Could AO-rated Manhunt 2 Be Released on PC?
Could AO-rated Manhunt 2 Be Released on PC?
June 21, 2007
As the mushroom cloud formed by this week's multi-national nuking of Manhunt 2 begins to dissipate, it's clear that the game - in its present AO form - will never see the light of day on console (PS2, Wii) or handheld (PSP) hardware.That's because neither Sony nor Nintendo will license an AO game to run on their systems.
According to most reports, that leaves publisher Take Two with the Hobson's choice of either spending substantial money to edit the game down to an M-rating or canceling the project entirely.
But there is, perhaps, a third option.
A PC port of Manhunt 2 would avoid the licensing issues imposed by console manufacturers. The original had a PC version that appeared in April, 2004, about five months after Manhunt debuted on PS2. A PC version would, however, still face an uphill battle at retail, since the majors won't stock AO rated games.
GamePolitics Poll: What will Take Two do about Manhunt 2? Be sure to vote in our latest poll, located on the right sidebar.
Comments
I'd buy the AO rated version for PC.
I see your point but isn't it possible for this big stir to motivate PC gamers to buy the AO version?
But now that I think about it I still think I agree with you on how it would take away sales from the edited version.
Their real choices are slim, either cut it down to make it more M rated or release it only through Internet orders like the Postal series.
If Take-Two is serious in that they believe it has an artistic merit they will do the latter and release it through the Internet for PC only, cutting out the retailers who refuse to carry it & the console licenses. Taking a hit in the sales.
If Take-Two is just really in it to make a quick buck off of the controversy it'll be cut down so that it can receive an M rating and release it on all the consoles.
Now if they were into justice they would force any retailer who contracted to purchase so many copies to actually purchase them. I doubt it is possible though it would really depend on the contracts Take Two has signed with their distributors.
My own suspicion is a general release of an 'M' rated version in a few months time, maybe sooner, depends how prepared Rockstar were for this possibility, followed by Manhunt 2Xtreme or something later down the line. Probably direct from site or limited edition box set from 'select' retailers that'll burn a huge hole in your wallet.
If Rockstar does either, they'll look like pussies and lose a ton of credibility.
Say "No" to censorship - buy Rockstar Brand games.
Basically, this game, I am almost utterly certain, will be toned down.
I can't find much information on why Manhunt 2 would get tagged as such, aside from the Wii controller allowing people to carry out the acts of violence themselves. This is rather moot, since people user 17 aren't supposed to play the game under the existing rating system anyway.
I suspect the gameplay itself would change little, you may see some graphical changes, not just in 'gore' level, but in 'atmosphere' level as well, in essence, making it less 'phsychological' and more 'horror thriller'.
I find this astounding. They are worried about gamers doing BS like this, and yet--a mob beat a man to death with their bear hands--a man who did nothing. And yet, here are the politicians the world over squabbling about video games. Yeah, there's something wrong with this picture.
I first read that as Manhunt 2 - Al Gore Edition... O_o
Then I got this image in my head with the main character being replaced by Al Gore sneaking around killing all those who oppose him in his crusade to make sure no one can challenge his position/agenda.
A toned-down version for Wii and PS2/PSP release and a "Director's Cut" for either PC or Xbox Live would probably be the simplest solution. But, ideally, Rockstar will appeal to the ratings board or Nintendo and Sony will allow the content to play on their machines.
I understand that Sony and Nintendo are probably worried that allowing one Ao game to hit their consoles will open the floodgates to any type of content being released on their systems. But, the reality is that the respective companies still have to license each title on their platform. Instead of a sweeping "No Ao Games" policy, a case-by-case analysis should be used. Just because Manhunt 2 is licensed doesn't mean these companies are obligated to license "Hentai Bikini Porn Fun 2."
That said, I don't feel like there's a reason HBPF2 shouldn't be released. More adults play video games now than ever, yet the medium is still not regarded in the same way as other mediums. With movies, music, literature, and even comicbooks people have a choice of what type of subject matter they wish to consume. The latest breed of horror films have become known as "torture porn" and these films enjoy massive box office success, yet we can't even buy Manhunt 2?
