IGN: How Rockstar Toned Down Manhunt 2 for an M Rating
IGN: How Rockstar Toned Down Manhunt 2 for an M Rating
September 12, 2007
IGN's Matt Cassamina has what appears to be an exclusive look at the M-rated version of Manhunt 2.Readers may recall that Cassamina was also the source on the oft-cited testicle-ripping scene that likely contributed to the game's original AO rating in the United States as well as its complete ban from British shores.
So what's different? How did Manhunt 2 downsize its ultra-violence to earn an M rating? According to Cassamina:
We recently had the chance to play the now-M-rated build of the game, and while it's mechanically identical to its earlier self, some cosmetic differences have been introduced... Indeed, the majority of main gameplay functions are intact, violence, gore and all...
But there have been some unfortunate content omissions, too. When we first wrote about Manhunt 2, we referenced a particularly nasty death sequence, in which [character] Danny could use a pair of pliers to literally rip the testicles off a hunter. That murder has been completely removed from the updated build of the game...
The biggest and most disappointing change relates to the major death strikes... In the M-rated version, Rockstar has added both an extreme blur effect and in most cases darkened the graphics so that it is nearly impossible to make any sense of what is going on... a garbled, motiony mess that's far less satisfying...
Rockstar's title may have dropped the AO label and toned down the presentation of death strikes for an M rating, but this blood-soaked effort is still one of the grossest and most disturbing titles we've ever seen.
GP: We're running a poll in the right sidebar, so be sure and tell us whether you plan to buy the M-rated version of Manhunt 2.
Comments
Grindhouse had a guy whose nuts decompose and fall off on screen.
Pretty sure another guy had hits balls shot off or something. Can't remember that one, though.
there’s going to be one guy who’ll find the blur code and will remove it.
Wouldn't surprise me. Code that is that easy to plug in would be relatively easy to remove too.
And then it's Hot Coffee all over again...
At least thq had the decency to release a unrated/uncensored patch for the pc version of the punisher ;3
Oy, that was a bad one.
I realize that many of you are upset that Rockstar took this route, however the long term survival of the industry is the more important issue. The console manufacturers won't liscense AO rated games and none of the major retailers would carry games with that ratings.
Personally I'm sickened by this game and have no plans to buy it. All it is, is controversy for the sake of controversy. Well its also Rockstar being stupid but that's just my opinion.
It sickens me, and I'm not speaking for him, for that very reason. It's disturbing, like guro (hentai that involves mutilation and excessive gore). While I don't like it, though, I'd still support the rights of people. But that doesn't mean I'll support the game itself, because I feel it was, as he said, made simply for "controversy for the sake of controversy," which can be both good and bad, depending on the context; in this case, I think it's bad. While it does raise issue about the AO rating, overall, I don't think it is worth it, and only hurts more than helps.
"whatever floats your boat"
Of course, for game violence, my speed is really more Prince of Persia, too, so it's possible that I'm just not on the same standards as folks.
The current one is especially bad, though many others often exhibit these traits:
"Given what you know about the changes Rockstar made to the game, will you be buying Manhunt 2?"
- I'm Buying
- No Way
- Not Sure
The wording of the question is specifically discussing it as if the decision to buy the game is affected by the changes currently made to Manhunt 2. These answers are directly interpreted as:
- Yes, I'm buying it despite the changes.
- No, I'm not buying it because of the changes.
- Not sure if the changes will affect my decision to buy Manhunt.
In other words, the answers assume that we were already going to buy Manhunt 2. What about those of us who have no interest at all in the game? We're not represented in the poll.
While I know that internet polls aren't really "official", polls written with this sort of bias help feed the common misconception that we're all frenzied in anticipation for the next Rockstar bloodfest, when I say "No Way" it will be interpreted by the pixel-anti and gamercore alike as being another vote toward "See R*, you shouldn't have censored it!" when my actual reaction is "I don't give two shits about this game."
If it was just this one poll I wouldn't feel the need to comment, but more often than not the polls on GP give me this same impression. I always want to put my vote in on the poll, until I realize that my vote will be biased toward the opinions of the person who created the poll. So usually I just look at the results and wonder "How many of these people actually meant what they said here, and how many just didn't read the poll closely enough?"
