@Sammy

there’s going to be one guy who’ll find the blur code and will remove it.

Wouldn't surprise me. Code that is that easy to plug in would be relatively easy to remove too.

And then it's Hot Coffee all over again...

@Zen

Oy, that was a bad one.

I am, too. While I can speak with him, this game is nothing but gross controversial disgust. I can't see how anyone could get enjoyment out of games like Manhunt; all it is is senseless killing in terribly brutal ways. Not much of a game, if you ask me.

It sickens me, and I'm not speaking for him, for that very reason. It's disturbing, like guro (hentai that involves mutilation and excessive gore). While I don't like it, though, I'd still support the rights of people. But that doesn't mean I'll support the game itself, because I feel it was, as he said, made simply for "controversy for the sake of controversy," which can be both good and bad, depending on the context; in this case, I think it's bad. While it does raise issue about the AO rating, overall, I don't think it is worth it, and only hurts more than helps.

The fact that there's posters who were even into the idea of the bizarre testicle attack, and will now not buy it because it was removed, is a source of some mystery to me. I guess to each his own, but I've never seen the funny in testicle attack.

Of course, for game violence, my speed is really more Prince of Persia, too, so it's possible that I'm just not on the same standards as folks.

On a somewhat different topic: I think GP needs to have somebody else make the polls that show up on the front page. They are often written in a way where all answers display a knee-jerk reaction.

The current one is especially bad, though many others often exhibit these traits:


"Given what you know about the changes Rockstar made to the game, will you be buying Manhunt 2?"

- I'm Buying
- No Way
- Not Sure


The wording of the question is specifically discussing it as if the decision to buy the game is affected by the changes currently made to Manhunt 2. These answers are directly interpreted as:

- Yes, I'm buying it despite the changes.
- No, I'm not buying it because of the changes.
- Not sure if the changes will affect my decision to buy Manhunt.

In other words, the answers assume that we were already going to buy Manhunt 2. What about those of us who have no interest at all in the game? We're not represented in the poll.

While I know that internet polls aren't really "official", polls written with this sort of bias help feed the common misconception that we're all frenzied in anticipation for the next Rockstar bloodfest, when I say "No Way" it will be interpreted by the pixel-anti and gamercore alike as being another vote toward "See R*, you shouldn't have censored it!" when my actual reaction is "I don't give two shits about this game."

If it was just this one poll I wouldn't feel the need to comment, but more often than not the polls on GP give me this same impression. I always want to put my vote in on the poll, until I realize that my vote will be biased toward the opinions of the person who created the poll. So usually I just look at the results and wonder "How many of these people actually meant what they said here, and how many just didn't read the poll closely enough?"

Enough ranting, carry on with the otherwise good work. :)

Wasn't gonna buy it either way but disapointing that they had to censor their crappy game.
Its art, I may not like to see guys balls get riped of but if mainstream movies like sin city can do it then why not games?

@Father Time:

As Nekowolf said, the AO rating was not originally intended to be reserved for sexually explicit games. The fact is, and I think we all can agree on this, the point where you cross the line in sexual content is much clearer than it is with violence.

Retailers, console makers, and the ESRB...of all of them, the ESRB deserves the least blame for the unavailability of AO games. Yes, they can indirectly control what gets released as we have seen with Manhunt 2, but anyone who claims that the ESRB is doing it deliberately, ask yourself this: WHY? WHAT'S IN IT FOR THEM? And spare me the old, "it gets the watchdog groups off their backs" argument. Anyone with half a brain knows those idiots can never be placated, and I feel confident saying that the ESRB knows it as well.

@lumi

You are absolutely right about challenging developers. Challenging them by restricting them to some tired and terrible fad. Why release a non-motion sensing Wii game? It just wouldn't work due Nintendo's zaniness developers are restricted to Nintendo's vision when it comes to hardware output. Kind of like the vision that ESRB,Sony,and Nintendo had of what Manhunt 2 should be. Rockstar is to blame as well. Why focus on releasing Manhunt 2 for the kiddie-biddie Wii? If Mh2 were to only come out for Sony systems we'd never be having these discussions. Completely under the radar just like the first game. WHICH HAS NEARLY IDENTICAL CONTENT WITH THE SEQUEL. Only difference like with ALL sequels is the fact we get added features, more levels, gameplay adjustments. Shit, the graphics are almost the same as Manhunt 1.

