August 24, 2007
While Rockstar fans are high-fiving over news that Manhunt 2 will now see the light of day as an M-rated horror game, the Campaign For a Commercial-Free Childhood is not impressed. The group has called for a federal government investigation into how Manhunt 2 came to be an M-rated game.
GamePolitics readers may recall the CCFC, which first impacted the video game scene last Fall. The group led a protest which resulted in the banning of M-rated game ads from public transit vehicles in Massachusetts.
On June 19th of this year the CCFC issued a demand that Manhunt 2 be rated AO. One of the group's primary concerns was the gesture control system of Nintendo's Wii, which the CCFC worried would make Manhunt 2's violence worse.
The group had incredibly bad timing however. Just hours before its campaign launched came word that Manhunt 2 had been banned in the U.K. And later the same day, the ESRB dropped its own bombshell, revealing that it had already rated Manhunt 2 for Adults Only.
Following today's announcement that Manhunt 2 will launch on Halloween with an M rating, the CCFC has gotten back into the fray. The group issued a press release which reads, in part:
On a phone call with CCFC’s Dr. Susan Linn, ESRB President Patricia Vance refused to comment on what changes Rockstar made or whether any of the content described [in an IGN preview] was still in the game.
The press release includes a statement from Dr. Linn:
The [CCFC] is extremely concerned that the ESRB has downgraded its rating for Manhunt 2... Despite industry claims to the contrary, M-rated games continue to be marketed and sold to children under seventeen. The ESRB’s reversal of its earlier decision dramatically increases the likelihood that Manhunt 2 – the most violent game to date produced for the interactive Nintendo Wii platform – will be marketed and sold to children.
Just three months ago, the ESRB felt that Manhunt 2 was so violent that it took the extraordinary step of giving a game an AO rating for violent content for only the second time in its history. We urge the ESRB to make public their rationale for changing Manhunt 2’s rating, including detailing any content that was removed from the game.
We call upon Rockstar Games to allow the content of Manhunt 2 to be reviewed by an independent review board with no ties to the video game industry.
We ask the Federal Trade Commission to investigate the process by which Manhunt 2’s rating was downgraded from AO to M.
Comments
-In its last report, the Federal Trade Commission found that minors were successful in buying a M-rated game 42% of the time(but 35% of the time in major retailers like Wal-Mart, Best Buy, etc.)
-The ESA reported that a combined 86% of all game sales(combining both computer and console game buyers)were to people over 18.
-Of that 14% left over(that being sales to minors), 91% of those sales were with parents present at the time of purchase. Meaning that sales to minors by themselves is only 1.26% of all video game sales, and applying the FTC’s 42% to that, it means that M-rated game sales to minors by themselves only account for 0.53% of all video game sales!
The CCFC are worried about 0.53% of all game sales? Pathetic.
Into a VIDEO GAME? They wan't to make Congress waste even more time and money than they already waste to look into a video game.
Does that not sound like the height of absurdity?
@Pandralisk
Stop that. It's not a conservative or liberal issue. Hilary Clinton wanted to ban violent games too. It's an issue of misinformation, control, and stupidity. (And as for free speech, it sure as hell ain't the conservatives who want to revive the Fairness Doctrine. Chose your accusations wisely.)
Well she's not allowed to, if she did she could get sued by Rockstar (and since they gave manhunt 2 an Ao rating they wouldn't hesitate to).
The [CCFC] is extremely concerned that the ESRB has downgraded its rating for Manhunt 2… Despite industry claims to the contrary, M-rated games continue to be marketed and sold to children under seventeen. The ESRB’s reversal of its earlier decision dramatically increases the likelihood that Manhunt 2 – the most violent game to date produced for the interactive Nintendo Wii platform – will be marketed and sold to children.
As pointed out upteenth times the first statement is BS. The next statement is a no-brainer. I mean if a game goes from Ao to M then it significantly increases the chances it will sold at all.
We call upon Rockstar Games to allow the content of Manhunt 2 to be reviewed by an independent review board with no ties to the video game industry.
Let me guess one that you guys personally picked out and is as biased as Jack Thompson? Sure they can rate it after the game is released. Even if Rockstar gave them a copy before that time, their rating won't matter because it wouldn't impact whether or not they can sell the game at most retailers (like the esrb) and they wouldn't have to put their rating anywhere on their box.
It's about time we started sterilizing people at birth. Plus, we'd never have to listen to another Republican blather on about abortion - two birds with one stone!
Just three months ago, the ESRB felt that the uncensored version of Manhunt 2 was so violent that it took the extraordinary step of giving a game an AO rating for violent content for only the second time in its history. We urge the ESRB to rate the new, censored version of Manhunt 2 AO just as well, because we just plain love to demand crap all the damn time, it's our hobby, we got nothin' better to do.
We call upon Rockstar Games because we want to annoy them into oblivion, to allow the content of Manhunt 2 to be destroyed by an independent terrorist organizatoin with ties to the law industry. We already know just who to talk to about that!
