@ Black Manta,

I agree with you but at the same time I think this, if true, could start a dangerous trend toward the banning/pulling of other M rated games. Once you ban on one M rated game it just makes it that much simpler to keep the trend going.

To keep it out of the hands of children is the responsibility of the parents. You don't want them to have it? DON"T BUY IT FOR THEM OR ALLOW THEM TO PURCHASE IT. Parenting 101 - "Parents make the rules, no exceptions".

I wish these "watchdog groups" would stop trying to destroy my rights as a parent.

@ Shawn S,
Do you know if Target has already purchased the game but is refusing it? Or is it that they pay their share when they sell a copy of the game?

@Jabrwock:

My point exactly.

"Eh, his opinion and he’s free to have it."


I didn't say he wasn't allowed to have that opinion. But my opinion is shared by the people who wrote reviews for the game. Manhunt tanked, and would be a bargain bin game right now if it wasn't riding on the coat tails of controversy that Thompson and Yee are spreading.

Its so amusing that because of Jack drawing attention to it, that it is in the hands of more minors than it otherwise would have been. Irony is amusing.

Sorry if this is a double post I don't see it coming up.

I hate posting as Anon. but gotta keep my job. Target is in fact refusing all Manhunt 2 shipments. The DPCI it refers to specifically comes up in the system as the PS2 version.

Here is the Internal Target Memo in all its glory:

11/02/07 Manhunt 2 Shipment

Electronics, Guest Service (Front End), Receiving Chargebacks

Issue 1

Manhunt 2 (207.12.1742) is a new video game releasing this week. It is currently on the way to stores. The game has been identified as having graphic nature and we have decided not to carry this title. The vendor, Take Two Games, has agreed to take back the title.

Action 1

Please REFUSE shipments of Manhunt 2 (207.12.1742). It will be coming direct to store on PO 5208023. DO NOT, in any circumstance, put this title on shelves.

Action Due Date

11/03/2007

mw

@ Pandralisk

How the hell are Target and conservatives or religion for that matter in any why mentioned or even conected with the article? Honestly Pandralisk, you can have some good opinions and insight on matters, all we ask is that you leave your twisted views on religion out of it.

If true, then Take Two should sue them, being that they've broken an agreement on selling M rated games.

@Doggyspew: TakeTwo can't control what Target (or any other store) decide to sell or to not sell.


I don't really care. There are hundreds of other places to get the game and the only people losing out here are Target.

If true, it would be a sign that certain retailers give in easily to fear mongering, fraud, lies, deceit, and corruption of various individuals and and so-called "morally superior" organizations.

One could easily use similar inflammatory statements as the "morally superior" individuals and organizations and state that such retailers are clearly against Freedom of Speech, against the US Constitution, against the First Amendment, against everything that the US Constitution stands for, and in favor of an Anti-American dictatorship, just like those individuals and organizations who falsely and fraudulently claim to be aginst censorship and "only protecting children" when, in fact, their pressure to violate the Rights of citizens of the US is clearly acts of Anti-American forces within the US.

Hey, if they can make all sorts of false inflammatory statements against those who SUPPORT the First Amendment and Freedom of Speech, it only seems fair to make TRUE inflammatory statements against those who are openly AGAINST Freed of Speech, AGAINST the US Constinution, and even AGAINST Parent's Rights to make their OWN decisions regarding their OWN children. They can lie and deceive people all they want, claiming that they offered less severe actions, but their OWN actions PROVE otherwise.

Do retailers have the Right to carry or not carry a product? Of course they do. HOWEVER, when the claimed justification is inconsistant with the carrying of other similar products, one has to wonder what the TRUTH is. Let them make up whatever justification they want. To date, the only TRUE excuse is bowing to Anti-US-Constitution forces attempting to create and Anti-American dictatorship. Let those who are in favor of a dictatorship come to Target's defense all they want. They just show their TRUE stances by lying and deceiving the general public with all sorts of false claims.

As I said, if Target were consistant in its actions, that would be one thing. Not to mention that facts about the content of Manhunt 2 were known months ago, before they started ordering. So, let them cover up with whatever false excuses they can. The Truth, The WHOLE Truth, and Nothing But The Truth will always win out.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

"I’m starting to think we ought to close Rockstar. The quality of the games they make isn’t high enough to offset the PR damage they cause."


Grand Theft Auto 4?

R* won't lose any money. Anyone who is planning on buying the game will buy it anyway, they'll just go somewhere else to do it. Like I said; the only people losing out are Target.

Target waited for the reviews to come in, then said, "Oh, it's not gonna sell all that great. Looks like a good time for a PR stunt."

I understand the selling it online only as it is a way for thm to placate the critcs whilst still put it out for the target audience.
If they pull it completely it is a pointless excercise as they will get criticised by their customers for bowing to pressure and in-store censorship.

