@soul


prediction:

" 99% isn't very much of a change. Thanks for making my day, Dennis, Sweetie ;) "

In honor of our soldiers, I will not use the last part of most of these posts.

Not my kind of game but I like how the industry and some of those not even in the industry can reconize how the industry is being singled out from other media formats.

If manhunt was indeed a movie...they would of never had this kind of controversy.

As long as movies like Saw can go without any large scale panic in the general population, I'm gonna support Rockstar.

@Sidewinder

amen to that. stupid social hypocrisy...

Good point; that comparison to Star Wars... Since videogames bring in more money to their industry than movies, shouldn't they be held to the same standard?

I am more curious now about how the quality of the game. Something tells me this may just end up being a marginal game that sells well simply due to controversy.

retrogamer88:

Lots of 1% changes in films have meant they have been allowed through. Pulp fiction had to re-edit the scene with the heroin needly injection or it wouldn't have been accepted by the BBFC for instance. Minor I know, but it failed on 1 point, they changed it, resubmitted and then said "yup that's fine now".

I gave the BBFC the benefit of the doubt over Manhunt 2 when the first ban struck. I even suggested calling off the dogs when the 2nd ban was handed out, butthe reasons that were given by the BBFC for that 2nd ban don't seem to be very solid, and could indeed be a kneejerk reaction or buckling to pressure. "General feel of the game" is a specific enough reason to ban it IMHO. Just because one person or group of persons are creeped out or disgusted by something doesn't mean it should be removed from view. I was hoping for something much more specific and maybe even a list of things to change for R* in order to obtain a rating.

When the NY Times (a media sources that many would describe as liberal) come down in defense of the ESRB and a game developers you know that the controversy is all wrong. As for the BBFC it was highly hypocritical of them to say that they are not for sensor ship and then ban Rockstars game. This tells that that there were bucking to pressure and they might lift the ban given time (its an election year and well let face it nobody want to piss any one off).

Good article. It would've been even stronger if it pointed out that the kills in MH2 aren't much different from its predecessor.

Having looked at videos of the kills and gotten a taste of the overall mood of the game, I agree that both are darker and more gruesome than any other game I've ever played...except for the first Manhunt. That game's kills were just as brutal (Ex. the "baseball bat" kill) and its story isn't excatly cheerful either. Despite that, Manhunt made it through the ESRB and BBFC and got an M and 18+ (respectively) with no problems.

This is the part that bothers me. Does the BBFC have no concept of precident? Slapping a game with a unworkable rating because of one violent act that "goes too far" is one thing (this almost happened to The Punisher). However, essentially banning a game (by which I mean, it cannot be sold in any store, which constitutes a ban in my eyes) because "No, you can't have this story arc" or "No, the mood of the piece needs to be changed" or "No, you can't have this message in your game/book/movie" is far worse. And it WILL set a precident on the storytelling of games. I mean, just how is a developer supposed to avoid a rating refusal based on something as vauge as "bleakness and callousness of tone"? We've seen it affect Condemned 2, who knows how far it will go?

People can say that I'm defending a "piece of trash" or whatever. However, this isn't just about one game. This is about drawing arbitary lines on things as ambiguous as context and mood. This is about not allowing games to tackle themes several movies and books have. This is about inconsistency in rating games. This is why I utterly, completely oppose the BBFCs move to indirectly block this game from release in its country.

Condemned 2 has already been self censored in fear of the AO rating. They took out a bunch of kills.

When the NY Times (a media sources that many would describe as liberal) come down in defense of the ESRB and a game developers you know that the controversy is all wrong.

Not quite. JT's definitely not liberal, and is about as "Religious Right" as they come. He's homophobic and wants to maintain the old status quo of societal standards.

@ C'tri

...or clearly harmful; but since games are neither, well, your point still stands.

Maybe seeing it in print in this particular newspaper will thaw the frozen wastes of brain cells in the heads of some more of the people who jump on the blame bandwagons without reason or understanding.

Personally, I've never been a fan of Manhunt, it just seemed far to bleak and angsty to me. As tim Schaffer said, 'games should be about wish fulfillments'. With that said, I have no wish to be the character from Manhunt 1 or 2. I'm happy with the idea of playing a SPARTAN II, a fighter pilot, an ass-kicking demon hunter, or a soldier in the mud in France, but not a nut job killer.

However, the fact that they did cut parts to meet the M rating to me says that they just want to make the game, rather than make some political statement. Yes, the game is dark and twisted, but no more so than some of the films that have come out in recent years. If anything, I think it shows a minor flaw in the ratings system that it and Halo are rated the same even though they are light day and night, comparatively.