It seems like the nintendo company wants their system to be for all kinds of people since they started out with having alot of M rated games including some of the most graphic like, Resident Evil 4, Scarface, Mortal Kombat Armageddon, and so many others. The way this system is starting already with having Manhunt 2 that has even extra stuff in it than the Playstation 2 version, and going to release a game called No More Heroes that is supposed to be more violent than Manhunt 2, I would not start calling the wii a kid system, rather I would call it a system for a variety of people just like the xbox 360.

This is highly disappointing, as the death strikes are the entire reward structure for the stealth gameplay mechanics. They get increasingly over the top as you strive to get closer and pull off the harder kill moves. Now the payoff is severely neutered. It doesn't entirely kill the point of the game, but it does kill a large part of it. Here's hoping they release an AO-rated uncut version online somehow...

it's going to suck anyway, censoring it just gives them an excuse for it sucking so badly.

Ehh... Even for R*, using pliers to castrate some guy is too much. I can understand wanting to make a very extreme and gore-filled horror/survival game, but where does crap like that come in as an entirely necessary part of gameplay.
Most any gamer playing that would cringe and look away as they accidentally activate something like that. Doesn't sound like something to be 'enjoyed' any more.

@ ChrowX

It's not necessary, it's entirely optional. Which each weapon you are given three levels of kill; hasty, violent and gruesome. The castration move would almost certainly have been classed as gruesome, so anyone pulling off that move would have some idea of the level of gore they were about to see.

Besides, most of us manhunt fans were looking forward to that move. Ah well.

As much as this game may be an example of the current debate running through the gaming community I have to say..Whatever. I don't even see myself playing the game. It sounds boring as hell.

I'm curious as to how the castration was represented... In north america a film with male bits is x rated immediatley.

@HurricaneJesus:

Why? The game still plays exactly the same. No game play mechanics were removed.

Hey, wait a minute... fourteen years ago, Mortal Kombat let you rip out your opponent's spinal cord. How is that any less gruesome than Manhunt 2's castration sequence?

I'm at a complete loss to why anyone would want to play this game. Yay freedom of speech and all that, but how does this sort of game appeal to anyone?

That murder has been completely removed from the updated build of the game… Rockstar has added both an extreme blur effect and in most cases darkened the graphics so that it is nearly impossible to make any sense of what is going on…

Sounds like it was a combination of two of the scenarios Andrew Eisen predicted.

@Erik

Kind of takes some wind out of the opinion of Jack and yapping watch dog organizations that the rating was changed arbitrarily doesn’t it?

Nah, they'll just latch on to that "still the goriest game ever" comment as "proof" that the ESRB is morally bankrupt.

Maybe we're just meant to assume that it would have been OK if the spine came out along with the guy's junk.

@Rob

Back in the day, the original Tenchu on the PS1 gave players very satisfying death cut scenes as rewards for effective stealth kills. I agree that those cuts scenes are not 'mechanically' important to the game play. However I disagree that they are not emotionally important to the game experience.

Adding filters to a cut scene breaks the player out of the moment / reality, and that reality is the entire draw for a game such as this. Frankly, why else would you play a game like this other than wanting to experience something that you would never do (unless you are an idiot) in real life? I mean this is rockstar, it's not like they have Ubisoft's record for tight controls / rewarding stealth action. It's on the PS2 as well, so it's not like you're getting astounding graphics either.

So I have to say, making a blurry muddy mess of the super death kills does hurt the game. It breaks the fantasy, it takes away a game play reward, and don't even get me started on how candy-coated violence (glorified killing, vs cold factual murder) seems like a worse idea in the first place...

"Nah, they’ll just latch on to that “still the goriest game ever” comment as “proof” that the ESRB is morally bankrupt."


And I'll retort that the most gory, sick game ever (that I played as a youngin) is the arcade game Chiller.

Damnit ESRB you killed another good game. First The Punisher then Manhunt 2. I'll be importing from Holland thanks to you.

As pointed out if watching guys testicles being ripped of is your thing (in which case, in my personal opinion GROW UP!) then they can go watch SAW III, Hostel, a snuff film or whatever! Why buy a game to see that sort of thing?

