September 9, 2007
A prominent English game designer has taken a shot at Rockstar over the Manhunt 2 controversy.In a lengthy CVG interview, David Braben (Elite) said:
There have been a few games that have strange ratings like Gears of War (18)... this is no more than you'd expect in a 15 film like Alien Vs Predator or The Terminator films.
This means that when a more genuine 18 comes along, parents assume it is no worse than Gears of War, and is perhaps why Manhunt 2 was banned... Having said that, from what I've heard of Manhunt 2... it is not the sort of game the industry should be making, as it is inevitably going to attract controversy.
While Manhunt 2 might have brought short term gain to Rockstar, it damages the reputation of the industry as a whole, long term...
The issues over ratings, over the 'Hot Coffee' incident, Manhunt 2, Bully, and the business over Manchester Cathedral in Resistance: Fall of Man - even though the criticism of Resistance was not deserved - have all helped keep... respectability away. We need to look at the games we are making in this light, and stop shooting ourselves in the foot.
Comments
Then he says that games like Manhunt 2 shouldn't be allowed because they will cause controversy. I don't quite get that. So game developers shouldn't push the envelope because some people might be offended. If we lived by that standard in every walk of life, we would be stuck with clothing that covers us from neck to toe, women not being able to wear blue jeans, movies, books, and music without cursing or violence, etc.
Sometimes someone needs to push the envelope to progress. Not all games, movies, music are meant for everybody, and just because someone doesn't like it, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be made. Sure there are limits when using real life tragedies, but in fictional worlds, there is basically no limit.
The issue of violence in games isn't a problem for the industry, its a problem for those that don't like it. People need to realize that times change and they need to keep up with it. All the tools are made available to them, such as ratings boards and parental controls. They just need to use them and be more responsible.
Whenever people are trying to gain acceptance for any sort of new thing, be it entertainment, a lifestyle, art, whatever, there is a line at any point that you need to stop and let the world catch up and realize it isn't so bad after all.
Maybe we've found the limit of what people will currently accept.. and Manhunt 2 is it. Let people catch their breath, come to realize it isn't so bad, and then we can push a bit more?
Haha.
If movies, books, or even drawing and sculpture did this, none of the greatest works in history would have ever come to exist
What is damaging to the Industry is the fact that both the 'fors' and the 'againsts' keep referring to this game until it has recieved far far more attention than it deserves.
Of course both have a right to be made, and I'll defend both. The major point I got from the article was just that we should be trying harder to make more art to be taken seriously as a medium.
That doesnt mean any less violence, more if anything, vioence can accomplish a lot on an artistic or sociopolitical level. I just think in the end thats better off.
My beef with manhunt 2 is more about its intention than its content, though I am making assumtions on its content for which I apologise. My view however is that in part the game was made aas violent as it was just to piss off people, and while they should have the right to do that I think in the end the game is lessened by that intention.
Even art in any other medium that tries pushing boundaries for the sake of just doing it seems sloppy, and resultantly seems one dimensional and lacking.
should read:
every madden, or sports reiteration
(i really should proof read)
I would go as far to say that it is worse than Manhunt 2 simply due to the graphical quality. When heads explode in Gears it is a sickening sight. I don't think this fucker has even played the games he talks about.
Well if the movie indutry isn't shooting its self in the foot when it allowes crap like "The Hills Have Eyes" to be made, then I don't see how the games industry can be either.
Gorram it really is just like the frelling CCA. "nope Irrational, Freedom Force 3 isn't acceptable because at one point there's teh vampires!111 and we all know that McCarthy'll rise from the grave and destroy us all if there's anything even remotly objectionable in a game"
There's little doubting that Manhunt 2 has caused controversy. Was that the intention? Probably. Is that controversy bad for the Industry? Possibly, in the short term, but as Braben himself said, the biggest crippler to the game industry is the fact they are viewed as 'Merchandising' for movies, like cuddly toys and Kids-meals in McDonalds. Those envelopes need to be pushed, though I suspect opinions will differ greatly on whether this is 'pushing' in the right way.
That said, I'm more interested in knowing more about Elite IV, it's been an awfully long time in devlopment, and I'm concerned it's getting a reputation as Vaporware.
