July 10, 2007
We'll say one thing for new Take Two Chairman Strauss Zelnick - he's a fighter.As everyone who hasn't been in a coma for the last month knows, the ESRB recently eviscerated Manhunt 2's retail viability by tagging the bloody Rockstar game with the dreaded AO (adults only) rating. Major retailers won't carry AO games and console manufacturers won't license them to run on their hardware.
It's the kiss of death and from here it looks like a cautionary tale to the rest of the video game industry: There's a line; don't cross it.
It could also be just a hint of game industry payback to Take Two for l'affaire Hot Coffee, which put the business behind the eight-ball and continues to reverberate politically.
For his part, Zelnick spoke out in a conference call yesterday on the eve of E3, saying:
One has to ask oneself what's the purpose of a rating if it in fact means that a title cannot be released? ...Because this is a voluntary ratings system in the US, we have to be critical of ourselves if we've allowed a system to develop that prevents us from bringing a title to market that we want to bring to market. That's something that we have to address
As reported by Next Generation, Zelnick isn't giving up, despite the AO:
We’re determined to bring Manhunt 2 to the consumers for which it was intended, and to do so in a responsible fashion. We don’t see ourselves in the AO business. But if we find ourselves in the AO business, it would be because we have a title that we consider art and entertainment, that we consider is appropriately rated at AO, that we’d like to bring to market, and that I and Ben [Feder, CEO] are prepared to stand behind.
Still unclear is exactly how T2 will get Manhunt 2 to market. Options would seem to include - in no particular order - editing the game to qualify for an M rating, working through the ESRB's appeal process, suing the ESRB, or releasing on PC only, perhaps with digital distribution.
GP: It's a shame that Zelnick & Co. are the ones absorbing the Manhunt 2 slap. Bumbling (at best) former CEO Paul Eibeler should be shouldering the blame, since Manhunt 2 was green-lighted on his watch. Instead, Eibeler was last spotted floating down over Manhattan on the cords of a $2.5 million golden parachute.
That being said, GP agrees with the ESRB's decision to assign the AO. Your results may vary.
Comments
Perhaps Sega should re-enter the market. Atleast they didn't censor their consoles content, unlike Nintendo and now Sony and Microsoft (See: Mortal Kombat). Especially the latter two of the three whom are choosing to play the moral card. Then perhaps I could walk out or atleast directly order a game. Then again, I do remember days prior to the ESRB which had a strange rating system, and of course when there was none.
I meant I'll be giving up video gaming if Rockstar appeals the rating, and wins. I'm okay with Manhunt 2 being rated AO, or if they tone it down to an M. They should just accept the rating as is.
The point is it doesn't require the controller. it gives the option. As for the developement, what is it easier to develope for, the same machine your doing the developing on, or some other closed system.
Calling us cowards? hmm any time you buy any game that has been rated by the ESRB you are supporting the ESRB, also it's not the ESRB's fault, it would be the console manufacturers that are restricting the content. If you bought a console you supported censorship, becuase they are the ones restricting what is allowed, not the ESRB. The only open gamings system is the PC now, and you can put AO games on that. lets do the math
We have three parts. Games, Ratings, and Platform. To see which one is restricting the content we will look at each one in the order they would go to become published.
1st, games are made
2nd the content is rated by the ESRB
3rd it is released or not released on the gaming platforms.
In the first step content is created
The second step is when that content is given a rating based on the content.
the third step is where it gets tricky, you want to release a game on a platform. The console makers restrict what content they allow in their system. The PC allows you to put whatever you want on it. I think we found the bad part.
In conclusion, Console makers and their policies have censored games on their own system while PC's have not.
Fuck the ECA, you guys are using us.
gee they can put in 20 more hours of dev time and code it to support USB analong stick game pads that are a dime a freaking dozen.
the only real diffrance in PC and console deving is PC deving needs more bug work and a wider testing array to get it to work on the main 6-12 or so configurations of the time.
If the original Manhunt got an M rating, and this second title is comparable in terms of content, then I'm willing to side with Zelnick on this one. (It doesn't hurt his case that I'm wildly biased and already disliked the effective ban on the product.)
Which requires an additional peripheral to be purchased to play it.
"Controls on a console are not better, how many options are there for a computer?"
