LaRouche Followers Continue Video Game Assault at Virginia Tech Hearings

Far-out political figure Lyndon LaRouche is apparently intent upon linking violent video games to the Virginia Tech massacre.

Last month GamePolitics reported on Virginia Tech Review Panel testimony given by Don Phau, a member of LaRouche’s political action committee (see: Violent Games Should be Banned Like Heroin). Phau attended the panel’s public meeting in Richmond, the first of several planned around the state.

Now, Joystiq’s Kyle Orland reports on testimony given by Larouche Youth Movement leader Paul Mourino (left) at the second Review Panel meeting, held in Blacksburg, where Virginia Tech is located. Among his comments, Mourino referenced game violence critic Dave Grossman and implied a media cover-up by the Washington Post:

In the aftermath of the Columbine High School massacres… Lyndon LaRouche joined such law enforcement experts as Col. David Grossman in demanding action against the manufacturers and distributors of violent point-and-shoot video games…

Cho, the Virginia Tech shooter, is no exception, despite the near total media blackout of his involvement with violent video games, including “Counter-Strike.” News organizations like the Washington Post… confirmed his strong attraction to these games. Yet that story never appeared in print, and only accidentally showed up on a blog site associated with that newspaper…

I ran into this phenomenon when I was in middle school. The game “Wolfenstein 3D” was free and was the first killing simulation game on the market….

These video games are creating menticide among the young generation… We also recommend that you shame, fine, or regulate all those private corporations who have participated in these projects. Proper legislation, designed to protect my generation from these games, is needed…

GP: The “near total media blackout” alleged by Mourino ignores several national T.V. news programs which gave Miami attorney Jack Thompson air time to claim that Cho’s Counter-strike play led to the massacre as well as substantial play given to the issue in both the gaming and mainstream press.

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  1. 0
    Ariel Bakshandeh says:

    There are stupid LaRouche supporters all over my campass and there stupid enough to say if some video games are bad all video games are bad. That’s like saying if one American is bad all Americans are bad get a life you wanna-be communist retarded idiots.

  2. 0

    […] GamePolitics has been following the saga of the Virginia Tech Review Panel since they began, documenting the semi-invasion of the the process by followers of nutty political figure Lyndon LaRouche, seemingly hell-bent on blaming the entire incident on video games. From telling the panel that violent games should be banned like heroin to endlessly testifying against a hobby that had nothing to do with the incident at all. When the report was finally released last week, it contained no mention of video games. Case closed, right? […]

  3. 0
    Erik ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Also, a mentally healthy balanced person is able to have both goals and leisure time activities. Me thinks you may be a little obsessed.

  4. 0
    Erik ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Paul, you keep thinking that everyone should think the same way as you do. What if someone would “put down the controller” and work to keep Cheney in office? Gee you didn’t think of that did you? That someone might not hold the same opinion as you do. Thats because, well, you’re a cult member.

  5. 0
    SlyFox says:

    1. As has already been said, this is not the place to post your political agenda/propaganda.

    2. You’re spouting the same stuff as before. If you haven’t convinced anyone yet, give up; you aren’t going to succeed.

    3. You people are obsessed with Dick Cheney almost in the same way that a scorned lover is obsessed with his or her former partner. Seriously, it sounds like you had a secret crush on Cheney but when you decided to tell him, he rejected you and now upset and hurt because he didn’t feel the same way about you as you did about him. So now you’re telling everyone what a bad person he is to get your weak revenge. Really, that’s pretty much what you sound like, except that this sort of thing usually happens on the elementary school playground. Since you’re no longer in elementary school, don’t you think it’s about time that you got over using such weak tactics?

  6. 0
    Paul says:

    re Ara Shirinian

    Let us examine some of the reasons why someone might play a video game…

    Look at some of the various civilization simulators and games where you, the video game user, are tasked with the challenge of building up a city, or whatever, and then taksed to develop the weapons of war to destroy a neighboring civilization. The games I am thinking of are Sid Meyer’s Civilization (any version), War Craft (any version), and or Star Craft (any version). Take these games as the industry standard. The format is pretty much the same with only slight differences in qualities of graphics, sound, and or user interface.

    Think about the mind of the video game user as they play the game. Are they in a good state of mind? Remember the video game is nothing more than a glorified computer program, and a computer program is nothing more than a logical system. Yes, no yes no yes no….0101010101010101….Just for fun…apply that to a social process for a moment…what would it be like to talk to people who think like computers…Computers don’t ask the question why? or have the ability to ponder what the answer to why might be. Perhaps you have had the experience of asking such questions, and have been reprimanded having done so. What is the quality of mind of the person who reacted with anger to these questions?……ok back to the topic at hand.

    Notice the video gamer jumping through a whole bunch of yes or no switches to develop the right combination, which are pre-set by the video game programmer, to outflank a computer or internet opponent. This process is repeated, again and again and again, with slight adjustments to the mission and or board objectives, each time.

    Now, think about the quality of mind that finds this process enjoyable. Perhaps this individual enjoys conducting war and destroying things every evening after a hard day in reality. Worse, perhaps that individual feels helpless for not being able to deal with the challenges of everyday life, because at times the answers to life’s challenges are not always there and easy to find. Perhaps the video game is filling a void, or giving the user a false sense of power to compensate for a world, which is constantly telling them not to think.

    Let’s contrast this with another form of activity which might be a little more positive for the mind. Take a dramatic reading of one of the many of Plato’s dialogues. Start with the trilogy of the Trial and death of Socrates. In the Euthyphro, Socrates is on his way to court where the 30 tyrants have decided to charge him with corrupting the youth and defaming the gods. Now for cultural and political reasons they cannot just walk up to Socrates and chop his head off…the 30 tyrants must have an air of respectability and give the population the sense that Socrates is bad and so only a show trial will do for this. Socrates finds himself waiting outside the court, and he meets a young man, Euthyphro, who is also waiting for his day in court, but in his case he is charging his father with manslaughter. They get to talking, and Euthyphro claims to know what piety is, and so Socrates begs for the teaching of this wisdom so that he may use this knowledge in his defense against his enemies at court….

    An epic battle ensues here over the next three dialogues: the Apology, the Crito, and the Phaedo…if read well, with passion, and the dedicated readers follow the arguments to the conclusion, and perhaps begin to ask some of the questions that Socrates I think you (the one who has invested time here) will find an increased power of mind. Perhaps you will know now where to look to solve those problems and anxieties, which were plaguing you in the first place…I forecast that the reader who fights through these dialogues will be much the wiser, by the end…where as the video gamer will still be stuck in his mother’s basement.

    Again, think of our generation…what would happen if in the course of time our generation decides to figure out why the United States was founded and what it’s purpose is. Do you suppose that once our generation begins to take these questions seriously that something as weak as Dick Cheney or the current Democratic Party Leadership will last…its is very likely that under these conditions that Cheney won’t last too long, and better yet those Democrats who have been weak might find the courage to fight and win something good for a change. Already they are responding to a new quality of mind, which I have been helping to develop within the LaRouche Youth Movement. Given our limited resources and limited size relative to the size of the population…it’s a miracle that we are accomplishing what we are accomplishing…Now the conclusion to this story is not written yet.

    Currently, Kuchinich has 8 signers on his impeachment bill, and we need to get many more Congresspeople to move on this yesterday…Once that is complete we have an entire nation to re-industrialize. Perhaps it is time to put the video game down for a little while, and instead dedicate time to figuring out how were are going to succeed in saving mankind.

    I hope some of these ideas are helpful.


  7. 0
    Wavinglighter says:

    What these critics needs to realize is that there is no respected national consensus among certified medical analysts linking violent video games to acts of violence. Until there is, I believe that they have no argument.

  8. 0
    Ara Shirinian says:


    Let me reply to some of the things you are saying:

    “Do video games enable one to reflect and learn about human nature?”

    Some games do, and some games do it in ways that have nothing to do with narrative and in ways that cannot be accomplished with other media. You don’t seem to appreciate this, presumably because your exposure to video games and the possibility of what video games can be is limited.

    “Sadly, in general the video games I have seen tend to reflect the fantasy of a post industrial or feudal world.”

    Okay, let’s suppose for sake of argument, that your experience with video games is representative of the medium in general.

    First, if I understand you, you seem to think that this is bad per se, presumably because indulging in fantasy, sex, etc. reduces one’s ability to reason and think for themselves?

    Besides the fact that you simply assert this to be true without reason or logical explanation, you apparently have an assumption that people’s ability and tendency to fantasize and play will inexorably spill over into their reality, and the degree of exposure to the former will damage our ability to recognize and appreciate the latter. This is a mistake.

    When people sit down and play video games, the context and frame is clear that they are only playing, and I can’t see how enjoying a video game has any negative impact whatsoever on someone’s cognitive abilities. We learn very early on the difference between fantasy and reality.

  9. 0
    Timmay! says:

    @everyone who’s been debunking the LaRouche camp with honest/factual evidence:

    Everything you guys have posted is great, and covers everything that LaRouche’s group, Jack Thompson, and every proponent of videogame legislation has come up with. This is what needs to be said to the VTech investigation committee, as well as al state governments and the federal government. If everyone were to contact their state governments with the information they’ve posted here, it could make them think twice about unnecessary legislation, and calling people like Jack Thompson and LaRouche’s youth group “experts”.

    Contact your state and federal reps and senators, and let them know the truth, it’ll take just as long as it would to post the same stuff here, and it would have a a far greater impact.

  10. 0
    Twin-Skies ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    This is hardly the place to set up shop for your group’s announcements. That, and those topics you’ve just mentioned that are going to be taken up don’t appear to have anything to do with the said panel.

    Have respect for the dead, man…

  11. 0
    LaRoucheYouthMember says:

    For anyone within striking distance (and I mean that nonviolently), a team of LaRouche Youth Movement organizers will have a table set up at George Mason University, the site of the next VTech hearing. There’s plenty to talk about–Cheney’s impeachment, the Eurasian Landbridge, Capital Budgeting, the BAE bribery scandal, and the merits of anti-Euclidean geometry! If you can’t make it, the next best thing is our website:

  12. 0
    Erik ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    “In reality and in our republic the citizen’s mind and the citizen’s ability to reason is the key factor in determining world politics…mysticism, romanticism, and an infatuation with sex and violence really inhibits one’s cognative abilities.”

    Albert Einstein put it best: “Imagination is more important than knowledge.”

    If anything an infatuation with mysticism and romanticism helps show people they don’t have to settle for what is, and to reach for the stars. What does Lyndon Larouche have against people expanding their minds? Perhaps he doesn’t want them to see any way except his, to keep his brainwashed little soldiers.

  13. 0
    Terminator44 says:


    First off, let me say that I am glad you personally came to this site to clarify your arguments.

    However, I notice a few ironies in your post.

    First, I find it ironic that you bring up Plato’s emphasis on education of youth. Do you really think that “education” means restricting certain forms of speech and art you do not like? How will that approach help children grow up to be intelligent, independent-thinking people?

    For the record, video games have been ruled by the courts to not only be a valid form of free speech, but a valid form of artistic expression. In fact, you might even say that video games are the poetry of our time. Thus, it would seem that Plato’s arguments work against you, not for you.

    Second, I find it ironic that you bring up a parent’s authority over their child, when you advocate government involvement. No one on this site would contest a parent’s right to decide what speech their child may view. In fact, most people on this site have been saying for years that the responsibility for keeping “inapporpiate” games out of their children’s hands lies with them and them alone. However, as I pointed out in a response the LaRoucheYouthMember, problems tend to arise when the government has power over people normally reserved for a parent over a child.

    I don’t know if I ever will have children, but if I do, I want to retain the right to raise them myself and teach them values that I learned from my parents. I do not want the government to take that power away from me and instill my children with their values. That isn’t educating them, that’s indoctining them. It just isn’t conductive to a free society.

