Rockstar Appeals British Manhunt 2 Ban

August 2, 2007 -
Not everyone is interested in playing the universally banned Manhunt 2. 

But many adult gamers would appreciate the option to decide for themselves whether or not to give the controversial game a go.

It’s taken six weeks, but Rockstar has finally decided to appeal the British Board of Film Classification’s refusal to rate Manhunt 2, which effectively banned the game from sale in the UK.  British game industry news site MCV reports Rockstar has lodged an official plea with the Video Appeals Committee.

VAC chairman John Woods will organize a hearing on the appeal, which will include arguments from both Rockstar and the BBFC, as well as a demonstration of the game.  So far, no date has been set.

Nor is there word yet as to whether Rockstar will appeal the Adults Only (AO) rating assigned to Manhunt 2 by the ESRB, which affects the North American market. Because console manufacturers won't license AO games to play on their systems, the rating as it stands is a death knell for Manhunt 2. Given the news of the UK appeal, similar action seems likely in regard to the ESRB.

Via: Gamasutra

-Reporting from San Diego, GP Correspondent Andrew Eisen

Comments

There is a difference though between Public Free Speech and Censorship.

I understand that Free Speech on a Confrontational Public level will offend people, and thus precautions must be taken. People should never be directly harassed by someone then protected under law.

However.

Those who wish to exercise their opinions should be allowed to do so via their own limited medium. Websites, Newspapers, Group Meetings ... These are places where they should be protected by law to exercise their beliefs, no matter how heinous they may seem to you.

This carries over to protect people who wish to publish things ... Books, Movies, Music, Games, etc. There should be no-one who can say "No. You can not publish that".

Those decisions should lie with the Publishers themsevels, the Retailers who stock the product and the customer who has the biggest saying power of all.

@JamesR:

Do some research on Westboro Baptists. Those guys were picketting funerals whilst enjoying full protection under the law to do so. The fact that special laws were brought in to prevent them doing so is a perfect illustration of why total free speech is not workable, and why your final sentence was so clearly simplistic. Total free speech could only work in a world where there were no people willing to act like total assholes. Until that wonderous day arrives, we will need (and there will be) checks and balances.

[...] Rockstar and Take-Two are appealing to BBFC to get the game rated in the U.K. GamePolitics.com

That's the thing ZippyDSMlee, we have to 18 rating because we don't have the 'Mature' rating, however, we have a 15 rating whilst America has that rather odd gap of 4-5 years, so games that are rated 'up' for Mature in the US can be rated 15 in the UK, but the 'heavy' end of the 'Mature' rating also ends up as 18 cetificate in order to be on the safe side. Manhunt is the other side of the 18 certificate, possibly the first game to 'properly' go to that level, it's a test of both the Industry AND the BBFC, and I suspect the outcome will have a lot to say about whether games continue to be viewed as 'kids toys'.

The ESRB needs to take the lead and not be in the pockets of polis console makers or consumers they need to do the ebst they can to not block media to adults but rate them to keep them out of the hands of kids,its simple the ESRB needs to put its foot down.


1.Either the make a agreement to not rate games based on sex for 5 years if the industry will accept AO as a working NC17 level for games and console makers agree not to interfere with the approval process.(retail can still snub it as they see fit)

2.Create a M18 level and warn console makers that if they interfere with it they will lose their membership in the ESRB,with M18 in place content with extra violence can go here,they can even black box the M18 games (have them wraped in black plastic with the name and M18 on the front for 2 years) ,retail can of coarse snub it but with the temporary "black box" approach they should embrace it more than AO.

What are the chances that they will overturn the BBFC ruling and force them to create a real 18+ rating for games?

I think they could use this for MH2
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/classification/c_18.php

it is pretty much a NC17 and they still have 18_R for sex ZOMG win?

maybe not heres the list of "18" level games

http://www.360-gamer.com/agerating.asp?id=17

oh well maybe not...

24 = 34, I wish it was still 24.....