Lots. But the WASD configuration is horrible for racing games, and driving with a mouse isn't as fun. You can use a 360 controller, or a Sixaxis if you hack it, but that's still requiring additional peripherals that don't normally come on a PC system. And if you're going to make the game to require a controller, you may as well do it on an X-Box or PS3.
It's also cheaper to develop for those systems, since you don't have to worry about it being compatable with all the various hardware configurations like you do with a PC.
No matter how you slice it, GTA4 just makes more sense going to consoles first.
True, the AO version would most likely be PC only.
Still, it satisfies the console requirements and the desires of the population who would prefer the UnCut version.
Of course, it would make console players who want an UnCut version rather unhappy. But you can’t satisfy everyone.
But if they do a “watered down” version, make sure they don’t just “cover up” the parts they don’t want played (as appeared to have happened in the “Hot Coffee” fiasco).
Nightwng2000
NW2K software "
Actually, this kind of thing has been done before in Japan. There's this PC bishoujo game called AIR and has an anime [AIR TV] out based on it. The PC version, while focusing a lot more on story than the sexytime content usually seen in it, had at least some. So when they ported it to the PS2, they just took out those scenes. Oh, and I'm encouraging you to watch it because I like using pro-anime-viewing propaganda, oy. NiHaha.
Personally, I prefer more 'building' type games like City-Life or Pharaoh, which, whilst do-able on a console, are probably quite difficult to play. It's like trying to design a Quake map on a Console, it might be possible, but I wouldn't want to do it. PC's add flexibility, and for my part, at least, I prefer games that use that flexibility, not that I'm not partial to the odd game of Burnout 2 just for the crashes ;)
In summary, it's kind of hard to say, the PC Gaming market is alive and healthy, but it seems to want to head in a different, more 'cereberal' type of direction than most console games. Another good example is Fable, which was way too short in it's original version for most PC gamers, to the point that Lionhead released a larger version for PC. Once again, making use of the PC's larger memory and storage abilities. I'm seeing more and more of the action games existing as console ports, with simulators, RPG's and RTS games originating in PC format and moving to console.
Controls on a console are not better, how many options are there for a computer? hundreds. for a console? not so many, and the same configuration has to be used as the other controls on the system. Playstation and xbox controllers can be used on a computer too. So the control advantage definately goes to the computer.
The thing about the PC comparison is that when people are saying, "Take Two should just make GTA4 a PC-only game to punish the consoles," they don't account for the fact that this would be shooting themselves in the foot. That's my main point. It'd be suicide for them to take their most marketable brand and put it exclusively on the least desirable platform to play it on.
Though Sims is a bad comparison. That game had a wide cross-gender appeal, and could run on a range of computer systems. GTA caters mainly to males, and the preview footage looks like it won't be skimping on the CPU requirements.
And to REQUIRE ID CHECKS at ALL RETAIL STORES before such material can be purchased…. ALONG WITH ALL 17+ MATERIAL, PER THE STANDARDS SET ALREADY BY THE MOTION PICTURE INDUSTRY.
You haven't been paying attention have you? There isn't any requirement to check ID for movie sales at retail stores. Try and buy an M rated game, and the cashier will usually get a nice prompt to check the buyer's age. Buy an R, NC-17, or unrated movie, and they'll get absolutely nothing.
The game industry's already surpassed the so called standards set by the movie industry.
That is exactly my point. The ECA has done nothing to address this issue, an issue directly affecting adult consumers and the industry in general. This should have been addressed way before this whole manhunt 2 thing.
The ECA is supposed to be representing and advocating for gamers, adult gamers, but they are not. To my knowledge they never have.
Maybe hal's and his gang at the ECA still have to many ties to the retail sector, it was after all under this same group, then called the IEMA, that the major retailers got together to not stock AO games...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEMA
So what is it? They don't want to put pressure on the console manufacturers to do the right thing, because it might shift the focus to the major retailers? They just don't want to rock the boat for their ol' buddies over at walmart? What's the deal Hal?
Rocking the boat is something consumer advocacy groups are supposed to do.
'...established to serve the needs of those who play computer and video games.'
There are a bunch of us here on this site, did you want to tell us.. anything.. or are you just hoping this goes away and hope developers will toe the line with the needs of the retail/manufacturer sector from now on?
Not even so much as a statement...