Enough ranting, carry on with the otherwise good work. :)
Its art, I may not like to see guys balls get riped of but if mainstream movies like sin city can do it then why not games?
As Nekowolf said, the AO rating was not originally intended to be reserved for sexually explicit games. The fact is, and I think we all can agree on this, the point where you cross the line in sexual content is much clearer than it is with violence.
Retailers, console makers, and the ESRB...of all of them, the ESRB deserves the least blame for the unavailability of AO games. Yes, they can indirectly control what gets released as we have seen with Manhunt 2, but anyone who claims that the ESRB is doing it deliberately, ask yourself this: WHY? WHAT'S IN IT FOR THEM? And spare me the old, "it gets the watchdog groups off their backs" argument. Anyone with half a brain knows those idiots can never be placated, and I feel confident saying that the ESRB knows it as well.
And then, in turn, how long until the crack hits the mainstream media, kinda like how the mod to get 'topless' females in Oblivion did. If R* aren't careful about how they implement this they'd be setting up for another media explosion just like they did with Hot Coffee!
You are absolutely right about challenging developers. Challenging them by restricting them to some tired and terrible fad. Why release a non-motion sensing Wii game? It just wouldn't work due Nintendo's zaniness developers are restricted to Nintendo's vision when it comes to hardware output. Kind of like the vision that ESRB,Sony,and Nintendo had of what Manhunt 2 should be. Rockstar is to blame as well. Why focus on releasing Manhunt 2 for the kiddie-biddie Wii? If Mh2 were to only come out for Sony systems we'd never be having these discussions. Completely under the radar just like the first game. WHICH HAS NEARLY IDENTICAL CONTENT WITH THE SEQUEL. Only difference like with ALL sequels is the fact we get added features, more levels, gameplay adjustments. Shit, the graphics are almost the same as Manhunt 1.
I don't know what to say. Having both played and developed on the Wii, the DS, and on other non-Nintendo consoles, I have to say that there's more than enough diversity in the motion control arena to produce a huge library of unique and fun games. Nintendo simply isn't hurting anyone with this.
Most any gamer playing that would cringe and look away as they accidentally activate something like that. Doesn't sound like something to be 'enjoyed' any more.
So why should the game get lower sales from the toning down of a non game play element? If people aren't going to buy the game anymore because of the toning down of this element then they were buying the game for the wrong reason anyway.
Lastly, before anyone drops the "freedom of expression" line, show me a mainstream movie where a man removes another mans "kenobis" with a pair of pliers and it's fully shown on camera (and it has to be mainstream).
It's not necessary, it's entirely optional. Which each weapon you are given three levels of kill; hasty, violent and gruesome. The castration move would almost certainly have been classed as gruesome, so anyone pulling off that move would have some idea of the level of gore they were about to see.
Besides, most of us manhunt fans were looking forward to that move. Ah well.
@ Rob
I can't find anything completely matching your criteria, but the scene at the end of Sin City when Det. Hartigan pulls off Juniors testicals with his bare hands then beats him till he's dead comes pretty close. Fairly mainstream movie as well.
Pun intended?
/b
Why? The game still plays exactly the same. No game play mechanics were removed.
Does THIS satisfy Yee and the Parent's Television Council? It tells them what was dropped after all.
And think of the uproar then. Still, 2d sprites in an arcade figther. A very different game to Manhunt 2.
Sounds like it was a combination of two of the scenarios Andrew Eisen predicted.
@Erik
Kind of takes some wind out of the opinion of Jack and yapping watch dog organizations that the rating was changed arbitrarily doesn’t it?
Nah, they'll just latch on to that "still the goriest game ever" comment as "proof" that the ESRB is morally bankrupt.
So animation bad, real good... I see how the mind of the censors work. If Manhunt 2 used real actors then it would be fine.
Back in the day, the original Tenchu on the PS1 gave players very satisfying death cut scenes as rewards for effective stealth kills. I agree that those cuts scenes are not 'mechanically' important to the game play. However I disagree that they are not emotionally important to the game experience.
