June 28, 2007
My Xbox 360 is currently visiting Texas.GamePolitics, of course, is headquartered near Philadelphia, so we're not seeing much of one another these days. The reason for the long-distance relationship? My 360, which experienced the dreaded red lights of death failure only weeks after purchase, is undergoing warranty repair.
So are a lot of other gamers' 360's, apparently. Rob Watson, with whom I share game coverage duties for the Philadelphia Inquirer, suffered the same problem recently:
I try to leave my personal gaming woes out of this column, but... I got the dreaded Red Rings of Death... Microsoft continues to stick to its 3- to 5-percent defective rate for its next-gen console. My gut, how I judge all things of utmost importance, tells me that might be a tad low...
Web sites such as http://www.xbox360defective.com/ offer countless sad stories, including a guy who has gone through seven of them.
So what's the real number of broken 360's? I doubt it is as high as the estimates made by http://www.360-gamer.com/. Their informal poll found 2,315 (61 percent) responses to the survey have complained that they've got through at least one console..
That is just crazy, and there would be class action suits all over the place if that were even remotely close to being accurate. However, I will say this: Out of the 10 or so 360 owners I complained to about my box, two also had to replace or repair one.
Although GP is not - yet - ready to declare, as 360 Gamer did, a scandal, the alarming Xbox 360 failure rate is quickly reaching a tipping point. In his excellent Law of the Game blog, attorney Mark Methenitis, who has lost two 360's to red ring failure, discusses the legal implications:
The concept of a warranty is simple enough: Someone selling a product assures the buyer that of something... Microsoft has encountered an interesting problem with the 360. The failure rate is high, but so are sales. What is a gamer to do? ...What is a consumer to do?
Unfortunately, short of a product recall (which seems unlikely given that is has not happened yet and safety is not the issue) or a class action suit, the individual consumer is likely stuck. Why? The cost of an action against Microsoft would be astronomical, and more than likely, they will just settle before any court could place any actual fault on them in order to avoid future, similar suits.
Meanwhile, the anecdotal evidence mounts. 1up has a story about a gamer who is on his 12th 360. A U.K. repair company, MicroMart (NE) Ltd., has stopped servicing the red lights failure. A note on the company's home page reads:
Micromart has now withdrawn from offering a Repair Service for the dreaded 3 Red Lights fault. This problem is endemic on the XBox 360 console and the volume has made this repair non-viable. Other repairs to the XBox 360 are still being supported.
UPDATE: Next-Gen has more from MicroMart, including this gem of a quote:
We were getting a phenomenal amount of these things coming through. We were seeing about 30 a week coming in with the same problem which we identified as a fundamental motherboard fault...
We decided it wasn’t in anybody’s best interests to continue the sham that this fault is easily repaired.
Sham? Strong words from in-the-know techies.
What is Microsoft's position? Yes, they have upped their 360 warranty coverage. But if you're selling a defective product, that's probably a given. The 1up story cites some corporate double-talk from Microsoft pitchman Peter Moore:
I can't comment on failure rates, because it's just not something - it's a moving target. What this consumer should worry about is the way that we've treated him. Y'know, things break, and if we've treated him well and fixed his problem, that's something that we're focused on right now.
GP: We could go on and on. Stories from disappointed Xbox 360 owners abound on the Net. Perhaps it is time that some political pressure should be brought to bear on behalf of gamers for a change.
Comments
Re: Xbox 360 Hardware Failures - Is It Time for Consumer,
We own three XBox 360s in our house. So far we've had seven repairs on those three XBoxes. The last was an out of warranty repair for a faulty DVD ROM -- it would simply not read discs. That was less than a month ago. It cost me $99 to have the DVD replaced. Now less than a month later this xbox gets the three red rings of death. This is totally and completely unacceptable. We've bought three 360s and will now have 8 repairs on them. Two have been fixed three times and one of them twice! EVERY Xbox serial number that we've seen in this house has been replaced, either in or out of warranty. That is a 100% failure rate.
I was told by Microsoft that starting Monday July 9th, New hardware will be put in xbox 360s.
I am shipping mine off Today, July 16, 2007.
Please let me know if you get new hardware, new heatsink, new dvd player as I want to know if they are still sending out the same old refurbs.