A lot of this has to do with a huge flaw in the videogame industry: we lack choice. Consoles play games specifically made for that machine that must by licensed by the console's manufacturer. There aren't any true alternatives, no “clone” systems. If Sony suddenly declared that its DVD players would no longer play DVDs that Sony didn't deem appropriate, would anyone buy one? Of course not; you have the choice to go buy another brand of DVD player and enjoy the same content. But we do not have that type of choice in the videogame market.
When did we become a country so worried about hurting others feelings that we are willing to forfeit our rights? When did we become a place that will sacrifice freedom to turn a profit?
I didn’t even like the first Manhunt and I know this is just one game, but it stands for so much more than that.
If nothing else, Rockstar, could this game leak its way to the Internet (a la Thrill Kill)?
Shame on you Rockstar - you've shown you can do so much better than this in the past.
What's Blu-Ray and HD-DVD? It's specifically that.
Really, I don't care about Manhunt 2 AO rating. They tried pushing the envelope even more then they already did and got hit by the hammer. Is it wrong that it's being banned and restricted? Probably not. It will teach game companies that there is something, even in art, that's too much. People who say "torture porn" is extremely successful should look at the fact that most of those movies enjoy limited release at best, and quite a few of them crash and burn, while a few "mainstream" ones make a hefty profit.
And kudos to Nintendo and Sony for sticking to their guns. Designers should focus on the content and design of a game rather then "how violent/untasteful can we make this to get free publicity from Thompson and Co".
Xbox Live would still require MS's permission, which might be a problem, and those titles are restricted to a small size which Manhunt 2 won't fit in.
However you bring an interesting point: online distribution. Rockstar could release a PC port through Gametap or Steam, which are not as strict on ratings I believe. These online distributors are becoming increasingly more popular and a serivce like Steam could benefit greatly by having exclusive distribution rights to a game like Manhunt 2. It would certainly cement the brand name for the big hardcore PC audience.
And why shouldn't they release it there anyway? All the GTA games except for the Stories games are available on PC as well. Okay - Bully wasn't released for PC for some reason. But there's really no reason why they shouldn't do that. That'd make them easier to sell, too. At least in Germany AO games can be bought in most of the bigger stores or spechalised smaller video game stores.
Is it wrong that it’s being banned and restricted?
Sure as hell its wrong! Conformity is the disease of society, and not kudos for Nintendo and Sony. You, dear child, are clearly in the wrong. The game was not made to get free publicity, it was made to fill a demand that is on the edge of what currently accept to be the culture limit of virtual entertainment.
It is not for anyone, not Rockstar, not Sony, Nintendo, Wal-Mart, BestBuy, the Government or anyone else to determine what it is I watch and enjoy. That choice is purely and simply mine and mine alone, and anyone who attempts to take the right from me will face the full brunt of my fury.
I've said it before -- I will never play Manhunt 2--ever. It's not my cup of tea, but does that mean others shouldn't have the option to play it? No, absolutely not. My choice is my choice and doesn't extend beyond me.
Step 2 - Have second version of game already designed that will meet 'Rated M' standards
Step 3 - Submit Over-the-edge version
Step 4 - Wait for outrage and rating of AO
Step 5 - Bemoan your fate
Step 6 - Release version you already had designed for just this possibility.
Step 7 - Martyr + Money = WIN!
Damn, I just might be a tad cynical...
The Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD is a different scenario, they are competing over the movie studios to get the movies to there platform. They aren't denying the studios the ability to make the movie for the platform, they want the studios to make movies for their platform. Plus how do you know Rockstar was pushing the envelope for free publicity, maybe they just kept going with the track they were on and ended at the AO rating.
I like GoodRobotUs's idea about the fading to black. The game got the rating because of prolonged scenes of violence. Maybe Rockstar could make it so that if the player kills so many people in a certain amount of time, or for a prolonged amount of time, they pass out due to some strange reason that might not even be realistically possible. Then the excessive violence is no longer possible because the player can't continue to kill people.
