Video Game (& movie & music & book & gun & Internet & TV & craziness) Connections Emerge in Finnish School Shooting
Video Game (& movie & music & book & gun & Internet & TV & craziness) Connections Emerge in Finnish School Shooting
November 8, 2007
Let the finger-pointing begin...Pekka-Eric Auvinen (left), the 18-year-old gunman who killed eight people and himself at Jokela High School in Tuusula, Finland yesterday, was apparently a fan of first-person shooters Counter-strike and Battlefield 2.
According to Battlefield 2 game stats available online, a Finnish BF2 player with the screen name NaturalSelector89 played his last match yesterday at 8:47 AM. That is, shortly before the shooting occurred. Auvinen, who posted a series of YouTube videos under the name Sturmgeist89, referred to himself in his YouTube profile as a "natural selector".
Battlefield 2 is a popular, T-rated military shooter.
Available for download on the FPS Banana site is a user-created Counter-strike map, fy_jokelaschool_v1. The map was uploaded by the screen name 2tow. It is unclear whether that was Auvinen, although 2tow's profile does list Finland as his native country.
Auvinen's YouTube videos, including one that apparently stated his intent to attack the school are receiving enormous media attention. His YouTube profile reads in part:
...Don’t blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth!
Auvinen's profile also lists among his interests:
Existentialism, Freedom, Truth, Misantrophy, Social / Personality Psychology, Evolution Science, Political Incorrectness, Women, BDSM, Guns (I love you Catherine), Shooting, Computer Games, Sarcasm, Irony, Mass / Serial Killers, Macabre Art, Black Comedy, Absurdism
Movies and Shows: The Matrix, A View To A Kill, Falling Down, Natural Born Killers, Reservoir Dogs, Last Man Standing, Full Metal Jacket, Dr. Butcher MD (aka Zombie Holocaust), Saw 1-3, Lord Of War, The Deer Hunter, True Romance, The Untouchables, 28 Days Later, 28 Weeks Later, Idiocracy, They Live, Apocalypse Now, End Of Days, The Shining, The Dead Zone, Dr. Strangelove, House MD (TV), Monty Python, TV Documentaries Relating To History
Music: KMFDM, Rammstein, Eisbrecher, Nine Inch Nails, Grendel, Impaled Nazarene, Macabre, Deathstars, The Prodigy, Combichrist, Godsmack, Slayer, Children Of Bodom, Alice Cooper, Sturmgeist, Suicide Commando, Hatebreed, Suffocation, Terrorizer
Books: Fahrenheit 451 (Bradbury), 1984 (Orwell), Brave New World (Huxley), The Republic (Plato), all works of Nietzsche
GP: For those who are predisposed to blame cultural or media influences, they are plentiful, as listed above. It would be unfair and unwise to suggest that games are at fault. Although there are those that will.
Clearly this young man was very troubled. News reports also state that he purchased the weapon used in the massacre shortly after his 18th birthday. The percentage of gun ownership in Finland is reportedly very high.
His use of YouTube to announce his intention seems to be an extrapolation of Virginia Tech killer Sueng-Hui Cho's infamous pre-massacre videos.
UPDATE: Apparently Auvinen was into the Hitman series as well. One of his YouTube videos is titled A Tribute to CodeName 47. Its intro blurb reads: Hitman -series is one of the greatest game series in history. This is a tribute to the main character of the game, codename 47. ...
Comments
Still, his disclaimer won't stop anti-game morons like JT, nor narcissistic 'Culture-Warriors' like Bill O'Reilly, nor pro gun control morons like Hillary Clinton from shooting their mouths off.
He did but it was just a random aside, I don't think he knew anymore about the case at the time then we did.
Clearly, the movies he watches, music he listens to, and games that he plays didn't make him violent, they are just his outlet for exercising his already violent personality.
His list of favorite movies, (while including many "classics" that even I enjoy), are exclusively violent in nature. Yes, my favorite movies include We Were Soldiers and Shooter, but my all-time favorite movie is The Land Before Time. (You know you love it too...)
He also lists Mass/Serial Killers as an interest. Shouldn't someone have seen the signs?
Get your facts straight - Cho didn't play CounterStrike anymore. The Post retracted that comment.
This statement was subsequently retracted when it was found to have no basis in truth. Shouting at a wall to hear an echo doesn't make the wall a citable source.
Auvinen here provides a convenient list of everything he likes. Why are the games the only ones that matter?
Scroll way back up. A letter of his just popped up a bit ago, just finally getting through moderation.
He lies about the goals and purpose of GTA. He lies about what motivated Dennis Moore. He lies about only CCing the letter to one other person.
John Bruce cannot stop lying. He is a pathological lying narccisist.
CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/08/school.shooting/index.html
FOX News:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,309456,00.html
BBC News:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7085329.stm
CBS News:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/08/ap/europe/main3472107.shtml
USAToday:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-11-08-finland-shooting_N.htm?loc...
Yahoo News:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071108/ap_on_re_eu/finland_school_shooting;...
I’m sure I could find more articles, but I’m late for a meeting.
Perhaps Jack can enlighten us on how this massive conspiracy against reporting the “truth” was masterminded by the video game companies?