Adding filters to a cut scene breaks the player out of the moment / reality, and that reality is the entire draw for a game such as this. Frankly, why else would you play a game like this other than wanting to experience something that you would never do (unless you are an idiot) in real life? I mean this is rockstar, it's not like they have Ubisoft's record for tight controls / rewarding stealth action. It's on the PS2 as well, so it's not like you're getting astounding graphics either.
So I have to say, making a blurry muddy mess of the super death kills does hurt the game. It breaks the fantasy, it takes away a game play reward, and don't even get me started on how candy-coated violence (glorified killing, vs cold factual murder) seems like a worse idea in the first place...
but how does this sort of game appeal to anyone?
Appeals to fans of movies like Saw III I imagine, or some other disturbing movie. Sometimes it's fun to walk on the dark side. Stuff like that would get you arrested in real life...
And I'll retort that the most gory, sick game ever (that I played as a youngin) is the arcade game Chiller.
Boogie Nights was rated R.
In my strange little world games are meant to be about GAMEPLAY, so why anyone would have a problem with Manhunt 2 being released with the gameplay and story being kept intact, but the gory executions being a little blurry or dark?
@Sammy, I hear the same thing happened in another game, blur code was removed or something. No media outcry though; This time it is likely to happen.
"And I’ll retort that the most gory, sick game ever (that I played as a youngin) is the arcade game Chiller."
hahahaha, that game was hillarious xD
it beats the shit out of manhunt for the gratuitous violence though. x3;;
I think that was the punisher. the pc version had its share of uncensored trainers and cracks, and most of them didn't work properly. that was before the uncensored patch from thq though.
On the other hand if they are simply digital overlays in the code, then it is possible but not likely considering R* probably does not want a repeat of hot coffee.
Story? You Sir have obviously never played the original.
Oooor he just came away with a different experience with it.
there’s going to be one guy who’ll find the blur code and will remove it.
Wouldn’t surprise me. Code that is that easy to plug in would be relatively easy to remove too.
And then it’s Hot Coffee all over again…
If the blur were applied to the video, and then it were re-rendered and captured with the filter in effect, then there would effectively be no way to un-blur it.
If the original footage is in there and they're just applying the blur filter during run-time, then it could be disabled.
So, is the stuff that's getting blurred all pre-determined footage, or is it something that is based on the gameplay at the time of the kill scene?
The scenes were done in-game with the character models as to have the right background scenes. Nothing pre-rendered.
Apparently. I wasn't actually a fan of the original, I don't know exactly how far I got, but I didn't bother to finish it. This one didn't really strike my fancy either, I was just hoping R* would say fuckit and release the game as is, with no ESRB tag. Y'know, like the film industry. If 'Shortbus' can get mainstream acknowledgments, then Manhunt 2 should let you graphically rape the hunters to death. It's all about the double standard.
Lol^^ You've caught me out... Manhunt has always been as appealing to me as dipping my nuts in a jar of angry bees.
Well, that sadly brings up the other problem in regards to censoship of gaming..the hardware companies. Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft all have the ability to block certain ratings of games on a console to protect children or what not, but then they go and will not allow anything beyond an M rating on there system. So if they tried to release the game as an "unrated" version, the companies would be suing them left and right as well as probably killing there chances to publish any other games with them.
Good point. However I would argue that the scene is contextual to the story. Yellow Bastard is a paedophile rapist so Hartigan removing his "weapon" as he calls it makes sense as part of the movie. Now admittedly I don't know MH2 at all, but my impression is that if you have the right weapon you can pull off the stealth kills as long as you are skilful enough. Also I don't know the context in which the pliers kill is performed, but I doubt it's connected to the storyline. As for the Grindhouse movies, I've not seen them so I couldn't comment on their graphicness.
I'm thinking strictly PC of course. They should just go console with an ESRBi (outdated terminology, but hear me out) M-Tag, and then patch the game to the AO version. For all I know, that's the plan, (not bloody likely) but even if this were the case, I don't see myself ever buying the game, unless it's a Christmas present for someone I don't like.
