than most cop shootings.”
Um, lets think for a second, Most of his shots were likely at students who were not moving (hiding scared like they teach you in school), and in a closed classroom, maybe 20' to 30' Ft max, and he didn't care who they were. So a non moving 2'x3' target at 20'ft, indiscriminate of targets, How could he miss? Because he didn't know how to handle a gun. Darn those FPS.

Police officers are trying to protect people not kill them. They fire one shot per target, ONLY after identifying the target. The target is often moving, and they are often hesitant. Its not fair comparing a police officers skill to a mass murdering gunman, shooting stationary civilians. Its apples to oranges.

"Grossman talks about shooting through doors and how modern FPS games make clear the difference between cover and concealment."
I learned that from myth busters and the history channel, quick ban the discovery and history channel, its teaching our children how to kill!!!

Right on, I played Silent Scope the arcade version, and it didn't teach me how to use a sniper rifle. I played duck hunt, and it didn't teach me how to shoot ducks (Ducks with a pistol WTF!?!). I play counterstrike and it taught me that the hit boxes in that game are F'd up. If anything these games showed me how un-lifelike video games are.

Truly if video games teaches us how to kill arrest me now, before I go C&C on your town and level it with tanks.

Note: I am being highly sarcastic in some of my comments.

sighs, cho went to a shooting range for a month..........not video games....

Why am I not surprised that this story was covered by an extreme-right- wing "news" site thats is more known for its ad featuring a guy humping the floor than the accuracy of their "news"? Newsmax was probably the only site willing to give Grossman the time of day, as if his lack of credibility was bad enough for him.

And so Grossman just perpetually admitted himself to the "lying for profit under the guise of 'Teh Childrens'!" list.

Welcome and Salutations, dear Grossman. your host, Jack Thompson, will be waiting in his office ready to brainwa-- I mean educate you on the Evils of electronic media.

Hold it! Is Borelli part of the official investigation team? How can he rely on anonymous information, even if it looks like a common sense evidence, it should not be relied upon. Again, I don't know what to make of Grossman, he may be a psychologist, but his publications are nowhere in the psych literature.
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