Not good for Manhunt 2, but at least these people are finally acknowledging that the ESRB DO give these ratings out for a reason. I fully agree that a game as mature as Manhunt 2 should be rated Adults Only. The pain in the arse is that Sony and Nintendo won't allow AO games on their systems, which is stupid, because what were they expecting? Ninetendo WANTED Manhunt 2 for crying out loud!

like we need their approval.

NY Times: R-rated movies gorier than AO Manhunt

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/26/ny-times-r-rated-movies-gorier-than-ao...

And what about the people who actually wanted to play an AO rated Manhunt 2?

“Hopefully Take-Two has learned from its Manhunt 2 experience and will undertake preventive measures to ensure its future games, including Grand Theft Auto IV, are appropriate for families and gamers."

I think that my brain melted reading this. I swear, what planet are these people living on, cause it sure isn't Earth.

I'm a Parent.

And -I- don't see this as a "victory for Parents and Children".

I see this as succumbing to dictator wannabes.
I see this as misinformation.
I see this as giving me less trust in the ESRB simply because I feel it has been manipulated by agenda seekers, massacre chasers, and liars and deceivers.

I am a Parent who makes informed decisions, not because someone else dictated to me what is or is not appropriate for me or my child, but because I actually do the research and don't limit myself to just a few opinions on one side or the other.

The ESRB is a minor tool in my overall examination of what I deem to be appropriate or not for my child. And no amount of bragging or glory seeking is going to make me trust NIMF, the PTC, John Bruce "Jack" Thompson, or any other glory hound bragging git is going to encourage me to accept their opinions as the sole source of my resource or the ones to make my decisions for me.

I'm sorry Dr. Walsh, but while I respect you overall by leaps and bounds over John Bruce, I don't agree with your opinion.

Is Manhunt 2 (or any other particular video game) inappropriate for children? My answer is simply this:

It's not my job to decide what is or is not appropriate for other people's children. I'd be happy to review it and give my opinion to others as to its content, playability, etc. But decide for them whether it is appropriate or not for THEIR child or decide whether they are "good" Parents or "bad" Parents because they decide to let their child play a particular games such as Manhunt 2? Nope. Not gonna do it. Wouldn't be the intelligent thing to do. No more intelligent than making such decisions for other people as to what books, TV shows, movies, music, religious beliefs, or anything else are appropriate or inappropriate for THEIR children. I may not feel their choices are appropriate for MY child. But that doesn't necessarily make my choices better or worse than theirs.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

Whu...bu.....j....

Manhunt 2 isn't a First Person Shooter.

-"At this rate, eventually the only video games that’ll be legal are those about ponies, kittens and rainbows."

So Manhunt 2 will feature razor-sharp rainbows impaling kittens which had just beheaded numerous ponies.

Another fascist group who thinks games are for kids. Isn't the average gamer 30 or so? If it was a "victory for children and parents", they just wouldn't buy the game for their kids. Its called 'being a parent'.

In other news, I'm looking for a mildly sizeable island where I can start my libertarian utopia.

At this rate, eventually the only video games that'll be legal are those about ponies, kittens and rainbows.

"I can image it now. “Grand Theft Auto IV. Rated E for Everyone.”"



Pardon me chap, if it would be okay with you I would very much like to borrow your vehicle. I saw some ne'redo-do-wells loitering down at the Cluckin' Chicken.

By all means. You should report those hooligans to the proper authorities straight away.

Thank you very much kind sir. I shall now drive your vehicle at a safe and leisurely pace to the police department, thus obeying all vehicular laws.



....yeah that would be a fun game.

Grand Theft Auto: Teletubbies Edition

@Erik:

I think you're giving them too much credit there. They don't need a reason to start talking about GTA, or to stay on-message for two consecutive sentences. And didn't you know? Saw is a children's movie. I watched it on the same DVD player that was used to play last year's Narnia movie. And they both come on identic-looking shiny discs! Duh.

Again I ask, why isn't there a Pro-Gamer(ing) movement to counter groups like this and the CCFC? Why?!

the NIMF are a bunch of opportunistic assholes who think video games are just a kids thing, when they clearly aren’t, I’ve been around since Mario came along, as with millions of other young adults, i hope you burn in hell
"Dr." David Walsh

@gamer81
I wish more people had enough time to complain about the practices NIMF uses.