This sentence does worry me a lot. Because it implies that you should not make something that attracts controversity. Following that line of thought leaves you with not making anything that attracts controversity.
Something i'd consider outright dangerous.
It's gonna make you even more famous!
Now, seriously. I like Braven, I loved Elite for some years, but before he goes on blaming people for not thinking in of the box, he should just hide inside and peek out through the little holes.
Manhunt is merely 1 game out of how many in existance? And even if you point the finger at everything Rockstar itself makes, Rockstar is one company out of how many?
The truth is that there are a great many genres of TV shows, movies, books, video/computer games, music, etc. And not every individiual is going to like every single genre of every single medium. Let alone every single product within every single genre.
Quite frankly, to point the finger at Manhunt and say it's to blame for the overall negative view of the industry, or to even say it SHOULD be the cause of negative views of the industry, is no different than taking a controversial belief taught by a single preacher and holding it up and saying it's beliefs such as this that mean you should never hold a religious belief of any kind because we don't like what this guy is saying and it reflects negatively on ALL religious beliefs.
Critics are well known for painting broad brush strokes when looking at what they feel to be flaws. See something they don't like, and it supposedly is an excuse to give negative criticism to everything they look at not related to it or only vaguely similar.
Manhunt 2 needs to be criticized for it's own strengths and/or weaknesses and leave the rest of the gaming industry alone.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Yeah, let's not challenge the conventional, let's never push the boundaries, let's never be controversial. It's bullshit thinking and it's boring! You know what shoots the industry in the proverbial foot? People like this who say other games shouldn't be made because they're "too controversial". I've watched movies ten times worse than Manhunt, so why is it not okay for games like that to exists?
This guy is just foolish.
He didn't say it shouldn't be allowed. He said the industry shouldn't be making games like that... there is a difference. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
As for the whole envelope pushing thing, there are envelopes that need to be pushed, but gratuitous violence is not one of them. Pushing it for the sake of controversy in childish and utterly pointless. And violence? Like we need more violence... like any social issue is actually being pushed? Don't get on some kind of high horse over it and think of Rockstar as a righteous crusader for the truth. They are trying to make a quick buck of our perverse fascination with sadism and violence. There are real social issues that could be touched by video games, and this would give video games actual credibility.
Finally, people need so stop calling everyone who criticizes the industry names. At least he cares about the continued existence and rights of games, unlike some people out there. Name calling is the human equivalent of a monkey throwing poop, and it does nothing to help ones argument. If gamers want people to stop seeing video games as something for kids, gamers need to stop acting like children.
Now go ahead, call me names.
Sadly, people do exactly what you described in your religion example fairly often.
Regarding what Braben said, I think I somewhat understand it. I do not mind a game that "pushes the envelope" if there is a good and valid reason for its content in the context of the game and the story and atmosphere the devs want to create, but I despise pushing the envelope just for the sake of doing so. I know movies and stuff do it all the time, but I don't like it there either. With video games getting so much negative attention, it's an especially bad time to do it.
Of course, I tend to try and avoid being too critical of Manhunt 2, not having any experience with it or first-hand knowledge about what it is like.
I was right. That process has begun, as this story proves.
Jack Thompson, aka Nostradamus ;)
We need to stop the perception that there is no place for games like these. There is nothing wrong with horrifically violent, gory, and/or sexual games. As long as they are labeled as such, they have just as much a right to be developed and sold and we have a right to play them or not as we see fit.
No game should be damaging to the industry. That's the fault of an incorrect perception, not the game or the developer. Public perception is what we need to change.
Andrew Eisen
I was right. That process has begun, as this story proves. ” –Thompson
Reading comprehension skills, Thompson. Do you have them?
Braben is not criticizing the marketing of mature-rated games to kids. He’s criticizing the industry for producing games that cause controversy (when he ought to, in my opinion, be criticizing the dip sticks who make these games controversial).
Andrew Eisen
If you did, in fact, say that; then why, pray tell, do you insist on your crusade? If the market will indeed take care of itself, as we have said from the beginning, then isn't what you're trying to do meaningless and nothing more than prideful posturing?