In my strange little world games are meant to be about GAMEPLAY, so why anyone would have a problem with Manhunt 2 being released with the gameplay and story being kept intact, but the gory executions being a little blurry or dark?

inb4 people discover way to remove blur and darken using cheat devices, JT demands Manhunt 2 be banned and Rockstar investigated by FCC.

@JC

I think that was the punisher. the pc version had its share of uncensored trainers and cracks, and most of them didn't work properly. that was before the uncensored patch from thq though.

@EvilJez

Story? You Sir have obviously never played the original.

@ Jabrwock, Sammy:

there’s going to be one guy who’ll find the blur code and will remove it.

Wouldn’t surprise me. Code that is that easy to plug in would be relatively easy to remove too.

And then it’s Hot Coffee all over again…

If the blur were applied to the video, and then it were re-rendered and captured with the filter in effect, then there would effectively be no way to un-blur it.

If the original footage is in there and they're just applying the blur filter during run-time, then it could be disabled.

So, is the stuff that's getting blurred all pre-determined footage, or is it something that is based on the gameplay at the time of the kill scene?

Well, the way I see it is that it is a bad thing. I can understand the testicle part being removed (as a guy..that would have just HURT to watch), but the blurring of the deaths is a bit stupid and kills the reward of the hard work. How would you feel if all of the following were blurred to "make it better for the public" - Mortal Kombat's fatalities, Burnout's crashes, stealth kills in Splinter Cell or Metal Gear, any game involving sniping, when you died via chain saw in RE4 or anytime you popped a head in the same game. I wasn't really planning on buying the game personally because it's not really my cup of tea. But I REALLY don't agree that it should be edited because a particular group didn't like something about it. If we follow that thinking, then everything will be edited down to the point we won't have games at all since there are some people that don't even like the idea of having games period..from Manhunt 2 down to Tetris. And that's my rant for the day. :)

@kurisu7885

Apparently. I wasn't actually a fan of the original, I don't know exactly how far I got, but I didn't bother to finish it. This one didn't really strike my fancy either, I was just hoping R* would say fuckit and release the game as is, with no ESRB tag. Y'know, like the film industry. If 'Shortbus' can get mainstream acknowledgments, then Manhunt 2 should let you graphically rape the hunters to death. It's all about the double standard.

@ Zigs

Well, that sadly brings up the other problem in regards to censoship of gaming..the hardware companies. Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft all have the ability to block certain ratings of games on a console to protect children or what not, but then they go and will not allow anything beyond an M rating on there system. So if they tried to release the game as an "unrated" version, the companies would be suing them left and right as well as probably killing there chances to publish any other games with them.

@Zen

I'm thinking strictly PC of course. They should just go console with an ESRBi (outdated terminology, but hear me out) M-Tag, and then patch the game to the AO version. For all I know, that's the plan, (not bloody likely) but even if this were the case, I don't see myself ever buying the game, unless it's a Christmas present for someone I don't like.

@ Zigs

Ok, gotcha :)

Anybody see the irony in a game being partially neutered...by removing the ability to neuter? Sorry, just wanted to point that out.

@ Jabrwock

Are we to believe that R* would do something so easily cicumvented? Why would they do that when they go into so much trouble for removing access to a part of a previous game. If they are simply assuming that they are using the code to blur the scenes, then they are failing once again. If that is whatthey are doing, then did the truly remove the castration scene or did the just remove access to it like they did with hot coffe?

Err, I'm not sure what it's called. Gaussian was wrong. "Depth blur" is closer...

Perhaps they could include a cheat code to make it uncensored...
Like the old Genesis MK.

@E. Zachary Knight

Are we to believe that R* would do something so easily cicumvented?

Doing something more "integrated" would be much more time consuming, unless they foresaw this, and "prepared" it in advance, just in case. I'm also assuming that you'd need to do this on the PC, I doubt you just just "turn it off" on the PS2 version as easily.

If that is whatthey are doing, then did the truly remove the castration scene or did the just remove access to it like they did with hot coffe?

A simple removal of some more file links would make the castration scene un-usable even if it were unlocked (perhaps some kind of runtime linkage so that if it does get unlocked, it crashes instead of running). Hot Coffee still had all it's code intact, but access was removed.

whoops. linkey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_engine#Full-screen_motion_blur

This is pretty much what I expected...