If you look at something like the Sims 2 three years ago though, and you'll see that it sold over a million units in the first Ten days of release. You'll probably see similar values for Spore
It is absolutely wrong to give a violent video game an adult rating in a society where extreme violence in movies is given a 17+ rating.
Adults only implies one thing: PORN. Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft have absolutely no problem with extremely violent, gory content on their systems. Their problem is with PORN. Manhunt 2 has fallen into a TECHNICALITY PROBLEM.
Let's take a look at the M rating. It recommends that the content not be viewed by anyone under the age of 17, which is just shy of the legal age of 18. The difference here is not much, and at the age of 18 you can join the army and murder people. For a living.
What should be done to satisfy both the consumers and the politicians is to institute an M 18+ VIOLENT CONTENT label. And to REQUIRE ID CHECKS at ALL RETAIL STORES before such material can be purchased.... ALONG WITH ALL 17+ MATERIAL, PER THE STANDARDS SET ALREADY BY THE MOTION PICTURE INDUSTRY.
The ESRB should be informed that a universal AO rating does not work and that it should insitute a specific 18+ mature label. I have my doubts as to whether this would help Manhunt 2 reach store shelves in this post Jack Thompson world, but it would allow a chance for fairness to proceed.
The ESRB should be sued by the video game industry as a whole if they don't comply. We all know what adults only usually implies, and that this was the exact thought involved with these console manufacturer's decisions not to allow AO content.
This would then leave the responsibility to the PARENTS and not the CONTENT MAKERS, as it should be.
-Lit_Reflex
Secondly, over here in the UK our high game rating (the kind given to games that are rated M in the US) is 18 which most of you are aware of. This is pretty much the exact same as your AO rating in that it's solely for 18's and over. Therefore Sony and Nintendo's line of not allowing 18+ rated games on their consoles is a lie - in the UK they do (not 100% sure there's ever been an 18 rated Nintendo game, but Sony do it all the time). So basically, they're consoles are okay for adults over here, but not in the US.
Piracy is an issue but there can be ways around it and people will still go out and buy it. You seem to forget piracy is an issue for consoles as well. Especially outside the US. So piracy is an issue no matter where you go. Fact is there will still be people willing to purchase it for PC even though its probably designed to play with a gamepad.... but who is to say they can't include a gamepad for you to play with? I mean if they are cutting out the middle man they will certainly make loads more profit off each game sale and striking a deal that will give people, I dunno maybe a gamepad that has the general feel of a ps2 gamepad might actually but affordable. I know you can find many cheap ones online, they come cheaper if you buy them in mass quantities.
Point is Take 2 wants to bring their artistic production to the PS2 and Wii gamers, but the ESRB, Sony and Nintendo do not seem to wish for this to happen seeing how the consoles companies prohibit AO games and the ESRB has a flawed system in place and pretends to be ignorant on the issue. PC gamers might be the only outlet left and personally I believe they can make it work for the best, especially if they give people an extra reason not to pirate the game. And giving people a reason can be any number of things, I'm not going to claim the only way is to give them a controller they can use to play the game as it was meant to be played.
They could always change the name of the rating for clarity like the MPAA did when they changed the X rating into NC-17.
http://www.mpaa.org/Ratings_history1.asp
Though amusingly enough, according the the MPAA's history, PG/PG-13 was originally named M for mature audiences. They then ran into problems with people thinking that was a hirer rating than R.
They should have never called AO AO. Adults Only sounds too much like porn. The AO should have been 18+ or some other category that doesnt sound as sleazy.
MMOS are on sony, and microsoft platforms, also all of xbox games are managed by servers, steam has a pretty good system to manage the authenticity of it's games. TT could do the same. So I guess i don't understand what you mean as far as MMO's being different as a platform. And more people would buy GTA IV for PC if it wasn't on a console. So comparing the sales figures wouldn't work. Think of it as a console cannibalizing PC sales, also think of them not having to pay any royalties to sony or MS, they could then up the price ten 15 bucks of profit that otherwise would have went to another company.
The ESRB was formed at a time when games like Mortal Kombat were first coming out, and people were crying for government control of video games.
The formation of the ESRB allowed the industry to self-regulate, and without it games like the original Manhunt would have never been made.
