July 8, 2007
Could your surge protector be causing your Xbox 360 to go red rings?Doesn't make sense to GP, either. But as Mark Methenitis points out at Law of the Game:
My Xbox 360 died. And so, I called 1-800-4-MY-XBOX today... While I was on the phone, the rep... informed me that my surge protector had probably caused both of my 360 deaths...
The explanation... The Xbox 360 is highly sensitive to reductions in power, and even the slightest cut in power can cause things like the fans and even the DVD laser to malfunction. Surge protectors can cause this, and probably 90% of the consoles they see have all failed in 6-12 months of being plugged into a surge protector.
Well, my two systems did die in that window, and they were both plugged into a surge protector. But does this explanation even make sense? ...Or is this just another misdirection?
GP: An MS rep told me the same thing when my 360 died a month or so back (still hasn't returned yet, BTW). But frankly, even if this is true - maybe especially if it is true - it's a disgrace. How many people don't use surge protectors these days? In my office, I have one outlet with two sockets and several powers strips feeding four consoles, a PC, printer, fax, two routers, TV, Tivo, set-top box, iPod speakers, an HDTV, a cell phone charger, two cordless phones, PC speakers and a lamp.
So which device failed? The Xbox 360. If MS didn't design the 360 to be able to deal with a ubiquitous item like a surge protector, shame on 'em. And I can't afford to devote one entire socket to a single console with poorly-designed electronics.
Comments
Free extended warranty doesn't really mean too much if people are concerned for their system on a longer scale than 3 years.
At least PS2's DRE problem was easily fixed by turning a little white gear. Sometimes people want a system that lasts longer than 3 years but what If you have a 360, and after the warranty expires it craps out on you? You can't exactly fix the red ring problem with the 360 by simply turning a gear. sometimes you can wrap it in a towel and force it to overheat... but its only a matter of time before that will stop working and sometimes even that doesn't work. Microsoft needs to do a recall so people won't be buying a product they KNOW is going to mess up eventually. Its upsetting that they haven't already so more than likely a large portion of the systems you'll find at best buy, walmart, gamestop ect. Will have the same problem. So if you want a solid 360 I'd wait until they've annouced that the problem with the design is fixed and THEN wait a couple months until the old 360's are sold off. Or you can hope for a recall and then wait for the newly designed 360's to be available. Either way I don't think it is safe to buy a 360 right now if you want a quality machine.
You lose any credibility that you might have otherwise had with this emotional outburst.
"but it’s not necessarily Microsofts fault. They may have just gotten sub-spec parts."
False. When putting together consumer electronics, the producers (MS, in this case) put together a design schematic that details exact parts specifications. Not, "a power supply," or even, "a power supply that provides 400 watts," but a specific power supply by a specific manufacturer. They knew exactly what they were getting. If they didn't know it was substandard quality (a laughable suggestion), then it is stillvery much their fault for not getting as much information as possible from their supplier. But it's much more likely that they knew exactly what the power supplies were capable of, and decided that they were within acceptible failure tolerances for the price being paid for them.
Second, power drops are a larger problem for power supplies to handle because higher current loads are required to provide constant wattage demands. It's called Ohms law retards. Granted, the 360's supply should be able to handle this problem, but it's not necessarily Microsofts fault. They may have just gotten sub-spec parts.
It's still going strong.
So basically, I have to conclude that MS is using electronic technology that isn't even up to 1985 quality standards. Not surprising.
As suggested eariler, the best solution is a line conditioner.
Says they don't cover damage from power surges... hmmmmm...
Classic Company PR moves when they are trying to dodge the real issue.
Real Problem: Shoddy component design in an effort to reduce the form factor (because everyone complained that the original XBOX was too damn big). Internals get too hot, warp the mobo, break the connections, red rings of death.
The 360 fails due to improper air flow from the graphics chip. It heats up the motherboard, softening and eventually breaking the connections on the board. That's what the new heat sink they're adding to the system is trying to fix, and that's why the "towel trick" works (it overheats the system, expanding the metal so that it meets up again).
