...... They are, of course, aware that you are not forced to buy every single game that's out for a system?

The wii is not JUST for family games.

Fools.

@ Passive, ignorant, slaves of the post-modern tradition

Values? Morals? Yeah, I got some morals and values for you: there are no objective morals and values. I'm sorry if most of you are so fixuated on the painfully obvious normative issue -- "religious morons are attacking X right, let us simply question their right to such" -- that you completely ignore the philosophical and intellectual arguements that serve as the foundation of a much larger problem.

Namely, critics of media freedom [this is applicable to nearly all forms: need I remind you of film censorship boards and the comic booker sticker committes?] derive their dissent by pointing out how "morally corrupt" media deviates from a ficticious, genocidal, and false interpretation of bronze age superstition. I am wise enough to realize that the debate should be shifted towards debunking the myths that justify anti-gaming legislation and censorship efforts. At the very least, I strive to show Christians, Jews, and Muslims that their submission to a genocidal, child killing, rape endorsing, murderous, ethnocidal, contradictory, evidenceless, impotent, and objectively evil "God" contains the same fallicious reasoning that they cite against video games. By worshipping such a Lord of Murder, these sick and intellectually pathetic individuals have no valid platform to critique the freedom of media on moral grounds.

"Congrats. You’ve just fessed up to every single one of my points of critcism: you worship an evil, child-murdering, genocidal dictator, and have become so deluded in the illusion of this belief that you reverse BASIC VALUES (which exist in contrary) to justify the murderous and insane behavior of the most brutual object of fiction in history."


Much as Jack Thompson you have just twisted what was said to fit your twisted belief. What, should we instead worship a sniveling wuss of a God who would just sit back and say "please. please stop doing that guys ok?" No, sorry, not going to happen. Yeah, God has a bit more backbone than that.

“A loving parent?” Lol. Okay, tell that to a court if a murderer drowns their child and then spends the next of their mortal life torturing the corpse."

Earthly parents dish out punishment of an earthly kind, spankings and the like. For a higher trespasses a more stiff punishment is needed.


Also yes, the bible does have the "dark God of murder". He is known as Satan, and originally Lucifer. He commands people to kill without remorse and to commit unspeakable acts.

Where did they get their numbers on console sales? They seem to be missing a solid 10 million consoles between the 3. I'm hesitant to read further if they can't even get their data straight.

@DeusPayne

I assume they're talking about the U.S. numbers.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes that Manhunt 2 deserves to be on the Wii. I agree with Jesse Young--no one's forcing all these casuals to buy the game. The only thing that semi-bothers me about video games getting wider acceptance is the mainstream press's coverage of it. Is Halo 3 really the "thinking man's" first person shooter, according to Time's cover? I mean, I guess it works out when they cover Wii's most popular casual games (Wii sports), but when Time tries to do a hardcore turn, it feels... odd.

Stick to your guns, Perrin. Stick to your guns! Video games for everybody, but not everybody has to buy each single one!

@ DuesPayne

Miraba is close to right. What it looks like is they are using US only numbers for consoles sold since November 2006. So the whole year the 360 was out before the Wii is not being counted in the numbers.

As for the article, I read it before and thought I read it here. But they are blowing it out of proportion. Nintendo wants to break away from the "family friendly" console. They want to stay a family friendly software company, but they feel that the Wii should not be branded as such.

They want to expand their market appeal to the hardcore gamers. So they want games like Manhunt 2. Hopefully this strategy works for them, because the most common argument made against the Wii is that it is only for casual gaming and not hardcore gaming.

I've been thinking about this since I first saw it brought up about using the Wiimote for Manhunt 2. I can definitely see the point being made. It is a little disturbing when you think about it. At the same time, I want to play it, but I really feel more strongly about keeping this kind of thing away from kids. I think I have a half-way decent solution though.

