Sony and Nintendo have the right to respect their fans and not bullshit them on stuff like this.

I am with Tom on this one again. I mean really, why can't these anti-game people just leave us alone? I am really sick and tired of these people. Who is trying to restrict freedom of speech.

Restricting freedom of speech also equals to support of rioting. These people think highly of themselves and that free speech is useless. But I disagree, I tell you. Freedom of speech is important because we can express our own opinions freely without the use of weapons. But did Jack and his boys respect that? NO! This only shows that they want us to fight with them. But sorry, we will not fight with them unless we are intimidated or being forced to.

@Rob

Your argument fails on this point:

Under the current regulations its not very likely the game would have gotten an M rating in it's current form anyway if the gonad chopping etc. is really in there.

Extreme violence is one thing, extreme violence with a tint of sexuality is probably what drove this over the edge.

I personally think it will just be a question of time until "Saw like" games will be as acceptable as the movie versions, it's just that the politicals and popular press are watching the gaming industry, the ESRB and the european equivalent like a hawk at the moment.

Also, it's the shops themselves who started with the "OMG we will never sell AO titles!!!!!11!! many many years ago.

The shops thus veto the chances of any AO title becoming a succes.

This still makes AO titles financial suicide if they are sold in land based shops.

Sad but true.

@ Anon GP Fan:

No they didn't, and your quote proved that. He wants M rated content on Wii. He said "M rated". He was expecting Manhunt 2 to be rated M, not AO.

Et tu, Aime?

@jer

Well, remembering the Reservoir Dogs spiel, I'd say that there would be a literal shitstorm over it.

@GamerDad

"I hear you. YOU feel there are certain lines that shouldn’t be crossed. I do too. The problem is when people who are more easily offended draw the line, right? Well, there are clearly people who are even less offended than us who don’t like where WE draw the line."

I've seen this more than once, where we have these "all or nothing" types who think we should have no censorship whatsoever, however, their's a balance to it. Those who wish to see the content should be able see it, and those don't wish to see or for their children to see it should have the ability[or the common sense] to avoid it, not for media to be overly sanitized to make sure no one is offended, or for media to be let loose and shoved in the face of everyone regardless if they want it or not.

@ Jim

I hear you. YOU feel there are certain lines that shouldn't be crossed. I do too. The problem is when people who are more easily offended draw the line, right? Well, there are clearly people who are even less offended than us who don't like where WE draw the line.

See where I'm going? Watch, the ESRB, industry, etc., are going to get a lot of pressure to give GTA 4 an AO now. And Manhunt 2 will be used to strengthen the argument and show precedent.

Some activists need to be taught that adults play games, yes.

But. on the left and the right (the Politically Correct and the Bible Belt you might say) a lot of them DO realize that this is for adults. They do.

It's just that they don't want adults playing it either. They cloak themselves as child-protectors, but really they're standing around going "Culture stop changing!" and believing that Hollywood and Games are leading the country to ruin.

It's another tactic in the "culture war."

Why are they at nintendo's throat? This is like asking Muvico's Manager why he did get Hostel Unrated version.

If Reggie really wanted to end the hardcore gamer's misconception of Nintendo only making systems for babies, then defying the rest of the industry and accepting the AO rated Manhunt 2 would really be the smartest thing to do. People would never call Wii a Kiddie Only system ever again. Not to mention it is a bit pathetic that Nintendo begs for a game, only to shove it away when they can't take the heat. Sony isn't any better, but they were probably going to get the game anyway, and not Wii.

This is bullshit, this pretty much tells us that even if the game was the same as it is now but with an M rating they'd allow it. See? This proves that they're only turning it away because of the rating and not because they actually care about the content. If they had any balls at all, they allow it on the Wii. They'd break away from their "Kiddie" image and be setting a new standard in gaming where we stop catering to the "kiddie" image that video games as a whole are given.

I respect that console manufacturers have every right to dictate what they'll accept for their consoles. That is their right. But I don't like it any more than I do when any game gets effectively banned (which is what AO amounts to because of this) for any reason.

See, the people who want to ban all violent games are drawing a line in the sand. "These games are offensive and unacceptable!!"

When the ESRB gives an AO, the ESRB is effectively drawing a line in the sand. "NO THESE games are offensive and unacceptable!!"

When retailers opt not to sell AO games, and console makers decline to approve them, and even when developers self-censor, THEY are drawing a line in the sand: "This game is offensive and unacceptable.!!"

See,
I think adult gamers should decide for themselves what's offensive and unacceptable. I'm opposed to all lines drawn in the sand to protect me and my kids. Parents need accurate information so they can make informed decisions, the ESRB does a mediocre to fair job at this, but the AO rating doesn't help anyone. It just amounts to banning.

For the record I have no interest in Manhunt 2 and I'm really tired of seeing that damn box here at GamePolitics. I think we should change the logo for Manhunt 2 to a bunny or something... but I digress.

It seems like the interviewers wanted to catch Reggie in a lie or something, but it's clear he wants M rated games to appeal to mature audiences, not AO.

I truly think that the publishers and retailers out there should sell AO games, to adults, their intended audience. I'm 15, so I can't get AO games, and i doubt my parents would let me get them, but I bet my ass that gamers over 18 would at least havge the ability to see the content they wish to see

Some of you are missing the Point.

Rockstar developed the game KNOWING that AO games were not being licensed for the Wii. (And the PS3). That is the Console Developer's right.

Your argument (To use different companies to illustrate the point) is that Disney Should Have to Market Pornography because to NOT market Porn discriminates against adults.