Microsoft, just stop. Just stop telling lies and fix your goddamned hardware. I want to buy a 360 in October, but I won't buy one until this is fixed.
Surge protectors generally provide a more consistant flow of current than the outlet itself.
Meh, I was just tossing out the only possible connection between surge protectors and overheating that I could think of. Personally I'm surprised that supposedly current changes can damage the 360's fans at all. Fan motors are usually a bit more sturdy than that.
anyway MS, how the hell am i suppost to play when my tv was not built with av input?
This is what i think was said in all meetings at microsoft about the 360, but who knows. What it comes down to is: The box breaks to easy.. find the fault and fix it! Atleast stop selling the current fubar version until its modded/fixed to work outside the MS labs...
67Mod
Or when you said ''At this rate I’m willing to believe that MS is going to start losing more money on the defective system than they will make on it.'' did you mean that including the profit off game sales/x-box live subscriptions they will still be losing money?
1)They have truly located the problem of the Red Rings and
2) that they can fix it, or have fixed it.
A recent news story said that the defects are costing MS $1billion dollars. Not saying that alot of that isn't overhead and R&D to try and fix the defect, but that kind of dough comes to 2,500,000 360's that they have taken a loss on, AND that number doesn't figure in the compensation checks that MS is having to write out OR the other defective units that are still out on the shelves and in the marketplace as we speak.
At this rate i'm willing to believe that MS is going to start losing more money on the defective system than they will make on it.
Modern computer power supplies shut down when the fan dies. I would be shocked if the 360 PS kept working with a dead fan.
That said, I suppose fan failure could be the problem in regards to faulty power supplies, but I don't think it's causing warped motherboards.
The analysis I read suggested that accumulation of dust on the heat sinks and other internal components was a common cause of the massive over-heating. It seems that the quirky design of the 360 traps dust inside the machine and makes it almost impossible to clean. And even if an owner had the special tools needed to open and properly clean a 360, simply taking off the lid would violate their warranty.
When one considers that dust accumulation is definitely a problem that gets worse over time, I found this theory to be very convincing. It certainly explains why many systems only suffer heat related failures after many months of use.
If this is the reason, it would seem logical that the longer a given system was turned on, the more dust would be sucked in by the fan, and would raise the likelihood that the system would suffer a heat related failure.
It could be that Microsoft fully expects ALL heavily used 360s to fail within 3 years of purchase. I don't know what proportion of consoles are "heavily used". But if Microsoft's statistical analysis determined that only 40% of 360's fell into the "heavily used" category, it would seem to fit well with Micrsoft's Billion dollar warranty allocation.
This would put MS in a bit of a pickle. They want to sell lots of games as they make money off each game sold. But for every GTA4 or Halo type game released, more of the seldom used systems would be turned on, potentially costing Microsoft millions more in warranty costs. Quite a catch 22.
The only thing I can think of is that according to the article, one of the things that undercurrent supposedly damages is the fans. So if the coolings fans pack in, you'd be looking at an overheat in short order.
Either way it's pretty sad that the 360's PSU can't keep normal current variations from damaging the hardware.
I'm pretty sure it's impossible to physically damage hardware by lowering its power supply. The only part of the rep's statement which is true is that power drops can cause malfunctions-- but these would be temporary, maybe causing your game to crash or a read error at the worst.
I would have investigated this myself to see exactly why my 360 died, but that would void the warranty. I take very good care of my electronics. I'm talking ventilation, dusting, not near electrostatic charged items and anything you could do to protect a piece of electronics. Yet my first one failed. I've never had a piece of electronics fail due to anything but manufacturer's fault or ware & tear aka. old age.
If you get a line like this, definitely challenge the person on the phone. If they can't give you proof, they have no reason to tell you. No piece of consumer electronics is so power sensitive that it would cause corruption due to a slight flux in the voltage or amps. If this were true, they'd put a clause in the warranty or on the instructions. If it were also true, they wouldn't sell it because a company would have to be stupid to sell something like that. It's nearly impossible for a consumer to get a device to use a constant, non-fluctuating power source.