Nintendo has the right to demand some conditions for a game to be put out for their console, right? So I say Nintendo should REQUIRE the set-up of parental controls for M-rated games. If they're not set up, the kid can't play the game until they are.

Before I get a flurry of disagreement, I know it's far from perfect. The kid could just set them up. The parents culd be required to obtain a pre-set password, but then again, that relies on very responsible parenting. The best thing I can think of is having to call a support number and have some kind of age verification to obtain the code.

Like I said, I know it's far from perfect. It's a start though. Nintendo is going to end up with a lot of criticism if this issue isn't addressed soon, and then they're going to fall to public pressure. And that doesn't mean from gamers.

-Mike Schwinger

Soccer moms of America, repeat after me:

Video games are not just for children.


I wonder just why we don't hear an outcry of there being R rated movies made for DVD players.

# AgnostoTheo Says:
October 5th, 2007 at 11:45 am

Maybe I’m out of it, but didn’t Nintendo try to throw away it’s “Family-friendly” aspect when it lisensed uncensored version of Mortal Kombat after the Lieberman fiasco? Sure, it’s got more kiddie games than the other systems, but it’s not just a kid’s item anymore.


They released Mortal Kombat 2 and above uncensored.

I would hardly call what's going on an outcry. The disconnect seems to be between what the Wii is intended to be - a console for everyone, including kids, families and mature gamers - and what people label the Wii as - a "kiddie" console.

@Daniel.

Er. Right. That's what I meant. *innocent whistle* Still Same question applied.

@ IanC

Yeah, but Table Tennis sucks.

I wonder what all these uninsightful, uninformed people would say if they went to Japan and saw tons of adults buying video games for THEMSELVES.

Just force these individuals who think video games are exclusively for kids, to sit down and watch some scenery from a number of stores in Akihabara for 30 seconds or so and see what their reactions would be.

@ gs2005

That's going to happen eventually. We're still watching a new medium come into its own while battling a strong establishment. In Japan games (and anime, for that matter) were emerging alongside TV and Movies as cultural equals rather then as the late-to-the-party upstarts that they are here.

Yeah, just to mirror a few comments already made and to clarify others:

1) Videogames are not just for kids, Neilsen ratings and other research suggest that a MAJORITY of games are over 18.

2) Nintendo don't want the "kiddie-friendly" tag. It hurt them severely in the GameCube days (when PS2 had GTA:SA, XBox had Halo and GC had... Mario?).

3) The Wii is for *everyone*. Nobody has to buy all the games available. There are those people who are offended by loud, colourful kiddie games like MySims and Rayman, just as there are those who resent sex and violence.

4) If parents are offended, they should be making the decisions. The rating on games are clear and easy to understand. If a game is rated M, don't buy it for your 8 year old! You're not offended by the fact that the same PC your kid uses for schoolwork is capable of playing the latest Saw DVD, why are you offended that a videogame medium can play a non-kiddie game.

And that's it folks. Choice. We live in a free country, where we are free to make our own decisions. I don't want my freedom compromised just because you can't be bothered to monitor what your kids are playing. That's your problem, not mine. If I choose to play Manhunt 2 on the Wii, you have no right to stop me.

oh noes!! diversity in a consoles games!!!

@Iniquus
"I’m saying that it’s wouldn’t take much, relatively speaking, to make it so that M-rated games require the parental controls."

But thats a little overkill if you ask me...

i mean compare it to other media: how annoyed would you be if you were *forced* by your DVD player to input a parental code every time you wanted to watch a non-kiddie DVD even if you have no children?

what is good for movies is good for gaming, theres no reason they should be treated differently.

As always parents need to do parenting, not rely on every piece of electronics to do parenting for them out of the box...

Danky, John Bruce Thompson is too busy being the boy who cried wolf to be trolling at the moment...

@gs2005

He's more lie kthe kid who goes "I wuill kick your ass mofo, I'll own yer sorry punk ass" and then wonders why he got punched.

wELL seeing as how im a converted 360 user i'll prolly wait to play this but hell it doesnt suprise me that people still want to go with the "video games are created for children" idea.....