Nostradamus was prone to give torrents of unprovable, hazy, and vague depictions of disaster that would never be confirmed to be true. I suppose it's an accurate self depiction.
Oh, and this article has nothing to do with marketing games to kids. I predicted you would do this in my last comment (change the subject wildly and distract with random bullshit). My prediction actually came true. Yours has not. FAIL LAWYER AM CRY
Nonsense. At the end of the day, it's nothing but the bottom line. Controversy sells Rockstar's games. It has from day one. Thompson, the media, and all of the pundits are tools in an exploitive advertising campaign.
Nevertheless, these things will iron themselves out. As video games continue to permeate into all age ranges, extreme games like Manhunt 2 will find their place next to the Texas Chainsaw Massacres and The Hills Have Eyes ("Unrated," by the way). People by and large stopped whining about Hollywood's "controversial" movies.
The criticism of Bully wasn't deserved either.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Jesus. Some people never learn. *facepalm*
We've all seen the games they produce. We've heard dubious stories from those that have worked with the company. They've been involved in scandal and controversy like none other. The company has a history of deliberately pushing the envelope on their titles, seemingly just because they want to see how much they can get away with. And because the president of the company is a very shrewd and calculating individual, there are now rumors that Rockstar submitted an AO version of Manhunt 2 /on purpose/ to generate additional buzz and hype, meaning that they've used the ESRB to play us like pawns. That makes them look like quite the black spot on the industry's face.
If Rockstar produced a selection of games that were aimed at younger audiences as well, instead of only all these big tough manly games aimed at the beer-drinking college fratboy demographic, they wouldn't be under such suspicion.
LEARN. TO. READ.
When he is staying games like manhunt 2 shouldnt be made because of controversy.
Is he saying that controversial games shouldne be made, or thats games shouldnt be made just to be controvercial. a subtle difference. In the first case thats wrong, stifles creativity, but the second case makinhg games just to get media attention when we arent being taken seriously yet is a shame. Boundaries have to be pushed, but when we're skriting so close to legislation because of other past examples, its like kicking a hornet's nest, sure you can do it, but its not a good idea. When games are taken more seriously, then we can push the boundaries, but doing so now is risky and should only be done if the example is really worth it, gore for gore's sake like in manhunt does no one any good.
@JT piss off, learn to read for once.
@ Andrew Eisen
Why does there have to be a place for that type of game? I mean, we call a book that is nothing but badly written sex and violence trash, on the merit that it is nothing but sex and violence. Same thing with movies that are just sex and violence with no coherent story. Now why are games different? We are trying to claim them as a legitimate literary genre and yet we keep arguing the merits of something we would not except in any other medium. If a game has a thought provoking storyline that actually makes a point or gets people to ask questions, and happens to be horrifically gory, there is no issue here. If a game is based on causing horrific gore and death then it is trash. Just like anything else would be.
Nostradamus was prone to give torrents of unprovable, hazy, and vague depictions of disaster that would never be confirmed to be true. I suppose it’s an accurate self depiction."
This is possibly the best comment I've ever read on the internet by far.
Jack (if that was you) you really do need to start reading things, as often has been said, you'd actually be of some influence if you were sane and you provided coherent, accurate, informed arguments.
But you don't.
Which is why the Florida bar sent you to a psych doctor.
As a developer who makes violent games, I'm very happy you are who you are, because when people get to know you (like Hilary Clinton) they realize you are actually quite embarrassing, and so distance themselves from you (like Hilary Clinton).
On the one hand, I support your 'crusade' to have laws passed that mean you can't sell a game rated for 18 year olds to people under that age. We have this system in the UK. It works to a certain degree.
However, everything else you do - Halo being a sniper training game? Counterstrike being the cause of the Virginia Tech guy? Come on Jack, wake up from your delirium.
I disagree. Games that are made, just to be controversial are ESSENTIAL for art. And sofar, no politician succeeded to make a law that is constitutional, not even close.
As far as controversial games goes: If you don't like it, then don't buy it.
But there will allways be a person that DOES like it.
Horror movies are also made, just to be controversial, and that has been done so many times, the act itself isn't controversial anymore.