The only thing that makes this different is its in the news and people know about it. Which will cause an uproar of stupid people when the game is release and its rated M for mature.
You man, you really seem like you have something against R*. I've seen you basically screaming that you hope they die because of this, or do you just hate all game companies that make "distasteful" games?
If T2/R* backs down, their dominating position in the games market and their incredibly big name will go down a notch, or two or twenty. That is the end result that shareholders would really, really, regret. Put it to you this way, if they release a watered down version of this game, not only will it not sell - they will lose a lot of respect at the same time. That loss will affect furture value and future sales.
On the other hand, the credibility and name brand will increase if T2/R* fight the watch dogs, release an AO game and essentially act like rockstars. Which I hope they do.
Too True. I agree 110%
Sometimes I wonder why people wish this to be prohibited. They can turn their heads, close their ears and ignore it. Trust me it works. I do it to mainstream pop-culture to the point where I constantly don't know who famous actors and actresses are when friends talk about them. I really don't have any interests in it all either so it really doesn't bother me because I choose not to pay attention to it.
Maybe people secretly want to look at things and in this case play them and that makes them feel guilty so instead of having it there temping them they want to remove the urge by having it prohibited... oh the ever so sweet vision of a character strangling one with their very own entrails while blood flows from their stomach like a geyser from the bowels of a demon freshly and violently violated by Satan himself... just way to tempting and you don't want to feel like your doing something that isn't pure and good.... Just a theory.(sorry, couldn't resist)
There is never too much when it comes to art. Well if you want to say you live in a free country at least. If you think that art can go too far then I guess you should admit that you don't want to live in a free country... Just another theory to ponder.
"“If Sony suddenly declared that its DVD players would no longer play DVDs that Sony didn’t deem appropriate, would anyone buy one?”
What’s Blu-Ray and HD-DVD? It’s specifically that."
The Blu-Ray HD-DVD situation is entirely different. Sony exercises control over what games can be released for it's PS2 based on content. This is not the case with Sony-back Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray movies are not restricted on content, and Sony Blu-Ray players will play whatever movies the studioes release. And, if they don't, you have the option to by a different brand of Blu-Rau player. There is competition in the Blu-Ray market. Your argument fails on several points because it is entirely distinguishable.
@Maurice
"“A toned-down version for Wii and PS2/PSP release and a “Director’s Cut” for either PC or Xbox Live would probably be the simplest solution.”
Xbox Live would still require MS’s permission, which might be a problem, and those titles are restricted to a small size which Manhunt 2 won’t fit in."
In the paragraph directly above that quote I already stated that MS would still have to license the title. But, the download restriction isn't that big of a hurdle. Downloads are no longer restricted to 50 MB and Microsoft has shown that it is willing to increase its size limits for particular titles. Further, it doesn't have to be a "Live Arcade" title specifically, which is the only thing the size restrictions pertain to. MS allows the download of huge files all the time: HD movies, game demos, Halo 3 and Shadowrun Betas, Etc.
They can always realease a special edition later for more profit, but why reduce your available market by 80-90% on first release? Yes, they'll lose 'rep' with a percentage of the gaming community, but that's a problem to be solved tomorrow, making Manhunt 2 a releasable game is a problem to deal with today.
Hence my efforts to spearhead an organization to provide said united front of gamers. With admittedly limited success thus far.
I'm not afraid to admit that I'd like to play it, too.
On the other hand, if Rockstar hacks the content back significantly in order to achieve an M-rating - and you better believe it'd have to be significant cuts at this point in order for that to happen - I'm out. Fighting the system may not be make the best business sense, but sometimes lines in the sand just can't be compromised. I find it difficult to believe that this hasn't been a heavily-politicized situation, and forking over the dough for an emasculated Manhunt 2 smacks a bit too much of, dare I say it, selling out.
