May 21, 2007
On Thursday GamePolitics reported on a deal between retailer Best Buy and watchdog group Common Sense Media that places CSM's video game ratings alongside those of the ESRB on the BestBuy.com website.While GamePolitics commented at the time that the move didn't seem to bode well for the ESRB, the organization itself put on a brave face. Spokesman Eliot Mizrachi told GameDaily BIZ:
ESRB ratings are just one tool among many that consumers can and should use to help them make informed video game purchase decisions. Best Buy continues to be a strong supporter of ESRB ratings, and this move expands upon the resources they've been offering their customers...
But since the announcement a pair of knowledgable sources have painted a less optimistic picture of the Best Buy - Common Sense Media alliance. One industry insider told GamePolitics:
It really undermines the ESRB.
Another source, well-versed in the political aspects of video game content, saw the move as indicative of fading retailer confidence in the ESRB:
Really, it all goes back to Hot Coffee.
This individual claimed that retailers lost confidence in the industry's rating process during the 2005 scandal. The source also alleged that pressure from major retailers prompted the ESRB's public revelation that the Hot Coffee animations were included on the San Andreas retail disc by GTA developer Rockstar.
The source further added that ESRB president Patricia Vance's testimony before a contentious June, 2006 hearing of the House Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade, and Consumer Protection only served to increase retailers' concerns.
Finally, the source contended that, unlike legal restrictions aimed at game content, regulating the rating process would not be likely to trigger a First Amendment battle, thus making the ESRB a tempting target for politicians:
ESRB can’t solely rely on the First Amendment defense and that leaves them open for legislative interference.
Indeed, among active legislation, Sen. Sam Brownback's Truth in Video Game Ratings Act and Rep. Fred Upton's Video Game Decency Act both address aspects of the ESRB process.
Nor has Common Sense Media been especially supportive of the ESRB over the years. Said spokesman Peter Katz in a 2005 interview with the San Francisco Chronicle:
What we hear from parents a lot is, 'I finally took a look at Grand Theft Auto, and boy was I surprised." What that says to me, and it's scary, is that parents just don't know what's in the game.
GP: Let's face it - if Best Buy was confident in the industry's own ratings board, would it take the time and trouble to break ranks in such a fashion? No matter how you spin it, the new partnership between Best Buy and CSM is not good news for the ESRB.
Comments
Gee ya think!*Begin sarcasm* Hmmmmm What a shocker right there After all I mean it sure must be hard for parents to look at a game called GRAND THEFT AUTO and not register that it might not be a good game for little billy.....*end sarcasm*
Ignorant retarded morons with no commen sense or brains
That's because you're an idiot. I actually KNOW a woman like that. It's my uncle's girlfriend. A few years back, she bought GTA for her son (at the time 8 or 9 years old, i think) and thought the "M" stood for "Motor Vehicles."
Her husband (I forgot if he was already her ex at the time this happened) noted that Zack's friends always wanted to come over to play one of his games, and asked which it was. Mommy said "Oh, Grand Theft Auto." Daddy said "WTF lady don't you know what's in that game?" He then fired up the PS2 and showed her. Horrified, Mommy took the game away.
There are two ways in which she's not like the other parents. One, she raised her son well so that he didn't throw a fit when she took it away (probably figured he'd be caught sooner or later) and secondly, she actually doesn't blame the ESRB for her self-admitted ignorance.
"So it’s not hard for even those in the know to not be completely certain about what was and what wasn’t original in SA."
Based on the comments above, it looks like you are right. Even within this blog's comments, there is uncertainty.
And it looks like Rockstar should have just admitted from the beginning what was in the actual code and what was added to the code. Like John, I don't see this footage actually warranting an AO rating, since if the footage was shown in a movie rather than a game, it would not have warranted an NC-17 or X. The article linked to by Scoops also makes this point:
"The ESRB didn’t help matters when they caved in to pressure and pulled Grand Theft Auto’s original Mature rating and replaced it with Adults Only. The correct answer, though not necessarily the politically viable one, was to respond that upon evaluation the content in GTA is not substantially different than what would be expected in a R-rated film, and that the Mature rating stands."
"Another source, well-versed in the political aspects of video game content, saw the move as indicative of fading retailer confidence in the ESRB:
'Really, it all goes back to Hot Coffee.'"
I think part of the problem here is that people have a PROFOUND misunderstanding of what Hot Coffee was. How would CSM had discovered it? Do you really think that they're creating Mods on PC's that they can download to hacked PS2's to unlock content that they didn't even know was there???