  14. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    i mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone but i must say judging content by what its value is to a few people is very troubling to me

  15. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    the main arguement that i believe that has been attempted to be made (again i dont mean to speak for anyone but myself) is that people are trying to blame problems on video games instead of trying to solve them.
    it would be foolish to think if you stop a certain medium from be published that all the worlds problems would be solved

  16. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    no one is stating that children should be allowed to do as they please and see what they want (i cant and wont speak for anyone but myself) but i believe the point that is trying to be made is A. the parent MUST be responsible for the childs upbringing (not the government) B. video games are meant (at least to me) as entertainment, i dont want art or deep thought (i can get that if i truly want not to say im totaly uneducated [just partly jk]) C. as for the cure for cancer i assure you we have people working on it (lately ive read they are making good progress) but the entertainment industry is not run by doctors (forcing me to wonder why you brought up cancer in the first place)D. as far as the education of youth, that sadly has been plagued by all kinds of problems but i can assure you none of those problems will dissapear if video games do

  17. 0
    paul says:

    Hello Everyone,

    I have been following the discussion with great interest, and I wanted to contribute to the discussion on culture and specifically the education of young people. Of course scientific education is important, but so too is one’s esthetical education. I want to dive into the emotional development of humanity.

    Do video games enable one to reflect and learn about human nature? Is man really just a beast as Hobbs and Malthus describe? Is the reality presented in video game land equivalent, at all, to the real universe? Is the real universe linear and cartesian in the same way that video games are??

    I would say no…Sadly, in general the video games I have seen tend to reflect the fantasty of a post industrial or feudal world. This view tends to come from some of the worst political opperators like the late B.Russell, or Al Gore’s or Prince Charles desire to return to a feudal world where man is reduced to the level of a peon/peasant tied to the land upon which he or she was born. The main element that binds these worlds together is magic or mysticism. Think for a minute what spell can you use to remove Dick Cheney from office…is there any magic one can use to find the cure for cancer?? In reality and in our republic the citizen’s mind and the citizen’s ability to reason is the key factor in determining world politics…mysticism, romanticism, and an infatuation with sex and violence really inhibits one’s cognative abilities.

    To get to my question…

    Why does Plato make such a big deal about the education of the youth in his Republic? In particular in the middle of his dialogue the Republic, he makes the argument that people/parents should give only the most beautiful and profound poetry to their children, and avoid at all cost existentialism, materialism, and reductionism in the young culture. Plato is really critical of even some of the great poets like Homer. Now there are some who say that, for this reason Plato is a fascist. After all he is taking away “my art,” or “my culture.” If a parent tries the same for the benefit of their child, does the child have a right to make the same argument?? Does the child really know what is best for them??

    Also in the writings of Frederick Schiller, in particular the esthetical letters, Schiller takes up various problems which Plato left, to my thinking, unresolved. Namely, in Schiller’s plays he tries to develop for his audience a process where the individual can begin to find reason in their entertainment. I would like to say more on Schiller, however I would first like to post a few of his works for your consumption, and wait to hear your thoughts before continuing.

    Lastly, for those who may be interested in my full speech/testimony given before the VA Tech panel is posted here, and I think you’ll get a much better idea of what I was trying to convey, as compared to the short that was presented at the top of this website’s article.

    Testimony to the panel:


  18. 0
    Korrd says:

    @ Terminator44
    I agree that it’d be ideal to have a respected intellectual like Henry Jenkins set the VTRP straight. Just in case that doesn’t happen, however, I think it’d be very worthwhile to make your own submission on their website. There your age is immaterial and you’d have the ability to revise your comments in order to combat that oft-inarticulate-ness (to which I can relate).

    I had a lengthy submission in the works, but I have a habit of not saving documents until I complete the first draft. Then we had a power outage.


    @ Tye The Czar
    I have no tolerance for gimmicks, as I find them puerile and pathetic. If you must rely on a gimmick to be memorable, perhaps it’s best you resign yourself to obscurity. Shouldn’t the message you convey be more memorable than the artificial mannerism you employ while conveying it?

    I’m neither vexed nor threatened, merely annoyed. It makes your posts frustrating to read, as the “oy” feels tacked on simply for the “I’m unique!” effect. It’s an awkward end to the sentence and distrupts the flow into the next. Your call, but I tend to get so annoyed by the second or third “oy” that I stop reading. And, in fact, I tend not to remember anything you wrote as a result.

    (Apologies for posting off topic.)

  19. 0
    Tye The Czar says:

    Thank you for not saying the kinds of stuff that would trigger us into irrational anger (ala Jack Thompson).
    At least this guy isn’t acting like a certain banned 50’s obsessed massacre-chasing lawyer.

    But its still candy-coating of reactionist/neo-social-conservative views, oy.

    Forgive me on that.^_^; I’m an otaku (anime freak). And I want to give something that makes me recognizable on the web and online games XD. There’s no need to be vexed or feel threatened by something that won’t immediately threaten your life.

  20. 0
    Terminator44 says:


    I’m honored. However, this comments section doesn’t seem to be an actual “forum” so responding to anyone’s claims would be pointless as most people wouldn’t know which arguments I’m referring to. Perhaps I could make a comment on there, but as a 18-year-old off the street, I probabaly wouldn’t be very convincing.

    Besides, I’m not consistently articulate, which is why I don’t post often. What we need is for one of the experts on our side to come on the panel, like Henry Jenkins or Tom Buscaliga (sp?). Anyone know how we can contact them and tell them of this?

  21. 0
    TerribleTom ( User Karma: -1 ) says:

    If you want to take our warrior culture why not start with your local police department. Many of them in the south(an as i hear in California as well) are ready to pull a trigger on a nervous dog or threaten the driver if he wishes to remain silent. Probably all the roids the entire police station in Xxxxxxville, SC uses but these are people that are supposed to be serving and protecting us. Now we have people like Mr LaRouche Youth Member that wants to start by taking out violent video games like thats going to magically make the problem any better when it isn’t. If you want to take out warrior culture your trying to kill a basic human instinct that has been alive as long as we have. Thats NEVER going to happen learn to deal with it the warrior culture located in the most primitive part of the human mind.

    Your not going to fix social issues by having a well defined class of people, rich, middle class and poor. Your not going to drug use by spending billions of dollars that could be feeding the poor in America having a “war on drugs” and your not going to fix basic human instinct by censoring art(video games, music, ect) We have been through all this a long time ago. Why must we learn the same lessons over and over and over again. BECAUSE OF IDIOTS LIKE YOU!

  22. 0
    Korrd says:

    @ pen gun
    That was really not constructive in any way. It would be nice to see you put a little more thought into your posts.

    @ Dr. Burst
    Terminator44’s posts here seem to suggest he might be worthy of the task. In fact, I’m proud to see that several of our regulars have contributed greatly to this discussion.

    (Sadly, Tye’s use of his “oy” gimmick was so distracting it more or less nullified any contribution he was trying to make.)

    Regardless, there’s nothing stopping any and all of us from using the VTRP website to submit comments and counterarguments, though I admit that’s not quite the same as having someone there in person to debunk these ridiculous claims.

    @ LaroucheYouthMember
    I imagine my comment will be lost amongst the avalanche of responses to your posts, but I would like to point out one single detail: your argument seems based on the assertion that violent games breed real world violence. This is fallacious. Other people have informed of as much. No study has ever identified such causation. To most of us, in fact, it flies in the face of common sense. I’d suggest taking a closer look at those studies you brandish as proof.

  23. 0
    Dr. Burst says:

    The sad part is, no one from our side is going to this. I say we need to find the best person to repersent us all and make him go to this hearing, present the facts we have found and blow them out of the water.

  24. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @eric “And someone please explain how katamari damacy is preparing us to be “warriors” for the “new world order.”

    katamari is preparing us to roll over our enemies positions! (sorry i had too)

  25. 0
    Gameboy says:

    Let us also not forget health benefits of video games. Here’s a few stories that have been posted on this site.

    Notice that these people are finding the games therapeutic. Who woulda thunk it, eh?

  26. 0
    Terminator44 says:


    “The effects of violent media, including violent games, on human beings in general (not just children) is well documented.”

    Documented by whom? As I pointed out earlier, the people who make such claims have had their theories debunked time and time again. Not only that, but in every court case over video game restrictions, this “well documented” evidence has been presented to the judges, and subsequently thrown out for being inconclusive. The “effects” of violent media are not as clear as you think. As the (now former) Surgeon General of the United States said: “The effect of video games has yet to be determined.”

    “The more interesting question, is why we have a culture where people are more committed to defending their “right” to destroy themselves (through drugs, violent games, e.t.c.) than to a positive principle of human development.”

    This part of your post truly frightens me. Are you implying that our civil rights are simply obstacles to our betterment? Who are you to say what is a “positive principle of development” anyway? Some of the most brutal and horrific crimes in history have been committed by leaders who tried to force an arbitary idea of “positive human development” upon their people and the peoples of other countries. By trying to call for one set of beliefs for society, you ignore humanity’s most valuble and enduring asset: It’s diversity.

    You also seem to imply that video games have only negative effects on people and should be banned. However, that is only a half-truth. You talk about the effects of certain video games, yet you seem to gloss over the positive ones. For all the studies that claim video games are “harmful” there is an almost equal number of studies that suggest that video games may help release aggression, improve hand-eye coordination, and provide other benefits. Some people are even using video games for educational purposes. You can find examples of such games here:

    Contrary to your overblown rhetoric, we are not defending our right to “destroy ourselves.” We are defending our right to make our own choices in what speech we wish to consume and to find our own paths to “positive human development.” Just because you don’t approve of it or a handful of people of questionable credibility denounce it, that does not give you carte blanche to take those choices away from us and force us on a narrow path set by you or another individual.

    People can only improve themselves if they have unfettered access to introspection of the society and culture in which they live in. Whether you like it or not, that includes video games as well. The only possible way that govenrnments can do that job for them is if such governements were always led by benevolent and progressive leaders. However, it is naive to think that benevolent and progressive leaders will always be at the helm. They are not even usually at the helm. In virtually every instance where government has had total control over its citizens, it has not used such power to benefit its people. It has used it to force them to serve their interest and kill those who do not agree with their view of a perfect world.

    Clearly, such a society is not the road to a better and safer human race. The best path is to rely on people’s own initiative and beliefs to allow them to come to an agreement on a better society, instead of just one person’s view of a better society. This is the underlying concept in democracies and free markets. It also explains why societies that use them are so enduring while more oppressive societies, state-dominated societies (Soviet Union, Cambodia, etc.) tend to be relatively more short-term. You would do well in remembering the lessons learned from the past.

  27. 0
    Erik ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    And since you seem so interested in brainwashing accusations:

    Not saying whether or not any of those have any factual basis or not. But if your going to play that card make sure that you are not currently residing in a glass house.

  28. 0
    Erik ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    “The effects of violent media, including violent games, on human beings in general (not just children) is well documented.”

    You mean the link between such activities and aggression? Sure, the link between activities to aggression to violence. PROOF PLEASE. There is YET to be a valid link between games and violence, unless that is you think you can prove me wrong.

    Listen there are many many many gamers, and there are very few Colombines/Virgina Techs. Now tell me why the 99% of well adjusted gamers should be punished/held accountable for the 1%(who are likely misguided even without games)?

    If one LaRouche Youth Member performs a violent act does that mean that LaRocuheism leads to violence? Because thats frankly as a valid link as games to violence.

  29. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Oh, and will you please stop posting media about how media is being used to brainwash people, if you can’t see the oxymoron in that, I’m certainly not pointing it out.

  30. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    This is now just turning into waffle, you have completely left the point of this article, which is about Cho being influenced by video games, which he wasn’t, and there being a cover up about it, which there also wasn’t. Don’t think I haven’t noticed the attempts to pull it off topic.

    Your whole description of the growth of technology is nothing to do with planning and everything to do with human nature, just like the fact that mankind has been taking drugs, drinking and killing each other for thousands seems to have passed you by, Ancient Egyptians drank alcohol, did drugs etc. There’s nothing whatsoever new about it.

    Why do you keep repeating yourself? You keep repeating the same formulae about ‘The effect of violent Media on people’, you’ve been told the error in this comment three times now, and yet you continue to repeat it with complete disregard for the fact that there is already a control system in place.

    EVERY fact that has been bought to you, you have completely ignored and just continued repeating this litany of yours over and over in the hope that if you say it enough, it will become fact.

    This conversation is both boring and over.