This pretty much sums it up. A hate filled man that decided that those he hated deserved to die, and wished to send that message to the world by following through on it himself. The problem is the person, not with what they seek out.
if we are lucky enough
http://www.theledger.com/article/20071108/NEWS/711080534/1039
As you can see from the article, the incident had absolutely -nothing- to do with video games. Thompson, by forming that assumption, just proves that he is a severely mentally ill man.
AKA- A "Signal 20" is what we who work in Law Enforcement offices call it.
Though not Broward, I do work in Sheriff's Office and I deal with mail from the public. Wacky letters like Thompson's often get ignored. For obvious reasons.
It's customised. Chambered for 7.92's, 16x Scope.. Camoflauged.. That's why you can't have it. I'd be happy to give you my Kar98k.
I was always the top marksman in my Boy Scout troop growing up. I improved tremendously when I switched to my dominate eye.
I don't do much with guns other than target shoot on occsion. I would like to go hunting some time, but I don't own a gun.
Yet i've never off'd someone amazing isnt it?
Dark sovereign
Sorry for making u cringe on that last posts!
I'll agree, with the following caveat: Weapons from different manufacturers will tend to reload differently. Further, different kinds of weapons reload differently, and weapons built for different circumstances will tend to reload differently. However, weapons built for the same kind of situation/purpose will tend to reload in similar fashion. Like an M-16 and an AK-47, both are assault rifles designed for military use. Both are made by different manufacturers, but they both tend to reload in a similar fashion. They clear jams differently though.
Get in there!.. No, only joking.
So:
- he knew how to differentiate between fantasy and reality
- he knew he was killing actual people
- he was using his personal philosophy to justify killing
- he used his marksmanship training from the gun club to help him kill
How is this games' fault again?
Hmmm turning them into VGs and turn JBT loose on them?
If anyone knows how to sue dead people, it would be Jonathan Lee Riches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Lee_Riches
OMFG. You win this thread. YAY LITERATURE.
JT says he played Counter-Strike. The Washington Post's article originally was going to assert that claim, but it was pulled because there was no evidence of it whatsoever, the only game that ever had been identified as something the VT shooter played was Sonic.
A winrar is you!
Nietzche, along with countless other ethical philosphers, have demonstrated why religious dogma cannot serve as a consistent, desirable, or sufficent form of moral or metaphysical theory. Virtually any action can (and will) be "morally" justified through the process selective interpretation. The "moral compass" people claim to gain through religion amounts to little more than an articulation of secular values that have been posited into law. Bibilical values and religious dogma then form about the values posited by society and offer dynamically different interpretations. If anything, kids today are discovering a painfully obvious fact of the world: religious dogma tends to be as artifical, superstitious, and absurd as the bronze age tribesman who dreamed up the creatures of religious fiction. Perhaps we focus on instilling religious virtue too much in this nation: in actuality, kids need to be exposed to a wide range of belief systems that advocate ethical behavior. The possibilities are endless, but I've managed to digress even further off the point...
The values that intrest him (freedom and truth) logically contradict his terrible actions. The kid does not even know what he is talking about when it comes to philosophical systems! Do not attack a philosophical system that you scarcely understand, let alone judge the system by the actions of a foolish child.
Uh... you do realize that the first part of jonwanker's post was sarcastic, right? And no, Hitler wasn't really Christian, but jonwanker never even talked about that. All he said was that Hitler's misunderstanding and twisted application of Nietzsche's views has given Existentialism a bad name. Which is probably true, I don't know enough about Existentialism to say one way or another, but I do know that Hitler's occasional twisted use of certain Christian views still causes me annoyance today when I hear countless ignorant "Hitler was Christian" statements, so it doesn't surprise me that Hitler misinterpreted and twisted many other views.
this is a complete readout of this shooters youtube profile (quite long i might add):
"I am a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial socialdarwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.
SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM! JUSTITIA SUUM CUIQUE DISTRIBUIT! SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!
I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.
You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand... You will proprably say me that I am"insane", "crazy", "psychopath", "criminal" or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.
I have had enough. I don't want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing. But... When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name... When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets... When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice... When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority... In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.
Long live the revolution... revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can't alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.
I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true... even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil... I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.
And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don't blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don't blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don't blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks! "
now thompson, for once in your life why dont you just shut the fuck up and LISTEN to the reason of someone who was directly involved in this incident rather than trying to create a reason for him. obviously this guy was very messed up in the head, however even he states HIMSELF that what your trying to connect his actions to is irrelevant. why dont you take his words and accept them as the real reason for this and go back to living with your bullshit ideology under that rock you fit so well with.
and if you are so in-the-know on the subject of this guys reasoning and what influenced him to do such a thing, why dont you explain to us all which game will "train" you into thinking the way this guy thought? halo 3? manhunt 2? the sims? pokemon? i think everyone here would like to know what game caused this guy to go bonkers. because as we all know for a fact now, that if we can get it banned we can prevent this from ever happening again, right?
we are all still waiting on your answer to what game made this guy do the shooting.
Exactly! Holy hand grenades? There you have it!
