I agree with Terrible Tom.

Why would Rockstar spend the time and money creating two versions of the same game, especially running the risk that the first version they submitted would get a suitable "M" rating?

discussion here too

http://www.gamepoliticsforums.com/showthread.php?t=2909

funny how quickly R* got that edit done... almost as if it was really easy to do...

hmmmmm

Man I had a really good headlie too in my email to Dennis:

"Manhunt 2 is back with a capital M"

The whole timeframe stinks to high heaven. I can't wait to see the TT share prices, as well as the sales numbers of the game. Its gonna sell several times the number of copies than it probably deserves.

Perhaps they will release a AO rated or even Unrated version for PC.

To tell you the truth, and I'm pretty sure that this has been brought up elsewhere in the past, what I've always been curious about is exactly what got the game rated AO in the first place. After all, it's not as if I or anyone else got a chance to sit down and see for ourselves.

As such, NOW I'm curious as to exactly what got changed in order to move the rating slider back a notch. I wonder if there's a way I could find out some exact specifics on this. It's not as if playing the game on its own in its now-current state will provide answers, so my curiosity remains piqued on the issue...

Who to contact to find out, though...

[...] Me van a disculpar. No me gusta dar informaci

And who didn't see this coming?

I think R* deliberately made a more explicit cut, hoping to get an AO game. That way they could market an M rated version as "the Man didn't want you to get this game". I find the whole thing distasteful and won't support R* ever.

Yuka -

You could e-mail Rockstar and Take Two or perhaps hope that someone will interview them regarding this topic but I think the best way to find out would be to wait to see if they release an AO or Unrated PC version through online distribution. That way we could find out for ourselves.

@bayushin

I highly doubt your theory. Manhunt 1 pushed the envelope a lot and some complained it should've gotten an Ao rating, for manhunt 2 everyone expects Rockstar to push the envelope further and that's what they did, rockstar pushing too far doesn't seem that unlikely of a scenario.

Rockstar is awesome. They are willing to push the envelope and that is a good start. I don't think that they deliberately made it too explicit to get an AO rating. I honestly think that claim is laughable. I think this is a case of Rockstar growing a pair having the courage to put out a game that many would find unsuitable. Rockstar is awesome, I don't see any legitimate reason to put them down over this unless of course you are totally opposed to violent imagery and the horror genre.

I wouldn't be too hard on them Bayushisan, it's no different to the practice of most other industries, if that is what they did, it might not be in 'good taste', but it is also quite classic advertising technique, been used since Elvis' day, why pay for advertising yourself when you can get it for free from people who dislike you? There's a certain lawyer who depends almost entirely on being disliked for his dose of 'Internet Attention'.

I've come to the conclusion that Rockstar and the ESRB having been playing us in a tag team publicity stunt. It benefits them both. The ESRB can tell all the doubters, "SEE? We're not too light on games! We give them their ratings then they can make the edits if they wish" and it gives "Manhunt 2" a hell of a lot more publicity than expected. Not to mention it was awfully quick for them to edit it and have the ESRB rerate it to be appropriate for a general mature aidence

Add the Halloween release date and I firmly believe they've been yanking our chains all along

@ Tom

Not a bad idea on that second part- I imagine that since they got the go-ahead to put the game on consoles now, they'll probably be a bit more receptive to putting some form of the AO version on PC at a later date.

Still, if it turns out they'll answer my question, I'll see if that route works too. Maybe I'll get lucky.

And now for a chilling thought.

With all this free publicity Manhunt 2 will sell enough to warrant Manhunt 3 (which will undoubtedly be for the next gen consoles).

With modular game design, its' not actually totally unreasonable to create a game at one level and then whittle off the parts that are considered unacceptable, that's not really a problem. As for whether that was done deliberately or not, hard to say, R* probably originally submitted the 'whole' of Manhunt first time round, not with an eye to getting an AO, but aware of the possibility it could be so, and they've done a good job of turning it into advertising for themselves and the game.

@Trisket

"Why would Rockstar spend the time and money creating two versions of the same game, especially running the risk that the first version they submitted would get a suitable “M” rating?"