It should be noted that, even if it does get re-rated (or, in fact, rated) most main distributors will refuse to stock it, there will be pressure from Vaz etc, chances are R*, even should they win this appeal, will have a pretty hard time getting places like Dixons and other 'family fuhrer, sorry friendly' type shops being willing to stock it. Oddly enough, I DID see Canem Canis Edit in WHSmiths, hence why I buy all my games from there now instead of Dixons Group, I prefer companies that assume that a 24 year-old male is capable of making their own decisions on what to watch and play.

E. Zachary Knight,

NTSC


Andrew Eisen

@ Father Time

You would not be able to play it in the US. The UK is a PAL region. The US is something else (I can't remember the acronym)

@father Time

i could be mistaken as i'm no expert, but i believe a European copy would only work if played in HD, this is due to the PAL standard that Europe uses that a slightly higher resolution then the standard def TVs register

(joystick has this in regards to part of the issue http://www.joystiq.com/2007/05/07/ps3-is-region-free-but-theres-a-hi-def...)

It's weird how more Americans seem to be worked up over the BFCC's refusal to classify than the British are. I've known quite a few Brits who really trust their system to be working properly, and have been confused by the American cries of censorship.

Cultural differences, I suppose.

should U.K get the uncensored version how much would it costs to get it imported from there, or would it not work on a game system built for the U.S.?

The difference Kentonio between your analogy and the reality is that playing Manhunt 2 will affect nobody but the person who choses to play it.

Someone Picketing a Veteran Funeral and hurling abuse IS being anti-social, and is thus breaking the law.

However, an Organisation trying to promote the Legalisation of paedophilia has every right to do so in my opinion.

Would you not want the reverse right to picket their Meetings? Even though it could be construed as anti-social?

As for the publishing of a Video game simulating 9/11 ... I think you said it best with:

"I want my industry to be responsible enough to say ‘We’re not publishing this shit’. "

The Industry should have the choice whether or not to publish something, Retailers should have the choice whether or not to stock something. No-one should unilaterally make that decision for them and in turn us.

Btw ... Hands up people who have downloaded JFK Reloaded. *Raises Hand*

Ultimately I have very little interest in playing Manhunt 2 ... the First was a Shambles, I just believe that it should be every adults choice what they expose themselves to.

Censorship is never a good thing. Ever.

I think it's really worth noting that in the UK there is no right to free speech. If the BBFC refuses to rate somthing then there we go, it becomes effectively silcenced. I think that video games are still brushed as somthing that children play which is a stigmata that needs to be overcome. After the whole Manhunt 1 incident the name manhunt its self became tainted with the thought of children killing each over to copycat the actions. The simple truth is that the BBFC is acting like Big Brother and choosing what adults may and may not see. Then again this is the same BBFC that allowed Saw 3 and Hostel through so come to think of it they must of seen somthing that was so bad that it could not be classified.

GoodRobotUs
Ya I noticed that the 2 levels for mature and yet its not really used I hope they can show that 18 is enough for almost any game if not its down right stupid it is not......

E. Zachary Knight/Broken Scope

If you "join" the ESRB you are a "member" because you have "rules" to follow in order for them to rate your games.

In the end it is that "simple", however doing something about the AO fiasco is far from simple,all I can do is use my half wit thoughts to start a new line of conversation over how to fix things.

@JamesR:

There are no 'rules' on freedom. We live in a time where we enjoy more freedom than arguably at any other time in human history. The petty 'freedoms' that people argue about now are nothing compared to the kind of restrictions that people lived under just decades ago. Before everyone stands up and screams about how there should never be any censorship or restrictions on speech, think about what that actually means. Think about the Westboro Baptists picketting veterans funerals, think about NAMBLA holding meetings in your neighbourhood, think about a future where computer games could be released where your character has to fly a plane into the world trade centre, and you get points for how good your aim is. No restrictions means that anything goes. You ready for that?

@Orangekrush:

Nope, thats the difference between the US and the UK. Personally if someone wants to stand outside a funeral waving a banner saying that the dead soldier deserved to die, then I want those people locked up for public disorder offences. If a group of sickos want to try and hold a rally supporting paedophila, then i'd like them to be arrested for encouraging an illegal activity. If I see someone make a game where you fly a plane into the world trade, then I want my industry to be responsible enough to say 'We're not publishing this shit'.