Meh, I bought Manhunt almost two years ago and lost interest about three hours in.

@Jabrwock:

"A simple removal of some more file links would make the castration scene un-usable even if it were unlocked (perhaps some kind of runtime linkage so that if it does get unlocked, it crashes instead of running). Hot Coffee still had all it’s code intact, but access was removed."

Rule 1 of Hackers: If the code is there, they'll find a way to access it.

-P

This is terrible news for gamers. This shouldn't be happening. Importing is gonna be expensive for my PSP. I'm so angered right now. ROCKSTAR.....why?

To everyone who thinks a code to remove the blur would be Hot Coffee 2.0 for Rockstar, I disagree.

Remember Grand Theft Auto III? There was a code in that game which allowed dismemberment with a sniper rifle. You could pop someone's head, or blow there arms and legs off. That one went pretty much unnoticed, and was put there by Rockstar, to boot.

Now you look at Hot Coffee, a game that may have been placed there by Rockstar, but had been disabled so no one could find it, until someone restored the code to play it. Caused a huge uproar who's ramifications are still being felt today.

Now what, I ask you, is the difference between these two codes? Answer: One boosts the violence, the other boosts the sexual content. And there you have it.

Americans, by and large, have always bitched more about sexual content than violence in ANY media (not just games). Just like a line from the South Park episode, "Fun Time with Weapons" said, "I guess parents don't care about violence when there's sex stuff to worry about." As usual, Matt Stone and Trey Parker get it better than anyone else.

And that's why the removal of the Manhunt 2 blur would probably slide under the radar for most people.

As an aside, we live in a sick world where people will complain more about Carl Johnson having consensual sex with his girlfriend, but will ignore the fact that he had beat, shoot, and kill her. Both scenarios, incidentally, were 100% optional!

"Danny could use a pair of pliers to literally rip the testicles off a hunter. That murder has been completely removed from the updated build of the game…"


Great thanks a F***ing lot rockstar now im not even sure if i'll buy this game now...and dammit i wanted to be able to do that kill to Hilary duff's "sweet sixteen"

Damn Moronic Idotic anti gamers go find an actual hobby and shut the hell up already

@hilaryduffgta, among others

Are you seriously saying that the only reason you were going to buy this game is to see some guy get his nuts ripped off? What a waste of $50.

Seriously, if you are THAT free with your money please send me $50 so I can buy a copy of Skate tomorrow.

Thanks in advance,
Joe

well no but it was a HUGE reason i wanted the game...but seeing as how i dont have a ps2 right now i'll have to hold off on buying for a while...

As for you buying skate im sorry i just feel that the game is not appropriate for someone of your age bracket..how about hello kitty island adventure??

The moral conservative censorship board (ESRB) appreciates the cooperation of Take-Two. We have enjoyed raping the industry of free artistic expression and will continue to surplant our own subjective brand of "morality" deep insider every product this industry creates.

@VaMinion

Rule 1 of Hackers: If the code is there, they’ll find a way to access it.

well yes, but if it's unstable code that crashes every time you load it, then accessing it becomes pointless, yes? adding in "return to main menu" command in the code would also make it unusable, and even better, there wouldn't be a flag you could memory hack.

GP, in all fairness the poll should include an option for people who were not going to buy Manhunt 2 to begin with

@hillaryduffgta

If I had to name any one thing about it, it would be the torturous ways in which you can kill people and the callous nature of it in general. Unlike some other games in which you kill your enemies, namely Resident Evil, the killing is ancillary to the goal. There's also the fact that often the enemies in those games are either posessed or are zombies of some sort. The entire point of Manhunt 2 is murder. Brutal, sadistic murder and quite frankly I think it was a bad idea to make it.

Wow, that came out horrible. Lemme try again.

"Rockstar is deluding themselves if they think breaking links will keep people from accessing it. It doesn't matter if it's stable, people will still want it".

There.