What’s Blu-Ray and HD-DVD? It’s specifically that
Sony has enacted a similar, if less obvious policy with their Blu-Ray players. As Sony and the other studios that have backed it (Disney, et al.) have told Blu-Ray disc manufacturers not to do business with the porn industry. So in effect they have done with their Bu-Ray players what they have done with Manhunt 2 in that no titles they deem obscene can be played on their players. As a result, the porn industry has gone to HD-DVD - which is why I think that format will eventually win-out as it did with VHS back in the day. But that's an entirely different debate. (Incidentally, Sony also backed Betamax and Divx and look where that got them.)
June 21st, 2007 at 11:13 am
that united front of gamers does not sound like a bad idea, kind of like a voice for the people not fatcats who sit behind desks deciding what is good for the world and whats not"
When i read these comments, i can easily tell that there is *Rage* towards the censorcrats and their policies. Yet almost none of the people here even write letters towards politicians.....The gaming community is nearly devoid of activism, and now the ECA is looking less effective passing minute.
The way i see it, the first amendment is really the only thing protecting us, once it's breached, the medium we all know and love will go down in flames.
We can not allow that! Man your battle stations!
I couldn't agree me more. However, unless we want others dictating what we can and can't play, and telling us the rules of our, we need to reach an accord of some sort ...
Kinda like (ha! I love using random references) Pirates 3--put them all together in a room, and they'd kill each other within a week. Same mentality I think -- we are a varied group with different motivations and drives. Its all about finding that common thread ...
Jeez, I sound preachy. Apologies.
Hell, you have people in this room that are cheering on governments whenever those governments threaten or actually do remove their individual freedoms. Cheering them on!!
Great works like "I think the government is right to remove my rights and to treat me like a child. Yes, the government knows what is best for me so I don't mind losing my freedom to choose for myself - there is just too much choice out there, anyway."
Frankly - some people in here scare me.
That's China for you, but now people are challenging the Great Firewall.
Please sign the following if you agree with me. The wording is not the best but I tried to cover the most ground that has been covered here and elsewhere while not being overly wordy as I often am. Thank you.
http://www.petitiononline.com/4manhunt/petition.html
Great petition...everyone should sign it. It may not go very far or do a lot to help the situation, but I commend you, because it is a start!
That aside, the PC online distribution system (Steam, maybe?) to get their hands on this title in present form will be making money hand over fist. The game could even be worse than the original Manhunt (which, if you had the stomach for it, wasn't too bad), and it would be almost a license to print money. All this unprecedented rating does is start to make people think "Man, I HAVE to play this game now!".
Needless to say, I grossly oppose using the AO rating for terms relating to violence alone (as the rating was basically designed, as best as I can tell, to allow retailers to duck away from having to stock pornography due to issues relating to perceived blight, kinda like the X/NC-17 ratings for movies), and wonder, if the ESRB is going to use the AO rating to "ban" a game in the US like the European and Australian bureaucratic suits do, if the AO rating has outlived its purpose. If M and AO carry the same figurative weight, but an AO can be used as, in Manhunt parlance, a silenced pistol round to the base of the skull, then AO has got to go in favor of lumping everything into the M rating and letting retailers deal with these issues on a case-by-case basis.
But will they can the Wii version after all the effort and hype? This is Rockstar. They don't understand restraint.
Yeah, you got me on that one. I could have sworn however that Sony had backed Divx at the time. It was only after I posted that that I looked on Wikipedia and noticed Sony wasn't involved. D'oh!
Like you said tho, nice try.
That was the idea. Sony's way of discouraging the porn industry was to make it too cost-prohibitive for them to go Blu-Ray. Call it censorship by economics. That may sound like a conspiracy theory, but I wouldn't consider it outside the realm of possibility. The porn industry may make a lot of money, but they don't have as deep pockets or the other resources (lawyers and such) that major mainstream studios have access to.
That having been said, I still think porn is the unreported deciding factor. I have faith in porn. :)
You and me both. I play Anarchy Online and WoW--definitely a diverse group of people. I dunno, I've always been politically active, so it's my natural compulsion to make my views and opinions heard and those opinions of those around me. Unfortunately, the Vox Uni (One voice, in Latin) is something seldom heard amongst the din unless condemning something or someone.