We ask the Federal Trade Commission, because it just sounds cool, to investigate the process by which Manhunt 2’s rating was downgraded from AO to M. Yeah, invenstigate! And process! Cool words, hey? Makes the stuff read more grown up and all serious.
Don't by video games! They're evil! Everything mature, grown up, or made for people over 18 is evil! That's right -- every grown up is a child at heart, don't forget that. There *must* be no video games for adults. God forbid we find out we have nipples.
TRANSLATION: They're lying! Believe us instead!
This whole thing is rediculous and all the CCFC is doing is SELLING MORE COPIES OF MANHUNT 2
R* should cut them a royalty check!
bet it happens every damn week
They'll send a thank you card.
If the game were to be judged by an independent source it should be me, because I, unlike the CCFC, can look at a videogame, and not get the urge to douse it with holy water.
thank goodness I don't have to make any of my own decisions...
[The Government]
The Government, let us raise your kid!
As far as I know, it's completely legal to market violent games to kids age sixteen.
i think using the 42% figure at the end there was a mistake, the whole 42% of kids make up the 1.26% of games sold to minors alone. the other 58% who couldnt buy the game wouldnt be included in the sales figure would they?
The producers of Married With Children did the same(sent a fruit basket every Christmas) to some housewife in Michigan that bitched about the show many years ago, because all it did was boost their ratings and put the Fox network on the map.
The CCFC should get a tongue-in-cheek thank you card from Take-Two since their bitching and moaning will just sell more copies of Manhunt 2 on Halloween.
"CCFC STOPS SALE OF VIOLENT GAME MARKETED TO CHILDREN"
and the smaller headline...
"MANIAC KID KILLS VIAGRA EMPLOYERS FOR BROADCASTING DURING THE AFTERNOON"
Please. Videogame ads should be the last thing attacked. If movies/erection pills/mind of mencia commercials (okay, the last one was a joke) can be shown on channels kids have easy access to, we have a problem if the CCFC is looking at the game industry.
I didn't think about that. I'll just chalk that up to assuming that those 58% that got turned away came back later on with a parent or guardian, even though it could also be assumed that they went to another store.
I just ran with the stats. Still, based on all those stats, minors buying a M-rated game by themselves is actually a rare occurance.
"I just ran with the stats. Still, based on all those stats, minors buying a M-rated game by themselves is actually a rare occurance."
And its a rare occurance that gets the cashier fired.
I'm just going to say;
SHUT THE F**K UP
Jesus christ,
the game has been altered to suit the M liscence,
let it go.
VULTURES the lot of them.
I hate everyone.
i suppose the kids that couldnt get it alone would bring in parents, but even then that means theyd be part of the earluier figure anyway.
either way its less than 2% of the market.
So any responsible parent would know what their kid is doing, or at least playing, in their own home.
So not only can bad game buy choices be stopped when the parent buys the game for their child, but also it can be stopped at the home as well.
So...with that OBVIOUS solution found, why does our government leaders continue to persue this idea that video games need restrictions?
I hear its because they want you to believe they care about your children. I doubt they do. Sounds like fear mongering and easy votes for them, if they can sucker the ignorant.
Well, if it didn't involve votes, good PR, or money I doubt we would hear the government.
No, it isn't.
"Despite industry claims to the contrary, M-rated games continue to be marketed and sold to children under seventeen. The ESRB’s reversal of its earlier decision dramatically increases the likelihood that Manhunt 2 – the most violent game to date produced for the interactive Nintendo Wii platform – will be marketed and sold to children."
These people are facist idiots who continue to purport their myths in order to try and curb free expression and free speech.
We need to start *seriously* acting to shut these people and these myths down, or it's just going to get worse.
They're getting as bad as anti abortion people.
Manhunt gets AO, ESRB praised to high heaven.
Manhunt Rated M after being censored, suddenly ESRB is questionable?
You either fucking trust them or you don't. You can't just fucking praise them when they make a decision you like.
If any game is ever rated AO again, I am going to demand a fucking federal investigation.
These retards and John Boy are a part of the same hive mind.
don't these people have bigger, more important issues to worry about?
They're doing it as part of their quest to eliminate everything they find objectionable; theoretically they're doing that for "the children" which also means they'd like to dictate how you raise your kids.
The entire process should be publicly published so there are no excuses or mistakes.
To my knowledge a dev or publisher can release the vids they will present to the ESRB, however, do you really expect them to do that when it can give away significant portions of the story, and gameplay?
Get back to parenting CCFC, it's what you were supposed to do in the first place instead of blaming your inabilities to monitor your children everything other than yourself.
~Sol~
well, I think the process can be generalized so as not to give away too many details and certain things could easily be masked until after the release and review process. so maybe not a real-time report but a timely one.
I think if anything positive can come of this bullshit, this my be one possible angle.
and, it should not be released from the dev side but from the esrb side.