-P

@VaMinion

Rockstar is deluding themselves if they think breaking links will keep people from accessing it. It doesn’t matter if it’s stable, people will still want it

But if it's unstable, then accessing it is useless, as it will crash the game before you get to see anything. It's quite easy to do actually. You just link to one version of a library, and then insert the other version in the final build. The game compiles normally, and runs fine, *until* it hits that scene. The symbols don't match at runtime, and down the game goes for a PS2 equivalent of BSOD...

And hacking it won't help unless you've got the original library file to insert. You can't just memory hack to reset a flag.

I've said it before (possibly here) but it's worth repeating: I'd likely buy the AO version of Manhunt 2 (assuming it was released for the PC) but I refuse to even consider the M version. I refuse to lay down money to support a system of censorship built around the precept that videogames are inherently for children.

This game just needs to be released so we can put all this behind us. The world will be ready for a game that pushes the AO envelope eventually...

isn't bad news to me

i would like to see a video of the blurred kills -maybe they still look cool or are still a gratifying pay-off for the effort(?) -if everything else is there, it sounds good to me

sounds like they found a good solution that doesn't compromise the game too much

(2)also...

it's ironic that one of the first things senator yee or anyone on the "anit-manhunt" side of the controversy will say is that the game has "castration with pliers".... which immediately causes the listener to try to picture that image... how many people, who never had the intention of ever playing the game or who don't even know what manhunt 2 is, have watched or read news coverage of the MH2 stuff and have heard this description and then pictured the image of the pliers scene?

1 kill out of many in the game... doesn't seem like a big deal... it's not like rockstar advertises this particular kill -or puts in the trailer... in the game, it probably wasn't even that detailed (some rendered polygons are less vivid than what someone's imagination can produce)

...i'm saying that more damage has been done by the coverage of the controversy than by the game

(3)a few people metioned a mod... i think that they'll cover their asses and render the effects with game video in real-time or else make it difficult to seperate the effects programmatically

(4)it's really not that gory and sick if you compare it to a lot of other games -it's just presented a little differently... like maybe violence in Medal of Honor or Gears of War is in a more comic-book and fantasy style -it's the same violence

@ JBourrie

You're the third to mention the biasness of the poll. I was two and Weatherlight was the first.

@E.Z.K.

Anybody call you EZK? That's your new rap name :)

I missed those posts. Glad to see that I'm not the only one who was annoyed by the poll.

If any of you think Leland Yee is going to shut up, forget it. Yee is a grandstander-especially when he can leverage it to pump his "nanny state" idea that he'd love to have the masses follow-who have already been proven not to think for themselves...I still think he's hoping for kickbacks from the video game industry as well.

That game sounds gruesome and I completely agree taht it should be sold in walmart where little kids are sure to buy it! Now excuse me while I buy the Unrated versions Saw 3 and Hostel from the middle of the aisle between the electronics area and the women's clothing...where no children will ever see them.

I'm not going to buy this type of game because it doesn't realyl catch my intrests.

But I want to know why the majority aren't going to buy ManHunt 2 from the polls?

Is it because of the re-rate?

The esrb is taking away my amendment right to a full version of a game like Manhunt 2.

I believe legal action needs to be taken on the esrb because the esrb gives games like Manhunt 2 the AO rating just for violence when they know that the consoles do not accept AO rated games.

Everyone needs to step up to the esrb so that in the future we can play the full versions of games like this.

@ Gamepolitics

I seen in the past where you sent a letter to the esrb and they replied. I believe that you should at least give it another shot by sending a letter to the esrb explaining that since they know that the consoles do not accept games with the AO rating that they are violating our amendment right. This goes to prove that out of all the other situations that the esrb is the main reason why we cannot have our amendment right to play the full versions of these games.

SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE ABOUT THE ESRB SO WE CAN PLAY THE FULL VERSIONS OF GAMES LIKE MANHUNT 2 IN THE FUTURE

@ Rockstar Games- incase any of the staff goes to this site

Being a fan of your games I feel let down because you did not really step up against the esrb when they were violating your amendment right by basically banning your complete version of your game when they know that the consoles do not allow AO rated games.

YOU NEED TO STEP UP TO THE ESRB AND CHALLENGE THEM WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR RIGHTS TO HAVE NONSEXUAL SCENES IN YOUR GAME. YOU WILL REALLY MAKE YOUR FANS PROUD THAT YOU STEPPED UP AGAINST THIS KIND OF NONSENSE.