This whole situation just stinks. Like I've said before, I'll buy a copy of the game just to help Take2 with my miniscule $60.00. They can have my cash and use it to make more games they choose to develop, regardless of the intended audience, and regardless of parent's ability to discern what their kids are playing.
Ok, gotcha :)
Anybody see the irony in a game being partially neutered...by removing the ability to neuter? Sorry, just wanted to point that out.
If the blur were applied to the video
If it was FMV, then yeah, the blur wouldn't be removable.
I suppose I'm working under the assumption that the "kill scene" that the blur is applied to is a game-engine cutscene through a Gaussian filter, sort of like what they pioneered in Stubbs the Zombie and other games.
Are we to believe that R* would do something so easily cicumvented? Why would they do that when they go into so much trouble for removing access to a part of a previous game. If they are simply assuming that they are using the code to blur the scenes, then they are failing once again. If that is whatthey are doing, then did the truly remove the castration scene or did the just remove access to it like they did with hot coffe?
Like they ignore the fact that it doesn't matter if a child does buy an M or AO rated game. As if they took five minutes out of their day to set the parental controls on the wii/360/PS3 the child will not be able to play said purchased game at all, thus rendering this a null issue?
Like the old Genesis MK.
Are we to believe that R* would do something so easily cicumvented?
Doing something more "integrated" would be much more time consuming, unless they foresaw this, and "prepared" it in advance, just in case. I'm also assuming that you'd need to do this on the PC, I doubt you just just "turn it off" on the PS2 version as easily.
If that is whatthey are doing, then did the truly remove the castration scene or did the just remove access to it like they did with hot coffe?
A simple removal of some more file links would make the castration scene un-usable even if it were unlocked (perhaps some kind of runtime linkage so that if it does get unlocked, it crashes instead of running). Hot Coffee still had all it's code intact, but access was removed.
Here's a good website depicting what the blur might look like if cranked up:
http://harkal.sylphis3d.com/2006/05/20/how-to-do-good-bloom-for-hdr-rend...
It's kind of a Guassian blur used to create a bloom effect, only with an extreme blur.
Ah, here's an example of a game engine using it. Valve's Source engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_engine#Full-screen_motion_blur
Meh, I bought Manhunt almost two years ago and lost interest about three hours in.
Of course, thats if the BBFC decide to let it come out in my damn country... (if not i guess i could import the PSP version......)
"A simple removal of some more file links would make the castration scene un-usable even if it were unlocked (perhaps some kind of runtime linkage so that if it does get unlocked, it crashes instead of running). Hot Coffee still had all it’s code intact, but access was removed."
Rule 1 of Hackers: If the code is there, they'll find a way to access it.
-P
Problem is with no rating it would be restricted to PC only still
The Wii is the scourge of the gaming industry at the moment. I can't wait until this motion sensing fad is over. I cannot wait......
Remember Grand Theft Auto III? There was a code in that game which allowed dismemberment with a sniper rifle. You could pop someone's head, or blow there arms and legs off. That one went pretty much unnoticed, and was put there by Rockstar, to boot.
Now you look at Hot Coffee, a game that may have been placed there by Rockstar, but had been disabled so no one could find it, until someone restored the code to play it. Caused a huge uproar who's ramifications are still being felt today.
Now what, I ask you, is the difference between these two codes? Answer: One boosts the violence, the other boosts the sexual content. And there you have it.
Americans, by and large, have always bitched more about sexual content than violence in ANY media (not just games). Just like a line from the South Park episode, "Fun Time with Weapons" said, "I guess parents don't care about violence when there's sex stuff to worry about." As usual, Matt Stone and Trey Parker get it better than anyone else.
And that's why the removal of the Manhunt 2 blur would probably slide under the radar for most people.
As an aside, we live in a sick world where people will complain more about Carl Johnson having consensual sex with his girlfriend, but will ignore the fact that he had beat, shoot, and kill her. Both scenarios, incidentally, were 100% optional!
We need edit buttons already!