  31. 0
    LaRoucheYouthMember says:

    In the time I have left until I am crushed to dust, I’d like to respond to a few things that have been said:

    “Okay, so the military has evolved over the years, incorporating the latest advancements in technology. Some technological implementations have worked, some haven’t.

    What does this have to do with the perceived need to protect children from violent video games?”

    I think it’s important to take a more historical approach to the issue of violent video games and their effects. Take an observed phenomenon, like these school shootings, and ask the question: “What principled conditions are necessary to produce these effects?” This is the starting point for real scientific investigations, such as Kepler’s discoveries in astrophysics. We’ve been working through his New Astronomy and Harmony of the World, and invite others to join the fun(

    It’s important for our generation (I’m assuming most people here are 18-35) to locate ourselves within a lawful process of history. People who dismiss that as “conspiracy” are thinking like a baby giraffe, just squirted into the world with no relationship to the past or future.

    Culture, and what we consider “our culture,” isn’t a self-evident thing at all. Theodore Adorno created the blueprint for modern music as part of the Frankfurt School’s social engineering project. You still want to listen to Butthole Surfers? Fine. But at least we should know the history.

    You enjoy playing GTA? Fine. I was addicted to Counterstrike my freshman year of college. But how we get our kicks says a lot about a culture. If we accepted that the next 50 years was going to pretty much be an extension of our life so far, it probably wouldn’t really matter whether kids were playing video games or working on Kepler. But maybe there’s a more important mission our generation is going to have to take on, starting with projects like the Eurasian Landbridge. (

    The effects of violent media, including violent games, on human beings in general (not just children) is well documented. The more interesting question, is why we have a culture where people are more committed to defending their “right” to destroy themselves (through drugs, violent games, e.t.c.) than to a positive principle of human development. That’s the ultimate free trade mentality of globalization.

    From that standpoint, we see that what’s happened in the military is not just a natural integration of new technologies. There’s been a top-down paradigm shift, to prepare people for a future of global wars fought, not to defend nation states, but to destroy them. If the actual principle of the nation has been eroded within the citizenry, what principle then does the military represent?

    The best conceptual overview of this process is LaRouche’s paper “Star Wars and Littleton.” (

    What do you think?

  32. 0
    Clyde Wyman says:

    “We need real Marines, not men and women turned into zombies by computerized killer games.”

    No offense though, your cult leader just isn’t cut out for knowledge thinking. Anyway, this quote is just insulting and useless, seriously who are you people anyway? Trying to tell us what to do and bossing us around, you guys are more of a pathetic cult.

    When the gaming industry powers are higher enough, you and your cult will be sorry until we crush you and your anti-game cronies into dust. And your cult leader will be a total failure for life if he does receive Keith Olbermann’s Worst Person in the World award.

  33. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    To summarise my last post…

    Yes, computers can be used for indoctrination and brainwashing, but that’s just as possible with TV or any other form of media, but just because such a thing can be done, it is not neccesarily indicitative that it IS being done, the whole core of this debate was the Cho was NOT influenced by computer games, that much has already been established, he hadn’t touched computer games for 5 years before he lost his grip on sanity, even the research that suggested violent video games caused increased aggression (note: aggression is NOT violence, people coming out of an important football match that they have won, or even an action movie are ‘aggressive’, quite possibly in much the same manner) stated specifically that this was a short-term effect. There are those who would argue that we don’t know the long-term effect, but after over 20 years of gaming, yes, we do, there are an entire generation of 30+ Business execs, Air Traffic controllers and all sorts of people who grew up on Pac-Man and Space Invaders, and in what way is Space Invaders ANY less violent than GTA? That gave you points per kill, the more ‘important’ or ‘higher up’ your target was, the more points you got. It is not a difficult leap to suggest that Space Invaders was training people to shoot men in power, the higher up the official, the better, there’s only two things that stand in the way of that theory,

    1. The game was written in Japan, not the US like most games (funny how the fact that the Rockstar base is in Scotland gets remembered and forgotten depending on whether people are trying to play on the ‘bloody foreigners’ angle or the ‘The American military use Video Games’ ones) and

    2. It’s complete, total and utter bollocks.

    I don’t trust the government any more than the next man, but there’s a difference between admitting that our leaders are humans who can be greedy and selfish and stupid, and making them into comic–book bad-guys.

  34. 0
    Erik ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Yet again the “games are training simulators of death!”


    aroucheyouthmember, Have you ever fired a gun? I can tell you that its a far different experience than aiming a targeting reticle with a mouse or directional pad. Do you know how to fix a jam? Do you know how to reload a gun outside of pressing the “R” button on a keyboard? 99% of the games out there are so unrealistic as far as it comes to combat that anyone relying on them in ANY capacity would end up DEAD FAST.

    You can no more become a superior killer from Half-Life or Grant Theft Auto than some 400lbs cheeto eating Madden series fan can become a running back for the 49ers by throwing a pass by tapping the X-button on his PS3 controller.

    Unfortunately too many of the people who bring up these arguments have no knowledge of the game or even real life equivalent of what they claim. Either or would be nice.

  35. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Video Games do not have their roots based in defence research. IC’s do, possibly even computers do, but computer games were simply a natural extension of what people found they could do on computers. The first ‘computer game’ involved spinning a little triangle round using two buttons, there are plenty of tactile games, such as fruit machines, which used exactly the same basis, in fact, modern fruit machines, for all their physical appearance, are computer games.

    There has, without doubt, been research by the military into the possible military application of computer-training applications, indeed, there are miniguns that use remote joystick systems, however, are you certain that is an extension of the gun into the game, or the game into the gun? Either way, we have failed to see hordes of remote-controlled tanks or an increase in soldier with either enhanced abilities or enhanced ‘killer instinct’, this war has been no worse, or better, than any others.

    As for the whole ‘downgrading the army’, considering the attacks that the government is currently recieving for the number of dead, considering the attacks it also recieved after Vietnam for the number of American men who died, is it surprising that the US decided to pursue a ‘personnel streamlined’ kind of army, add to that the fact that soldiers need to be clothed, fed and paid while on duty, it’s economics that controlled that move.

    Unfortunately, the mistake being made here is the same mistake being made across the country, the merging of the term ‘computer’ and the phrase ‘Computer Game’. Because the army is researching Computer-based AI, and so are the Video Game industry, they must therefore be doing it to achieve the same goals, or possibly even be doing it in collaboration with each other, it does not take into account the fact that it is both possible, and common for two people to be researching the same subject for completely different reasons.

    When Albert Einstein created his theories, he never guessed that one day those theories would be turned into one of the most devastating weapons mankind had known, it is also possibly one of the few things that will keep us in energy in the future. Do the people who want to build more power stations want total thermonuclear warfare? Of course not, simply because they are using the same resource does not mean that they are using it for the same purpose.

    The theory ONLY holds together if Video Games are written to specifications presented by the army, which is utterly ridiculous, most gaming companies can’t write computer games to the specifications of their own advertising.

    As has been stated before, there is no evidence whatsoever of a causal link between Video Games and violence, and I don’t believe there is any kind of ‘cover up’ because God knows enough people have tried to prove a causal link. So suggesting that Video games are in any way connected with the Armies own research in AI, which, by the way ‘thinks’ completely differently to in-game AI, since in-game AI’s are designed to be instant decision makers, army AI is actually more based around more ‘sedate’ behaviour, such as bomb-disposal.

    The fact of the matter is, look at the cost of a Hawker Hurricane, maybe $15,000 worth of materials and building there during World War 2? Now look at the cost of an F15, neither lives nor weapons are cheap any more, that is why the armies are getting smaller.

  36. 0
    brokenscope ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @Lourouche youth.. whatever i don’t want to copy and paste

    I did a project on africa rebellion/wars against established powers using the algerian war of independence last semester. An interesting fact I came

    35% of wars during the last 45 years have been won by the side that was strategically inferior, or smaller. Before WW2 the stronger side won 80% of the time. The war is fought with initial popular support, the enemy is crushed then it morphs into an insurgency. Insurgents adopt a “win by not losing strategy”. They produce a steady flow of small casualties. Public opinion shifts, leadership changes, the war is ended.

    That is what has happened. The figured I came up with while looking at the “correlates of war project were different, however I found several academic sources that gave me results that were +/- 3% of my own. In the end I went with the conclusions of academic resources over my.

    Long story short. It is the evolution of warfare. Air Supremacy was proven effective during world war 2. So ground armies changed to make it less effective. Add that to the fact that most western militaries must fight restrained warfare, air power has been neutered even further. So in response the military has changed again.

    Wars are no longer about the decisive battle. Small unit skirmishes are the norm in the form of asymmetric warfare that has developed. Small “hunter killer” teams are the end result of that.

  37. 0
    Tye the Czar says:

    “I don’t think anyone has yet taken up the question of the role of the transformation of the military that was concurrent with the transformation of the economy to a globalized, largely fantasy/entertainment based economy over the last 30 years. This is what I mean by the cultural/political context for the pattern of ultra-violent school shootings of the type we saw at Virginia Tech. Is anybody here worried about the implications of this for the younger generation?”

    Well, wether its true or not, entertainment is untouchable by censorship thanks to our Founding Father’s concoction on paper back in 1787(Constitution), oy. And neo/social-conservatives are not people you should listen to if you “youths” are actually smart. They claim they’re Christian but they usually act “holier than thou” like the saggicies and pharissies (don’t know how to spell them right) during the times of Jesus, oy. Though the bible says some pro-liberal things, such as helping the poor and loving thy enemy, Very few people in general (me included) forget that (especially neo/social-cons) since it’s just our human instinct to care about ourselves, oy. Plus we all tend to think irrationaly, (with our feelings instead of thinking things out) using animal fight or flight instinct, oy.

  38. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    btw if anyone wants to take a basic look at warfare , may i sugest picking up a copy of “the art of war” by sun tzu

  39. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    as for the advancement of computer simulation i allready feel i addressed that arguement in an earlier post . it is used to prepare soldiers for the proper use of their vehicles. as far as iraq goes, (forgive me for going off on this tangent) but i dont think the government knew what they really wanted to do in iraq and as such there is confusion and disorder on the battlefield

  40. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    as for your arguement of “professional militaries” last time i check mercinaries are considered illegal combants. and soldiers should be motivated by more than money. as for special “hunter killer squads” all militaries have some form of special forces to deal with certain situtaions that arise before they can break out into all out warfare

  41. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    you do know the internet itself was an invention of the army.
    and that most of modern technology probably has come from military research. although i dont think video games came from military research (specially not american) correct me if im wrong but wasnt the first video game made in japan?

  42. 0
    Andrew Eisen ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    Okay, so the military has evolved over the years, incorporating the latest advancements in technology. Some technological implementations have worked, some haven’t.

    What does this have to do with the perceived need to protect children from violent video games?

    Andrew Eisen

  43. 0
    Jer ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    “We need real Marines, not men and women turned into zombies by computerized killer games.”

    Can you please provide a definition of what a REAL Marine is? Also please explain how men and women are turning into zombies?

  44. 0
    LaRoucheYouthMember says:

    I’m sorry if I was overly vague before. I guess I should be more specific about what I mean by “military transformation.”

    In 1957, Samuel Huntington wrote a book that is still part of some of the reading lists of the U.S. military officer corps, called “The Soldier and the State.” His essential argument is a polemic against the concept of a republican military of citizen-soldiers, performing essential engineering functions as was the West Point tradition, and a promotion of what he calls a “professional military.” By this, he means an apolitical military that fights well only because of its training, not because “it is sustained by a higher purpose.” Over the next 50 years, this has led to a doctrine that’s come to be known as the “Revolution in Military Affairs.” Rumsfeld and Cheney are big fans of this.

    RMA is basically about a largely-privatized, mercenary force using high-tech weaponry and “information-age/net-centric warfare.” So, eliminate in-depth logistical capability and training in the military, and replace it with global hunter-killer special forces squads, backed up with overwhelming air power. This has not worked well in Iraq or Afghanistan.