Its not about turning back time, its about enjoying the freedoms we do enjoy and not trying to push further and rip away every last measure of control and restraint. Sometimes those restraints are there for a reason.

It really struck me in the threads about MH2 how many people cared more about having a chance to play a sensationalist game and didnt give a damn about the potential damage such a game could do to the industry they constantly claim to love and want to protect. In a year where the anti-game lobby has grown ever more vocal, with prominant politicians and media figures speaking out against gaming, do you really think this is the time to start trying to shock?

@Kentonio

Do you want to go back to the 'great' times of 50 years ago? 100 years? How about an absolute monarchist regime? Why not make everyone serfs again? You can't be championing that.

Hey - if I use your analogy in reverse: Are you ready for full government authorization and regulation of everything? Of course not.

Yes there will be extremes and yes there will be those who push the envelope. But that is what living in a free society is. If Nambla has a rally, I can exercise my freedoms and not attend it. If baptists have no shame and picket funerals, well, that is their right. And if there is some game where I fly a plane into a building, I would like to be treated like an adult and given the choice to buy it or not.

I can only assume you would too.

@ Phantom

I'm British, and I still think it's a travisty. I hated the BBFC before now for bits they've cut out of movies, but this just takes it to a whole new extreme.

Yes Zippy, Brokenscope is right.

The worst they could do is refuse to rate any games for that system, but that would be very bad for them, and even worse for the developer. I don't think that they would want to be responsible for a developer revolt.

Zippy.... No one is an ESRB member. They are a seperate org that rates games on a contractual basis.

GAH! Preview button please WordPress!

They have an 18+ category right? If Saw and Hostel get 18+, why not let the same adult consumers make their decision regarding Manhunt 2.

For the record I'm not interested in the above titles.

I'm rooting for Rockstar in this, they deserve to win. As far as I'm concerned, the BBFC has tried to make an example of them in responce to the controversy generated by the original manhunt, to try and make themselves look like the good guys. They've received a good deal of critism over their ratings in the last few years, what with Saw and Hostel movies being allowed an uncensored release, the 12 rating they gave to war of the worlds (which many complained was 'too soft') and the unbanning of several video nasties.

They could also be accused of bowing to political pressure, seeing as releasing Manhunt 2 would have gotten newspapers and politicians up in arms. The sad fact is, if R* wins, the game will get even more attention because of it.

It could go either way to be honest. At first I thought the BBFC may be right, but the more I see clips from films like Saw 3, the more convinced I am that it was more about knee-jerking than actual opinion, either they should have allowed Manhunt or banned Saw 3, Hostel etc, otherwise they are being hippocrits.

When I wrote to the BBFC about the rating, they vehemently denied that there was a gulf opening between the way Video Games are rated and how Films are, I guess we will have to wait and see.

Again, the correct answer should be "release a PC version on Steam", if you want to play it that badly. That way, there's no way kids can get it because they don't have a credit card, and the adults can get the game uncensored. Everyone wins, except for "you know who", because it's not a full ban.

@ Kentonio

The VAC has the power to overrule the BBFC rating and force them to assign a new rating. So if TT wins it will do more than you think.

I also believe that a rating system should not have the power to not rate a game that is submitted. Nor should they have the power to ban a game because of it.

The ESRB did the right thing and assigned the AO rating. It is now up to the console manufacturers and retailers to do the rest.

@Kentonio - Though stranger things have happened in the industry, I tend to agree.

I just wonder what they may argue: game content, flawed rating system, or my personal favorite, regulated control of what adults may consume.

". . .the supreme authority of the just state extends only to those matters which it is proper for a state to control."

@dan

Agreed Dan. But if they win, perhaps it will force the BBFC and The ESRB to rethink there policy. After all, wining this would open up all kinda liability for raiting systems

I cant imagine how they will win any appeal without having made some pretty drastic changes, the BBFC seemed pretty resolute about this.

It is rather pointless that we have a ratings system here which can't cater to a game of this sort. I'd have thought an 18 would be simple enough to assign... as has been previously stated, refusing classification simply highlights inherent flaws in the rating system.

Also, first!