I can see removal of the castration kill as that was the most controversial bit, but making it so you can't see the kills (by blur rather than camera tricks, no less) sounds like it going way too far, especially when you look at the M-rated Tenchu and BloodRayne series.

"Dude no one is taking away your rights to do anything. Console makers have the right to refuse content on their machines."


Just as we have the right to not buy their censored game and show them we will not abide by them knuckling under to whiny parent groups, fear mongering politicians, and hearse chasing lawyers.

@Erik
Kind of takes some wind out of the opinion of Jack and yapping watch dog organizations that the rating was changed arbitrarily doesn’t it?

When has anything that Jack said been about the facts???
The wind coming from Jack will be the same as always foul smelling...

Seriously name the one time that he didn't lie about statistics or studys, I can't seem to find one...

Y'know, I'm sick of people blaming the ESRB. Cause y'know what, it's not their fault, it's Rockstar's. THEY are the ones who made the game, and it was them who had to make it so damn violent. While yes, there is indeed an issue with the AO rating, is it really the ESRB, or the retailers and game companies (Nintendo and Sony)?

After hearing the stuff in Manhunt 2, like ripping someone's ball off, I think it deserves the rating it originally got! The ESRB did what it is supposed to do; rate it. It is not THEIR fault Nintendo and Sony wouldn't license it, nor was it their fault that Wal-Mart, Best Buy, etc, wouldn't stock the game.

Personally, I think we should merge M and AO into a singular rating, but bitching about how evil the ESRB is is just so stupid. They don't make the decisions for the companies and retailers.

@erik

A better idea, will be to tell rockstar how much we would go out of our way to get the uncensored version of Manhunt 2 if it were made available. Not buying Manhunt 2 in hopes of an uncensored version coming won't do that. Anyway there's not much they could do, if the wanted the game on PS2 or wii they have to censor it, end of story. Now they could put pressure on nintendo and story to allow future Ao games on their systems, but that's another story.

[...] (Sources: GamePolitics, IGN) [...]

@Father Time

Where is it said that it is for porn games only? Tell me that. Nowhere. Nowhere does it say AO ratings are strictly for games with sex. Nor is Manhunt 2 the first game to get an AO rating due to violence.

"You cannot convince me that ANYONE could make a game (or a movie or a book) so violent that your average 17 year old can’t handle it, and I think we can agree on that."

No. We don't. What is average? There isn't any, really; this isn't something you can simply put into a nice, clean, compact demographic. My father can barely take the movie, Saw (partly because he's seen stuff like; he used to work in a hospital's psyche ward, and there were people how had done some pretty brutal things to themselves for whatever reason). There are scenes in books by Stephen King that made me gag (Misery comes to mind, cause I was in class).

They did their job. It's not the ESRB who decided the "general population of 17 year olds can’t handle the game and have thus failed at giving it a proper rating." Because that's not the rating means; it's a guideline, not something set in stone. It's the retailers who decided that. Because THEY were the ones who decided not to stock it, it was Nintendo and Sony because they refused to license it. And what about the ESA? What did they do to help the situation?

To the people that replied to me I get what you are saying about other issues that involve this kind of game.

The consoles should allow games that got rated AO like Manhunt 2 to be on their system while other AO rated games that have to do with sex and rape they could reject.

The reason why I was directing my anger towards the esrb is because they knew that the consoles would not allow AO rated games and gave Manhunt 2 the AO rating for violence by which us gamers have to keep in mind that we cant expect the extreme. Like a horror game for example, knowing that the esrb is the way it is, you cannot expect to see scenes to be that graphically violent because the esrb would threaten the game company with the AO rating.

That was the point that I was trying to make.

I honestly don't know wether this is indeed "unfortunate". But if, as one of the earlier posts argued, violence is a reward system to this game, then something really is wrong.

NEVER use the term "Ultra-violence" in journalism.

NEVER.

THe simple fact that R* changed its game to satisfy popular morality is enough to ensure that I will not reward them. Sorry lads, you really disappointed me here.

I'll buy the uncut or AO version when it comes out.

The Postal games are sold mainly through the company's website. Not many retailers stocked Postal or Postal 2. They sell their game through their site. Maybe TT can do the same with the AO version of Manhunt 2.