It doesn't matter who was doing the rating, this would've fooled them. Unless they go and they disect every game's code line by line they're probably not going to find this kind of stuff in a game. These kinds of discoveries come from script kiddies with time to kill collectively spending thousands of man hours pouring over source code and mod tools to be able to pick out something like this.
That being said, this isn't what people make it out to be. Best buy is simply trying to pander to consumers to keep it's "Family Friendly" image going. In the end, it's worthless and will not help consumers at all.
Give it a few months, it'll go away.
You see no penis, no vagina, just nasty tits and a bum. Seriously, if that were in a movie, it would have been rated pg-13 alone, or R in the context of the game.
1.) Nobody can make a parent be a responsible parent. If the parents aren't monitoring their children's activities, then no amount of ratings, information, and so on can stop kids from getting games, movies, and whatever else that isn't really appropriate for them.
2.) For the information to be good information, it needs to be unbiased. Common Sense Media has a shaky track record on that front. Most of their reviews take a fairly objective tone, but some of them are full-blown anti-violence rants - and how is even a responsible parent supposed to intuit which are their "official" reviews, and which are parent reviews? Further, does CSM allow ANY participant reviews, or do they censor out the ones that they don't agree with (IE, reviews strongly in support of violent games)? I don't find CSM to be a reliable source of unbiased information.
"... controlled by either the government or Christian Evangelists."
Which as far as Republicans go, seem to be one and the same these days.
It doesn't, it was sold to an adult who gave it to a kid.
The ESRB or the CSM could make the most detailed ratings, add booklets, show pictures, and as long as parents continue to ignore that until the last minute, when their kids are blowing up a car in GTA, then it was all pointless.
The current rating system is good. The current buying system isn't.
That's because that conference wasn't meant ot accomplish anything, it was a witch hunt and they forcibly tied Ms Vance to the stake.
"Brownback’s sorry excuse for a bill has no chance, 1st Amendment issues notwithstanding. The bill will have to DEFINITIVELY pinpoint what “completing a game in its entirety” will mean, and as we all know and have pointed out, this is pretty much impossible."
I think that's the entire idea, yo make the ESRB as inefficient as possible so parents and impatient gamers will clamor for the government to step in.
As for the article itself, what's next, the PTC trying to muscle in and post their own rating? Of course, anything but Left Behind Eternal forces wil get an NC 17 rating from them.
The real problem is the member reviews. Some of the "Kids" reviews could really undermine our arguments. Half the time, I wondered if the kid really was a kid or if an anti-game bigot was posting this to make us look bad. Then again, others read so well, I pondered if an adult had actually written it, or at least helped.
The Adult reviews do tend to be more sparse. And I was surprised that some of them wrote well of M rated games, even if they did warn against letting kids play them. Others acted like they had no idea violence was possible at all. Check out of few of the adult comments on Kingdom Hearts 2. I didn't know if I should laugh at the stupidity or cry for humanity.
Here's a link directly to the comments:
http://www.commonsensemedia.org/game-reviews/Kingdom-Hearts-2.html?show=...
All in all, Best Buy using CSM reviews is a mixed bag. While it does allow parents to more easily research the games for their kids (something we've been preaching forever), it needs a more unbiased source. Why couldn't Best Buy just create a division to do this for themselves? Or provide links to multiple sources?
Better than letting the Parents Television Council or one of the Massacre Chasers reviews games though. Can't you just see it?
I'm not going to bother looking for links because you have google for that. I tried the hot coffee patch and it comes in two flavours. There's one that unlocks the portion of the game and one that comes with modded skins (which is what you see in your video). Just look at the video closely and you'll notice a couple of things. 1.) graphic errors around the girls arm pit. No, these girls aren't hairy french women. 2.) the guy has all his clothes on. Dont you find that odd?
Had there been better resolution in the video you would have also noticed that the body skin doesn't match up with the face skin either.
Hot coffee wasn't meant to be hardcore pixel porn. It was more of comedy bit that got old and annoying after the first time. Which was probably why they scrapped it in the first place.
It's already been pointed out about Hot Coffe, however, here is another link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_coffee
Under the heading "Minigame overview and Hot Coffee mod":
" However, the Hot Coffee modification replaces this with a minigame which allows the player to actually enter the girlfriend's bedroom and control Carl's actions during sex. None of the six possible sex scenes involve any nudity, and there are animation problems with the girlfriends' partially-clothed textures and bedrooms, suggesting the minigame was abandoned at a relatively early stage."
And then, on additional modification:
"Third-party additions were later incorporated in the Hot Coffee modification which replace the girlfriend's clothes with modder-created, flesh-toned bitmaps. These additions, like most nude patches, can only be applied to the PC version of the game, and do not incorporate visible genitalia."