    During this process, outfits like DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) have emerged as major drivers of defense-related research in artificial intelligence, computer modeling and simulation, and similar IT-based projects. It’s no secret that video games have their roots in defense research. Now, we have things like the ICT (Institute for Creative Technologies) which is a joint military/entertainment industry venture, that produces military simulations that are spun off directly for commercial distribution (America’s Army, Full Spectrum Warrior, e.t.c.).

    I’m still researching this process, because it’s big–the military transformation called for by people like the Tofflers (“War and Anti-War”) really is no differrent in intent than the economic transformation under the banner of globalization, i.e., moving from a science-driven productive agro-industrial economy, to a system where hedge funds have taken “game theory” to the absurd limits of financial speculation. No production, just gambling!

    These are profound changes, that are hard for people my age to really grasp because we grew up inside this process.

    So, I hope this clarifies my position on the military aspect to this. I’m not anti-military. The actual institution of the military has been subverted by this process, which I think is clear by looking at Iraq. The most concise statement on this is LaRouche’s statement, “We need real Marines, not men and women turned into zombies by computerized killer games.”

    There’s certainly more to say–but I’ve taken up enough space for one post. Hopefully, people are checking out for breaking developments on the Bering Strait project and the impeachment of Cheney, even as we debate the video game question.

  45. 0
    sabin_blitz ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    “Proper legislation, designed to protect my generation from these games, is needed…”

    No, proper legislation, designed to protect mankind as a whole from your words of madness, is needed.

    Okay, I’ve compared Jack to Denzel Crocker. Who can I compare LaRouche to… ahh, yes! The crazy guy who comes to my register at Shop Rite every so often who snorts like a pig and shouts about conspiracy theories at the top of his lungs! I’m not joking here.

    In all seriousness, though, this is sad. The evidence against them is overwhelming, though they trumpet their nonsense like it’s some sort of missing book of the Bible.

  46. 0
    E. Zachary Knight ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @ NamaeX

    “henchmen to organized crime syndicates that kidnap the same princess over and over have no rights!”

    The definition of crazy – Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

  47. 0
    kurisu7885 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    “Honestly I find it amazing they even have Internet sites.”

    Many people that are against what the net has on it have sites themselves.

  48. 0
    NamaeX says:

    @Nekojin: “I’m going to have you written up on charges of Goomba cruelty! Won’t anyone please think of the Goombas?!?”

    henchmen to organized crime syndicates that kidnap the same princess over and over have no rights!

  49. 0
    jonwanker says:

    @GoodRobotUs: “Using LaRouches exact argument, LaRouche knows that places like Abu Ghraib exist, therefore he MUST, by his own rules, be in favour of Torture, Persecution and unjustified incarceration.”

    But the US doesn’t employ torture 😉

    Sometimes, American politics make me want to crawl into a corner and die.

  50. 0
    Nekojin ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @NamaeX: “It will be a sad day when I can’t stomp a goomba in peace without someone crying manslaughter.”

    I’m going to have you written up on charges of Goomba cruelty! Won’t anyone please think of the Goombas?!?

  51. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Well, the whole funny thing about the LaRouche movement is their ignorance ot their own double standards….

    For example, LaRouche’s claim that because the Queen knows that Drug Dealing is going on in the UK, that she is a pusher…

    Using LaRouches exact argument, LaRouche knows that places like Abu Ghraib exist, therefore he MUST, by his own rules, be in favour of Torture, Persecution and unjustified incarceration.

  52. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    It’s sad in a way, I’m not 100% in support of the current Media control system, but I AM 100% against indoctrination and censorship from the Government.

    How do so many people let themselves become sheep? Take this LaRouche movement, basically, David Grossman said it was true, therefore, LaRouche said it was true, therefore the LaRouche Youth Movement believes it’s true. I wonder if it occured to one of these cattle to actually check their ‘facts’ at ANY point after Grossman said ‘because I said so’? You know, like contact the army and ask, whereas they would have got the same answer as in here, that they are used to teach teamwork and communication, not violence, but no, the nice little sheep go ‘Baaa’ and swallow every mis-fact that Grossman spews without question.

  53. 0
    Soldatlouis ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    And I forgot to say that since this interview, there has been no new involvement from Grossman (as far as I know). His speech and his 2002 interview were reprinted this year in LaRouche’s review EIR, and that’s all.

  54. 0
    Soldatlouis ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @Gameboy :

    In fact, the only involvement of Grossman with the Larouchites is that :
    – He’s been interviewed in march 2000 by Larouchites Jeffrey Steinberfg and Dennis Speed
    – He was invited in may 2000 at the “Founding Meeting” of LaRouche’s “National Commission To Stop the New Violence”, moderated by Dennis Speed, and he made a speech :
    – He’s been interviewed in 2002 after Erfurt shootings by Helga Zepp-LaRouche (Lyndon LaRouche’s wife) :

  55. 0
    Gameboy says:

    @ Clyde Wyman

    Actually, I think they are trying to “protect” society from the evils of… um… free speech is all I can really come up with. Having checked out a few of their sites, I can say that they hate everything. Rock, Rap, Jazz, television, movies, video games, you name it they hate it, and want it to be illegal. Honestly I find it amazing they even have Internet sites.

    The theories they provide sound like something out of a B movie. The US government created video games to desensitize soldiers. The games were then promoted to children, who played the games and likewise became desensitized. They then found guns, either on the Black Market or stole them from their parents and killed people. It’s all a vast conspiracy! BTW yea that’s pretty much one of the theories I read.

    Even Jack Thompson has said he has nothing to do with this group. And despite them citing Grossman, I doubt he wants anything to do with them either. Maybe they’re just jealous that LaRouche is a even worst bigot than they are?

  56. 0
    Clyde Wyman says:

    To EOTD,

    It’s quite foolish though, I mean seriously, what is it that these people are trying to protect? Are they willing to sacrifice their lives for something that is worthless (e.g. teens)? If they are, I say they are insolent fools and foul-mouthed mongrels.

  57. 0
    EOTD says:


    I really have nothing to add that hasn’t already been said better by others here, but I will say this:

    Your group has a chapter on my college campus, and they’ve made news a couple of times in this past year for disrupting open discussions and debates, and on one occasion the police made a couple of arrests – had I known I would need them now, I would have saved the papers and quoted from the articles.

    In addition, they sometimes set up a station along the main campus walkway, as most political groups often do, with posters advertising their ideas – unfortunately, every one of the posters is much along the lines of the one Mourino is sporting in the above picture: they contain no information, and no argument, only intentionally inflammatory rhetoric.

    Now, I know you, personally, very likely have no connection to those events, but let me ask you this: how can you ask for serious debate and discussion in the name of this group when ANY members of the group are either disruptive of debate, or are debating based on inflammatory rhetoric rather than actual fact.

    I’ll admit, it is a bit of a logical fallacy to discount the intentions and ideas of one member of a group (you) based on the actions of the group as a whole (the members at my university), but I can’t really help it: every single LaRouche Youth Movement member I’ve seen or spoken to has used the same tactic of avoiding proper debate by spouting rhetoric against the Bush “regime” or any number of other common targets.

    If you want to debate the topic at hand seriously, then by all means go ahead – we can never have enough serious, thoughtful, fact-based debate – but be careful not to present your own arguments and views as those of the LaRouche Youth Movement as a whole, because as a group its members have shown themselves to be little more than opportunistic, misinformation- and rhetoric-spreading rabble-rousers.

  58. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    btw as for why the esa doesnt send people to debate them. its simple would you wanna be stuck in a room trying to debate these nutcases??

  59. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    i would really like to get some military personnel to talk a bit more about the training simulators (if any of them visit this board) so that someone who actually knows about the trainers can tell me if i have my facts straight or if im totally wrong

  60. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    jo should say job i also vote for an edit button (but i could see how it could be misused without some form of password control)

  61. 0
    cullarn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    yes the military does use simulators for the express purpose of training soldier how to handle vehicles like airplanes and tank without destroying the vehicles and killing pilots and crew, see in order to properly use tanks and planes ( that is not just as a unit but to supprt the whole military, it takes alot of practice. and the situtaions they will face cannot be safely reinacted in real life, but in a simulator we can have enemy formations pop up where we want them to train soldiers {yes im using soldier as a generaic term for all military personnel} how to deal with situtations to not only save their own lives but the lives of the other soldiers who fight along side them. war never has been a game, sun tzu says that war is deception. and soldiers must practice this to come home alive. the soldiers jo is not to die for his country but to make the enemy die for his

  62. 0
    Soldatlouis ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Oh, if you haven’t read them yet, here are my sources for last paragraph :

    The “satanic roots of rock’n’roll” according to Larouchite Don Phau :

    The “satanic” mind of Gerard Jones (author of “Killing Monsters”) according to the same Don Phau (pages 68-69) :

    The “satanic” “violent” video games according to Helga Zepp-LaRouche :

    The “satanic” role-playing game “Dungeons & Dragons” according to Lyndon LaRouche and other Larouchites (also mentions “satanic” video games) :

    And finally the “pro-Satanic” philosophy of “same ol’ fascist” Al Gore, according to LarouchePAC :

  63. 0
    Clyde Wyman says:

    To LaRoucheYouthMember,

    Most of the time I would let people keep to their opinions to themselves and keep quiet, but after I saw this stupid follower’s comment, I think that enough is enough.

    What makes you think that games are violent, is it because that you heard Jack Thompson’s lies or just trying to protect the stupid generation, the teens? Perhaps you and your anti-game cronies should be worried about terrorism that is happening around the world which is not a myth unlike your false theories.

    I seriously feel sorry for you, your parents for many years have been trying so hard to earn money and raise you for better future, yet you repay them by selling your false stories to people and join the group that you shouldn’t join? I am seriously appalled by these choices you had made, I am very sure that your parents must be sad too, that their own son has joined a group of discourteous people and be a false preacher to preach the wrong words to the public.

    At the end of the day, you should wise up, clear your foul brain and start thinking straight, banning video games is not going to help the world and is not going to stop violence from happening. The terrorist attacks is now happening and the best for us to do is to give up our anti-game thoughts and start thinking about the future. If you don’t like this/that game, shut your bloody mouth and don’t buy it since you think that games corrupts your own mind. And tell this to your pathetic cult leader LaRouche, “We like to do what we want, and if you don’t like it, then shut your mouth”.

  64. 0
    Clyde Wyman says:

    I feel sorry for these people, what a poor excuse for human beings. I mean really, why not take the blame on that South Korean serial killer instead of taking blame on video games???

    Maybe Friedrich Nietzsche was right, people nowadays are more grown to telling lies and making false beliefs and to attract false followers which sums it all, “blind following the blind”.

  65. 0
    Soldatlouis ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @LaRoucheYouthMember :

    You said :

    “Despite what a lot of the vitriolic responses on this forum seem to indicate, our position can’t simply be reduced to “video games are evil.”

    O RLY ?

    What about EIR’s recent issue (Volume 33, Number 22, June 1, 2007), you have an article written by LaRouche and entitled : “Video Games Produce Killer Zombies” ?

    What about this quote : “LaRouche has called the promotion of video games ‘a crime against humanity.’ It is not a social problem, ‘it’s a Nuremberg crime!'” ?

    What about this article title, “The Age: ‘Video Games Destroying US Military'” about an opinion paper in Australian journal “The Age”, that never said, nor suggested, such a thing ?

    And finally, what about the Larouchites’ systematic use of the adjectives “fascist”, “nazi” or “satanic” for anything you don’t like ? The “satanic roots of rock’n’roll” ? The “satanic” mind of Gerard Jones, author of “Killing Mosnters” ? The “satanic” “violent” video games ? The “satanic” role-playing game “Dungeons and Dragons” ? The “pro-satanic” philosophy of Al Gore ?

    So I think that “video games are evil” sums up Larouche’s position quite well.

  66. 0
    Darrel says:


    JT isn’t so bad. The real reason he’s doing all this “violent videogame” angle is because he just wants attention. I mean, he wants to go out witha bang and all. Compared to Larouche who’s doing this because he wants to get elected so he gets his sharped toungued youth minions to forge up wild conspiracy theory so that he gets the power to do what he wants to America.

    Heck, when questioned, Jack said that he wants nothing to do with them.

  67. 0
    LordCovamust says:

    I strongly believe a strong spike in video games with adult content is needed. Maybe one of them will make their brains explode. Prepare for mind explosion.