That's the third major retailer that still has the Rating Pending logo showing for this product. BestBuy.ca still has it (and also says " If you’re under 18, don’t even bother thinking about it. We’re not selling you a copy. ") as does Futureshop.ca (who also says "Parents - if you haven't figured it out yet, this isn't for your kids under 18, so please don't buy it for them, okay? Thanks.")

So, is it possible that BestBuy & Futureshop are enforcing an Adults Only rating despite the ESRB recommending M17+?

i am in no way supportive of what rockstar or take 2 does/creates, but if target or any other store for that matter, is not going to sell the game based on its content or crap they have heard from these fanatical "watchdog" groups, then they need to stop selling all M rated games, movies, etc, NO EXCEPTIONS.

what they are doing is pulling a double standard and separating manhunt from a group that it really isnt any different from. while its their right to decide what they want to sell and not sell, its really unfair to both rockstar and the consumer if they are going to single out this one game when there are countless other games and movies that share similar content. i may not care for manhunt myself but this is really pushing the line.

@gs2005

Is Fry's selling it for cheaper?

@chadachada

Really? Every Best Buy / Circuit city / EB games in my local area is all sold out. I ended up having to order it online

The stores have a right to decide what to sell and what not to sell. That being said, if this is the result of the "morally superior" watchdog groups (and I believe it is), then this a violation of free speech and an example of defamation. Take Two deserves better than this and Target is holding a double standard here. They, just like the other retailers, sell games like God of War, Mortal Kombat, Grand Theft Auto, and so forth. Although they are not as bloody as Manhunt 2, that is not the point. An M-rated game is an M-rated game through and through. Target, while having the right to choose what to sell, should never refuse to sell anything because of false and/or blown-out-of-proportion information put out by watchdog, "morally-conscious" groups.

I could make a great many false and inflammatory statements about this.

But then I'd be Jack Thompson.

God forbid they just enforce the ratings.

That tells you one important factor. That no matter how strongly they refuse to sell it to teens, PARENTS will still think it's a kid's toy, and buy it for them anyway.

Best Buy is making you be 18 to buy the game so why don't they allow AO games???

http://tinyurl.com/3ymcs7

I'm truly tempted to suggest they abolish the AO rating to begin with, but that'll never happen.

Personally I'm not really sure how I feel about this. I detest the lack of consistency involved but I also support the stores right to sell or not sell merchandise.

Wouldn't this only matter if they pulled games that people wanted to play more? quite a few people appear to be buying/renting this game purely because its at the centre of a lot of publicity. from the massive amounts of screen shots, interviews, trailers etc. this doesn't even seem to be a very fun game to play.

I would imagine if Target decided to pull, for want of a more suitable word, 'better' games then they would hear a public uproar and serious business repercussions, but they must feel they wont lose too much money to make this a financially unsafe move.

@Kurisu7885

that made me laugh, thank you very much.

"If true, it would be a sign that certain retailers give in easily to fear mongering, fraud, lies, deceit, and corruption of various individuals and and so-called “morally superior” organizations."

Yep, sounds like Target, all right. Remember, this is the same mass retailer that banned the Salvation Army from collecting anywhere near it because they were alledgedly "hassling" Target's customers, and this is the same amss retailer that banned the usage of the term "Merry Christmas" and changed it to "Happy Holidays" because of a few loudmouthed Atheists. Generally, Target's almost always the first to cave into political correctness.

There also exists the possibility that Target is simply making a "business decision." And perhaps their business decision is to remove the game from on-shelf sales, but continue to sell it through their online division? That would allow local store owners to say, "I'm not selling the game on MY shelves," while corporate HQ can still generate income from online sales.
That keeps local stores out of the line of fire, preventing those who work at those stores from running afoul of their neighborhood concerned citizens, hometown news crews, and others who might stir up troubles by the presence of controversial games on shelves.
Is this an ideal solution? No, I don't think so. I agree that it's not a favorable precedent to set. But from a business perspective, it might be seen as more practical. We'll just have to see what happens next.
Perhaps other retailers might be in a better position to resist alarmist flak and keep the game out there.
As noted in earlier comments, the game (which I have not played) may not even be that good, just overly hyped and geared to cause controversy due to its content. I don't know for sure.
However, wouldn't you think that allowing poor sales due to a badly done game would teach a better lesson to developers than boosting interest in a bad game and also triggering a huge and costly legal war over protected free expression? I think the latter generates more losers than winners.
Then again, I suppose activists wouldn't generate as much furor by saying, "That game's controls and interface are crap! Your designers need to go back to school!"

On a side note, do you think a message that takes the entire game into account, gives positive and negative observations, and then addresses the content from a perspective of personal taste (i.e., an actual review of the game in addition to the personal viewpoints of storyline and content) would be accepted better than just, "I hate the content of this game, and all of you who play and defend it are depraved evil maniacs?"