Call me a raving liberal but it is my opinion that Adult Human Beings should have the right to decide what they expose themselves to - Without restriction.

Prohibition of any kind is a disgraceful infringement on the basic rules of Freedom.

That said, i'm on the fence about whether or not Rockstar will get a sucessful ruling out of this.

Ultimately, since the VAC does not have the right to judge the BBFC on the grounds of infringement of Freedom, they could take the matter to Parliament or even the European Supreme Court on the grounds that refusing to rate their product is essentially unlawful censorship and is not becoming of the "Free" West we live in.

[...] Rockstar challenges British Manhunt 2 ban [...]

@Kentonio,

I respect your opinion. Despite the fact I don't live in the US and I am not an American citizen, I believe in the rights of the individual over the state. Any encroachment, no matter how 'small' is too much as it tends to lessen the blow of larger encroachments later on.

You and I are on different sides of the free speech fence and that's ok. I have a fundamental problem with my government telling me what I can or cannot watch, play or read. I think you should too but if you don't, well, hopefully your country elects reasonable officials and rids itself of megalomaniac public servants.

@Finaleve:

The BBFC are the ones who give ratings, they looked at it, and simply decided it was not acceptable to receive a rating, thats what is meant by a ban, as a title has to be rated to be sold over here.

Usually they would give advice to the creators as to which scenes to remove/alter to make it ok, but in this case they said they couldnt envisage any reasonable changes making it ok, due to the overall tone of the product. Thats why many of us who are familiar with the BBFC tend to respect their decision. They are generally pretty reasonable people these days.

I would agree with T2 on this one. The game wasn't even rated and yet it was banned? Did they make sure the game was even worth banning? The ESRB had the idea of at least giving the rating and then having the industry decide whether to give it the green light or not.

Online distribution works though. However there are flaws in that as well, as kids can steal parents credit cards and buy it easily (or buy a visa gift card or something and pay like that)

@Raum:

Although Phantasmagoria had a rape scene didnt it? I suppose the context of such scenes is pretty much crucial, and if the rest of the game convinces the ratings board that you're just going for pointless over the top shock, then they are likely to balk at giving you the benefit of the doubt.

@ Kentonio

There won't be a rape scene in the game, Rockstar wouldn't dare. The rules are so tight on that issue, they would never get the game released under any circumstances. It's just not something they would want to risk.

@ Terminator44

Carmagedon only got through by changing blood and skin tone to green, in an attempt to convince us the people we were killing were zombies and not people

@orangekrush:

If their only argument is that the BBFC doesnt have the right not to classify, then they may as well pack up their bags and go home now.

The BBFC have a long established right to refuse classification, and have done so on numerous occasions. Their decisions get appealed against from time to time, but only on the grounds that the media should receive a rating, not on the process itself. The VAC have absolutely no power in my understanding to pass judgement on the actual responsibilities of the BBFC. They are nothing more than an appeals process that decides whether of not the BBFC were overly harsh in an individual judgement.

Seeing as how Rockstar has a much more articulate management than before, I am fairly certain that they will succeed. After all, the only other case where a game was banned by the BBFC was overturned on appeal as well. That game was Carmeggedon, and it wasn't exactly the Mona Lisa either. I don't think MH2 will have to prove itself to be high art to win this, because artistic merit is not a prequisite for free speech. If it is in the U.K., then something's wrong, because how do you define art?

No, I think their approach will be to attempt to convince the VAC that while their game isn't kid-friendly, it has nothing in it that means it MUST be banned. Unless there is something extreme like a rape scene, I am sure they could pull it off.

@Kentonio,

Read my entry - how they rate and what processes are not relevant. The effective 'ban' of a private citizen's right to distribute software by not rating it is an encrachment on the rights of all Britons.

That will be challenged by Take 2 and you should thank them for doing it.

Despite not wanting to play the game, I'm glad there is going to be an appeal. I disapprove of censorship at this level. Fair enough games getting rated for it's intended audiance, but I want to have the choice of either playing it or not playing it, rather than the game getting a ban (even if I don't want to play it).

Also, just incase it helps, please sign this http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Manhunt2/

This was reported by GP a while back, when the news of the ban was new.