    Alright, I gave your side a fair chance, I’m browsing through your some of your websites. Let me do some reading… I’ll tell you what you think. Garbage. I’m happy LaRouche was never elected president. I’d pick George W. Bush over him any day of the week. And oh how I hate that monkey man.

    After doing even more research I can confidently tell you that I actually feel better about having George W. Bush in office. I’m sorry you’ve been brainwashed and sucked into that cult but its a youth cult so there is still time for you to seek help.

    Is this all that democrats have to offer? Are you kidding me. I once thought you were a group of politicians looking after our freedoms and protecting the constitution. This country is screwed. Should make for fun news and political scandals. But then again the good news is Lyndon LaRouche was born in 1922 which means he is almost 85. His life is coming to an end.(oh what a celebration it shall be) Its sad he is burning these terrible lies and ideas into the brains of youth, but at least thats all we will have to remember him by after he passes.

    I know what your thinking, “thats a terrible thing to say.” Well I suppose if you don’t understand dying is a part of life and everyone does it well then I guess thats understandable for you to think that. And don’t you think LaRouche would rather people be happy after his death rather than sad? I certainly know that my last wish will be for people not to be upset over my death. And I’ve always been taught to treat others how you wish to be treated yourself so there you go. Celebrate death, its natural.

    Here is a nice piece of poetry I’ve encountered once before, I dedicate this to Lyndon LaRouche. And how about the LaRouche Youth take a good listen as well as Mr Jack Thompson

    Stormtroopers of Death – Kill yourself

    Can’t take it, never could
    Time to end it, wish you would
    Friends and family, they’re all gone
    Life for you is just a con
    Dig yourself a hole in the ground
    Push up daisies six feet down
    Take a dirt nap, buy the farm
    Inject a bubble in your arm

    Kill yourself, kill yourself
    Why don’t you kill yourself

    Don’t rely on no one else
    End it all just kill yourself

    Life is just a one way ticket
    Everyone must go around
    Here’s a bucket go and kick it
    Slit your wrists without a sound
    When you go don’t make a big deal
    No dramatics, don’t overplay
    Cause don’t you know that we’ll all feel
    Better once you’ve gone away

    Kill yourself, kill yourself
    Why don’t you kill yourself

    Don’t rely on no one else
    End it all just kill yourself now

    You’re a loser, there’s nothing left for you
    A worthless loser, at everything you do

  68. 0
    Terrible Tom ( User Karma: -1 ) says:

    I strongly believe a strong spike in video games with adult content is needed. Maybe one of them will make their brains explode. Prepare for mind explosion.

    Alright, I gave your side a fair chance, I’m browsing through your some of your websites. Let me do some reading… I’ll tell you what you think. Garbage. I’m happy LaRouche was never elected president. I’d pick George W. Bush over him any day of the week. And oh how I hate that monkey man.

    After doing even more research I can confidently tell you that I actually feel better about having George W. Bush in office. I’m sorry you’ve been brainwashed and sucked into that cult but its a youth cult so there is still time for you to seek help.

    Is this all that democrats have to offer? Are you kidding me. I once thought you were a group of politicians looking after our freedoms and protecting the constitution. This country is screwed. Should make for fun news and political scandals. But then again the good news is Lyndon LaRouche was born in 1922 which means he is almost 85. His life is coming to an end.(oh what a celebration it shall be) Its sad he is burning these terrible lies and ideas into the brains of youth, but at least thats all we will have to remember him by after he passes.

    I know what your thinking, “thats a terrible thing to say.” Well I suppose if you don’t understand dying is a part of life and everyone does it well then I guess thats understandable for you to think that. And don’t you think LaRouche would rather people be happy after his death rather than sad? I certainly know that my last wish will be for people not to be upset over my death. And I’ve always been taught to treat others how you wish to be treated yourself so there you go. Celebrate death, its natural.

    Here is a nice piece of poetry I’ve encountered once before, I dedicate this to Lyndon LaRouche.

    Stormtroopers of Death – Kill yourself

  69. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I didn’t even mention the military side of the comment for the simple fact that simply writing a paragraph with lots of ‘long words’ and a blurry meaning in it does not constitute research. LaRoucheYouthMember is going to have to do better than that, and actually go and find out for themselves.

  70. 0
    Darrel says:

    FYI folks.

    “Jesus Christ” is an internet TROLL.

    His link is good enough as an indication.

    It links to that stupid “BadgerBadger” flash.

  71. 0
    Ack says:

    I would just like to add to Terminator44’s point about globalization. If you follow the crime rates of these nations, you’ll notice there has actually been a sharp decline in youth-based violence over the last decade. Japan is especially well known for its current lack of violence over the last few decades, and despite a few problems that have occurred in the last few months related to organized crime, the nation that currently houses the companies that produce a large percentage of games is extremely peaceful and lacks a real military force.

  72. 0
    Terminator44 says:


    What exactly does the “transformation of the military” have to do with games? If you’re talking about military simulators, then you’re exagerating things. The majority of individual soldiers still engage in live-fire exercises for combat training. Now, simulators used by the minority of soldiers aren’t made to desentize them to killing or make them better killers, as Dave Grossman and the like insist. The stated objective of these simulators, from Marine Doom to America’s Army, has simply been to emphasize the importance of teamwork, and it has never been proven that they have any greater effect. In fact, Dave Grossman’s theories have been debunked time and time again. Here’s one example: (Skip to #5).

    Now, your point about a more global economy is an interesting one. We do know that many violent video games your organization has condemned are played by countless people in many different countries, including the U.K., France, and Japan. Yet despite the fact that millions of people play video games (69% of American households, according to the ESA:, only a few people go out and murder dozens of people, most of them in the U.S. If anything, globalization may make a good case AGAINST the theory that games make people violent.

    Thus, even in the context you present, the argument that video games are behind school shootings like at VTech still falls apart.

    Now, there may be deeper cultural/social reasons for why these kind of things happen. However, video games are not one of them.

  73. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    They were writing romantic poetry in the 16th century that involved blood, and a hell of a lot of it, this ‘transformation’ is not new, and is not even ‘real’, it’s like saying the Christianity only took off after the Caxton Press was invented.

    School shootings have been going on in the US for over 100 years, in that time, as well as computer games and Video Media we have also learned how to make headache tablets and built the Ford Mustang, does that mean these have a part to play in the downfall of society as well?

    The implication for a younger generation is that Parenting is a Parent’s job, you talk about the rise in violence, I talk about the increase in crime, and I don’t mean crimes commited, I mean crimes that exist. 50 years ago, beating your son with a wooden paddle was considered discipline, now, it is a felony. You want to ask why the number of criminals has gone up lately? Look at how the number of crimes it is possible to commit has increased.

    There is no ‘sociological trend’ toward violence, that’s propoganda from those who would limit the Freedom of Speech, there is better and more thorough reporting, there is a larger umbrella for criminals to be convicted under, but whatever is causing the increase in school shootings is not ‘thing’ related, there is a far deeper problem there that pointing fingers and trying to tell the country that created Mark Twain that ‘fantasy based media’ is a recent phenonemon, or a bad one.

    I seem to recall precisely these same prejudices and fear arising about Dungeons and Dragons, Comic Books and a whole plethora of other ‘New Media’, it’s technophobia, pure and simple, people are afraid of what is ‘new and different’ and try to create scape goats to blame their fears on.

  74. 0
    Ace of Sevens ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @LaRoucheYouthMember: Hasn’t the transformation of the economy into something more entertainment based happened over a much longer period? You can trace it back at least the invention of radio and more accurately to the concept of the popular novel, which dates back well over 150 years. Just because two things happen at the same time, doesn’t mean they’re directly connected. You might as well try to link the popularity of the DVD format with rising dairy prices. It took some thinking to come up with a comparison more ridicuouls than the one I was trying to refute. And even if they are indirectly related (changes to the military and to pop culture are both largely pushed by technology), it doesn’t mean it’s a conspiracy.

  75. 0
    Yuki says:

    @ LArouche youth

    Oh Would you shut up already. We’ve been over this, we debunked your garbage theories time and again. Beat it already, were tied of having to to debunk the same bullshit conspiracy theory over and over.

  76. 0
    LaRoucheYouthMember says:

    I don’t think anyone has yet taken up the question of the role of the transformation of the military that was concurrent with the transformation of the economy to a globalized, largely fantasy/entertainment based economy over the last 30 years. This is what I mean by the cultural/political context for the pattern of ultra-violent school shootings of the type we saw at Virginia Tech. Is anybody here worried about the implications of this for the younger generation?

  77. 0
    BT says:

    (to clarify that last post, I mean, literally, mentions of “iD software”, “John Carmack”, “Todd Hollenshead”, etc… maybe they think that lucifer himself is behind these games?)

  78. 0
    BT says:

    I *still* find it strange that in all of this, iD software is rarely mentioned. Aren’t they the evil, evil men seducing our children with satan’s killing games?

  79. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I still think it’s rather funny that Mourino, of all the games he could have singled out as being ‘killing simulators’ had to decide to attack one that involved shooting Nazis…..

  80. 0
    Tye the Czar says:

    Wow, guys. This is just too fun when we get to argue post-to-post with people with very little to zero knowledge of what they’re up against and how they’re making a pea shooter look like a BFG or a Knightmare Frame, oy. Let’s start “inviting” more people with these views into our deathtrap of turning their happy innocence into bitter experience, oy.

  81. 0
    monte' ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    indeed… is very rare for me to talk like that, but the thigns that need to be said or so damn obvious that you’d have to be bling not to see them. You can very easily tell when poeple are being ignorant and only listening to one side f the arguement. One of the good things about this site is that, even if it has some bias towards video games, it still reports BOTH sides of the arguement, and links the orginal source material, thus allowing us to make a complete and informed decision… I mean, looking at most of the anti-game sites, you can see them reporting mostly on the anti-game information and don’t seem to mention much of antyhing that challenges them… it’s completely one sided


    Exactly one of the things i’ve been saying… If there truely was a serious problem being caused by something, and something really did need to be done about it, then there would be more then enough concrete facts to prove it… Poeple would not need to resort to using misquotes, exagerations and bold assumptions to make their claim… and as courts have found when rulling on game laws, the evidence behind antigamers is just plain weak… if evidcne was as strong and as horrible as they say it is, they would have probably have what they needed to make violent games unprotected speech; but no, evidence is weak… the evidnce just doesn’t add up to what they claim.

    not many poeple would go as far to say the violent games have no effect on people (afterall, everything has some effect on poeple)… but it’s certainly not nearly as horrible as most anti game poeple like to think…

  82. 0
    hayabusa75 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Actually for a brief moment, I thought those two were pretty brave to come onto this site and actually try to pass off the LYM’s activities as meaningful. But then, I realized that without any ammunition for a real argument, in this case bravery = stupid.


    “There are plenty of other sites that slander LaRouche.”

    I think “bash” would be a more appropriate word. “Slander” implies that the things being said aren’t true.

    @Jesus Christ:

    What alternate dimension are you getting this evidence from?

  83. 0
    Yuki says:


    I guess I didn’t explain what I meant, so I don’t mind if it seemed to you that ti was rather rude.

    For clarification, What I meant was this, I think one of the major problems that currently exsists in government is that it’s age discrimnatory already. It’s well documented that only people over a certain age can run for office, and a result, only older, and as you put it, in many cases White, Straight males wind up in office.

    I’m not so much upset about them being old, what I Loathe is the lack of balance thats been created as a result. Part of the problem I think is that there to many old Foagies in office and theres no younger members to balance them out.

    Thats just my opinion, but the last 20 years seem to indicated that I’m not far of the mark given some of th stupidity the last generation has led us into eh, speciall the clinton/bush years.

    Sorry if that comes out wrong, but I just think it’s bad for a country that is so diverse in age, race, and sexual orintation to have such a like of power in it’s government.

  84. 0
    HandofCrom ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    It’s very interesting that the anti-video activists and their ilk need to lie outrageously to make their case. Shows me that they do not have any case at all.

  85. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    The reason I get annoyed is because I feel like I’m doing these people’s thinking for them. I have better things to do with my life than try to offset some of the ignorance from people who obviously haven’t spent 5 minutes researching the very subject they are making accusations about.