@mutantemeco
I know why…Wii.

The Wii is the scourge of the gaming industry at the moment. I can’t wait until this motion sensing fad is over. I cannot wait……

Oh, please. The Wii is one of the greatest things to happen to gaming. Nintendo took a truly unique concept within the world of console gaming and ran with it, and it has challenged designers, and given them opportunities, in ways previously unavailable. That is GOOD.

Laying the blame for the overzealous censorship campaigns by vote-grabbing senators and morally bankrupt sensationalist lawyers on the Wii, all because Nintendo has a more family-friendly stance than you'd like it to, is idiotic at best. Nintendo should be commended, in my opinion, for managing better than anyone else out there to create games that are unique and entertaining without resorting to excessive violence, gore, and sexual content.

Seriously, how many consoles are out there that can be reasonably justified purchases all for only one game? Only ones that come to my mind are the N64 and Gamecube. Those systems were both worth purchases, hands down, even if the only title you ever owned was Smash Brothers. That is a damned impressive accomplishment in this industry.

@mutantemeco
I know why…Wii.

The Wii is the scourge of the gaming industry at the moment. I can’t wait until this motion sensing fad is over. I cannot wait……



Agreed!! I played the Wii a few weeks ago. The graphics are straight out of the N64 era and the motion control thing, while cool at first, will become pretty boring. However, my GF and her non gaming buddy LOVED it.

Perhaps this says something. Not everyone needs a PS3, but I do!

"by removing the death scenes in manhunt 2 you pretty much destroy the game for what it is."

And that's why I go for games with, um, what is known as "plot."

Anyone who puts Manhunt 2 in the 'mainstream' category of videogames really isn't being fair to the diversity of the market. M titles make up a fraction of the total games passed through the ESRB and sold on shelves for any system. I have spelled out the stats before on GP, so go load the ESRB ratings data and calculate it yourself. An M game is not generally a mainstream title, although a lot of gamers may in fact buy it. The sheer numbers of games being released across the various platforms render games from Rockstar and other developers that are overly violent a small dollop in the bucket of consumption. I don't deny that they invoke discourse and get the attention of many people however.

So, the argument some have on these games being all over the place and damaging our children is as weak as comparing this game to 'mainstream' movies. The numbers will show that games far less content-questionable float about children, except when parents and others fail to do their jobs. When you give into a child or fail to set up a situation in which a child avoids the content themselves in your absence, you are further shackling all of our choices. Moral bigots and hypocrites use the negative (or even false) sides of everything to curb what we all can choose.

What exactly is a mainstream movie? You have theatrical releases, direct-to-video releases, download-only films, and more. The ratings range across the board in theaters but fairly popular movies that could be seen as mainstream due to consumption then hit DVD and go Unrated to cash in and give viewers more of what the director wanted to put (but couldn't) in theaters. This re-rating merely shows how biased the systems are that dispense our media and how much the consumer is a bloody idiot. It underscores how little we care about things making sense and how much we follow regulations and rules set forth according to nonsense.

Humans are drawn to things that horrify or shock us. There is some part of that in everyone. No matter how much we curse at rubberneckers in traffic pileups, we still throw a glance to be let in on the secret. The taboo subjects in society draw our attention even if we don't become their devotee. We know sex sells. We know blood sells. Watching a horror movie doesn't make most of us think of acting it out, but we get a rush of excitement as the hero, anti-hero, or bad guy build up the story's drama, and web of possible endings. Videogames of that genre are the same sort of thing for some people. You watch a war movie to see the enemy pegged down and some justice to pan out. You pick up the controller and snipe some enemy soldiers across a smoke-filled battlefield.

There is nothing overtly wrong with any content in moderation given it find the target audience and not others. It is important that the content not convey symbols and values that fail to be understood by the viewer. Manhunt 2 in a toddler's hands proves the point. This is not the reason the game was made, nor can the child understand. This brings out the real issue behind all these laws and bickering tangents by the peanut gallery: not everyone has the same notion of what values are valid. The sacred and the profane differs widely between people. Instead of having the freedom to have expression in society we have moral Nazis who seek to push their weight of beliefs upon all of us. Nintendo and Sony pander to these people in order to not rock the boat and cash out on all of us, but in the end society is the loser. We are all bought and sold, but there is no refund.