Just like paintings. Back in the day, the paintings from Impressionist painters were ridiculed, and back in the day even voices of censorship were stirred.
Oh, and Dennis, please ban Jack Thompson, because lately, he's just posting to be an ass. (Yes, a Jack-ass)
GP: Yeah, for some reason the new spam filter grabs all of his stuff, so I am able to verify the IP. Faux Jacks have been IP-banned as they appear.
Why does there have to be a place for that type of game?
Simple. Because there's an audience for it.
I mean, we call a book that is nothing but badly written sex and violence trash, on the merit that it is nothing but sex and violence.
True, but we don’t ban trashy books nor do we judge an entire medium by them so I’m not buying your comparison.
Andrew Eisen
Controversy in the sense of challenging conventions should always be welcome and encouraged, which is where I agree with you. but sometimes the motivations are less pure.
in the case of manhunt, which (in my view) is made to encourage controversy, not to push boundaries but to get attention and to make up perhaps for other lacking features (like plot, drama etc, which was my view of saw and what I expect from manhunt, though I could be wrong).
I'm not saying such games dont have a place (I would never say that), just that making them in the context of the current political climate is a bad idea if it doesnt actually have a valid message, and I dont think manhunt is doing a good job of it, if it were a game like bioshock that asked genuine moral questions, presented grotesque butchery in a meaningful sense as a means of narrative or critique, I would say go for it even if the government had said 'one more slasher and theyre banned' (maybe especially then) because that kind of controversy is what should be encouraged. Thats the kind of controversy that sparks arguement and promotes defence of the artisitic medium because it IS art, when it comes to manhunt all we have to back it up is 'violence is artistic expression' but if we had a real example of art then the controversy and debate can become a positive move to taking games seriously.
Thats where I agree with him on the 'shooting yourself in the foot' metaphor. I say bring back all the gore, the castration with pliers, the bludgeoning, but give it a context and a message that permiates through the violence and shows the critics what is being said, that shows we are defending art.
At the end of the day I will defend manhunt 2 for the same reasons you would, especially because I think its a bad idea, because thats TTs right to do, but in this political climate I think the industry should be trying harder to push controversy with meaningful examples of art. Because thats the kind of controversy that encourages creative expession, not the kind that stifles it.
'respectability' is a subjective word... there's respect from the parents of teenagers who don't want to have to worry about what's in the games that their kids are playing... and respect from people who want to see artistic expression in interactive media...
a baby-boomer age guy in the suburbs (US) wants to see violence in the Sopranos and smut in Sex and The City (i don't regard either of these to have artistic merits -but some would disagree)... and there's no controversy or question of "respectability" or credibility loss from HBO or the producers of these TV shows -in fact, our culture celebrates these 2 TV shows and regards them almost as high-art (which i disagree with)
my personal view is that sara j parker stabbing a guy in the balls in a way that's supposed to be cute and morally justified because "men suck"... is not different than a guy being cut with a pair of pliers to show an act of violence, in a violent context... one instance does not cause controversy and one does.
so... it's a question of whether video games are for kids (*castrates the bunny* "silly rabbit" hehehehe) or maybe they will one day be entertainment for tomorrow's 50 and 60 year olds... and what will happen in between?
@jt... i would say that entertainment marketing in general is very focused on teenagers (outside of Paul McCartney at Starbucks)... and that the content of games is not so different than entertainment in general (Movies, Music, TV)
Oh wait. There is none.
Wrong again Jack. You see if the industry wants to stay alive then it will have to produce product for its largest target audience, adults. You only assume that these games are being marketed and sold to children because you cannot accept the fact that there is an adult audience for this. R rated movies are marketed and sold to adults, just as M rated games are intended for adults.
Or do you also believe that there should be no R rated movies because only children watch movies?
Andrew Eisen: Actually, we consider all romance novels to be trash because many are. Any romance novel with legitimate questions would be passed over because no one will consider a romance novel being serious.
Also, no one is advocating banning Manhunt 2... at least no one here. The point is not should it or shouldn't it be allowed, it is should it or should it not have been made... as I said, and as Chris is laboring to get people to understand, just because it can be done doesn't mean it should.