    I always find it funny how these people arrive on here say ‘How come you don’t debate our really poor and ill-informed statements with consideration for the idea they might be true?’ and then the moment we start pointing out why we don’t consider them to be true, we get answered by silence… it’s very telling.

  86. 0
    monte' ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @Jesus Christ

    “So much for serious debate. Why do people not refute this guy? Fact is that Cho became psychotic, he learned to fire guns, learned to be a killer and the evidence all points towards these games. Now while I am happy to go through the evidence, I would like people to address what they have read, and also try to refute it for themselves, then and only then write a reply.”

    you might actually want to go into that “evidence”, because last i chekc their was NONE.
    if i recall… Cho has had a long history of cutting himself from others, even in childhood… He played countersrike in high school (5 years before the incident)… HIs family mentions his basketball playing hobby FAR more than his video game playing… Cho’s roomate as stated that Cho did NOT play violent games in college (current information)… Cho was in a mental facility several months to a year before the incident… Cho bought his guns and went to a shooting range to train… There are numberous things that point out the hatred that Cho had… police reports mentiong NOTHING about vidoe games when searching his room

    really, there is no evidence point to that violent vidoe games had any influence… all evdence points to other elemnts in his life being at fault for how he turned out… there’s a reaosn why in past incidents, FBI and Police studies had found dozens of reasons why those kids turn out liek they do (vidoe games usually being either very low on the list, and sometimes absent)

  87. 0
    monte' ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    “Often, the easiest way to obscure an issue is to ignore or distort the real terms of discussion.”

    The poeple who speak for your group, such as Phau and Mourino, should practice what you preach. So far, both of them in their testimonies have both showed a great amount of ignorance, twisted and exagerated facts, and outright made stuff up in order to make their points.

    For instance in this article… You member talks about a media blackout to cover up Cho’s video game playing habits. This statement is utterly ridiculous. First off, not once in the past has the media ever covered up video game involvement, in fact, they have always done the opposite, they exploit the video game involvemnt because it makes good for sensastional news; The washington post, which i believe is more of a conservative news outlit, in particualr has never held back on reporting about video games. why would they suddenly start covering it up now. Futharmore, poeple like Jack Thompson, Dave Grossman, and Dr.Phill have all managed to speak out against games in reguards to V-tech, all during this suposed media Blackout (even though they have no evidence to back up their claims that Cho had any recent game involvement)…

    The media isn’t covering up anything, they merely reporting what is relevent. Why did the Washington Post edit their article? because they realized that the infromation they got was not relevent to V-tech. The washington post found out that Cho played counterstrike back when he was in high school; however that was 5 years ago… i’d also liek to poitn out that when talking about Cho, poeple from his past mention ihs hobby of often playing basketball outside much more than his video game habits (leads me to think that even though he played them from time to tiem, he wasn’t much of a gamer)… There is also the FACT that cho’s roomate in college has stated that Cho did NOT play video games; he spent most of his time writing and occassionally watching Wrestling and game shows. In addition, the police reports mention absolutly nothing about Cho owning any video games. All evidence points to that Cho stopped playing video games after leaving for college. The washington Post reliazed this and so edited the article because playing video games is only relevent if it’s is recent. This is also why the rest of the media has not been talking about Cho’s video game habits, because there is NO evidence that he had any current video game habits. He left his game playing behind.

    So far, those who have spokenout in the name of your organization have shown themselves to be completly bias is this matter, not willing to considering the agruements for video games and actively, misquote and exagerate information in order to make things seem FAR worse then they are. They love to point out the poeple who speak out against violent video games, but do not pay any attention to those who speak in favor of them(experts who are not in the video game buisness, but researchers in their own right), Many of us has had plenty of time to read both sides of the argument. Many things don’t makes sense and other things do. The anti game studies in particualr are either flawed, or have their findings exagerated… Heh, one vidoe game study was applied to the holy bible, and the study came out with similar results… now, either the holy bible is just as bad as video games, both studies are not as bad as some poeple like to make them seem, or both studies are just plain flawed (i go with one of the latter two)…

    Those who speak out in the name of your group have shown themselves as the type of poeple who would misquote, misinform, make up conspricay theories on to make their point (media blackout…) and outright lie… Last i checked, when their really is a problem that needs to be solved, such tactics are not nessasary, as their would be more then enough evidence to prove their claims… There’s a reaosn why there are so-many poeple speak out against your group

  88. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    No, the evidence doesn’t even remotely point towards these games, the only ‘evidence’ that exists is that he played computer games just like 30 million other people who don’t lose it and go round shooting people.

    Let’s make this perfectly clear for all of you that don’t understand.

    There is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever, anywhere, in any way, shape or form that even suggests that Cho was influenced by computer games. The whole thing rose from ONE comment in ONE newspaper that got removed because of irrelevency. NO other newspaper reported on Counter-Strike, and Cho’s own room-mate stated he had never seen Cho play games.

    You see, it’s this kind of misinformation that gets places like the LaRouche institution the reputation it has.

  89. 0
    Jesus Christ says:

    So much for serious debate. Why do people not refute this guy? Fact is that Cho became psychotic, he learned to fire guns, learned to be a killer and the evidence all points towards these games. Now while I am happy to go through the evidence, I would like people to address what they have read, and also try to refute it for themselves, then and only then write a reply.

    Keep your keyboards clean guys.

  90. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    Maybe it’s because it is very difficult to take an organisation such as yours seriously when it uses misinfiormation, prejudice and lies to promote itself? Or did you not think you were tarring yourself with the same brush when you joined the movement?

    You talk of ‘deeper issues’, but like so many anti-gamers, you fail completely to identify these ‘deeper issues’ you are talking of, so instead you try to blur the meaning and just so ‘oh, they are just generally bad things, and you should think about that.’

    What is there to think about? Your leader made a statement based on misinformation, misquotation and downright fabrication, you expect me to stop and think about a pile of shite like that?

    The reason there are so many LaRouche hating sites is because of the way you behave and discriminate, you ask us to stop and think about games, why not stop and think about the attitude towards the very society you are a member of?

  91. 0
    Andrew Eisen ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    I admit, I haven’t visited the LaRouche webpage. All I’ve heard are the testimonies by Phau and Mourino. Frankly, I haven’t been impressed by the statements of either. Both demonstrate a severe misunderstanding of video games and the industry. Additionally, both seem to be behind ineffective (not to mention unconstitutional) solutions to nonexistent problems.

    “It would be far more interesting here to deal with the merits of his actual arguments on the subject of video game violence.”

    I agree but thus far I’ve seen no arguments with merit. Just the typical misinformed, stereotyping blather. Maybe Phau and Mourino aren’t doing the LaRouche group due service?

    Andrew Eisen

  92. 0
    LaRoucheYouthMember says:

    Has anyone actually considered the substantial issues being posed by the LaRouche movement, regarding the larger cultural/political context in which violent video games have been developed and promoted?

    Despite what a lot of the vitriolic responses on this forum seem to indicate, our position can’t simply be reduced to “video games are evil.” Often, the easiest way to obscure an issue is to ignore or distort the real terms of discussion.

    There are plenty of other sites that slander LaRouche. It would be far more interesting here to deal with the merits of his actual arguments on the subject of video game violence.

  93. 0

    @Andrew Eisen:

    Just for fun let’s say that video games are addictive, do turn kids into killers, and game companies are developing and selling these games with the specific intent to cause children to kill other people.

    The question remains: Why the hell would they do that? What could possibly be their motivation for doing so? What’s in it for them?

    World domination. They are making armies of pre-programmed killing machines to overthrow the free world. Didn’t you miss the memo?

  94. 0
    Ack says:

    Well, LaRouche’s camp has been doing this for years, and most of their statements are unresearched, and very widespread. They don’t just hate what are usually considered “violent video games” because they consider every video game violent. In 2002 in an email statement, LaRouche claimed Pokemon was being used to brainwash small children. Stranger yet, they claim this is all a plot by Dick Cheney, even though many of the games they reference were created before Cheney was in office, like CounterStrike or Wolfenstien.

    The problem I have with this sort of unresearched drivel is that, like many before me have stated, the video game industry does not try to dispute it. Some sort of counterpoint should be made by the industry in a public forum, because next to nothing is ever said by ANY representatives of the game industry.

    But then again, even if they did, people like LaRouche’s followers would then harp on them as part of some sort of conspiracy, involving Microsoft and our current presidential administration. And they’re not the first. Assaults on so-called “violent” video games have been documented as far back as the 1970s. Needless to say, however, I’m still shocked by the kind of nonsense that people claim is the truth about the games I play, and I often find myself very insulted by what antigaming activists call the gaming community.

  95. 0
    JC says:

    I don’t think we need an ESA representative, just send any regular Joe to laugh at their beliefs. It’d say something as to how important their radical ideas are to the commonwealth of society.

  96. 0
    E. Zachary Knight ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @Stinking Kevin

    Whether they respond at the hearing is not the point. The fact that they have made no effort to say anything is what is wrong. The ESA should do something to inform the panelists that LaRouche have no valid points and that their arguments are misleading.

  97. 0
    Serrenity ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @Stinking Kevin

    Or it could be seen just as the ESA making a good Faith move. It would really be up the eyes of the beholder, much like it is here. Both could become the dominant points of view depending on how ESA PR plays the situation.

    So I would agree that serious harm *could* come from sending an ESA rep there. As to would it? I have a bit of faith in the ESA PR team to spin it in a way that our movement would be a good faith gesture as opposed to damage control.

    I would put money that the ESA is having this exact same debate that we are right now ….

  98. 0
    Stinking Kevin says:

    I disagree — I think serious harm could from sending an ESA rep to those hearings, because that could be taken as a tacit acknowledgment that games may have had something to do with the massacre after all. According to all documentation I’ve found, the panel has no specific interest in video games or media politics. The LaRouche propagandists, as they themselves boast, are the only ones contending or debating the influence of games at these hearings, and I do not believe anyone on the panel asked for their opinions in the first place.

    Perhaps that it is “garbage” is exactly the reason it’s NOT being taken seriously by the ESA.

  99. 0
    wrench115 says:

    America is in a state of emergency. This and everything else revolving around video games is proof. Paris Hilton and Lohan and all of them are proof.

    America was once a great nation and now look at us a sad shadow of where we were.

    We’ve become a society where noone needs to ever face the blame for something they do. Where the blame has to be on something else other than a mental illness poor childhood lack of parenting.

    A society where a fast food chain gets sued for selling fast food to people who willingly buy them. Where criminals can make millions off of book rights to their murder sprees.

    American society is failing. These are the people helping to wreck this country. Folks like JT these idiots.

    I love this country. Just saddens me greatly to see that for every 10 steps we take forward we take 100 back.

  100. 0

    Duh, complete world domination. Imagine millions of 17 year old soldiers going on complete rampages. There is a good chance the Queen of England is on it, too. The videogame industry is taking over the world for the British Empire.

  101. 0
    Andrew Eisen ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    “…the addictive nature of these video-games, their role in creating student killers, and the fact that this brainwashing has been done deliberately.”

    Just for fun let’s say that video games are addictive, do turn kids into killers, and game companies are developing and selling these games with the specific intent to cause children to kill other people.

    The question remains: Why the hell would they do that? What could possibly be their motivation for doing so? What’s in it for them?

    Andrew Eisen

  102. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Well, in many ways, believe it or not, it’s helping, the Anti-Game bandwagon is starting to resemble a clown-car, filled with misfits, spinning round in circles and making far more noise than progress.

  103. 0
    Weatherlght ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Why dont these articles carry useful information like, where can I get a free copy of Wolfenstein 3D? I need a good old fashion killing simulator, to add to Counter Strike, BF2, and GTA:SA.

  104. 0
    Vinzent says:

    One question. Where the hell are the people voicing our opinions? Are they not getting invited to these hearings? Is the ESA not taking this garbage seriously?

  105. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    It should also be noted that as of 20th May, over 30 British politicians sent a letter to the German authorities basically accusing them of covering up for LaRouche’s organisation and requesting that the hearing be re-opened on Jerry Duggan, so expect a lot more of these diversionary tactics from him and his group to try and distract people from the fact.