Easy, by making a small handful of easily editable scenes "gorier" than MH1, which was facing calls to be re-rated AO. They know the ESRB won't go easy on them, and will likely rate them more harshly than ever, so they just crank it up a notch in those few scenes (increase blood, more disgusting sounds, no blur, longer scene duration, bigger knife, slower, deeper slicing, no fade to black, stuff that's easy to do in header defines).

A quick discussion with the ESRB to discover that it was in fact those scenes that caused it, and they just go back and enter "gorelevel=4" instead of "5", and recompile & submit. Piece o' cake.

Jabrwock - "Then again, they might just have had two versions on the shelf, and just submitted the “gorier” one first to see if it would pass. Oops, AO, ok, submit the “toned down” one after we get to vent about AO ratings…"

This situation wouldn't be so bad. Id be totally ok with this because its raising awareness of the struggles game developers face with the AO rating. I'm sure many people learned more about how consoles don't allow AO rated titles.

It is completely normal for game developers to submit the same game numerous times. I'm not sure the legality of the ESRB commenting on how many times a game is submitted but I'm sure its the standard practice for games trying to meed the rating requirement. I guess its possible it was rated M before it was rated AO but I think they could have edited it down and released it while the media storm was at its peak. I think if they were looking for maximum sales it would have been best to get it rated M, push it to get it rated to AO and then after you get the media's attention just fall back on the M and release it while everyone is still running around like chickens with their heads chopped off. Its kind of settled down now and people aren't as uppity about it so I think if they were only looking to trick the people the time has already passed.

Yuka - It will probably take a little while. They want the M rated one to sell pretty well then they will drop the AO and perhaps if we are lucky an expanded unrated one on PC. Although for your research on why the game was rated AO you would probably rather have the original AO rated game for PC to be released.

@ Tom

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable approach to me as far as an unedited PC release goes. Exactly the one I'd make given the situation, really. Fair enough call- I'll see what happens with the PC version. Still, if I find a way to contact the right guys on the issue, I'll do just that in the meantime.

Jack Thompson's and the entire right wing's collective heads explode in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

Funny how some people find it easy to accuse the ESRB of conspiracy but bring up the idea that maybe R*, a company widely known and documented as being sleazy and underhanded, is completely unassailable in some people's eyes.

amazing o_0

I agree with the assessment of the #define gorelevel to find the rating level.
However if they did leave it in, it could potentially be hacked. Remember the hidden code for R* other game....
So if they did use some kind of gorelevel thing, they would have to delete the code for the higher gore stuff, or use some preprocessor commands and probably a custom compiler to ignore the higher gore code from compiling into the binaries.

@jer
but if the gore gets unrealistically high (e.g. 50 gallons of blood per person), wouldn't that call for a M-rating rather than an AO-rating?

Alright guys, lets start hunting for that hidden code with our GameSharks and ActionReplays, ala GTA: San Andreas.

In all seriousness though, if Rockstar did sneak something like that in there and made it unlockable by such methods, it would be a HUGE slap in the face to the ESRB.

Now, release the AO (uncut) version for the PC.

Personally, I have no problem with there being two difference versions. It isn't a unique idea to release two versions

It's a shame the AO version can't be done on consoles, but hey, that was the console makers' choice.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

@kincyr

then thats the ESRB to decide

Aside from the re-rating, tt is also very good for TT/R* from a profit-maximizing (sp?) standpoint.

The game may well sell more units in a late October date than in mid-summer. The absense of GTAIV clears the way for other, less blockbuster, games to sell well in Q4. GTA will sell well regardless of release date.

Woohooooo *does happy dance*

Hell yes......

a halloween date!!!!! and my birthday is in october...man i cant wait to be playing manhunt 2 while listening to some hsm 2 soundtrack and ashley tisdale cd....

Fun times

For all the "game politics" surrounding Manhunt 2, for the fact that this all may just be a "bait 'n' switch" by Rockstar to generate publicity, for all the garbage that the mainstream media and the ant-gamer crowd are going to pour over the game no matter what it's rated...

...I'm just happy to now be given the chance to play the game. Nothing more, nothing less. Sounds like the guys at Rockstar are pretty passionate about the game they've made, and I am a big fan of the "horror game" genre.