F***ing Morons

@ koichan

Well as much as I hate to say it, at least in this instance, the mechanics of the game make it different. The fact is, the interactivity does make it affect people more. Now, I don't mean long term, but it does. But that wasn't really my point. The reason I brought it up was the sheer fact that it'll give people one less thing to point at. Not to mention it'll just help with the kid thing.

Oh wait! I figured it out! Make the parents have to take a parenting course in order for their kids to play the game! :D

-Mike Schwinger

"The fact is, the interactivity does make it affect people more"

The fact is that you're wrong, so get over yourself.

@Video game effects verses Movies
It could be that, as much as they try to do it, video game people just don't feel like real people.
It's allot harder to set them up as such without a good deal of work, and it's not like you personally get to kill very many well built characters ,ie. ones who elicit an emotional response of some type.
You're pretty much confined to hordes of random henchmen.
Does anyone really think of nameless guy with a gun #2678 as a real person?

I'd give Reggie a little more credit. Being a PR face is tough, and he's always done a pretty good job at it, so I don't think any ill intent was meant.

I think what happened was that Nintendo liked the idea of having Manhunt 2 on the Wii cause it would help expand its audience and they knew how famous Rockstar is. Unfortunately, Rockstar likes to push the envelope as far as they can until it's pasted across the other guy's face, so when Nintendo took a look at the finished product and rating, they were frankly surprised. They knew it would be graphic, but not THAT graphic. So Reggie's response was likely a kneejerk reaction to it, just like how most people have a kneejerk reaction to perceived racism these days regardless of intent or irony.

@Iniquus
“the fact is, the interactivity does make it affect people more.”

You've fallen into the exact same frame of mind as most of the anti-gamer crowd :(

There is NO valid research at all to support this, only the vague very-short-term correlation (note: not causation) studies.

Anyways, if interactivity is bad for children, then all plastic guns, water pistols, toy swords, playfighting and so on should be banned as well as they're more interactive if anything ;)

@ CK20XX:

I won't give them that much credit. The company can either support a title, or they can distance themselves from it. The two statements given are contrary to one another; Nintendo distanced themselves from the title until the ESRB changed the rating. When one reviews the original statements by Fils-Aime, Kaplan's attempt to embrace the title comes off as phony.

@Erik

Thanks, I didn't have to say it this time :P

Anyhow; I really don't care. If Nintendo wants to release it, fine. If not, also fine. It's their choice. Plus it's Manhunt 2, and IMO, not worth fighting over.

monte'
Fact= 80% +, most say its a fact that it dose not apper to effect people because of the interactivity, because science much like religoin tends to function on what the "common belief" is.

If you want to use absolutes, it is fact that interactivity is currently being used as a distractionary move to remove steak from consumers before proof and evidence is shown.

@ Erik

You call me a biggot because I simply posit values EXPLICITLY STATED IN THE BIBLE on a diety, make a causal connection between game censorship and moral justifications; and then simply TIE those values back into the justification to point out a contradiction?

I'm sorry if your religious tradition is so filled with hate, superstition, and fear that you are simply ignorant of the values mentioned above. I suggest you actually read the Bible. I'm not labeling God, or Christians, with any other values than the ones clearly stated in the Christian tradition.

With this in mind, morality that serves as the underlying principle cited for the justification of game censorship is typically (although most definately not in actuality) derived from a naturalistic interpretation of Judeo-Christian divine command theory. I would be a moron to argue from a normative and childish level (ie, only be concerned with questioning the right to enact censorship) instead of attacking the ficticious, backwards, and contradictory moral "norms" that justify the censoring in the first place.

In other words, as I've said before, game supporters like yourself are content with simply swinging at the flailing arms of the beast that is game regulation. I perfer to stab the beast in the heart by attacking its underlying values, assumptions, and ficticious morals.