  106. 0
    Serrenity ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I think you all miss the point. No matter how crack-pot any theory is, there are those who will believe it, or take bits and pieces and believe it. Mostly because no one is openly challenging it at this point.

    I think we take for granted that its common knowledge that LaRouche is a nutcase. Even if the industry just has someone standing next to him to look at the Committee and shrug in like -well, what do you want me to say to that-, I think it would benefit us.

    And plus, no harm can come from the industry just having a presence there, LaRouche / Thompson being present or not. If it’s part of the industry that will be debated and contended, then let us at least be there and show some concern over the issue, instead of just ignoring it and pretending it wont effect us.

  107. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Oh, I hope they do, LaRouches’ racism against English and Jews is known even over here, I’d love to have one of his people here to defend themselves without him to be their ‘thinking brain for the stupid’.

  108. 0
    kurisu7885 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Wow, I’m surprised none of those nutjobs have yet showed up here to call us impotent or to defend their “beliefs”

  109. 0
    JC says:

    It is surprising these people are such loonies. I wonder what the hell they are smoking or drinking to think there are such “cover-ups” for the industry. The media wants to find things wrong, but there’s only so far they can go before a libel suit hits or something.

  110. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Yeah, she sorted me out last week 😉

    It’s kind of good to see in a way, it signifies the start of the whole ‘Computer games are designed specifically to teach children how to kill!’ idealologists sinking into the ‘Tin Foil Hats’ section where they belong, with all the people who claimed exactly the same thing about Comics, D&D and Rock and Roll.

  111. 0
    Stinking Kevin says:

    While I try in general not to complain too much about people complaining about my complaints anyway, but I don’t ever take your comments on this board as less than sincere. I always like to read what you have to say here. Narrowing down is almost always good, I think.

    I too am unclear under what pretense the LaRouche committee “testimony” was given. I must admit I am only assuming it was unsolicited, and given during the public commentary part of the program. I wasn’t there for either meeting, and didn’t have a chance to watch on C-SPAN.

    I think there’s at least one point I haven’t done such a good job at expressing so far here. As Kyle Orland’s Joystiq article suggests, LaRouche might be a beneficial political adversary to have.

    There are lots of people in the ‘mainstream’ (including many of those ‘clueless but influential white males over 50’) who know about LaRouche. They may not know anything about video games, but they do know the LaRouche committee’s reputation for promoting irrational theory and extremist policy.

    For many in the mainstream, I think any LaRouche association automatically carries an implication that is more like the opposite of “expert testimony.” So my initial thought was, as anti-anti-game activists, why mess with a boon like that?

  112. 0
    GoodRobotUs ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    As Phantom says, having LaRouche and JT against is is a bonus, all we need now is for Fred Phelps to join in and we have the complete set.

  113. 0
    Terrible Tom ( User Karma: -1 ) says:

    The reason people commit crimes are many and video games aren’t one of them. People commit crimes because the dead-end job they work doesn’t provide them with enough money, or maybe they can’t even find a job. Some people just get bored so they go commit crimes because they think its fun. Some people are addicted to alcohol and drugs. Some criminals are trying to get even with a society that has constantly given them the short end of the stick. Bad parents, corrupt police, corrupt politicians, and religion are all also popular and understandable reasons. History has shown that when there is a problem with crime it is usually related with the law of the land. Why can’t we learn from past mistakes? We have thousands of years of it to look at. Crime isn’t anything new so why continue to blame new forms of media. I mean before Rock, Metal, Rap, D&D and Video Games society did have similar problems. Once one becomes aware of this the answer to the issue obviously has little to do with video games.

  114. 0
    nightwng2000 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Stinking Kevin,
    I checked the Review Panel’s web page, which you also posted, but it’s not quite clear when compared to the original article ( )

    From the article:
    “That suggestion was made recently to the Virginia Tech Review Panel, an elite commission appointed by Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine to study the April 16th school shooting rampage committed by madman Cho Seung-Hui.

    The panel, composed of a variety of experts and specialists as well as former Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge, held its first public meeting in Richmond on May 10th. Among those testifying was Don Phau, a member of former fringe presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche’s political action committee.”

    “testifying” implies something more… binding (?) than “commenting” or “offering an opinion”.
    But the Panel’s website doesn’t have the testimony or Documents of anyone other than the President of Virginia Tech.

    It’s not quite clear to me just what the purpose of this panel really is. It clearly implies an “investigation”. Yet, it also appears that just anyone can put forth their opinions at this Review Panel.

    The problem I have with this is the use of the word “investigation”. If there is actual work going on here in trying to discover the FACTS of what may have happened, then those giving “testimony” are doing more than sounding off and their comments are taken far more seriously than just an average citizen. In which case, yes, valid, strong, serious counterarguments need to be made. Not to mention limiting who can give testimony.

    But if this is nothing more than a Public Forum or Town Hall Meeting where people can express whatever goofballish opinion they want, then, no, no official counterargument could be made. Individuals could make counterarguments, but an organized counterargument no. BUT, the Panel would and should also make it clear that these Meetings have absolutely nothing to do with a valid investigation and that comments and opinions made by the public are not true “testimony” that will be used in considering whys and wherefores of what actually did happen that day. (Which as I’ve said before elsewhere we shall never know everything because the only person who did know everything about how and why is dead. And that was Cho himself.)

    But right now, the “testimony” being given is being protrayed as something more than just people “getting things off their chest”, as it were.

    And I’m not complaining about your comments. I just have a tendancy to narrow things down. Sometimes, it’s a bad habit. :)

    NW2K Software

  115. 0
    GameClucks says:

    Talk about brainwashing… the LaRouchebag cult youth movement is the scariest thing I’ve ever seen. These people are so disconnected with reality that they can’t have a civil discussion without bringing in words like ‘facist’ or ‘nazi’. Every time I have tried to talk to them they use this tactic.

    The man has been preaching that the doom of the American economy is “months away” for more than 20 years. He has set the record for the most consecutive failed attempts to run for president (and is tied for most overall attempts, which he will break next year).

    The fact that people actually subscribe to his agenda makes me think I could actually start a cult of my own. Except I’d get my minions to farm gold and uber-loot in online games, not stand on street corners calling Dick Cheney the devil.

  116. 0
    Stinking Kevin says:

    Maybe I am missing something. Were Phau or Mourino invited speakers, or did they just show up to comment in the public remarks part of the program? Unless they were invited, I don’t see how the LaRouche committee is afforded any substantial “expert” status by making unsolicited remarks to the Virginia Tech Review Panel during the public commentary portion of the two meetings.

    The Review Panel’s website provides for comments and criticisms from the online public, so maybe we all can be an experts too, if we like?

    I apologize if I sound flippant, and for what it’s worth, wacko anti-game propaganda really gets under my skin too. There’s probably more to this story I don’t know about, and I welcome and correction or insight you could offer me.

    But for now I’ll stand by my opinion that the ESA or ECA taking the time to seriously answer nutjob testimony like this would do little to further diminish its already deficient credibility, and possibly give it more publicity than it deserves. I believe the resources of these organizations are better spent in more mainstream and legally relevant arenas.

    How is discrimination against someone based on his age a valid “point of order”? Don’t all those politicians and authority figures also “tend” to be white, heterosexual males? Why not also call for all future politicians to be lesbians of minority descent?

    In your first post, I took your comment as a misguided rehash of a Nixon-era joke. I find it disappointingly hypocritical that you’d seriously defend such a ridiculous generalization, when anti-game activists use the exact same appearance of “patterns,” instead of qualified facts or individual accountability, to defend their positions of censorship and repression.

    Or maybe you’re still joking, in which case I humbly apologize for taking you seriously.

  117. 0
    E. Zachary Knight ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @ Nekojin

    Thanks for the article. I really liked it (except the high contrast of the black background and the light blue font)

    I like the last point:

    “8. Video game play is desensitizing.

    Classic studies of play behavior among primates suggest that apes make basic distinctions between play fighting and actual combat. In some circumstances, they seem to take pleasure wrestling and tousling with each other. In others, they might rip each other apart in mortal combat. Game designer and play theorist Eric Zimmerman describes the ways we understand play as distinctive from reality as entering the “magic circle.” The same action — say, sweeping a floor — may take on different meanings in play (as in playing house) than in reality (housework). Play allows kids to express feelings and impulses that have to be carefully held in check in their real-world interactions. Media reformers argue that playing violent video games can cause a lack of empathy for real-world victims. Yet, a child who responds to a video game the same way he or she responds to a real-world tragedy could be showing symptoms of being severely emotionally disturbed. Here’s where the media effects research, which often uses punching rubber dolls as a marker of real-world aggression, becomes problematic. The kid who is punching a toy designed for this purpose is still within the “magic circle” of play and understands her actions on those terms. Such research shows us only that violent play leads to more violent play. “

    These studies that have been performed have only showed that violenet play only breeds more violent play. I bet if they did a study and had a kid play Doom or GTA for several hours then put them in a room to punch another kid for no reason, they most likely will not.

  118. 0
    Serrenity ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith
    The Emperor: [to the Senate] In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society which I assure you will last for ten thousand years..

    [Senate fills with enormous applause]

    Padmé: [to Bail Organa] So this is how liberty dies… with thunderous applause.

  119. 0
    Otaku-Man ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Why do I get the feeling that Lyndon Larouche is the Emperor Palpatine behind Jack Thompson’s Darth Vader?

    And yeah… something tells me this guy is a bit…

    …OUT there.


  120. 0
    Wag ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I have to agree with Yuki and Nightwing as well. The ESA’s ‘hands off’ approach is getting annoying seeing as how more and more of these nutjobs keep getting invited to these summits, hearings, and other official events. By keeping their hands off of these folks and not fighting back, they are letting them be the ONLY voice in the room. When it’s the only voice in the room it’s hard to get people to ignore it.

    It wouldn’t bother be nearly as bad if there were industry professionals who were out there giving counterpoint, but that’s simply not happening. These people are basically getting free reign out of the media and politicians to push whatever agenda they want to limit our rights in this country. It’s absolutely appalling.

    What needs to happen is for the industry to not just “respond” to these people, but to OFFICIALLY DISCREDIT them. They need to show people and politicians just how crazy these people are and show them that they are literally spouting LIES. Show politicians and others that to use these people to testify in a public or formal setting literally shows a lapse in judgment on their part and can seriously damage their own reputation.

    Let these people be shown for what they are. Fearmongering, lying, deceitful swine who care nothing for the issue but only for their own misguided crusade.

  121. 0
    Serrenity ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    @ Yuki and Nightwing

    I, unfortunately, agree. I just read over some of this man’s … well, I don’t really want to give it the title of Essay. Demagogoucial rantings I think would better serve.

    He provides little support for his claims other than his own support and assertions as to what they do. He uses strong language to invoke stronger images to keep people away from the reality of his argument: that there isn’t an argument. His essays are the equivalent of a 4 year old stomping his feet because the boogey man is in his closet.

    I take for granted that not all the 18-30 somethings are not on our side in this. Paul up there, his statement is just as sensational as LaRouche’s. Anyone have an email for him, or his Youth group? I just don’t understand how someone can be so…well, demonizing of something they know so little about. I realize the absurdity of the comment, people frequently fear the unknown and the new, but so rarely does it reach such epic portions of fanaticism. Dire straits indeed are these. ESA needs a formal response, as does the game industry.

    For the record, the cigarette butt is the easier of the two ….

  122. 0
    Nekojin ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    add: Also take note of who is hosting the article. This isn’t SlashDot, JoyStiq, or a blog – this is PBS, a company that prides itself on delivering spin-free fact (or as close to spin-free as is humanly possible, anyway).

  123. 0
    Nekojin ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    gs2005: Grossman’s theories have been analyzed and discredited many times, but because what he says is emotionally appealing, it gets a wider audience of people who aren’t thinking critically about it – IE, people who won’t fact-check to see if there’s any truth to it, and just accept what he says is strict fact, because he claims to be an expert.

    Note first that this article was written by an MIT psychology professor. Note second that point #5 in the list specifically addresses Grossman’s theories.