Here's a thought: Maybe the game wasn't edited at all. I seem to recall way back when hearing that Rockstar had appealed the rating. Maybe the appeal worked?

Granted, I have absolutely no idea how the process works, so I could be totally off base. I just think it's a possibility that's worth considering, what with so many people complaining about edits, censorship, etc.

GP, you may want to check your grammar here:

Manhunt 2, saddled with an Adults Only ESRB rating in June, announced today that an edited version has received an M (17+).

Orange Soda - Take two said it was a modified version in the press release.

"i spit on your grave was a horrible film from 1978, it’s essentially a rape/revenge story and is incredibly graphic i honestly wouldn’t wish for anybody to actually watch it"

More Graphic then The faces of death movies

This is great news. What a manager at PlayNTrade told me was that there was a brutal rape scene in the game that was the main cause of the AO rating. That was the news that I recently heard from that manager. Perhaps that might have been one of the things that they needed to take out of the game since it has to do with sex and the fact that the female that went through Daniel's mind got brutally raped and murdered. I hope that they left almost everything else in the game, including using all of the wii remote motions for the game.

This is a time of celebration.

Thank you Rockstar Games for being good to your fans.

Yay, I can't wait to emulate a stabbing motion with my wii-mote to kill some dude in a watered-down manhunt. Is the PC version at least allowed to keep its testicles?

I find it strange that 68 comments and 5 hours later, still no word from the JT crowd about how this is reason to believe that western civilization is crumbling.

I guess he is still having trouble sitting down after his court battle.

Orange Soda - Take two said it was a modified version in the press release.

Did it?

...

Ah, so it did. I had read it earlier, but I must have missed that detail.

@ E. Zachary Knight

It was Hounddog. But you're right about Manhunt 2, it was tailor-made for the kiddies.

I'm really glad they were able to get this fixed. Anyone want to take bets that Jackie still tries to blame everything in the world on it?

@Ben Ambroso:

Via Kotaku:

"JACKTHOMPSON AT 12:31 PM

Wow. Big mistake. Now watch what happens.

Jack Thompson, Attorney"

I expect he's furiously typing up press releases as we speak :)

Lmao its not a damn game for kids!!!!!

Dont worry though i wont go into any rants! God knows i already annoyed enough people back in the day with them


But beware a duffy rant may come soon

Wow Jack, thats gotta sting.

I wish I could have been there when Jack found out. He was probably touching himself, bragging to Mitt Romney on the phone...

"Yeah, so I singlehandedly made Manhunt 2 banned from all these places. Yeah, that's right. Nope, it won't be released in America because it's rated...MATURE!? What? WHAT!? Son of a bitch. Mitt, I have to go. Something horribly wrong has happened. I...I cant...SHIT! I love you, hun...keep dinner warm for me. Must...go...write...letters..."

It's because he only comments on the things he perceives as good. When we do he keeps silent.

Well he did respond to my questions (via email, no im not saying his addy) about his "all homsexuals/bisexuals are sinners" comment.

well that doesnt suprise me really...wish i had saved what he had said to me at one point when i asked something...

i think it was something about "get off the computer and go play with your barbies" or something of that nature...

but i guess thats more polite then "go buy a suicide game and get real good at it"

IanC, someone already pointed out about his comment at Kotaku.

So Manhunt 2 gets a release, does it? Interesting. So the game hits the shelves a few months late, is "not as bad as it used to be; we've cut X, Y, and Z" and everyone is falling over themselves to find out exactly what's missing and what has been left in.

It could just be cynicism, but I suspect more people have been played by Manhunt 2 than vice versa.

@ Zerodash
Hes emailed me a few times in the past. Random press releases and the like.

What are you talking about Messiah?

I'm here for the comedy! I love Mr Jt's standup routines!

@jt fanboi

Well you do more or less worship him, dont you?

But I'm of the belief that the *less* he posts here, the better.

Do you know what i saw when i read this comment?

"Manhunt 2, saddled with an Adults Only ESRB rating in June, announced today that an edited version has received an M (17+). The new rating will enable the game to be licensed on console systems and sold by major retailers."