Perhaps I have been too hard on Christians. Most are simply ignorant, or in denial, of the evil, backward, and superstitious traditions of "faith" (which amounts to little more than a ridiculous valuation device that is not applicable in ANY OTHER aspect of life). I think most people confuse my arguements against Judeo-Christian morals (which are causually responsible, in the most broad and fundamental respects, for game regulation) with attacks on actual Christians. I have sterotyped Christians before, but such sterotypes are generally rare. Most of my critiques attack the evil morals directly.

@Pandralisk

Once again, you ARE truly a Jack Thompson clone. Maybe he's secretly your father. I'm still surprised you're even on this site.

I call you a bigot because you are a bigot. I've had a very similar conversation with a white supremacist. He pointed out explicitly stated facts about African-American crime statistics. Thus trying to prove that he was not racist and rather I was naive. But he was racist and you are a bigot.

Secondly a causal relationship? Do provide evidence if you are going to make such ridiculous statements. Show one instance where a bible jumped off a bookshelf and forced anyone to do anything. The bible has never done a thing. It is PEOPLE, who make the choices. Claiming a causal relationship in this situation is just as bad as Jack claiming that games have a similar ability. Your title as the Jack Thompson of religion is well earned.


And it is also insulting how you keep claming "read the bible!" as though doing so will instantly bring people over to your point of view. The bible is the best selling book of all time. An uncountable number of people have read it and yet you are still in an extremely small minority in your train of thought. I have read it, I still don't agree with you.


And yes. In the bible God has pulled down wrath upon people and nations. Killed off numerous people and blighted others. Any good father, be they earthly or heavenly will discipline unruly children. Looking at the state of humanity it bewilders me why he is as merciful as he is. People are basicly scum, and a meteor hitting the planet and killing off 90% of us is no more than we deserve. But then again I cannot fathom His infinite forgiveness.

As for the "heart of the beast". The heart of the beast is ignorance. At best religion is the appendix. As has been stated to you, and ignored, over and over again Christians do not have the patent on video game law. Many atheists and agnostics also support this law. But you are so blinded by your hate that video games are nothing more than an excuse for you to lash out against that of which you hate.

I will pray for you.

This isn't Nintendo's first Adult game. Are people already forgetting Conker's Bad Fur Day?

"and your telling me that when you stereotype the christians, and attack the very belief system that is behind christians your not attacking the christians? "

Absolutely. I won't lie. I have attacked Christians directly, but only a TINY fraction of the time (which I aptly apologize for). But I will NOT apologize for attacking the ridiculous superstition that they use to justify their morality, which consequently, justifies game censorship. Religion is one of the only subjects where objective, content-oriented, critique spills over onto a group of people; mainly because so many religious people are fanatic, ignorant of their religious tradition.

@Erik.

Congrats. You've just fessed up to every single one of my points of critcism: you worship an evil, child-murdering, genocidal dictator, and have become so deluded in the illusion of this belief that you reverse BASIC VALUES (which exist in contrary) to justify the murderous and insane behavior of the most brutual object of fiction in history.

"A loving parent?" Lol. Okay, tell that to a court if a murderer drowns their child and then spends the next of their mortal life torturing the corpse. Keep worshipping your dark God of Murder: I really do hope you actually enjoy spending time talking to yourself. I doubt that your ficiticious bronze-age, child-murdering, war God has actually ever spoke back to you, =). Isn't it wonderful that your hateful God must forgive people for loving, living peacefully, and using the mental faculty that he supposdely endowed them with? Have fun drowning in your own contradictions.

Also I'll point out Pandralisk that God commanded me to love you. So I shall. And you should thank your lucky stars for that. Because as far as I see it that is the only way a troll like you is going to get any love.

I don't get that article. It's not a cultural fit? Maybe, if you misconstrue the Wii as kiddy, which Nintendo is taking obvious pains to dispel.