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
I'm looking for the page for Gran Turismo right now, and if I didn't know what "Common Sense Media" was, I would have just ignored that whole box. You actually have to click a link before you can even SEE the rating. They have not replaced the ESRB, and they haven't undermined the ESRB, they have only provided another source of knowledge to the observing consumer.
Whenever somebody tries to regulate games, we insist that it's the PARENTS responsibility. Now Best Buy has given the parent another tool to work with, and we're pissed because we weren't in control of the reviewing process? Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.
"if Best Buy was confident in the industry’s own ratings board, would it take the time and trouble to break ranks in such a fashion?"
Yes. Because no matter how confident THEY are in it, consumers currently are not. And in the end, they are a business that relies on consumer trust to make their money. Maybe some of that consumer trust would spill over into the game industry, if we stop sabotaging it at every turn.
I am glad that this person is not an actual employee of the CSM.
As for this matter, Best Buy is most likely trying to save face. They do not want to look like the bad guy next time someone wants to attack ratings inforcement. I do see more retailers following suit, which would be unfortunate. If the CSM gets more support like this, it could have a negetive effect on the ESRB.
And personally, I'd like to see PTC ratings. It would help clue up people on how screwed up they are. Or at least give nut-job parents one less leg to stand on.
Seriously though, since when is having more information on which to base a decision a bad thing? Why are people complaining about this? If you don't care about the CSM rating, ignore it. The ESRB isn't going anywhere. If you're happy with their ratings, use them. If you aren't happy with their ratings, look at CSM's. You'll find they aren't all that different. If you still aren't happy with the ratings, despite one coming from a body independent of the game industry, then you probably won't be happy no matter what people do.
Also worth noting, if for nothing but humour value, the CSM ratings have no equivalent of AO. Not that it matters to Best Buy, as they don't sell AO games anyway.
I thought the "official" minigames did have partial nudity.
I am pretty sure it can however use the 5th Amendment and 14th Amendments.
Not a big problem. There have been varying opinions about what was original and what was 3rd party.
Not to mention that "nude patches" vary from game to game as well.
So it's not hard for even those in the know to not be completely certain about what was and what wasn't original in SA.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
It's a game named for a crime. Please tell me what the heck these parents expected.
@Scoops
"And personally, I’d like to see PTC ratings. It would help clue up people on how screwed up they are. Or at least give nut-job parents one less leg to stand on."
I'm glad that the Parent's Television Council is not involved at this point. The PTC is the main interest group that prompted the whole FCC crackdown after the Janet Jackson Super Bowl thing that culminated in FCC fines being increased tenfold. It accounts for something like 98% of all FCC complaints. It has shown that it has actual power, especially when Republicans are running things. The PTC is probably pretty envious of Common Sense right now, teeming with jealousy that it didn't get this plum gig. Then again, for all I know the PTC might be working on a deal with Wal-Mart right now, which actually now that I think about it wouldn't surprise me at all.
"I thought I’d throw some facts out there about Hot Coffee. For one the animations found in the game, contained no nudity at all."
Hot Coffee may not be as explicit as some people claimed or implied, but naked butts and exposed female breasts do count as nudity as the term is generally used. The Hot Coffee footage is available below.
http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=1949
If you are claiming the footage above contains user-generated nudity, well, I don't believe it, at least not without a source, link, or something else to back up your claim.
Which is more effective? The CSM's ratings system, or the ESRB?
With them standing side by side, then that allows for shoppers online (I am unaware of these ratings being displayed in the stores) to see which one is the most helpful in determining the game content.
Note that this means that they have to buy the game anyway to determine if the "red light" is truly worthy for the game, as it really follows a three tier system.
True, it does show a vote of non-confidence in the ESRB system, but at the same time this could also be used to the ESRB's advantage to show the severe flaws and errors in the CSM's method of doing things, and bring the focus on them.
No game company out there that makes games commercially subscribes to the CSM system, so the ESRB ratings will still be on every game! (Go ahead, prove me wrong! I doubt even Wisdom Tree would use their system!)
I say to sit back and see what happens.
And also, I can't wait to see Hal Halpin explode all over this. It'll be GREAT!
~Otaku-Man
Here's the facts.
The nudity exposed in the "Hot Coffee" incident was actually on the game discs, but inaccessible through any normal means. It is common for developers to leave cut content on the production discs; in most cases, it would never be discovered. It became accessible through use of a "cheat code" hack that reconnected the game scene with the commented-out code that directed the game to use hidden nude skins that replaced the normal skins.
