October 8, 2007 -
Recently GamePolitics reported on a claim by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman that violent video games were linked to gang activity and a rise in the killing of police officers.Grossman, a longtime critic of violent games, told Time that, for gang members:
The video games are their newspaper, their television, their all-consuming narrative.
Hampton, Virginia Police Chief Chuck Jordan (left) echoed Grossman's view during a recent community meeting on gangs. As reported by the Daily Press:
Jordan had a blunt message for the city's parents at a public forum on youth and gang violence Thursday: Watch everything your kids watch and don't be afraid to pull the plug...
There is clear evidence of a link between violent TV and computer games and gang activity, he said.
"If you constantly get yourself involved in these video competitions, it becomes a way of life," he said.
GP: It's unclear how Chief Jordan arrived at his conclusion regarding the supposed link between video games and gang activity. However, Grossman is a popular speaker on the law enforcement lecture circuit. Also, the Time article appeared shortly before Jordan made his remarks, so perhaps Grossman influenced Jordan.
Comments
How many copies of Halo 3 have been sold? And how many violent shootouts have happened since then? Find the numbers, do the math, and come up with a percentage of Halo players that are violent criminals. After you're done writing the decimal places, consider that your cramping fingers are clear evidence that correlation does not equal causation.
(Note to the rest of us: I realize my "proof" makes little sense, but then neither does most of Jacko's ramblings - I'm just trying to speak his language here.)
He was still approved by the state to carry and use a gun.
Yeah. Because clearly gamers never read a paper, watch the news, or look up anything on the internet. We're all way too busy playing games to do anything else.
In fact, all these responses are automated messages created by the GamePolitics Administration to make gamers look like they actually have the ability to form coherent sentences.
I also believe you can learn to levitate things in the air without having to hold them, something i learned from Half Life 2.
I believe you can learn to pull large mallets out from my ass to smash giant turtles (we know they're everywhere, mario showed us that).
You don't just have to learn skills in video games, you can learn history too like the fact that there are giant hordes of religious aliens coming to slaughter mankind and we're the descendants of an alien race, it has to be true. Video games teach people anything when they play em and I've played Halo.
I also learnt to force animals into tiny homes and sic them on each other in a fight (Pokemon).
Oh no! Just now, i tried to levitate something with my mind and couldnt. Maybe i haven't played half life 2 enough. And i also found out that i can't pull a hammer out of my ass, or force animals into tiny enclosures... could it be the history i've learned from Halo is wrong too?
Wake up fool
.........
FUCK YES!
Finally the proof I have been looking for! MLG causes gang violence! MLG IS THE DEVIL! I CAN FINALLY DESTROY MAJOR LEAGUE GAMING ONCE AND FOR ALL.
Sorry.. yes bullshit. Bad word choice most likely. Still utter bullshit by someone who only understands the issue from one perspective, and doesn't even understand it fully.
Clutching at straws is the term you're after. That and if all police chiefs are sheep, I fear for the safety of the average US citizen.
Idiot.
'criminals like computer games'
to:
'games cause people to become criminals'
i'll never know...
Now if gaming was something that only criminals did he might have a point, but to say this when gaming is about as popular as tv viewing is for most people it gets idiotic.
the 'bread' comment above is spot on! Though maybe it should be extended to milk as well, all criminals must have drank milk at some point in their lives. Damn though violence-inducing cows ;)
http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/10299757.html
Or does he only go on record when it makes him and other pigs look good?
damn typo :)
Anyway, he's old, he shouldn't be driving anymore :/ He'd hit someone and blame it on a video game since they teach you to be a bad driver, and all these "driving simulations" are so confusing for him. :s
1. Make it illegal for RETAILERS to sell mature games/books/films to children. Targeting developers is putting the ass before the cart. This has the benefit of not infringing on freedom of speech
2. Have parents take responsibility for their own children.
3. With 49% of households owning guns, and American society firmly in love with them, your going to have to accept that tragedies are going to happen. Take responsibility for it and STOP LOOKING FOR SCAPEGOATS.
Whilst i agree on the targeting the developers part, i still fail to see how making it illegal helps at all.
(this is from a british citizen, where 18 rated games are enforced by law)
The vast majority of games that end up in the hands of too-young players are brought for them by their parents/relatives. Making it illegal won't change a thing except getting the occasional low-paid store clerk slapped with a huge fine.
As has said time and time again, the responsibility is with the parents, nothing else can help this.
But I suppose that some sections would claim its an admission of guilt, which would be very twisted logic but not all that out of character. Given the American media's questionable reporting, I could well imagine someone jumping on the idea of banning games entirely the next time a teenager cracks under the pressure of their society. I still think that in reality these claims would have even less impact on the mainstream if such a move was adopted.
Lets face we are the mainstream now. It could also be argued that the fact that parents continue to buy mature rated games for their children is because they don't view them as a threat to their safety. Perhaps there isn't great public outcry about games but rather a great lack of public interest in a farcical argument?