It's something I'm passionate about, and somewhat driven. I'm personally trying to explore options or ways to go about Organizing a grass-roots group to represent Gamer Interests. It's slow going.
Just like trying to get one voice heard by writing letters, emails, calling politicians, the more the merrier. If anyone wants to jump on and help with at least trying to get something organized (if you never try, nothing will ever happen), I'm all for help. I know I can't get it done on my own.
Thanks for looking at the url. I have sent the petition link to Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Wired.com, the ECA, Rockstar and Take-Two. I am now sending it elsewhere to see how fast it spreads.
@ Everyone Else
When I signed, We had only 10 people! Let's start signing it left and right everyone.
"All formats of Manhut 2 are being delayed until Take 2 can edit the games and get an "M" rating instead of the "AO" rating that they have now."
IF the the makers of the console doesn't want to support a game, they damn well don't have to. It's there console, and they have a right to put what they want on it, no matter what. They are in it for money, and while this game may make money, they might lose more than they bargained for later.
A PC version would be cool. I bet it would do well just by that alone.
I doubt Steam would pick it up though, but hten again, idk whats their stance on the game.
You mis-understand the petition. The petition is to show the companies that R* and T2 have the support of the gaming industry. It was not to the government in any way, shape or form. The censorship claim is the "chilling effect" that has been discussed on previous threads, which has been discussed and, if I'm not mistaken, upheld in court. The chilling effect is a known phenomenon that indirectly creates censorship.
This is a first step towards standing against the growing tide of media censorship occurring world wide. Kudos DragonBomber, way to take some initiative. Petition signed.
The petition addresses the makers and society in general to generate discussion and support for our rights. It doesn't say anything is illegal or governmentally controlled. I know it's "legal" but that the console license/rating convection loop affected by the outside atmosphere is allowing it to continue.
I sent it via their official webforms. There was no either quick method for any of the console makers unfortunately.
Thanks to all who toss this link around. I know I will be busy on newsgroups, IRC, blogs, and email later tonight.
Anyways manhunt 2 is rated AO...big deal not like its the first AO game in history to run into problems.
ps:I say they should give Sony and Nintendo the finger and still release it on the wii and ps3 just to prove a point.
Congrats video game industry, you have just lost all my respect and confidence as a consumer. I will no longer purchase console games, or support the console industry in any way. Refusing to release AO games, and censoring AO content, represents an extremely unethical abuse of privatized authority and free speech. Third party developers should be free to publish and develop ANY content they see fit. A console developer should NOT have the power to prevent software developers from making games for their console. I am sick at how profit-driven this sad and childish industry has become. It is the bane of artistic expression, and the quality of ideas in gaming has suffered in response.
And people wonder why most people believe that video games are a childish play thing! The big console manufacturers have resorted to drastic measures to ensure that this industry remains disgustingly static and childish.
Run away with your childish and tasteless consumer base. Keep selling them shallow, censored, childish, and unwarranted junk that should not even be considered as a valid form of entertainment or art.
F Gaming.
petition signed, stamped, and advertised all over nintendo.com forum. Hope it works out alright.
It's a fine way to pry open those opressive markets (and give the distributors the finger).
How many people didn't know this was the case since 2 generations back?
The reason console manufacturers must license a game before it can be published for a console is the fact that part of the operating system for the game must be contained on the game disk itself. This means a game developer must license this OS before they can publish the code.
You see the game disk actually contains more than just the game itself, there is code on the disk that is provided by the console manufacturer to the developer. In order to get this code (and support for debugging your game on the console) a game developer must sign a license agreement with the console manufacturer.
In addition all of those Wii, PS2, Xbox, etc logos on the packaging have to be licensed, as they are trademarked logos and names.
So no Rockstar can't just release the game for the consoles anyway, and thumb their noses at the console manufacturers. They signed a legal agreement with Sony, Nintendo, & Microsoft to be able to publish games onto their respective consoles. Part of that agreement is that the console manufacturer has to approve of any game that is released onto the console. All three of the console manufacturers have policies not to allow AO rated games onto the consoles. Rockstar knew this before they developed Manhunt 2 so they shouldn't be overly surprised when they get told that Nintendo & Sony are going to refuse to allow the game to be published on the Wii, PSP, & PS2.