Yes, it was the NIMF that once claimed the ESRB is "broken and beyond repair", among other nonsense. Now, they hail the ESRB. How could the ESRB be broken and beyond repair, yet now the NIMF cites it as credible?

Anyway, a complaint was filed against the NIMF a little while ago. Check it out here:

http://www.d3dgames.com/bbb.html

@clevercoveyence
Yes, you are absolutely right. I also didn't take any time to paragraph edit. I usually go back over my writings, but I am at work and had an important matter to attend to. Thanks for understanding what I wrote in spite of my deficiencies. I hope that NIMF looks past that also.

rdeegvain:

Great paragraph, but please, do learn to grammar. >_>
There is no excuse for mixing up "their" and "there."

My inquiry to NIMF:

To whom it may concern,

"I am somewhat confused by NIMF's position regarding Manhunt 2 as well as future releases such as Grand Theft Auto 4. In your statement you stated that games should be family friendly. Why such a biased view towards games and not all media? Do you also believe there should be no R rated movies? And what about romance novels should those be banned as well? And as an adult gamer should I not be allowed to have games to meet my adult tastes?

Your response on this matter would be appreciated.

Signed, An adult gamer"

These groups need to mind there own business. I have the right in this
free country to play what I want to play. These groups are idiots that have
nothing better to do than claim victory over a video game. If these groups
care so much about society then why dont they use all this time that they
spend trying to mess over Manhunt 2 and use the time to help out on way
more serious issues. Yea, I like really see these groups as real caring groups because they spend time trying to mess with our free rights rather
than going and saving peoples lives at the moments of messing with Manhunt 2.

I find it both curious and interesting how this attitude about "Video Games=Children's Entertainment" by various groups such as the NIMF almost parallels a similar school of thought years ago regarding cartoons, as they were also thought of the same way throughout the 1960's, '70s and most of the 80's with groups like Peggy Charren's ACT in the same position the the NIMF and CCFC are now.

I remember reading about the moral outrage over movies like Ralph Bakshi's Fritz the Cat. The perception at the time was something like, "Oh horrors! How DARE he make an X-Rated cartoon! Cartoons are meant for children!" Never mind the fact that a few decades earlier that there was no disitinction. The preception that cartoons were children's entertainment was fostered in large part by the financial success of Walt Disney and Hanna-Barbera, although when Warner Bros., Max Fleischer and Tex Avery made their cartoons, they weren't necessarily made with kids in mind.

Still, that Bakshi made an X-Rated cartoon - and would continue to push the envelope with films like Heavy Traffic, Coonskin and Wizards - earned him a reptuation of a "bad boy" and regarded by the industry almost as a pariah (an attitude not unlike the one given to Rockstar now).

It wasn't until the late '80s/early '90s with the popularity of Anime and the success of shows like The Simpsons and South Park that that attitude began to change. Now most people agree that not all cartoons have to be for kids. Family Guy and the shows on Adult Swim get made and hardly anyone of note complains. Okay the PTC is upset about Family Guy, but that kind of goes without saying. Still, there isn't as much resistance to the idea as there was before. That having been said, however, a PG-13 or R rated cartoon has yet to do well at the box office (remember Titan A.E.? Or Atlantis: The Lost Empire?)

I wonder if the same thing will happen eventually with video games? And that once a truly successful AO title gets released or given another decade or so the public's attitude towards video games as children's entertainment will shift as well? One can hope.

@rammsodat

I get that from all the politicians i write to also. but i feel i that voting and complaining about problems give me all the right in the world to gripe and complain when things go wrong. Until i can run for office i don't think my voice is really going to accomplish much, except make a couple individuals i know in person think twice about issues. meh one day they will learn, when something they want protected is attacked for being deemed inapropriate for children, then i will weep for their rights, while laughing at the irony. :'( :D

"Victory"?

What is this? Grade school?

How childish.

@ rdeegvainl

well you have a nice blanket responce form to look forward to if you get a reply at all.

Honestly after following politics for a while i totally understand why there's war in the world.

"Remember when NIMF said it was “broken and beyond repair?"