At this point I'm under warranty, and no money comes out of my pocket, just loss of game time. I also know 2 other people that have the same problem. And I had to laugh when i went to a local Target's gaming department and saw they're demo xbox sitting in the display case, flashing the 3 red lights. 3 to 5 percent? maybe they meant 3 out of 5 consoles.
You can contact these guys, get your 360 fixed affordably.
http://www.xbox360repair.biz
I call XBL Support to remedy the situation and after many hours of work to jump through their hoops, they are basically telling me to go away and I'm not going to be helped because they consider my Elite purchase an "upgrade" instead of a replacement for a broken system.
I'm not into piracy and I just want to use the DLC in the same manner I was entitled to on the original console used for purchase. I created a new gamertag per their instructions and I am using that one now. I cancelled the old one and was OFFERED a refund to which I accepted. That was on May 20th. I waited my 30 days and hadn't received the refund. I called back and was told I wasn't getting the points. I had to explain that I wasn't calling for the points and I was calling about the refund a duly authorized XBL Support rep promised me I would get and am legally entitled to now. They told me I wasn't getting anything back. I explained to them what the guy said and they actually took the time to look at the ticket at that point, realized he actually did attempt a refund, and then promised to call me back with an update. That was on June 20th. Here it is, July 11th, and so far I'm waiting on a reply. I've also been told, at the very least, I'll get a free month of XBL. A free month??? Are you kidding me? Are you frickin' joking? Like that's going to compensate me for the hassle of having to deal with being hung up on by an XBL supervisor, the hours I've spent dealing with people that will ask me a question and then break me off before I finishing answering it, or the original issue to begin with. I'm at a financial loss for my troubles and will be out additional funds to re-purchase the exact same content I'm entitled to use anyway.
It's a terrible policy and business model and, quite frankly, I'm shocked that Microsoft treats customers in this manner.
I'm a 38 year old Network Security professional and I'm being treated like a kid who's trying to get one over on Microsoft.
Yeah, my experience with XBL Support has been more than a hassle and being discriminated against is not something I take lightly.
-Sixty GT: SixTGunR
July 10th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
New Class Action Lawsuite Filed Against Microsoft for the xbox 360 scratchign disks.
Download the actual Lawsuit from my site.
http://xbox360defective.com/lawsuit.php
Class Action Suit charging 360 scratches disks.
Even after My very first xbox 360 Launch console crashed, 3 RED LIGHTS OF DEATH,
Even after I started this website right away when I found out Microsoft was selling defective game consoles and trying to charge us to fix them way back in early 2006,
Even after I have received 3 defective REFURBS from the INEPT REFURB CENTER IN MC ALLEN TEXAS,
Even after I have been all over the internet, all over the Better Business Bureau, the Consumer Protection Agency, the Federal Trade Commission and tons of News Groups, Forums and
Even After spending COUNTLESS HOURS ON THE TELEPHONE WITH TECHNICAL SUPPORT AT MIDCROSOFT explaining about all the pieces of crapy they keep sending me,
Even after Microsoft changes the warranty for the xbox 360 fron 90 days to 1 year,
Even after microsoft gets called on the carpet by some agency and WEAKLY ADMITS THEIR IS A PROBLEM WITH THE XBOX 360 AND GOES PUBLIC WITH A VERY, VERY LIMITED 3 YEAR WARRANTY for all who have hte 3 red lights of death, ( YOU DO REALIZE THAT YOU CAN ONLY GET YOUR 360 FIXED IF YOU HAVE YOUR ORIGINAL SALES RECEIPT OR A COPY, PROOF OF PURCHASE)
Even after all the hell I have been through with this $400.00 Microsoft Game console,
MICROSOFT HAS THE TESTICALS TO SEND ME ANOTHER DEFECTIVE REFURB, EVEN AFTER THEY ARE ALL OVER THE NEWS FOR SENDING OUT DEFECTIVE 360s.
I am truly amazed at how LOW Microsoft can go.
They care so little about their consumers that they do not even care enough to make sure a customer who has already had 3 or 4 defective xbox 360s would atleast get 1, brand new working xbox 360 with the latest updates in hardware.
Yeah, right, Imagine that. Microsoft actually caring about their customers.
Let me ask you a question:
If you Say, I will go and fix someone's xbox 360, and do not.
or
You Actually do, fix someone's xbox 360, and do not talk about it.
Which is better?