Also everyone Microsoft has the same policy for the Xbox & Xbox 360 regarding AO rated games as Sony & Nintendo, so don't look for Manhunt 2 as it currently is to be released on Xbox Live.
For everyone whining & crying about this and saying that Sony wouldn't do this on a DVD, yada yada yada please remember the following:
DVD, Blu-Ray, & HD-DVD are all open format standards. Yes even Blu-Ray as Sony is not the sole developer of the standard, just it's primary supporter. Because these are open standards anyone is allowed to use them for what ever content they wish.
The Wii, PSP, Playstation (1, 2 & 3) , Xbox, & Xbox 360 all contain proprietary Operating systems. These are not open standards, and the manufacturer has complete control over the content which can be published to it. These companies feel it would hurt their overall sales if they allow certain content to be published onto their systems. It's their decision, and economics supports this decision. Whine, bitch, moan all you wish but in reality the vast majority of people who own these consoles do not really care that Manhunt 2 is not going to be released unless it gets edited down. Call it censorship if you like, but in reality it's called economics. Video games & consoles are a commercial product, and if the product has the potential to cause economic harm to the company they are not going to pursue the product.
Rockstar knew upfront that none of the consoles would allow publication of a AO rated game, yet they decided to push the envelope of violence in Manhunt 2 knowing it could potentially get an AO rating. Rockstar dug the hole they are in with Manhunt 2 and considering their past behavior, I think the rest of the ESA is content in letting them get themselves out of it.
Guess what they should have the right to deny a dev a license on thier system. Especially if the dev signs an agreement when buying the dev kit and sdk. That is the nature of the closed platform, if you don't like it, do what you are already swearing to do, don't buy the console.
As for releasing it anyways, they can't unless they wish to be sued into oblivion, not to mention the fact that I bet Nintendo and sony both need to give them software that will identify the game and allow it to be played.
@Black Manta
1 company has the money to take a case all the way to the supreme court. Trust me porn has plenty of money to toss, but sometimes tossing money doesn't solve a problem.
@ Cash
Gamers are a rather united group, consumers on the other hand are a very divided group.
Bah, thats what the PC is for, I think Rockstar should revoke the Wii and Playstation games and just release it on the PC.
Gamers a united group? Do you realize just how oxymoronic that statement is, seeing as you just disagreed and told 3 different people they were totally and irrevocably wrong? You are the very dissension we are talking about, and yet you claim it doesn't exist.
Wow, good job there.
Furthermore, what could they possibly remove from this game to tame it down? It's over-the-top violence and gore by its very design at the basic level. Still, who's to stop them from making it? Nobody. But it's my opinion the Nintendo has just as much right to say, we think this game is inappropriate for our core audience and we don't want to associate our name or any of our branding with it. You can make a sign that says, "Support Gang Violence & Prostitution," and nobody can stop you, but I don't have to display it in my yard.
Lasty, games like this are not "adult," they are just sick and stupid. And just because we have freedoms doesn't mean we act all anarchistic and abuse them. doing whatever we please, and screw what anyone else thinks. That's not adult thinking, that's self-absorbed teenage thinking. Rockstar depends on this kind of blantent in your face sensationalism to fill their pockets with money. That's all it's about.
Anyways, signing a petition will not help in this fight. The only real impact would be a boycott of sorts. The best boycott would be to only purchase used games for your PS3 and Wii systems. This will continue to stimulate the economy and the game industry, allow you to play your favorite games, and yet not provide profits directly to Sony and Nintendo.
Sick and stupid games are "Adult" according to the ESRB! As we all know, Rockstar is a business, and in order to keep their business running, they have to make games that they know will sell. If you haven’t done your research on Manhunt 2, then you can’t call it stupid at all. The new AI is supposed to be amazing, and as for the game mechanics…its rockstar, how many games have they made that weren’r great? Strauss Zelnick calls the game “art” and