Yes there is a line of expression when it becomes harmful, but where is it? Is having a movie where the context makes it a positive thing to de-nut a fella fine in one instance (movie) but horribly offensive in another (videogame)? That is called hypocrisy. Pulling off someone's testicles is always criminal if you do it intentionally or with malice in the real world. It should always remain to be. No one will ever get away with the act in self defense unless circumstances proved there was no other escape. So such atrocities happen (or can be envisioned), and thus is fodder for fiction writers, movie makers, and game developers alike. Or it should be anyways. If you don't want to see it, don't buy it. That is how capitalism works.

Rockstar is no different than Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, or any other game developer, movie studio, or television network. They want massive sales (consumers of their product) and profits. The difference is in the way the public views their controversies and whether or not we agree with their public and private decisions. Would MTV really have steered away from actually playing MUSIC if they didn't find themselves making money off lame reality television? Would Dateline NBC really be working with law enforcement to entrap losers who should be castrated if their smut didn't sell? It isn't stopping the losers from preying on children online. They get their 5 minutes of fame now. They would be doing far more to raise consciousness into the problems of abuse by investing time in stories about a myriad of family issues we run away from and know less about, and human relief stories to bring about donations and volunteers to worthy relief projects around the country. It's a business, not a public service sadly. Hypocrisy is for sale on every shelf and corner my friends.

@Lumi

I concur. People simply hate the WII cause its from nintendo. Then they do simlar things to the poltictions (Wii = kids game) Then also cause the Wii isnt the powerhouse of graphical eye sex of the PS3 or Xbox360 they hate it.

I do not think that the motion sensing will go away. Infact it will only get bigger. Its like the rumble feature. Remember way back when, there wasnt a rumble feature? Until the playstation or someone had it, we didnt have rumble. We got along just fine without it. Now almost every game uses force feedback some how for systems. (not all of them, but a good number i play use it.) And we still continue to use it.

The functions of motion control will get bigger. Just like the number of buttons on the controller increases every generation. Remember back when we only had 1 2 axis pad, a start, select, A and B buttons?

Now we have controlers with a pad that hs like 8 axis, plus two anolog joysticks, start, select, X O Square and Triangle, L1, L2, R1, R2, turbo and all sorts of sheit.

@Picho

"Its like the rumble feature"

It is exactly like the rumble feature, gamers got tired of it. Now its nearly gone. Most gamers I've spoken with in person say they were getting tired of the uselessness and excessiveness of the rumbling feature in say like FPS games.

@ Mutantemeco:

"Well in the Manhunt 2 arena and the Mature games market Nintendo(Along with Sony and Take Two) failed miserably. When it came to promotion and development of Manhunt 2 Nintendo should of not been in involved. With the release of manhunt2 and the Wii’s mainstream appeal alot of political mumbo jumbo was involved."

I don't get this. What was stopping R* from saying "ok, we have a slightly more watered down version for the Wii, and then we have the unchanged version for the PS360"?

If the answer is "because the unrated version is AO and it's Nintendo's fault no one is willing to have AO on their console"...that's honestly BS.

What political mumbo-jumbo? What did Nintendo do to harm this game?

@ E. Zachary Knight

AO rating or not, the fact remains that Americans get more worked up over sex than violence. And THAT is why the removal of Manhunt 2's blur would not cause the same uproar that Hot Coffee did.

[...] Champions ‘07 WHAT?! Guh my back hurts, i.e. random thoughts of the day. » Spooky Time October 30, 2007 So tomorrow is Halloween. And with it, another controversial Rockstar game. Youknow I gotta give these guys a lot of credit for having the thick skin they do (for the most part). Rumors say Manhunt 2 is 99% what it was before… although that’s obviously not quite good enough. GameSpy has apparently given the game a mediocre rating. Guess those fade-out deaths really just sugarcoat the game, which is what I was afraid of. What irritates me, however, is how little the anti-game critics know about the game itself. For example, they continue to say that it is unknown what Rockstar did to tone down the game. As they say on 4chan, lurk moar. The answers are all there. No more testicles being chopped off. An unsatisfying blur and darkening effect on deaths. And this information was released a month and a half ago. [...]