If the game deserves an AO rating, then they should be convincing the console makers to allow it to be published, because adults have a right to play what they like.
And if an AO rating means a game never makes it to market, then we're in the same situation as if the game industry was censored by the government.
I recall GP outlining his agreement in several other articles. In a nutshell: the original Manhunt was already pushing the limits of M, and the video footage of this game showed that it was going to be even worse.
I'll spin this back on you: how can you say this game should have been rated M if you've never even played it?
There's a huge difference between MMOs and every other platform out there. In MMOs, the game is run by the publisher on private servers, so it's easier to prevent piracy and protect your copyrights.
I'm trying to find the sales figures for a comparison, but I'd be shocked if sales of GTA3 for the PC came anywhere near its totals on the PS2.
What if Pixar made a movie for release by Disney that was supposed to be "G" rated, but got an "R" rating at final cut? They would be in violation of contract and Disney would be perfectly within their rights to tell them to Sod Off.
Don't put the hate on Nintendo or Sony. It is Rockstar that is entirely at fault here. They are a bunch of juvenile developers and they are seeking publicity from crappy sunts like this.
I would wager this is intentional and they have an entire "lower rating" plan in place (i.e. cut these two scenes, drop the gore effects in these 4 scenes, change this dialogue)
Midnight Cowboy, the game!
And, for the record, Gears of War for the PC already looks a lot nicer than the original ;)
The threat of making GTA4 into a computer-only game is a bad idea, since that's Take Two's biggest revenue generator. Take-Two would have to be fools to take their most profitable franchise and make it exclusive to the easily-pirated, rarely-played PC platform.
If they didn't fight this rediculousness then I would have lost a lot of respect for them.
How come pixelated drawings of nude characters that can only be accessed through 3rd party cracking hardware/software be considered a "slap" to the industry? Again, rediculous! Why should T2 take this crap now that they have an entirely new game?!?
The whole thing is just stupid.
While this could work I still think they should keep what they got and sell it for the PC as is. Also, while I still think Tarantino is a god among directors/writers/movie dudes, I always thought he pussed out a bit when he did that.
P.S. Didn't they do that for The Punisher game a few years back?
Im honestly disappointed me that Game politics supports the AO rating.
Why? It's functionally no different than movie's NC-17 rating. Both are essentially saying "This is not for people that aren't of age of legal majority." The problem is that console makers and retailers have turned this rating into a de facto ban rating.
This does not mean that we should do away with the rating, it means that the console makers and retailers need their asses kicked until some sense gets knocked into their heads.
What do you think the ECA is? What about the videogames voters network?
"the console makers need to give up on their anti AO stance,the market will keep such games at a minimum,their interference is just uneeded."
I agree, they most definitely need to drop this, its just bad policy and in counter intuitive to what they are trying to say with this.
If they simply let AO games on the systems, allowing the ESRB to do what they intended, the wacko's and nut-jobs could be reasonably be told to STFU every time they scream about these 'violent children's games'.
hey, here's a game for adults, STFU, its not for your 17 year old son.
I guess we would need some sort of consumer advocacy group that represents the interest of adult gamers and accurate ratings, to lobby the console makers...
the ESRB is doing a good job despite it not always looking like it.
the console makers need to give up on their anti AO stance,the market will keep such games at a minimum,their interference is just uneeded.
"Hey! This reminded me of one thing. Wasn’t Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit rated AO there in the US? Still, it came out on both PC and PS2 and fared reasonably well, so well there is a spiritual successor coming up for PS3 named Heavy Rain (it looks like crap just because it won’t come out on the PC, not that I care…)… "
Not quite. Fahrenheit was the title for the European version of this game that had a couple of mild sex scenes in it. The game likely would have been rated M but because it came out just after Hot Coffee, the ESRB rated it AO. Atari, the game's publisher asked Quantic Dream (the developer) to change the game slightly to make these sex scenes happen "off camera" and that subsequently M rated version because Indigo Prophecy. The same game, just IP didn't show people having sex (though it all still took place and you could hear it off screen.)
B) Community standards are changing. People are playing closer attention to videogame content. People like the NIMF have them scared so the community is going to be more cautious.
C) Despite the state of public view on games, Take2 opted to push the envelope of violent content even further.
In the end, I hearitly agree that the game (given current community standards and violent content) deserves the rating of AO.