It seems like Target would probably do the exact opposite - controversy makes good money, so a bunch of corporate scumbags like Target would probably keep selling it because of how much they'd be profiting from it.

I don't recall Target generally doing "responsible" things like that - they didn't even card me when I bought GTA Vice City two years ago.

That would allow local store owners to say, “I’m not selling the game on MY shelves,” while corporate HQ can still generate income from online sales.

And on the other hand, web purchases require a credit card, so they know the buyer is most likely 18, as per FTC regulations. No chance of a minimum wage employee screwing that up... That and the parents can't pretend the kid bought it. Unless they want to admit to violating credit card rules.

[...] Source: Target Rumored to Be Pulling Manhunt 2 From Stores Bookmark it: [...]

The responses seem to me to be quite an overreaction as well as the action itself.

This game is not banned. Target can choose to sell whatever it wants. It hasn't been stated whether or not this is the PSP version or all versions. I will get to the bottom of this tonight, I go to work in two hours and I will check myself.

Target, as you may or may not remember, had a rough Christmas when the store expelled Salvation Army bell ringers and has been looking for positive publicity ever since. They do donate quite a bit of cash to schools and charities (look at the new ad campaign). I see this purely as a move to deflect possible negative publicity for the store.

Anyways, I'll find out what games this entails today.

Rockstar uses controversy to drive sales and this is the risk you take. Regardless of whether it's fair it's hardly retailers' place to be on the front lines fighting for game developers. Their job is to sell it or not, whatever they think will make them more money. The developers' job is to make a product that makes financial sense to carry. If Target thought carrying this in stores wasn't worth the hassle but online would be less trouble, I don't think we can second-guess them.

"Manhunt 2 is not a bad game, either. First one was better though"


...That phrase makes no sense to me. The first game was abysmal. The control sucked which was only balanced out by the fact the game was so damn boring you really didn't care to try and drive your character who controlled like a boat down the hallway. Because frankly you knew there was not going to be anything interesting down said hallway.

And for the second one to not be as good as the first one. I shudder to think it. Though I'll likely still rent it for the heck of it.

@Erik

Eh, his opinion and he's free to have it.

I don't know all the numbers, but I have to believe that the number of titles of any game sold at Target still pales in comparison to Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Gamestop, and the like. Target's decision to pull the game effectively protects itself from any potential class-action lawsuits since lawyers always target the place that a person bought the game from, and protects themselves from any negative rap associated with the game. Everyone saying it's wrong of Target to do, retailers aren't forced to carry anything they do not want to. If I run a magazine shop, I have the right to refuse to carry adult magazines, and no one can say anything about it. Is it a poor business decision? Maybe. But many people put morals before dollars, and that to me commends more respect from me than people who put money over morals and declare it "free speech". Consumers will shop where they want and if they want the game they will order online or go elsewhere.

Seriously, who cares? There are plenty of other places to buy the game from. Now if only they'd release the AO rated version for PC.

@Those who are saying that Target has the right to choose what to sell.
I know and agree. However, it's the circumstances that made Target to choose not to sell the game. If this were the result of the watchdog groups, this will have a bad effect on free speech. The other retailers would have to pull the game (and other things that other people will bitch about) from the shelves in order to avoid the scruitiny. Also, this is a double standard. If Target removes this game, they should remove ALL violent entertainment from the shelves.

Our reaction to Target like this is like the Democrats' reaction to President Bush when he fired those Attorneys. He had the power to do it, but what was the reason behind the firings? Were they launching an investigation into the President? Were the firings for political reasons? Our reaction to Target is similar to this.

One last thing:
Whether this game has a good or bad score is NOT the point. This is a content and free speech issue, not whether the gameplay is great or terrible.

@Jabrwock:

"That and the parents can’t pretend the kid bought it. Unless they want to admit to violating credit card rules."

Right, Jack? :P

@Anon:

"It hasn’t been stated whether or not this is the PSP version or all versions."

From the article:

"Dr. Finger, said that he got news of an internal memo spreading within the company which states that every branch will stop selling the game and to refuse all future deliveries of the title for all systems."

So it sounds like that is indeed the case, that they won't be selling any of the versions of Manhunt 2. (Wow, its no longer sold at *one* chain out of how many different brick-and-mortar/online chains? ... :P

@Dave

I don't think gamers need to do that just cuz 1 store decided to stop carrying it. If more stores follow, I.E, Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Best Buy, so on, then ya we all gotta do something then.

Target still sell the game on their website but not in stores?

I suspect they're simply planning ahead. They don't want to get caught when someone sends an undercover teen to buy it.

@Buck

Gamestop sucks. They ALWAYS ask for your used games, ALWAYS offer a strategy guide with a game, and ALWAYS beg you to preorder.