Great thanks a F***ing lot rockstar now im not even sure if i'll buy this game now...and dammit i wanted to be able to do that kill to Hilary duff's "sweet sixteen"
Damn Moronic Idotic anti gamers go find an actual hobby and shut the hell up already
This is different though. This violence they are blurring is the reason it got that AO rating in the first place. If the blur could be removed, then it would be like them releasing the AO version under the guise of M. This would cause big problems that GTA III did not have as that violence only got it an M rating.
Are you seriously saying that the only reason you were going to buy this game is to see some guy get his nuts ripped off? What a waste of $50.
Seriously, if you are THAT free with your money please send me $50 so I can buy a copy of Skate tomorrow.
Thanks in advance,
Joe
Make the executions a dark, blurry mess? Well... I'll still live, but I don't think I'll be buying this game anymore. I suppose I could cancel the preorder and put the money toward other games.
As for you buying skate im sorry i just feel that the game is not appropriate for someone of your age bracket..how about hello kitty island adventure??
then a psp.
then the import, uncensored game.
period.
Rule 1 of Hackers: If the code is there, they’ll find a way to access it.
well yes, but if it's unstable code that crashes every time you load it, then accessing it becomes pointless, yes? adding in "return to main menu" command in the code would also make it unusable, and even better, there wouldn't be a flag you could memory hack.
How are you "sickenend" by the game???
The same way someone can be "sickened" by a horror film. *shrug* It's just not for everyone.
If I had to name any one thing about it, it would be the torturous ways in which you can kill people and the callous nature of it in general. Unlike some other games in which you kill your enemies, namely Resident Evil, the killing is ancillary to the goal. There's also the fact that often the enemies in those games are either posessed or are zombies of some sort. The entire point of Manhunt 2 is murder. Brutal, sadistic murder and quite frankly I think it was a bad idea to make it.
"well yes, but if it’s unstable code that crashes every time you load it, then accessing it becomes pointless, yes?"
Hey, I'm not saying it's be easily accessible, or stable. Just that Rockstar it'd be accessible somehow.
-P
"Rockstar is deluding themselves if they think breaking links will keep people from accessing it. It doesn't matter if it's stable, people will still want it".
There.
-P
Rockstar is deluding themselves if they think breaking links will keep people from accessing it. It doesn’t matter if it’s stable, people will still want it
But if it's unstable, then accessing it is useless, as it will crash the game before you get to see anything. It's quite easy to do actually. You just link to one version of a library, and then insert the other version in the final build. The game compiles normally, and runs fine, *until* it hits that scene. The symbols don't match at runtime, and down the game goes for a PS2 equivalent of BSOD...
And hacking it won't help unless you've got the original library file to insert. You can't just memory hack to reset a flag.
"I’ve never seen the funny in testicle attack."
Guess there some who want more thrill than the usual football to the groin sketch. ;)
I LOLed reading that comment considering the context in which it was being used, yeah... :P
@myrpok:
But Grindhouse is a movie, not a videogame so it's OK. *eyeroll*
i would like to see a video of the blurred kills -maybe they still look cool or are still a gratifying pay-off for the effort(?) -if everything else is there, it sounds good to me
sounds like they found a good solution that doesn't compromise the game too much
(2)also...
it's ironic that one of the first things senator yee or anyone on the "anit-manhunt" side of the controversy will say is that the game has "castration with pliers".... which immediately causes the listener to try to picture that image... how many people, who never had the intention of ever playing the game or who don't even know what manhunt 2 is, have watched or read news coverage of the MH2 stuff and have heard this description and then pictured the image of the pliers scene?
1 kill out of many in the game... doesn't seem like a big deal... it's not like rockstar advertises this particular kill -or puts in the trailer... in the game, it probably wasn't even that detailed (some rendered polygons are less vivid than what someone's imagination can produce)
...i'm saying that more damage has been done by the coverage of the controversy than by the game
(3)a few people metioned a mod... i think that they'll cover their asses and render the effects with game video in real-time or else make it difficult to seperate the effects programmatically
(4)it's really not that gory and sick if you compare it to a lot of other games -it's just presented a little differently... like maybe violence in Medal of Honor or Gears of War is in a more comic-book and fantasy style -it's the same violence