Actually, I think that was JT

@ Gamer Dad

I'm with you. Ithink that the ESA should give more support to organizations such as yours who have a mission to educate parents on gaming. It wastes a considerable amount of resources to convince other organizations such as NIMF and the CCFC that games are good. If they would put those resources toward organizations such as yours, it would be more benificial in the short and long run.

................... clearly morals have nothing to do with this ,this is a industry issues since AO titles are baned, next thing "they" will say is all mature content should be baned because its bad for children.....*head desk*

where the crying wolf over unreated NC17 DVDs in wallyworld and the grocery store for petes sake...??!?!?

You see, this is why I think Rockstar and the ESRB got together to make the AO publix. The ESRB never looked better than now and Rockstar gets all the parent groups talking about them. If R had shut up, Manhunt 2 would have been delayed for no reason and people would still complain that the ESRB messed up on Hot Coffee. Remember when NIMF said it was "broken and beyond repair"

Everyone go here: http://www.mediafamily.org/about/contact.asp , and complain about this. They are morons and don't know what we need, but what THEY need sicne they can't decide what to buy their children they need the esrb to do it for them....

"the ESRB has sent a strong message to Take-Two and other game makers that they no longer can push the envelope on gratuitous violence in video games."

Um this is just blatantly false. Video Game developers are more than welcome to push the envelope on gratuitous violence. They just have to be prepared to accept the consequences that an AO rating comes with.

An AO rating does not prevent the selling of a video game it just makes distribution very difficult.

"Hopefully Take-Two has learned from its Manhunt 2 experience and will undertake preventive measures to ensure its future games, including Grand Theft Auto IV, are appropriate for families and gamers."

Appropriate for families? again with the "games are only for children" thing... They have no understanding that games can be for adults only aswell, that games like films can cater to only adults. GTA IV will not change one bit due to Manhunt2's situation..

"As gaming technology continues to change, we hope to continue to work with the ESRB to ensure that future games have appropriate content and context for children. The uniqueness of Nintendo’s Wii gives game raters a new challenge when it comes to first-player shooter games. We take the ESRB’s decision about Manhunt 2 as a positive step in addressing this new challenge."

Considering how the PS2 and PSP versions of the game got the same AO rating, the wii-mote controls of Manhunt2 were a minor factor (if a factor at all), in rating the game AO... Even if this game wasn't coming out for the wii, it would have still gotten the same AO rating.

I think what they mean to say. "That this is a failure for parents and children" since parents have the government now policing their children, not to mention telling adults what they can and cannot play and such, bah.

GTA4 better NOT be "appropiate for families".....

[...] As you know, ESRB was questioned for employing rating to censored Manhunt II. BBFC banned the retailing of the game in UK, and other countries like USA followed the suit, immediately. To prove its worth, the ESRB has enforced ‘A Only’ rating to ‘Manhunt II’ that gamepolitics.com defines as the victory of parents and children. The distribution of game has been suspended, temporarily. [...]

Can someone explain to me just how sick and twisted a game has to be to deserve an AO rating? I am sure there is plenty of games out there far worse than manhunt 2, what bothers me the most is not the fact that there is such a thing as an AO rating but more that when the game gets released its going to be toned down a little bit so that it can pull only a M rating because Nintendo wont let an AO game be released on there system. Wich mean's me as an Adult canot play an Adults Only game...? What happend to my rights... I have played many games that i thought pushed the envelope and i am always waiting for something to come along and push it more. Why should we as adult gamers be punished because of a biased rating system if the system wasent flawed why do some games sneak by without an AO rating (Condemned: Criminal Origins, Resident Evil series) if these games are only rated mature then i would really like to see what an AO game must be like.

The bottom line is this, ESRB dosn't deserve to be handing out AO ratings unless there is explicit extreme hardcore nudity constantly along with constant extremely visual bloody realistic torturing that would cause most grown men to vomit.

And after that being said we should still be able to purchase the game if we so choose, but no we cant because its all about the money with Nintendo, if the game gets branded AO then it wont sell as manny copies as it would if it was branded M.

How about you solve the problem of not making enough money (nintendo) by asking Rockstar game to release a toned down version to be rated M and leave our AO version alone, You would hit both sides of the market and make twice the money.