This is what i saw:

"Michelangelo's David was censored today after a parent made a complaint about David's private parts being visable to young people"

Thats just one example of what our world is quickly turning into. Actually, i think that complaint was already made. I think they laughed at the person making the complaint.

A victory for gamers no doubt.

@Jt Fanboi

I concur. There are leke three articles that are liek cannon fodder ot him and he hasn't said a thing. Could he be *gasp* working? What a rare occurance if he is

Besides that, it's no different than one of the producers of any Friday the 13th movie having to cut a good bit of gore from the movie to get a R rating.

Difference is, though, most retailers won't stock unrated games like they do movies.

@Keaton20008

None of your business. Besides, what do you want to see? A patch note or something? How would that help? Seriously, they would tell you stuff they edited out that you would not understand because you havnt played or seen the game. I play alot of WoW, so if someone that has never played WoW looks at a patch note they probably wont be able to make heads or tails of what was being fixed. Same here.

I dont understand people and their stupidity these days. You have an organization that says a game is AO. Fine. Then, after the game creators change stuff to lower the rating people suddenly dont trust it? Make up your minds.

This watch dog group has lost, but they are still fighting back. See how desperate they are getting? They want a solid victory under their belt to secure a strong foot hold so they can persue their crazed agenda.

The best example i can give is this:

When you watch a movie or read a book what do you do? Answer that. MY answer is that i get into the book. Maybe its hard to explain, but i see the action if im reading it, and i become the action. I see the characters and i imagine everything they do, as if im there. Then after im done reading the book i can recall all that has happend as if it were a movie.

When you play a game like FF10. Its a REALLY good game, and has a great story line. When your done playing it, you can go back and recall all that you did. Everything that you experinced. See the faces of the characters, just like as if i was reading. At least thats how i see it.

I really think video games are a type of art. If you cant consider it an art, at least consider it an experince with your imagination. I just cant see why people would want to limit that imagination, in any way.

Iv read many books that describe war, sex, rape, drugs, etc etc. Imagine if they censored books like that are doing video games. You would lose out on alot of imagination stimulation, plus alot of GOOD books.

Thats where im coming from with the Michelangelo’s David example.

@AnonAmbientLigh

You're equating some bullshit second helping offering from R* & TT to fucking Michael Angelo?

dude, you seriously need help

Next thing you're going to say is Kool Aid is as good as Champagne and Micky-Ds is Tavern on the Green..

sheesh kid, get some perspective

@anonAmbientlight.

Please.. for goodness sakes please tell me you did NOT just compare Manhunt 2 to Michelangelo's David. I weep for you and your offspring.

No comments from Jack Thompson, Attorney? Pity - I was hoping somebody would have given him the HooHA!

Jokes aside, I don't really care much either way. Didn't plan to play it before, didn't mind when it was banned, don't mind now that it's back and still don't plan to play it. I do think it's vaguely amusing though. Kinda does lend some credence to the idea that the ESRB actually is pretty toothless.

Was this supposed to be the "Big Trouble"TM that was promised to us by Jack Thompson?

"To all you R* haters out there: THEY WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE GOOD GAMES."


They will make good games, then knuckle under to pressure from the censorcrats and the ESRB and take said good game and water it down for the masses.

"I’d rather see something in edited form than not see it at all."


I have to disagree on this one. For instance the anime Once Piece is a decent show in its original form. But the edited 4Kids version is just horrible and unwatchable.

I just wish people understood that you can't decide what is art and what isn't art. You can decide if you like it or not but you can't disqualify something as art just because you say so. Many artistic movements suffered from the snobbish idea that something isn't art because they don't consider it art and now we appreciate them as some of the most influential artistic movements. We are in the digital age and now digital artwork is now going through the exact same struggles in terms of people not considering video games art. The art snobs are out again and mean to disqualify it as art because they say so. Its not for anyone to decide this. The statements "thats not art to be" or "thats not art" doesn't make any sense and should be replaced by "I don't like that work of art because [enter reason]."