@ retrogamer88

"Trashy" things always take time and effort by people- episodes of Jerry Springer, Ed Wood films, porno flicks, etc.

@ Zerodash and Anonymous

You have a point there. But why is this a "piece of trash" when it is just a video game. You kill people like other video games. Guns, gore, etc. You still play as a killer. What about GTA? Even Duke Nukem 3D back in the day had guns, gore, cussing, even strippers that flashed you when you payed them money. That was only M, and everybody loved it. So why is this a "piece of trash"?

@ Jack "Attention Whore" Thompson

I know you are looking at this. Don't even try anything with this.

As much as i didnt like the game, i might just get it just because. But only after it is properly reviewed.

Ugh, just hearing "pliers (sp?) to the testicles" makes me wince in pain >.

@ ZippyDSMlee

um since I'm not aware of any short hand for MS that does not mean microsoft you'r forgive me if I'm slightly confused. Manhunt 2 is not coming out on any MS console, but may be coming out on PC. So I' don't really get your comment.

"...One scene that depicted a pair of pliers being applied to male genitalia has been cut…"

Good lord... As a male who is looking forward to this game, I have to admit I'm rather glad they've chosen to remove that aspect. It's painful enough to simply imagine such an action taking place.

If you want a real preview they are now selling the guide to it in stores, I took a look and learned some interesting things. Like for instance the katana is not available in the wii version (but there are some wii exclusive weapons).

When I say that MH2 is a piece of trash, I say it because:

1) As far as gameplay goes, it is average.
2) As far as "torture pr0n" goes, I still hate it. (Gimme Fight Club any day).
3) As far as graphics go, I ain't a "graphx R all!1!" type but in "torture pr0n", they'd better be good. Reseach shows they ain't.
4) "Come on Rockstar, you can do better than that!"
5) I still feel their marketting model needs to meet the bussness end of a balistic missile, in the rectum.
6) It goes only on shock value.

And lastly, I have seen things which have taken a lot of dedication stay pieces of trash.

The first Manhunt was great and I expect this one to be great as well. The first was scary, and really creeped me out. It did exactly what it set out to do and in my eyes that makes it the opposite of 'trash'. I think people should at least try the game before they bash it. If it isn't your taste, then your opinion on it doesn't mean much. It is like me reviewing a Britney Spears album.....I hate that shit so it would get a '0' from me, whereas someone who enjoys pop trash might give it a '10'.

I like scary games. Silent Hill, Silent Hill 2, and Manhunt have all freaked me out to the point where I could not play them alone. Something that powerful is not 'trash'.

Can't wait to get my hands on this game! I might have to get the PSP and PS2 version so I can play when I am out in the woods camping and get totally freaked out!

@Phantom

I was talking more about Hilary and her think against the 1st admenment.

I am sure that if SAW the video game is still going to be produced that Jack Thompson would go after that game saying that students would put a torture trap on a bully.

I have just seen the review for Manhunt 2 on ign.com.

They said the kills was really censored to the point were you cant really enjoy alot of them.

I think that Jack Thompson and those groups need to shut up and back off our right to play what we want.

I want to play Manhunt 2 as it was meant to be.

As far as levels of violence go what about the Kevin Bacon flick from the Saw guys? No genitals mutilated but still, hyper violence sells.

URGENT

John B. Thompson, Attorney at Law
1172 S. Dixie Hwy., Suite 111
Coral Gables, Florida 33146

October 30, 2007

State Attorney Bill Eddins
Pensacola, FL 32501 (850) 595-4212 bill_eddins@sa01.org

State Attorney William Meggs
Tallahassee, Florida 850-488-7340

State Attorney Jerry Blair
Live Oak, Florida jerryb@mail.sa3.state.fl.us

State Attorney Harry Shorstein
Jacksonville, Florida harrys@coj.net

State Attorney Brad King
Brooksville, Florida

State AttorneyBernie McCabe
Clearwater, Florida 727-452-7236

State Attorney John Tanner
Bunnell, Florida

State Attorney William Cervone
Gainesville, Florida

State Attorney Lawson Lamar
Orlando, Florida

State Attorney Jerry Hill
Bartow, Florida

State Attorney Kathy Rundle
Miami, Florida


State Attorney Earl Moreland
Sarasota, Florida

State Attorney Mark Ober
Tampa, Florida

State Attorney Steve Meadows
Panama City, Florida

State Attorney Barry Krischer
West Palm Beach, Florida

State Attorney Mark Kohl
Key West, Florida

State Attorney Mike Satz
Ft. Lauderdale, Florida

State Attorney Norman Wolfinger
Viera, Florida

State Attorney Bruce Colton
Ft. Pierce, Florida

State Attorney Stephen Russell
Ft. Myers, Florida

Re: Sale of Sexual Material to Minors, Commencing October 30, Midnight

Dear Florida State Attorneys:

Commencing at midnight tonight, major retailers in your jurisdiction will begin selling to anyone 17 and over an extremely violent video game called Manhunt 2, which is made by the same folks that have for years sold the Grand Theft Auto. I was on 60 Minutes about three cops killed by a teen who trained on the cop-killing virtual reality simulator to kill them. I represent the police officers’ families.

Manhunt 2 has so much sex and violence in it that it has been banned for sale even to adults in the United Kingdom. Yet in less than 17 hours it is going to be sold to teens in your respective jurisdictions.

One little detail that the video game industry and its retail network (which includes Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Circuit City, GameStop, Toys R Us, Target, etc.) have conveniently managed to forget is that Florida, like more than forty other states and the feds as well, have “sexual material harmful to minors” statutes. It is a felony to violate those laws. Although it is not a crime to sell violent material to minors (not yet) it is a crime, as you all know, to sell “sexual material harmful to minors.” This game has a “Mature” rating slapped on it by the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB). The ESRB “descriptor” says “Contains Strong Sexual Content.” One of the problems with the video game industry’s horribly flawed rating system is that it green lights (incongruously) the sale of “Mature” games to anyone 17 and over, which means there is a one-year hiatus between what the industry allows, when it comes to sexual material, and what the law, democratically enacted, provides. Math tells us that 17 is less than 18. Law trumps any industry practice. The fact then is that this “Strong Sexual Content” video game is going to be sold to kids under 18. The industry itself admits this and condones this.

So, what’s the problem here? Well, Manhunt 2 features a virtual reality “sex club” in the game. The CEO of the widely-respected Common Sense Media calls the content of the game “pornographic violence,” as reported yesterday by the Associated Press.

I would respectfully suggest that your respective offices determine if the content of this game runs afoul of our “sexual material harmful to minors” statute. I have four experts who have testified before Congress on the harmful effects of this type of product, and I can make them available to each and every one of you if a prosecution ensues. I think you can get a favorable probable cause ruling today, given what is already in the public domain about this violent, sexually-laden game.

By the way, the game, when played on the kid-friendly Nintendo Wii platform, allows the players to hold motion capture devices, so that they can actually act out with their entire bodies the killing scenarios, which include torture with pliers, shovels, and the like.

Please feel free to contact me if you so desire. I think, as a father of a 15-year-old that the video game industry’s mental molestation of minors for money has gone on long enough, don’t you? And now we have sexual content in the game that may be running afoul of the law. These people obviously need better lawyers.

Regards, Jack Thompson

Hey, Dennis, moderate this: Hooah!

@ Jack Thompson, soon-to-be-former-attorney

First, "Common Sense" Media is well-respected how? That garbage group is considered a rip-off of the Parent Trash Cult(PTC). Besides that, they used an unrated beta version of the game that was leaked online, and doesn't truly represent the finished rated copy. Therefore, anything that comes from "CS"M regarding Manhunt 2 is a lie, straight and simple.

Second, you were kicked off that Alabama suit, so technically, you no longer represent those assclowns who put a price tag on their loved ones' lives. And that case will go down in flames, as it is no different than the suits against Ozzy Osbourne over "Suicide Solution", Judas Priest over "Better By You, Better Than Me", and Oliver Stone over "Natural Born Killers".

Third, the statistics show that 90% of all video game sales are made by adults, and further crunching of the numbers show that sales to minors by themselves only make up 1.26% of all video game sales whether the games were rated EC, E, E10, T, or M.

Practice what you preach, jabroni: Grow up and get a life.

In Jack's paltry little letter there he ignores the fact that many R rated movies also have sexual content. And there is also nothing stopping the same kids from buying Manhunt 2 than from picking up said movie.

Also Jack. Prepare yourself for another failure. Manhunt 2 will be out tomorrow.

@ JT
"So, what’s the problem here? Well, Manhunt 2 features a virtual reality “sex club” in the game. The CEO of the widely-respected Common Sense Media calls the content of the game “pornographic violence,” as reported yesterday by the Associated Press."

So, what is the problem here?

Jack, you're an Arse. Deal with it.

You know, he really does have a mental age of about 6 doesn't he?

The fact is that he is scared of Dennis, because Dennis reports the facts.