    Grossman isn’t a psychologist. Never has been, probably never will be. He does not meet the ethical standards, at the very least. Some of the data his research is founded on (the parts about military fire rates in combat situations) was found out to be fraudulent – specifically, that his original source was later determined to have completely fabricated the data – and yet, Grossman still uses it as one of the core foundations for his theories.

  124. 0
    janarius ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    I would also add that if he talked his theories to any academic psychologists, they would find it rubbish with plenty of theoretical and empirical holes.

  125. 0
    GamerDad says:

    Wolfenstein 3D was shareware. You got the first three levels free, then you could mail order more if you liked. It’s what put Id on the map, Doom was sold the same way.

    Anyway, I was in High School when Wolfenstein hit. I’m used to hearing only people older than me talk out of their ass on this subject. Not people younger than me.

  126. 0
    DoggySpew ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Someday, someone is going to sue such group for slander. I hope I will be that one.

    Proceeds of that trial should go towards good causes, like Childs Play.

  127. 0
    Jabrwock ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    “I ran into this phenomenon when I was in middle school. The game “Wolfenstein 3D” was free and was the first killing simulation game on the market….”

    You naughty naughty pirate! Shame! :p

  128. 0
    gs2005 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Whoops, I meant to say “the military uses video games as murder simulators”, sorry. They actually do have some simulation for some things, but not anything dedicated like he claims.

  129. 0
    gs2005 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    That guy David Grossman needs to be seriously discredited with his “the military uses video games as simulators” because that blanket statement is factually untrue. As an employee of the military (almost for 2 years now), I find his uninformed comments endlessly rubbing me the wrong way.

    Why that guy gets any traction at all is beyond me. Ignorance is bliss…

  130. 0
    janarius ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    There’s a cult for every sucker in the world. I wonder how such a personality cult could survive in this time of age? And I do wonder how they get their info so badly and so one-sided? Here’s a solution, teach our kids not to follow those nut jobs.

  131. 0
    E. Zachary Knight ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I totally agree with Nightwing. This is the responsibility of the ESA and the ECA to respond to such claims. They don’t have to respond to every Thompson interview or essay by LaRouche, but when these groups use their agenda to sway an investigation of a homicide, then it is the ESA and ECA’s responsibility to counter those claims.

    We should not sit idly by while such events happen. Fighting court battles may give us precedence but does nothing to better our image. We need to activly fight these from the beginning not when it gets out of hand.

    Which is easier to fight, a smoldering cigirette butt or a raging forest fire?

  132. 0
    Yuki says:

    As Nightwing so kindly pointed out, i’m not bitching about Soapbox crap here, I bitching that these people get invited to political summits with no cournter point made by the ECA and ESA in many of the cases that we see of this.

    As for my comment about age, it was more a point of order then anything else, but when you look at the vast majority of Politicians and authority, you see a pattern.

    Every last one of them tends to be 50 or older.

    Hate to say it, but thats stupid in my opinion. Just cause someone is old, doesn’t mean there smart, just like just being young doesnt make you a fool, and so forth. Theres no balance in government anymore, its a bunch of old geezer scraping for power and screwing the public.

    Countersuits and stuff, I don’t know what the best course of action may wind up being, but ANY course of action is better then the current inaction the industry is taking.

    Sorry, but I’m getting tired of spending money on games all the time, and Belive me, I’m one of the biggiest supporters of the industry, even donate to the ESA and planned to join the ECA, but with so little action, I’m getting fed up with seeing my money seemingly being wasted on doing nothing.

    Sorry, but thats just how I see it. If the ESA and ECA won’t act, what good are they?

  133. 0
    nightwng2000 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Stinking Kevin,
    If it were just a “soapbox” (holding a newspaper interview, blathering on their website, or sending emails about their personal, religious, and/or political opinions), I’d agree. But being described as “experts” and being used to give testimony in a formal investigation is another matter altogether. Their misinformation and deceit now become a matter of formal record and used not only in making official determinations of this case, but could then be referred to, not only by media, but by law enforcement officials in later cases.

    It creates a ill conceived “profiling” catagory, based solely on misinformation and personal, religious, and/or political agendas and not FACTS about the individual or any other individual involved. Racial profiling, among other groups profiled, have been misused by those who hold their own personal, religious, and/or political agendas. Remember the Utah Mall shooting? Rebecca Walsh’s story was right on the money when she pointed out that tragedies seem to draw out the agenda seekers and massacre chasers. But, to date, those agenda seekers and massacre chasers weren’t using their claims to affect the investigation. Here, however, in the VTech case, they are.

    And, so, yes, I’d say there is no better reason for the ESA/ECA (especially the ECA) to take a few big steps at disspelling the misinformation and deceit that has been put forth by this group.

    NW2K Software

  134. 0
    tollwutig says:

    @ Yuki
    [i]”And people wonder why I have gotten so Hostile to the industry lately. It’s shit like this, here we have undeniable proof that these people are lying deciveing bastards and yet the ESA, ECA, and other industry groups do NOTHING about it.”[/i]

    Yuki you do know that the industry is not a single entity right? Really though from what I have seen these guys are hanging themselves without any real help from any of the Industry groups. Also if the Industry groups actually were to attempt to counter such utter nonsense, well that would just [i]prove[/i] them to be true.

    I know you’d like to see counter suits, and press responses to some of the utter nonsense put out by anti-game critics. Really though the industry groups, there PR people & lawyers know a lot more about this stuff than any of us. If they aren’t responding that is because it’s still best to just ignore them, and let their nonsense come out for what it is, nonsense. As long as the court constitutional challenges continue to go in the ESA’s favor there is no need to launch a publicity campaign. And considering how bad these bills are written it isn’t likely any of them will survive a constitutional challenge.
    Building legal precedent is the best means of combating such conspiracy theories. Keep quite and build the legal cases. Eventually politicians get the idea, and stop proposing legislation. Comic books, Music, & the movie industries have all succeeded against this type of onslaught. All of them used similar tactics.
    What would really help though is if certain game publishers wouldn’t push the envelope to an extreme and then expect the ESA to cover their asses.

  135. 0
    Waffles ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Why the hell are they still trying to link video games to this whole event? It was already reported that Cho didn’t even have a Playstation, let alone any video games in his room. Even his roommate went on record to say that hes never seen him play any games…

    The scapegoating of entertainment media has gotten to the point of sickening. And they’re not even saying a peep about just how much Cho got bullied in growing up…

  136. 0
    Stinking Kevin says:

    I am over 35, and consider myself at least as ideologically unpolluted as your post indicates you are, even if I may also be a little more politically pragmatic. I’ll try to forgive your age-ist comment as over-enthusiasm for your larger point.

    I think I share the emotions behind your post, but I’m not sure I agree with your solutions. I am not sure it is the place of the ESA or ECA to answer the soapbox rants of every nutjob who complains about games for the free publicity he’ll gain. Sometimes I think it might be better overall to ignore such mindless slander, instead of giving it any credibility or publicity by addressing it.

    Not to say I don’t appreciate Joystiq’s coverage, from a gamer’s perspective, but even Orland closes with a run-down of mainstream reasons to discredit anything LaRouche promotes.

    In any case, I favor the current focus of the ESA on these issues. I’d much rather have them defending the games industry in court, and preventing the implementation of unconstitutional legislation in states like IL, CA, MI, LA, (and soon, NY), then wasting time and clout with insignificant self-promoters like this.

  137. 0
    nightwng2000 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    [fr. L. ment-, mens; mind + cidium, killing]
    the undermining or destruction of a person’s mind or will, esp. by systematic means such as mental and physical torture, extensive interrogation, suggestion, training, and narcotics: brainwashing “

    ie, a tactic used by cults and certain “organizations” to force personal, religious, and/or political beliefs and agendas upon others. Usually beliefs and agendas presented as fact and non-fiction though they cannot be supported by FACTS and therefore must be force through “brainwashing” techniques. As opposed to fictional storylines with simulated acts which are not presented as non-fiction nor presented as the way to act in a non-fictional setting but only the way to act in the fictional setting.

    NW2K Software

  138. 0
    E. Zachary Knight ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    “Menticide. Okaaaaay. Brainwashing by any other name… if that were truly the case, why are there millions of stable, rational adults who played video games as kids (many still do) and never went over the deep end to kill anyone? “

    Because we are not stable. We just think we are. We have been trained by the bideo games to go about our lives as normal until the perfect moment to snap. /sarcasm

    As for the media cover up, LaRouche wants the false information spread on every paper and news show in the world. If it is not, it is a media cover up.

    I am sick of hearing that Cho played games. We have eye witnesses that state they never saw him play a game. We have police evidence reports that show no video games were confiscated. The only link to video games we have is a paragraph in an online article written based on unsubstantiated claims and the testimony of “experts” like Thompson and LaRouche.

    Please, someone come out with some new media to be a scapegoat so that video games can take a break.

  139. 0
    Brokenscope ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    Oh we were all brainwashed and programed. When the signal is finally sent we are going to go batshit loco and start killing the population en mass. Don’t you see? Its all a communist invasion, all the game devs are funded by Putinp! We must stop the commies, THE REDS ARE COMING SAVE THE REPUBLIC!!!!!! LAUNCH THE BOMBS!….

    Oh sorry I read a full article on the PAC website.

  140. 0
    Yuki says:

    And people wonder why I have gotten so Hostile to the industry lately. It’s shit like this, here we have undeniable proof that these people are lying deciveing bastards and yet the ESA, ECA, and other industry groups do NOTHING about it.


    Sorry for the language but it had to be said, this is pathetic when such blatant bullcrap is going down and the Industry doesn’t lift a finger t counter it.

    Sad indeed.

    As was said above, next people like PHelps,the eagle forum, Al Sharpton and others will be experts in hate crimes.

    Some times I wonder if we shouldn’t just have our goverment completely purged and replaced. I’m beginning to thing the country would be better off if everyone in power had to be under 35 years old.

    But seeing as I’m just a jaded gamer anyway, I don’t expect the ESA or ECA to actually do much about ths crap.

    They never did before after all.

  141. 0
    Nekojin ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    What cracks me up is the way these nutjobs twist the events. The Washington Post had the Counterstrike mention in their earliest version of the online story, but pulled that later. Why? There’s usually only one reason that a newspaper pulls a juicy tidbit like that: Their source was unreliable. Either it was an outright lie that was discovered later, or just a rumor that they couldn’t substantiate… either way, it wasn’t some sort of media cover-up, just an editor covering the newspaper’s ass from an overzealous reporter.

    – – – – –

    Menticide. Okaaaaay. Brainwashing by any other name… if that were truly the case, why are there millions of stable, rational adults who played video games as kids (many still do) and never went over the deep end to kill anyone?

  142. 0
    Benji says:

    “Proper legislation, designed to protect my generation from these games, is needed…”

    Explain what offense video games have committed that necessitates that we must be protected from them. Video games don’t insult, torment, or kill; they sit on a shelf in a store until you buy them, and then they sit on a shelf in your home until you use them, and then they sit in your console/PC until you’re done using them for now.
    You look like a big boy, Paul Mourino. Howzabout you try protecting yourself from things as benign as video games. V-Tech was certainly a tragedy, but I don’t demand that the government protect me from video games – I demand that they protect me from crazy people with guns.

  143. 0
    nightwng2000 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    It truly shows the incompetence of the investigative process when agenda seekers and massacre chasers and and conspiracy theorists are called as “experts”.

    Next thing ya know, members of the Eagles Forum and Fred Phelps will be called in as “experts” in Hate Crime murders of homosexuals.

    Whose ignorant idea was it to call these liars and deceivers in to give testimony?

    NW2K Software

  144. 0
    Pawsie says:

    maybe people are drug dealers, murders, and criminals because of video games. We should have a special service to help people who may be crazy because of gta. (sarcasm)

  145. 0
    SlyFox says:

    “Proper legislation, designed to protect my generation from these games, is needed…”

    Yeah… because you know what’s best for all those in “your generation”. All several million of them. Right. If you’re so worried, why don’t you go live with the lovely Amish people where you will never be allowed to come withing ten feet of one of those horribly evil videogames. Seriously, either sit down and shut up, or get out.

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