Sadly, you wont find the game at Toys R Us either. The temporary AO rating that loomed over it was a death-stamp for it there (I work there, hence my knowing). Its sad too, because I'm getting a free wii in about a week and a half and I would have loved to pick up the wii version with my store discount, a 20% off coupon, 5 McDonalds Dollars, and a $5 off coupon. Guess I'll just have to do that with Resident Evil 4 and Final Fantasy Tactics, which we do have.

@ SounDemon

That must just be your local store, because mine barely acts like it even cares.

Well, I happened to read this - and that's fine and dandy. The problem is - Target, along with Wal-Mart - well... usually when I go in there, I can't find what I'm looking for anyway, in video games.

Now they are going to get customers who are looking for it, don't really pay attention to how or why and just think, 'well heck, target doesn't carry a very good selection'.

So - really, it doesn't matter. It doesn't make me think Target is all 'moral' by any means - no more than any other company. They just choose to carry less of a selection, that's all. Heck, I almost never go there anyway.

It’s obvious why they pulled the game out of their physical shelves. They wanted to make sure that they won’t sell it to minors by accident (a sad truth is that some teenagers are younger than they look. My little brother, for example is 13 (I’m 19) and he’s almost as tall as I am). By selling it exclusively on the net, they’ll prevent minors from getting it themselves (even though folks like Thompson would never admit it) but they can’t do much about parents who don’t read ESRB’s warning.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but they must have heard about Best-Buy lawsuit and don't want to be in the same boat as them (if that's the case, they obviously don't know Thompson).

I wonder if any laws exist that prohibit retailers from supplying certain products for reasons other that profit when they offer similar products?

Tough to understand but this is the gist of the idea:

If a retailer sells forms of entertainment that are clearly for adults -- playboys, films like SAW/Hostel, sexy clothing -- can it legally refuse to sell another product intended for adults for reasons other than profit?

I'm so sick of conservative pigs shoving their bullshit morality into society. They need to take their contradictory morals, religious texts, and ridiculous values and shove them deep back up their asses to where they belong.

"I’m so sick of conservative pigs shoving their bullshit morality into society."


Conservative democrats? Yeah, most proposed video game laws come from the democrats. Even as a democrat myself I can admit that.

I'll always remember target as the place that my grandfather shot the center out of.

In other news, fuck Target. It used to be cool, what happened?

Seriously this is not a rumor. What other proof must I provide.

I did three national television interviews on Manhunt 2 last week. I was happy to contribute to any possible decision by Target to pull this crap game.

Hooah! Jack Thompson

Great, Mr. Thompson. I agree it's a crap game, but in all seriousness, the air you presented around the subject was mediocre in comparison to coverage by networks that... mattered.

@Anon

Yeah man it sucks big time there, they have no organization at all and know idea how to treat products differently which in result f-ucks anyone over working in electronics. That's great for you mate, I've been trying to leave for 2 years... Cheers to you mate!

@jack thompson, attorney

It isn't pulled entirely, they're still selling it online. Still, thanks for admitting you approve banning over education. Going after Wal Mart next under the false idea of being the linch pin holding all of this together?

ANd odds are, the game does suck, so, SHUT UP ABOUT IT AND LET IT DIE!!!!

@Pandralisk

Individual retailers or corporations can make whatever decision they want for basically any reason they want, and the validity of their decisions is weighed on the free market. Many stores reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, usually because the customer is scum. However, a store could choose to do so because the customer is ugly, or smelly, or because the owners are racist. In these cases, especially the latter, they may lose sales or inspire a boycott such to business suffers and they have to change policies and make amends or go out of business. Also, a book or game seller may choose not to stock a title, perhaps because they object to the content, or perhaps they think it will sell poorly. Either way, their choices may impact them monetarily and influence their future choices, which is the power of the free market.

In these cases, if someone is not offering a good or service, go elsewhere. Target won't sell it, go to Walmart or Best Buy or some specialty store. The problem comes when there is a monopoly and the consumer has nowhere else to go. If one guy owns all the railroads and refuses to ship your goods, there's nothing you can do. Net neutrality is important because you do not have a choice in your Telcom company, as service is restricted in any area to usually just 1 company, maybe as many as 3, and there is no recourse to them abusing their power. These cases are especially serious as the railroads and telcom networks have been set up through government support and subsidy, so they are a public trust. In these cases, we need government regulation to protect consumers.

There needs to be a thoughtful balance, so on one hand we do not get gouged by monopoly holders, but on the other hand we cannot force someone to provide a good or service that they do not want to provide or will not profit from providing.

Jack Thompon proves once again that he's a censoring douche.

And again Jack claims credit for something that he didn't REALLY have any responsibility in.

Seriously Jack, they probably didn't even listen to your tripe, let alone come to such a decision because of it. They could have heard it from the COUNTLESS places covering this issue, not the measly 3 that you lied your way to get on.

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