I'm not an electrical engineer, but I don't see how a loss of current could cause this level of over heating. Not that I don't think there is a power supply issue, I do. And I think Microsoft themselves have provided the explanation.
When we look back to Microsoft's recent statement regarding the red ring issues, Microsoft specifically admits that MULTIPLE design issues are to blame.
So if red ring = overheating, but red ring also = blown power supply, it suggests that red ring isn't associated with any specific failure cause, it's only associated with the end result. This end result is a hardware failure so massive that the built in diagnostics can't determine the cause.
My guess, red ring only means that the system has suffered a truly massive hardware failure. Red ring doesn't relate to any specific cause of that failure. High heat can cause a massive system failure, as can a blown power supply. Perhaps there are other causes of red rings, time will tell.
What seems clear is that the current design of Xbox 360 suffers from multiple, terminal design defects.
even at a 50% fail rate 50% will still work,so the design of the system is just flawed enough to not work right half or so of the time.
The problem seems to be exactly what everyone says it is; The X-Box 360 power supply can not deal with current drop, period. It's like dealing with Packard Bell all over again. As some people have already pointed out, a good PSU will absorb the current drop rather than pass it on (honestly, a few capacitors should do the trick unless it's a prolonged drop, then it could be a bit more complex... but I'm an electrician not an electronics designer). This is why 9 times out of 10 if your computer won't turn on, your PSU is bricked, not your motherboard.
This is also why people who claim to have had the things plugged into a UPS device don't see this problem, as most quality UPS devices will quietly keep the current level even with only a very slight (microsecond) variance. This is in addition to any power conditioning qualities they may provide.
Microsoft has botched the power supply and protection aspect of the X-Box 360. It fails to protect the device even half as well as my computer's $75 UPS device. What's their next line of BS, ask an electrician to come over and get RMS readings on all your breakers and line power? Require all owners to buy a power conditioning UPS to protect their device? Ask them to have the power company run a separate line and meter just for their X-Box 360 (btw not feasible at all, as most utilities don't run anything smaller than a 100a service... way overkill)? The only thing that makes sense is the power conditioning UPS, but that is a pipe dream for most gamers who can barely afford the system in the first place, never mind all this aggravation.
While I'm thinking of it, what kind of permanent damage could possibly happen due to a sudden drop in power? If anything like that were to occur with any other product I can think of, a reset would resolve the problem.
It could be both. The 360's PSU could be sub standard and they're trying to direct the blame onto something other than a 360 component.
Either way the surge protector thing is utter crap. I find it unlikely that a surge protector would generate significantly more power drops in the line than you'd get from just the power outlet on the wall.
Not to mention that "and probably 90% of the consoles they see have all failed in 6-12 months of being plugged into a surge protector." is utterly meaningless, it's a red herring. Afterall, most people aren't going to have their TV and game console being the sole things plugged in at a spot. They're going to plug their shiny new console into the power strip for their entertainment center with their TV, Tivo, other consoles, and their sound system. And they're going to being using a surge protector for all that as it's simply common sense to do what you can to protect your expensive electronics from sources of damage.
So either the Xbox360 is using a substandard psu or they are lying to put the blame elsewhere.
I think the latter is more likely.
I have yet to meet a person who does not use a surge protector for their electronics and if Microsoft thinks that every person who owns their console has twenty outlets directly in their wall, they are crazy.
Surge protectors are designed to protect electronics from surges of electricity. This prevents the electronic components from frying. But I guess they felt that the risk of a surge was not great enough to warrant a design that worked well with a surge protector.
Shame, shame on Microsoft.
It wouldn't surprise me if surge protectors did the same, but it is a shame on MS for not making them compatible and another result of their "rushing" the system into retailers.
Maybe i'm not interested because i don't own a 360, but i fail to see the politics behind this one...aside from M$ eventually covering their own hindquarters and tossing a 3-year warranty at customers to save face...