Microsoft talks a lot about Most having a wonderful experience, and they talk a lot about how the satisfaction of the customer is priority 1, but the records show they don't give a flying shi^ about those of us who have spent money on ther test box, the xbox 360.
Signed... Owner of xbox360defective.com
And, the person who just now received another
BULL (MANURE) REFURB THAT IS DEFECTIVE.
July 7, 2007
Don’t waste your time with Microsoft customer service. They will keep you on hold for an hour or more and simply read scripted responses to you.
File a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Use this link and follow the instructions. Microsoft headquarters is located in the State of Washington.
https://odr.bbb.org/odrweb/public/GetStarted.aspx
The BBB will contact them and work on your behalf to resolve the issue. If a business receives enough formal complaints, it sends a strong message to lawmakers.
Stand up for yourself and hold Microsoft accountable for their deceptive business practices. There is no excuse for producing such a large number of defective XBOX 360 units.
Today however, after 18 months of working quite well, the 3 red lights appears to be terminal! None of the suggested ideas work for me, so I dunno what to do! I really don't wanna waste money getting it "fixed" and have it break again later in its life. If the problem really is endemic then it does show that M$ really rushed it out to get a head start on the ol' PS3. I sorta wish i'd waited for PS3, but I really enjoyed Oblivion and still play (well, played) it nearly a year after i bought it :)
Ah well, it was one of the first batch, maybe they will fix it for free :D
I commend microsoft for taking responsibility. I wouldn't trade my xbox for anything.
There's a link of the story as well as a link to the video (for those who speak french).
http://www.radio-canada.ca/actualite/v2/lafacture/niveau2_14651.shtml
If you want, I can give you a translation.
Very good website you got.
I'm not here to excuse MS for the problems with the 360, it's more than apparent that it's greater than an "isolated issue", but if you're going to do something, then do something, start a class action suit, take MS to the Better Business Bureau, whatever you want, but don't just sit there and bash MS because they're not jumping to fix your problem either. If you're just posting to bash MS and say you won't buy they're product because of the situation, then you're not helping to fix anything.
Why on earth would I want to buy a console made by these chumps?
I worked at a software company - all they do is work to quarter end. Rush to get things out to meet targets and to hell with the returns - that's for another department in the next quarter.... sell, sell, sell... rush rush rush.
I am not saying Sony is the be all and end all, but MS is one vendor I will always avoid.
Just thought i throw that out their for those who are gonna stand by the Xbox360... considering the failures and all, it might be a good investment... unlike the UK, i don't think most countries have laws about equitment failing right after warrenty expires.... me... i'm gonna stick with my launch day PS2 which has yet to fail me, for atleast a few more months or so, until next-gen get some better games and has a price drop or two =P
My console is not heavily used, it sits where its got enough ventilation, and its currently suffered a massive three red light hardware failure.
This is a fault with the 360. This is a re-occuring defect because so many people have the same problem. It must be assumed that all 360's are made in exactly the same way, Therfore its reasonable to assume that if your 360 has not frozen yet that it probably will. You are in denial, its understandable, but there was absolutely no reason for my 360 to break. I'd been playing it for ten minutes that day.
M$ are not a company that you can trust to be honest when announcing defect rates. Everything they do or say, their only concern is the profit margin.
It's a shame because the 360 is a good games console. I'm ringing M$ later to try and demand a free repair 3 months after my warrenty expired.
If not I will try and take it to the store where i bought it because in the UK, there are laws which state that electrical products should still not fail just after their warranty has expired and that is down to the retailer.
I purchased a launch day 360 and was pretty excited about it. Sure, after a few weeks it began to freeze here and there. Nothing really to get nervous about, it could be the game or IF it was the system perhaps a firmware update would stop the freezes right? A couple more weeks went by and a few more symptoms started popping up. The freezes would now be accompanied by 2bit (think atari 2600) noises, my system would display artifacts on start up that would go away, and/or during gameplay the framerate would start to drop until it crawled to a nice little freeze. The icing on the cake is the red ring error and a broken 360 that might run for 2min at a time before locking up and displaying some artifacts (horizontal/vertical white dotted lines or the very hip and cool checkered board thing). Seriously, checkered board artifacts is SOOO in this Spring.