That is silly. You should be pissed at Rockstar. Rockstar has caused the Development community a HUGE amount of grief by being irresponsible Juveniles across the board.

Because of the increased attention, even greater amounts of funds and time are spent by developers to meet ever-more stringent ESRB standards.

Thanks Rockstar, you bunch of A-holes.

Roger Bennett
"It is most interesting to note that the guidelines used in reaching this decision by the BBFC includes the assumed criteria that because games are interactive, they are different to other forms of screen entertainment and should be rated accordingly."

I was glad to see someone admit how much political BS likely goes behind this decision, the reality that valid studies into video games are ignored, and even more so to see a mention of how the control/immersion factor is isolating videogames from other media forms in terms of rating.

This stance, is in stark contrast to the one held by more influential US industry members. As I pointed out on Wired's Game|Life blog, Reggie seems to think the Wii controls of Manhunt will in the end be fine. Should not be an issue in affecting the rating? Should not be an issue over how once M titles without Wiimote control could be rated harsher?

Reggie Fils-Aime
"That’s an issue for the ESRB and Rockstar to work through. And as I understand the ESRB guidelines, the Wii controls should not be an issue."

There's a slippery slope here for the ESRB and Nintendo of America. In some of the statements by Patricia Vance of the ESRB, Reggie's quote above is proven unfortunately misled (specifically that the "Wii controls should not be an issue"). There seems to be a conflict in how the ESRB educates the public about their ratings are produced and how they are actually produced. In their flyers and on the website their is no mention of method/level of interaction of control factoring in.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/feature/esrb-head-talks-ao-manhunt-2-and-commun...
and other sites quote Vance as saying the following with respect to controls:

"We've always been very clear about the fact that the degree of player control is one of several elements that the ESRB considers in the assignment of ratings, including the content itself, it's frequency, intensity and realism, context within which it is presented, and the reward system. The interactive nature of games certainly differentiates them from more passive forms of media like films and televisions, which is why the ESRB system takes these other unique characteristics into consideration."

So, we have a very interesting factor to keep tabs on. One perhaps that we have not seen as much despite twin thumbstick controls and rumble feedback filling M titles for some time. The media and windbags shouting that the controls allow damage to be done are being backed up in a way by the ESRB if controls are being accounted for despite a LACK of this notice being given to consumers.

Content has always been stressed in the printed material and website, not control. A precedent of a slash motion with rendered violence on screen being different from watching a much more realistic movie has now officially been set and accepted by the watchdogs who are supposedly trying to keep the government off the industry's back. Funny how the procedure of rating games can be turned around to cover the ESRB's butt when they need it to. I hope they intend to change the flyers and resubmit them to stores because right now, they are misleading and potentially fraudulent. I can only imagine some crazy parents jumping all over this lack of advisement over "realistic controls" as a means to sue for their child's insane (yet unrelated) behavior.

Is anyone else annoyed with the double talk and side-stepping going on across the board?

Here is my two cents, for what it is worth. As much as it irritates me to have Manhunt 2 postponed, delayed, or whatever, one must approach this situation subjectively. First and foremost, Rockstar, what were you thinking when you marketed this towards the Wii? Now I know, visions of dollar signs danced in your head, but seriously, other than that, what WERE you thinking? Did you not see the trouble a' brewin'? If for one second you (Rockstar) thought this game was going to fly on the NINTENDO WII, I sincerely question every (any) ounce of intelligence you have.

Yes, Nintendo, the company that has brought us just about every single kid-adored video game character that has ever smashed bricks, or walked through Hyrule. This was just simply asinine. This isn't about the AO rating. This isn't about free speech. This is about common sense. I don't care what Nintendo said about wanting to bring M-rated games to their console. Resident Evil and Manhunt are a far cry from each other. Let me tell you what the kiss of death was for this game: bringing it to the Wii. Manhunt is an obscure title that should have been released for just the PS2, an outdated system. Rockstar, if you released Manhunt 2 on just the PS2, you would have avoided the AO. The ESRB could care less about the violence and content in this game. The Suffering (1 & 2) is full of horrible things, images, violence and it got an M, twice. No, Manhunt 2 got the AO because every single parent and their (young) child has a Wii and the ESRB couldn't over look that. You CAN NOT release a game like Manhunt onto a young-audience oriented console like the Wii. If Rockstar targeted this game at every single console but the Wii, it would have gotten an M-rating.

Rockstar should have taken their lumps financially, released it just on the PS2, made the Manhunt fans happy and let the game fall into obscurity just like the first one. Because now, no one is going to get this game for a while, if ever. Wii owners wouldn't appreciate this game anyway. The hardcore gamers own 360 or the PS3 (or both), not the Wii. The Wii is for fluffy, shallow, stupid games like bowling, tennis and Red Steele.

Manhunt 2 was the only reason I went out and replaced my old PS2 with a new one. You want to know why my old one stopped working? I played the first Manhunt until the game stopped working and it burned out the laser eye of the PS2. The system this game should belong soley to.

THis is crap, It is sony or microsoft or nintendos choice to allow a rated games but that is just unfair to the makers because they spend a lot of time making these games which just get blocked and un used. Some people like these type of games like me. I like the sopranos game, grand theft Auto and call of duty 4 and I am sure that some people also like these games, so I think it is ludicrous to ban these games because 46% of child gamers play these games under their parents agreement and a lot of 17-18b year olds like these games, so that also ruins a lot of buisness. For example, look at Grand theft Auto 4. Its got 20 million hits already, its crazy, look at the money people could be making from these games. Thank you for reading my comments.