The problem is that individually targeting videogames to not be sold to children is just as illegal as targeting any of those other media forms, and contrary to this man's completely out-of-the-blue contention, there is considerably less data connecting video games to violence than there is connecting any one of those other forms of media to violence--and that despite all the recent efforts to demonize games.
Ok, scratch that, the real problem is idiots in positions of authority jumping on video games as the cause to crimes because they don't realize that a ridiculously small percentage of all gamers commit these sort of severe crimes--and don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure there was a study comparing the percentages of non-gamers who commit crimes compared to the percentage of gamers, and there was a statistically significant difference: the non-gamers are much more likely to commit crimes. Do I know this? No, I think I read it in an official government webpage, so I SAY that this is only what I THINK instead of coming across as stating fact.
Do we go around pointing to this type of data as evidence to criminalize NOT gaming? More importantly, do we use our professional positions as platforms through which to make unfounded claims which have no basis in reality or for which we have no conclusive studies? No, because it's downright immoral, and incredibly unprofessional (and, for a cop, a betrayal to those who trust you to be honest and informed about your subjects) to so wrongfully let people THINK that you know what you're talking about.
When a cop or a politician in particular says something like this, the people listening tend to assume they are saying something with the force of law behind it, something which has been conclusively demonstrated to be true, and something that they know a considerable amount about. This man, by making such a claim in the absence of actual evidence or studies, has just done an incredible disservice to the people he was speaking to, and all who will read that quote.
Thank you, Chief Jordan, for misinforming the people who trust you and furthering yet another bias so that even more people come to believe that video games are rare and inexplicable and that anyone who plays them is only a ticking time bomb and the most likely suspect in any crime. Jerk.
A-ha, this is what is known as the Jack Thompson Proof! Just say that there are studies which support your position without giving the name of the study/researcher/where it was conducted and it adds weight to your argument!
As we all know, 8 seperate studies conducted in 2004 concluded that reality tv is directly responsible for AIDS and cancer in people aged 1-100. This is why we should ban any Reailty TV show from being broadcast. Easy, isn't it?
I would love if it was possible for them to do an experiment. Take away all violent video games and see if the gang activity still remains, and see if people still get pulled into gangs. It's a shame when there are so many REAL factors contributing to gang violence (poverty, drugs, peer pressure, vengeance, family) that they have to try and blame something which I do not believe is responsible for even one single person having joined a gang, or committing one crime.
A quote I found regarding 2 of the most notorious gangs: "The origins of the Crips and Bloods can be traced to the late 60's, and the gang culture is so ingrained on the west coast that many families have three and even four generations of gangsters residing in the same residence."
My question is, how have the gangs not caused a time paradox with access to time travel like this? It's obvious that they went back in time 40+ years ago with Playstations and Xboxes and started letting people play the violent games, thus creating these gangs.
I have nothing against the Police Chief's first statement: "Watch everything your kids watch and don’t be afraid to pull the plug…"
This is what parent's should be doing anyway. Not because the kids will grab a gun and start shooting if they see something violent, but because the material is inappropriate for kids. I will be a father in early December and as my son grows up, I don't want him asking me "Daddy, what does f*ck mean?" because he heard it in a film that he was too young to see. I don't want him to see people getting shot and killed in movies in case it scares him, likewise with monsters etc. in horror movies. I will monitor what he sees and plays and listens to so that these things are appropriate for his age, not because I am scared he will turn into a murderous sociopath.
It is clear from the above that the only person not paying attention in this debate is Dennis McCauley.
Jack Thompson
Mr. Thompson: Shut up and stay on topic, for once in your freaking life.
Jack, you're the one not paying attention, since there's still no absolute proof, only conjecture and hearsay.
Practice what you preach, Metropolitian Moron of Miami: Grow up and get a life.
"Shut the fuck up, you're out of your element." - Walter, The Big Lebowski
(THIS IS IN CAPS TO HELP JACKS POOR READING COMPREHENSION)
GET THIS INTO THAT THICK HEAD OF YOURS...
YOU CANNOT... I REPEAT CANNOT... TRAIN TO DO CARJACKING/VIOLENT CRIME FROM FROM PLAYING GTA...
YOUR THE ONLY ONLY PERSON WHO ISNT PAYING ATTENTION IN THIS DEBATE...
I DONT CARE WHAT SOMEONE SAID ON 60 MINUTES, IT DOESNT MEAN SQUAT...
THE SIMPLE FACT OF THE MATTER,
IS THAT GTA DOESNT CONDITION A PERSON TO KILL,
NOR TEACH THEM FIRING DISCIPLINE,
NOR BECOME USED TO RECOIL,
NOR TEACH THEM HOW TO HOTWIRE CARS,
NOR DOES IT TURN PEOPLE INTO CRIMINALS
ARE YOU REALLY THAT FAR OFF THE DEEP END THESE SIMPLE TRUTHS?