I mean what's the harm in releasing the details of the process 3-6 months after release?
Also, in response to this comment made by Dr. Linn "Just three months ago, the ESRB felt that Manhunt 2 was so violent that it took the extraordinary step of giving a game an AO rating for violent content for only the second time in its history. We urge the ESRB to make public their rationale for changing Manhunt 2’s rating, including detailing any content that was removed from the game."
As a game developer I can assure you that Manhunt 2 being only the second game ever to be rated AO for violence is false. There are many many games that have gone through this exact process of submitting, changing content or appealing to the ESRB, and being re-rated before the game is released. Largely this is a private matter that is dealt with between the developer/publisher and the ESRB until a conclusion is reached. The only difference with Manhunt 2 is the amount of public exposure that this game has gotten due to the rating it recieved before launch.
And, if I remember correctly, the details as to why the ESRB makes a desicion on a rating is left up to the developer/publisher to share with the public, (confidentiality, I assume, is contractually obligated on the part of the ESRB) and is not something that the ESRB can just willy-nilly share with any group that comes along.
Also, I got to talk with Hal at the ECA booth. We were both quite sad that Mr. Thompson chose not to show up to PAX. I was quite proud to shake the man's hand. Woot! :D
But why? Why the need for secrecy on the ratings process? Why the smoke and mirrors?
Why not blow the whole thing wide open to public scrutiny?
If you read my comments in this story you'll understand the context of this question.
But I seriously doubt that's what happend.
What's next, international inspectors demand access to Mario's mushroom munitions?
(Oh, and CCFC... real nice form in crying foul against a revision of a game that you haven't seen yet... and do you really trust the government to be an impartial observer in this? Do we really want to go back to a Hayes Code/Comics Code era of federal regulation of culture? Didn't think so...)
As for this...I think they are just trying to discredit the ESRB, and are using Manhunt 2 as the scapegoat.
-P
Regardless, the only real credence that I'd give them, is to have the ESRB to come out with their reasons as to why games are rated the way they are.
There is the fine line, that the problem with being completely open about what's been revised in the game spoils the content for the consumer and ultimately harms the developer's sales. On the other hand, they're so secretive that nobody can make heads or tails of what gives games their ratings.
I'm tired of all this nonsense. I wanted to play the full uncensored version of Manhunt 2, I'm a blood and gore horror kind of guy after all. But, because of the ESRB rating it AO, that'll never happen, at least not on any of the consoles. Now they cut it up some and got it down to a Mature rating and people still are challenging it. But why? It's obviously not intended for anyone under 17, so if you don't want you kid to get it then don't let them get it. It's pretty much that simple. The Wii also has parental controls that allow you to lock out games with certain ratings, so there is another option, but don't say people like myself, a grown man, cannot play this game because some stupid kids might see it.
I'm a graduate student of History at UMass (there's my creds) so let me make this clear, Jesus as a man DID exist as a person, religions don't just appear without a movement or a person who brings it about. The person Jesus existed, as did Muhammad and Buddah, now whether or not you believe that these people were divine is of course a matter of personal belief... (for further reading you might want to check out several PRIMARY DOCUMENTS written by contemporaries of the time.. like Roman politicians who were irritated by a Hebrew rabble-rouser by the name of Jesus)
@the actual topic
This kind of thing is really getting out of hand; when is the industry going to stand up and fight, when are they going to try and overcome the MYTH that video games are inherently for children?
"I’m a graduate student of History at UMass (there’s my creds) so let me make this clear, Jesus as a man DID exist as a person"
Jesus is as real as Robin Hood or Santa Claus
I'm not going to spend much time replying to you because you're not very smart, I'm not religious but as a student of history I can't say that someone didn't exist because I don't like the religion they founded. There is more historical evidence (read; peer-reviewed by historians and scientists) for the existence of Jesus than there is for Attila the Hun. If you don't like Christianity you can view him as an ancient (and successful) David Koresh.
As I told Josh yesterday (he didn't know about the re-rating), "This will be the dumbest thing Take-Two ever did, because it should lead to a federal investigation of the ESRB, and it should."
Okay, so I'm guilty of giving them the idea. So sue me.
What happens, kiddies, is that the ESRB, which is owned, operated, and funded by the industry "arranges" a re-rating of the game through the backdoor, and that's what happened here.
Whether there is a federal investigation or not, this truly is a dumb move by the ESRB. The ESRB could, until this, plausibly argue that its giving an AO rating to Manhunt 2 shows it could be trusted by parents. Not now.
Oh, and I have a couple of tricks up my sleeve for the ESRB on this. Stay tuned. Is this a great country or what? Hooah!!!
Jack Is Back Thompson
The FTC gave the indusrty kudos for continuing to reduce sales of M-rated games to minors, especially at chain retailers.
The FTC spanked the industry in the area of Internet marketing and not having ESRB content descriptors on the front of game packaging.