"Not a big deal" I thought, "that's the risk you take with getting launch day hardware." I got my new 360 (or should I say scratched up refurbished unit) and spent extra money on the Pelican fan stand. I even put the 360 console across the room away from my LCD tv which also runs hot. Sure enough, 1.5mos later I experienced some freezing issues. I really began to get concerned when a few weeks later after that I started to get freezing/artifacts/2bit noises/and red ring of death. I sent it in for a replacement.
Alright, now I received my 3rd 360 console and I went out and purchased a Nyko Intercooler and used it with the Pelican fanstand. If you are going to do this you better have some free time and a Dremmel tool because the Pelican fan stand will need to be modified. While I was at it I decided to also put a custom fan into the Pelican stand as well, now I had the double threat going. "No fail this time buddy!" However, the exact same fate for #3 about 2mos later. I sent that bad boy in as well.
"OKAY, this is getting a little ridiculous" I thought. I came up with a plan. I went out and purchased some high performance PC fans (3) and stuck them on my new horizontal 360, two blowing air into the system via bottom and topside and one helping to pull air out the exhaust in the back. That's right, my living room sounded like I was testing prototype jet engines! Additionally, I stuck the 360 next to the window and living room fan FAR away from the television. Guess what happened 4mos later? Yup, red rings baby. Except this time I was about 10 days out of my 1yr MS warranty. Let's forget the fact that I had probably spent about a total of 2-3 months just shipping and receiving dead consoles to and from MS. MS then told me it was $140 to fix it (they would not tell me if I would get my same console back, so most likely I would be paying for another broken/scratched up refurbished unit) and I could keep the warranty going FOR ONLY $25 a year! I thought to myself, after all the crap I have gone through and the money I have pumped into MS (I own about 30games, Live, 12 arcade games, 4 controllers, marketplace crap blah blah blah) they are going to stick it to me?! On top of that I don't trust the system anymore.
I mean looking back, when have you ever heard about gamers having to be SOOOO careful around a piece of hardware, EVEN OUTSIDE OF GAMING CONSOLES?!!! I just said screw it and sold the piece of junk off. Maybe someday I will get another one, I have been stoked about Mass Effect for sometime, but if Sony cuts the price of the PS3 and comes out with some decent titles this holiday season I think I will be getting a PS3. And yes, I got a Wii so my wife and I could play some games but unfortunately there aren't any games out for the Wii either. This next gen gaming thing is just soo freakin' awesome! Best Gen Ever!!
What I'm a fan of is a reliable affordable console with plenty of games that I'm interested in with HD graphics capabilities(sorry wii). I don't mean to hate on the Wii, I'll eventually buy it. But first I think I want an Atari 2600, a commodore 64, controllers for my NES and mario 1,2,3 (mine are broke), to find my sega genesis/sega cd stuff, and depending on what the future holds, a 360 or ps3. Oh yea to also find my freakin dreamcast games and controllers. I just can't think of where i put them it was such a long time ago. Im thinking its time to rebuild my collection. Next gen can wait.
So far its still pretty close between a ps3 and 360. I mean 360 still only has only a few games I have interest in so the lack of ps3 games isn't too big of a deal for me. What I am worried about is durability, price and future games. I'm kinda on the fence.
I have had it since March and the little trooper has been chugging along like it is supposed to. I will say it is being a good little machine.
M$ has to own up to this problem and fix it ASAP in my opinion.
You do realize the next generation of consoles will probably come out in 7 to 8 years? That's an awfully long time, dealing with complaints of customers...
Its also pretty hard to set up a whole new system. I think they are going to wait until their next system to solve that issue. Nintendo's Wii-Mote chucking problem was waaaaaaaay too simple to solve.
My Wii froze when I was playing RE4 Wii Edition...should I go get taht repaired too? =P
I picked up the ps3 and the build quality is absolutely stunning. Quiet as a mouse and rock solid, no freezes, disc scratching, overheating, etc..
But MS being MS there is not "problem" the fail rate is a minuim "5%"........., you'd think dealing with the problem early and quickly would have been better/faster/cheaper for everyone...
Are you ignoring the fact that MicroMart? Micromart is not just a PS fanboy trolling, they are an actual company that fixes M$'s defective product. They are in-the-know when it comes to the the faults the product has and they say
" We were getting a phenomenal amount of these things coming through. We were seeing about 30 a week coming in with the same problem which we identified as a fundamental motherboard fault…
We decided it wasn’t in anybody’s best interests to continue the sham that this fault is easily repaired."