Now, what Rockstar should have done is deleted the "offending" code and skins. Unfortunately, that's not the standard in programming; it's more common to comment out code than to actually delete it, and it's a time-consuming task to remove all unnecessary artwork; it's simpler to just leave it and forget about it.
Many of you would do well to go back and read the earlier post on this too. A lot of stuff about CSM reviewers, ratings and content was discussed there. Most important to note is that the CSM site seems to have had a change in editorial position a while ago. Prior to that, both the reviews and ratings were heavily biased. Since then, it seems to have become a fairly decent site. If anything, I find that their reviews are overwhelmingly positive, regardless of what age rating they give a game. This applies only to the official reviews. Most of the member reviews are trash (most, not all). As I said in the earlier discussion, read the Vice City review (pre-change) and the Vice City Stories review (post-change).
And yes, it's a subjective rating. All ratings are. All reviews are. As I said in the other discussion, what I find useful about the CSM site is the listing of facts. I may disagree with CSM's choice in rating, but I am more informed than I am with the ESRB rating. If I have no problem with my 16 year-old seeing casual nudity, I can take that into account with the CSM rating before buying a game. I can't with the ESRB mini-box.
and @Iredell:
According to this site, nudity was a v2 addition to the user generated hack that opened up Hot Coffee. This article also makes reference to their being no nudity without additional modification.
Another thing is that the ESRB is apparently still suffering a backlash from Hot Coffee. I thought I'd throw some facts out there about Hot Coffee. For one the animations found in the game, contained no nudity at all. The characters would be having, because of the no nudity thing, "dry sex." If there was any nudity during all of this, it was because of user created content. Another thing is the rating that GTA: SA already had at the time when Hot Coffee was exposed. It was a MA-17+ rating, after Hot Coffee it became a AO-18+ rating. That's really not much of a difference at all. The box was already labeled with Strong Sexual Content, before the AO transformation. Not to mention, Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language, Use of Drugs.
I find it hard to believe that the parents who bought GTA: SA (Hot Coffee version) for their underaged kids would endorse everything else in the game, excluding Hot Coffee's dry humping. Irresponsiblity is the word on my lips.
The thing that concerns me is that the complaint was that the ESRB ratings were not clear enough and did not inform of the content. The CMS fixes the second problem, though in a manner that is somewhat open to abuse. However, I can't see how parents who 'don't have time to learn the ESRB ratings' are going to consider registering online and sifting through a list of conflicting reviews for a game as 'convenient' by any stretch of the imagination.
"Huh. Interesting" was all I could reply.
Its likely that all ESRB ratings need is time. the G,PG,...R ratings on movies we all know and accept have been around for some time. Long enough so that people know that an R rated movie isn't suitable for a young child. We have to give the ESRB a long enough chance so that people will get used to the ratting system and know that an M game is as bad as an R movie.
And dating back to Hot Coffee, I think most of the Industry is trying to learn from that mistake. They don't want to take a huge hit like that. It's a business after all.
The Bad: They have the same information anyone else would have to rate a game. They can do no better a job than the ESRB and, in all honesty, they seem to be doing a worse job. Their ratings come off as biased. Every game is rated as a child's toy and not targeted at the demographic it was designed for. Not one of the M games was given an "on" rating. To me that says they don't see video games as entertainment for adults in any way.
The Ugly: Best Buy supporting CSM will only lead to increased views of games being simply child's play things and not the wider range of media they are.
What can we do? CSM allows members to review games as well. I suggest that we go write informed opinon's on games and point out the flaws in their "official" review.
If you want personal, religious, and/or political opinion to pass judgment on a video game product to make your decision, use Common Sense Media ratings.
If you want varying opinions, you'll have to visit a number of review and information sites to get the WHOLE picture.
Too bad there isn't a central database which lists each game, movie, book, TV show, etc, and then lists sites that offer Positive, Neutral, and Negative reviews and opinions for each.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Alot of effort falls on the parents shoulders to do their job...
Sence alot of people don't seem to get that...
What if ESRB DID get replaced one day?...What kind of things might the new organazation try to attempt to get the message across?..They can do the same shit as ESRB......but rate most games higher or AO.....yet....it's still the parents responsibalities.....and that new ratings group might then fall still.
I dunno....
I just wish parents did their job...a little research can go a loooong way.
if i think they might care, i tell them to watch me play, and if they find it offensive, they just don't let me play. it's not taht hard for parents to do.
good parents woudlnt let their 12- kids play M games anyways, and after taht we are mature enough to handle this stuff.
The game is called GRAND THEFT AUTO, what did you think it was about? Candy mountain and the Pufferpoos?
The state has no right to regulate things that should be dealt with by parents.