So does this mean the US gets a censored version while the UK gets the uncut one?

@ Daniel

Possible, if the appeal to the BBFC is successful.

Then again, if Rockstar wins its appeal in Britain, it's also possible they could use that to appeal the AO rating here in the States.

The best we can hope for is a R* win that forces both the UK and the US to rethink their rating systems and realize that there's an inherent flaw when certain ratings don't "inform the public" as they are supposed to but instead make decisions for the public.

*plants vocal equivalent of c4 and waits for JACK THOMPSON, JACKASS*

*Crosses fingers that both come out uncut*

I have nothing to say other than "Im in ur thread, closing ur italics.".

-P
Forgot your password?
Username :
Password :

Poll

How do you feel about microtransactions in $60 video games?:

Shout box

You're not permitted to post shouts.
RedMageOh hey, a news station is trying to scapegoat gaming. That takes me back. https://twitter.com/GamingAnarchist/status/63754361236507443208/29/2015 - 1:40pm
Big PermA link to TB twitter with Matt Lees in the replies - https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/52528604482949939208/29/2015 - 12:16pm
Brad GlasgowWhy would he say the company lies about getting abuse? Oh, because people don't abuse GG?08/29/2015 - 10:38am
Big PermBrad - Matt Lees was also quick to say the company "Gamers Gate" lies about getting abusive messages thinking they were an official GG channel08/29/2015 - 9:11am
Goth_SkunkMGSV: The Phantom Integrity - A Rant by RazörFist. (NSFW on account of language). RazörFist discusses the latest batch of unethical journalist conduct, with a caveat. - http://ow.ly/RwXYT08/29/2015 - 7:10am
Goth_Skunk@Brad: I can.08/29/2015 - 6:13am
Goth_SkunkI assume "Stacy" is a pseudonym. After reading what she went through, I would not be one bit surprised if it is.08/29/2015 - 6:13am
Goth_SkunkA Year of #GamerGate: From Neutral To Anti To Neutral To Pro by "Stacy" - http://ow.ly/RwVeT08/29/2015 - 6:12am
Brad GlasgowI can't believe Matt Lees deleted his positive review of Ethan Carter because Chmielarz is sympathetic to GG.08/29/2015 - 5:30am
Goth_SkunkA GameDev's Year With #GG: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly by Adrian Chmielarz - http://ow.ly/RwSCd08/29/2015 - 5:18am
Goth_SkunkDespite not being a fan of fighting games I had to check out that R Mika trailer. Loved it. Still won't buy the game though, on account of Isuckatstreetfighteritis.08/29/2015 - 2:42am
MechaCrashI use a Dynex DX-840 headset, but it's discontinued. :( I wanted a mono headset so I could keep the other ear free for my speakers, but it has the bonus of being very light and comfortable, so you don't notice it.08/29/2015 - 12:41am
Big PermSora - I was just having a slow day at work earlier. Now I'm home with vidya!08/28/2015 - 7:54pm
ZippyDSMleeSora-Chan: Blender is easy compared to 3Dmax :P08/28/2015 - 6:51pm
Sora-Chantime to take up a hobby? maybe messing around in GIMP to make wallpapers? use qCAD to design somethin? open Blender and stare at it for a couple hours trying to figure what does what?08/28/2015 - 6:41pm
Big PermAlso, yes. I've been spamming the shoutbox. I don't have much going on today, don't judge me08/28/2015 - 3:25pm
Big PermThanks, but yeah. Not sure I wanna drop that kind of cash :P I don't even mind the sound quality of my krakens, it just hurts to wear em after a couple hours.08/28/2015 - 3:25pm
Sora-Chan@Big Perm: I'm a bit of a fan of the Omega Recon3D headset from SoundBlaster. Though it is a bit expensive.08/28/2015 - 2:36pm
Big PermI actually need to look into a new headset. I have those green razer krakens and I would not suggest them. Though maybe they're better for people without glasses08/28/2015 - 11:32am
Big PermI've never heard if Apple was dominant in Japan.08/28/2015 - 11:25am

Be Heard - Contact Your Politician