(damn no edit)
The link is not there, otherwise the game laws that have been defeated would have withstood constitutional challenge.
This also applies to Jack Thompson.
Yes. They learned to drive a car, load and reload guns, clean guns, handle recoil, all from a game which has no clear portrayal of any of that.
Pull your head out of your ass. Well, I WOULD suggest it if your anus hadn't permanently grown around your head.
Attempting to "link" video games to gang activity, school shootings, and suicide, is as idiotic, ignorant, and abusive as someone who would trivialize or wave off the mental, verbal, physical and near sexual abuse that Cody Posey suffered in favor of blaming his playing of video games.
No one would be so perverted, dishonorable, unethical, corrupt, and abusive to try such an act, would they?
Oh, wait...
Nightwng2000
NW2K software
Gangs Joined: 0
Murders of Police officers: 0
Ya, i definitely see a conection there. I wonder how much research he actually did, and im relatively certain gangs play video games because their IN the gang, not in a gang because of video games.
Oh yeah, thanks for the valuable lesson in carjacking. now I know that all I have to do is press triangle and my body will work in autopilot!
playing a video game doesn't make me any more of a murderer than being an attorney makes you a moral, ethical, and professional person.
You can't train for how to carjack with GTA. Learning how to press a single button with your thumb doesn't teach diddly.
If the carjackers were standing there making twitching motions with their thumb and failing miserably then he might have a point.
Ah well. Good luck with that attorney thing Jack. When that falls through you could always look for a job in porn distribution.
Yeah, it becomes a way of life, the gamers way of life. A gamer and a gang member are quite different. Just listen to any rap song and then to the "teh noob song". Anyone else find a slightly different usage of words?
Yeah, I know what you mean. These people have just been re-hashing the same spooooooky-language-WOOO~~~ statements that we've constantly been hearing and constantly pointing out how its not only a half-assed claim but with no evidence to back it up.
I'd also like to remind everyone 60 Minutes and The Washington Post don't count as evidence....
It's October 8th
Tomorrow is important
Enjoy your last days
"Ed Bradly pointed out to the national audience on the 60 Minutes segment about our GTA/Cop-Killing case that a gang of Oakland carjackers literally trained on GTA: Vice City, according to the Homicide Division."
Let us compare real life carjacking to GTA carjacking:
In order to carjack in real life, a person must pull open the door of an unlocked vehicle, wrestle the passenger (who could be armed, trained in self defense, etc.) out or threaten them out with a firearm, make sure they are not seen if possible, then drive away without being caught.
In order to carjack in GTA, a person must press the Triangle button and sit back and watch a random prerendered animation.
Wow, the amount of training they must get from that is absolutely incredible. How did we not notice that we are being trained to be expert carjackers by playing this game!
Mr. Thompson, I wonder if you are aware that just because you say something on 60 Minutes or in any other public forum does not make it correct. I could go on 60 Minutes and tell people that I am the King of the Jelly planet from 10 galaxies away, but it doesn't make it true. Iran's president got up in front of a large educated audience in New York and said there were no homosexuals in their country, does that make it true?
I assume this is in reference to the "Nut Case" gang who claimed they trained on GTA. This is the most disturbing thing about your and other people's "crusades" against video games. You have given callous criminals a reason that they can put up in court as to why they did it. "It was video games your honour, if I had never played that terrible Grand Theft Auto, myself and the members of my criminal gang would never have stolen those cars". In the Cody Posey case, you tried to gloss over the terrible abuse that the boy received from his Father and Step-mother. I think it's appalling that you could ignore this horrific behaviour in an effort to push your sorry little vendetta against Take Two.
Please get this through your head, playing Grand Theft Auto or any other video game does not "train" you to do things in real life. If it were that simple, then playing Phoenix Wright might have saved your career :)
The End.
Or "Last Call" has made me Tom Cruise.
Although, I could use the insta diet from the metamorphosis. :)
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Personally, I learned everything I know about space flight from Space Invaders. I'm totally ready to pilot a space shuttle now.
of course, how else are gangs going to train? i mean, it's not like they have specific members (with clean records) join the police or military and then "fail" out of training at the last possible moment so they can take all that training back to their gangs or anything.
no, it's the video games.
Oh, yeah, we've all had this conversation. The desire is to legislate all childhood activities because the old folks don't trust or understand new-fangled shinies. Maybe if they started emulating the churches using Halo to draw the crowds, they would inadvertently witness how far-off their claims are.
I still don't see how there is clear evidence of a link between violent videogames and gang activity. Oh, wait, I know--the presence of video games is all that's needed to incriminate them in any violent crime committed by violent criminals in violent gang willing to ice all the cops before they ever played GTA.
Of course it's obvious to all of "them" that the mere existence of these infernal gaming machines is a threat to society and the youth. Just like, despite the impossibility, GTA is so obviously the tool to teach real-life violence and skills (such as shooting and screeching driving).