Yes this is just one company but they are refusing to fix any 360's with that problem because it is too much for them to handle. And they are also calling it a sham meaning its pointless to fix because its going to just screw up again. So yea sure you can claim that everyone complaining is just a PS fan, and im sure some are, but the fact is MicroMart has no reason to lie about it. They are making money fixing these defective products and the demand is too high for them to keep up with so they are trying to concentrate on what they can handle.
Pictures wouldn't be hard proof, hard proof lies in the hands of M$. They are refusing to give us updates on the actual number of systems that have repaired. That number, or at least percentage, is definately something they could handle. You must understand that to get a console repaired you must give them a serial number so they must be recording it somehow. They are withholding this information from us so it must not be good news. Sure they are saying 3-5 percent, and they are claiming its a moving number. Its obvious they are trying to fix it, but we should the actual numbers and have access to the hard proof that they hold.
Why are they keeping us in the dark? Until they provide us with a good reason we have to assume the obvious, that they are worried about the public reaction.
Not a def for MS, but I want more info and unbiased investigation.
There is an article that explain the systemic issue with the Xbox 360. The problem is that the cooling design of the 360 doesn’t hold up. The excess amount of heat that remain within the GPU can cause the entire mainboard to flex - a phenomenon largely caused by the X-shaped brackets that hold the heatsinks on under the mainboard. They hold the heatsinks down to the chips with a tension fit that presses up directly underneath those chips. So when the system gets too hot, the combination of loosened solder with a mainboard that flexes from heat causes the GPU or CPU to actually break its connection from the board - resulting in the 3 red lights and secondary error code 0102 (the “unknown hardware error” code).
So who is losing more money, Sony or M$?
On one side we have a system that is really expensive to make and is sold for less to try to get people to buy it. And its still really expensive so no one is buying it, or making games for it.
On the other side we have a system that isn't losing as much money off their console but now they are having to spend loads of money repairing them. Repairing so many that companies are beginning to turn down consoles because the demand is too high. I'd like to know the real numbers on how many systems total have needed to be repaired or replaced.
I bet good ol' Nintendo is sitting back with a grin on their face. Sure their system's graphics arn't amazing and the games don't look as pretty and some of the art in games(wario ware) make feel extremely proud of what I can acomplish in 2 hours.
GoodRobotUS-
I'd like to know that as well. Its a nice feature for PC gamers, or anyone that pushes their PC's limitations. It would be worth it in the long run for your system to shut down once it reaches a certain temperature. Sure you might lose your place in your game... but would you rather replay the game or have to get your system repaired or replaced? I know right now I'm pretty happy I decided to get a computer and not a 360. Computers are very reliable if it has proper cooling.
M$-
Software is different from hardware. You might beable to get away with releasing software that is full of bugs but when you do it with hardware its going to bite you in the ass.
Was on my 3rd 360, going on 4th when I decided the best way to solve the problem was get a PS3.
At any rate, while consumers taking legal action or the government intervening may prove a worthwhile solution, I know of a way that will get an IMMEDIATE response from M$ and kick them into gear.
It's all up to Sony. Well, Nintendo could do it, too. But I don't think they would given their reputation.
PLAY DIRTY, SONY. At this year's E3, call out M$ for their hardware failures. Poke fun at them, make jokes, talk all kinds of trash. Shoot, if you were smart, you'd start contacting the retail companies to see if you could gather some statistics of your own concerning failure rates and such.
Poll consumers, do some guerilla research, and when E3 rolls around, just after M$ touts Halo 3 as its shining beacon that everyone should follow, drop some statistical bombs on the gaming public. Forget about Killzone 2, MGS4, FF13, a new controller, or whatever else you have planned. Playing dirty and targeting M$ hardware failures will gain you more ground even if you promised a new feature on the PS3 that would wipe your arse for you.
I can think of nothing better for putting an end to this lingering issue, and possibly regain some of that lost ground. If nothing else, that would certainly light a fire under M$'s ass and get them to take some kind of action.
COME ON, SONY! PLAY DIRTY!
Hopefully, I am that lucky as well, I just got my 360 this month.
It certainly sounds like some kind of power/heat problem, doesn't the 360 have any kind of emergency temperature shut-down or anything? (I don't own any consoles, so I'm completely in the dark here)