I'm tired of sitting here and having people force the opinions that video games won't equate to masterful artworks. Excuse me folks but thats for me to decide! Just like its for me to decide if Kool-Aid is greater than Champaign, if McDonalds is greater than Tavern on the Green. To me, I might like Kool-Aid and McDonalds. In reality I do like Kool-Aid but I don't care much for McDonalds. But I can promise you that unless Tavern on the Green serves delicious chicken wings with a fine brew and has all the football games playing on big screen TVs it won't be finer than my favorite Sunday Night hangout. Ever, end of story.

You see people are after and experience. Be it visiting a fine restaurant, looking at a painting, reading a blog, or playing a video game. Some people are looking for an experience. If they are hungry for their favorite chicken wings, wanting to watch their favorite football teams and have a few cold beers there is nothing that is going to be better than that. If your itching to play a FPS and someone hands you a RTS your probably not going to be as excited as you would if they handed your your favorite first person shooter. You can appreciate art with a gamepad. Sometimes picking up a controller, turning on a console and immersing yourself in a gaming experience for an hour or two is better than studying a painting, sculpture or watching a movie.

And RockStar flicks off the establishment again.

"And RockStar flicks off the establishment again."


And you base that on what? From where I'm standing it appears to me that Rockstar is kowtowing to the establishment by watering down their game. Mind you the first thing they need to work on before they get to the censorship is trying to make the game unlike its predecessor, IE make it fun.

@Erik

They will make good games, then knuckle under to pressure from the censorcrats and the ESRB and take said good game and water it down for the masses.


A little Censorship never hurt anyone? Oh well we can't fuck that corpse anymore for extra Manhunt points or whatever. At least we can still pull of stealth pistol kills. At least we can still slam shmuck's faces into live fuse boxes. Oh well we can't see that porno going in the backround in the seedy theatre where a supposed shoot out takes place. At least we can still castrate people....if that was censored then I'm afraid Erik we're on the same page then.

@Mutantemeco

What they took out is a moot point. But its irritating when people are touting Take-Two for standing up to the ESRB and critics. Standing up to them would have been sticking to their guns and keeping the game as it was. But instead they gave in to the demands of the critics and altered the issue that the critics had, the violence.

How would anyone consider this standing up to someone when you are doing what they want?

Bottom line Erik its rockstar, they will make up for all of this. Just shut your pie hole and pay them your $ 39.99 (american retal price).

They get their money, we get our game. Thats all thats gonna happen.

Garbage. It deserves constitutional protection, but I really wish this sort of game would be a commercial failure. Unfortunately, I know mommy is going to take little Johnny to see Saw III, then pick this game up on the way home. The general public eats this crap up.

Censored or not, all i can say is...

FUCK YEAH!

I am looking forward to this. I really enjoyed the first game. Not sure what I should do first. See Saw 4 or get MH2.

Are there others like me or am I the abberant? I've been playing voilent games all my life and have yet to commit a violent act against someone. I even served in the navy 6 years and never killed anyone. They never used to video game to train me to kill either. They taught me how to fix machines. There was some weapon training but the first thing they taught us was to only use a gun as a last resort when all other non-letthal and non-violent mean were exhausted. Why have I not harmed or killed anyone yet? Why, when I was picked on in school did I not go on a rampage? I was playing Doom and mortal kombat at the time. Shouldn't that have made me kill crazy?

The reason. There is no reason. No link. People that commit the tragedies we've seen over the years were sick and were going to go off one way or another.

What violent game did Hitler play? Were Albert Fish, Jeff Dahmer, John Gacy, Ed Gien, BTK, Son of Sam, and Charles Manson gamers?

Really what we need is a new medium to shift the blame to. That's how it always happens. How about Myspace and Emo music? I don't like those so they must be bad. Hey, I'm thinking like Jacko the Clown already.

[...] and it went down hill from there to the point that the game was banned in England, Ireland, AO-rated in North America… was going to be banned in Italy… and then suddenly two months later we have a game with the same name, just re-rated to a lower rating… Manhunt 2 Re-rated from AO to M, Gets Halloween Release Date California’s Leland Yee Demands Answers on Manhunt 2 Re-rate Watchdog Group Calls for Investigation in Wake of Manhunt 2 Re-rate a bit from Milady: [...]