Maybe someone should have reported his YouTube declarations and had him put in some kind of care. Again, there were plenty of warning signs saying this kid needed some help, and yet we turn a blind eye. He is to blame for the people he killed, but society's apathy is to blame for his death.
Why don't we care?
Needless to say there will still be people who say that his “training” in video games made him able to kill so efficiently.
He said he chose the name “Sturmgeist” because it means “storm spirit” in German.
The YouTube site indicated that the youth appeared to be fascinated with killing. It included video footage of the Columbine school shootings and the 1993 Waco siege in the United States, the 1995 sarin gas attack in Tokyo, and bombs falling on Baghdad during the 2003 invasion.
Besides that, the quote, "Don’t blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this." shows that he took personal responsibilty for his actions yesterday.
Once again, video games had nothing to do with a school shooting. You lose yet again, Jack. Maybe you’d be better served chasing a chupacabara than yet another massacre.
Two quotes. First, from the same link from Roadrunner Records, a quote from Sturmgeist frontman Cornelius von Jackhelln, which can be also said about video games:
Understandably, journalists keep calling me, eager to prove a link between my band and the massacre. However, as an artist, I can neither control the actions of my fans nor be held responsible for them.
“It is my firm conviction that if somebody wishes to go down as the cause of a massacre like that in Tuusula, explanations beyond music must be sought. In an interview with the Oslo-based newspaper Dagbladet today I argue that although extreme metal as a genre deals with topics such as isolation, misanthropy and despair, blaming the musicians is both wrong and unfair. It is people that kill people. Not music.
Second quote is from a deleted scene from the school shooting episode of the TV show One Tree Hill, by Brooke Davis(played by Sophia Bush) after a news reporter asked her how she was feeling(and the quote fits you perfectly, Jack) while the standoff was still going on:
“You should be ashamed of yourself. There are kids inside our school fearing for their lives right now, terrified that someone’s going to put a gun in their face and pull the trigger, and you want to know how I’m feeling?! Our pain is not a commodity for you, it’s not a newsbite to boost your ratings, because tomorrow, or the next day, or the next week when we go back to school, changed forever by a day that will never leave us, where are you going to be? At the next tragedy, thrusting your microphone in the face of the next fractured person, asking them how they feel? Lady, that is not journalism. You are not contributing anything to society. You’re buzzards circling the carnage, but you prey on the living. That is how I’m feeling, but something tells me that you’re not going to hear that.”
Videogames only exacerbate the aggressiveness of people who are already unable to distinguish reality from fantasy. They aren't the catalyst.
His comments, both YouTube and otherwise, show a clear and deep ingrained belief in bigotry and domination over others.
Of course, all we've seen so far is his recent life. He still had 18 years worth of life that we don't yet know about (and yes, I'm sure the abusers of tragedy will try to focus on one or two tiny things in his overall life while ignoring the rest).
Even limiting our arguments to his bigotry and the Nazi influence still doesn't paint the WHOLE picture of this guy. What various paths he followed to get to this point is just as important. Many are following, even in part, similar paths that are either taking them towards the same end or may be taking them down less violent paths, but still similar. Those differences, small or large, are a definite key that many so-called experts try to ignore while keeping the stereotypes and "profiles" alive.
Not everyone who has the same beliefs will come to commit the same actions. And that's what a lot of Massacre Chasers, Agenda Seekers, and Sensationalists ignore for whatever reason. Even we just simply call the guy crazy or insane. But there really is a lot more to it. Certainly more than any post or article can cover, but we still need to be aware of it and not simply think it just comes down to "crazy".
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
is saying that because everyone else (in his age group) was saying that? Or is he saying because he knows how the other school shooters felt like and sympathize with them and knows full well that media has nothing to do with his problems?
Or he's simply following (or improving) steps of what a school shooter should do?
Or he is influenced by media, but felt sympathy of not letting his favorite media take the axe along with him?
Actually, a number of school shooters have done the same. Even Eric and Dylan made a video saying not to blame their Parents or the music or other such for their actions.
But, as many have said, the Massacre chasers and Agenda Seekers ignore the WHOLE Truth for their own perverted, obscene goals.
NIghtwng2000
NW2K Software
@ BearDogg-X
Nice stuff there, good heavy evidence and support for the cause.
@ Bear
John B. Thompson, Attorney at Law
1172 S. Dixie Hwy., Suite 111
Coral Gables, Florida 33146
November 8, 2007
Sheriff Al Lamberti
Broward County Sheriff’s Department
2601 W. Broward Blvd.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33312
Re: Murders of Broward Sheriff Deputies and Other Law Enforcement Personnel
Dear Sheriff Lamberti:
I extend to you and everyone in your Department my condolences for your loss that comes with the latest murder of a Broward Sheriff’s Deputy, this time Deputy Paul Rein.
I should like to suggest that there is something your Department can do to reduce what will otherwise be a mounting body count of law enforcement officers killed throughout Florida and the nation.
A recent Time magazine article looked at the shocking increase in murders of police officers. What used to be a taboo is now becoming common. Note the below comment therein by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman who spends more than 300 days a year training law enforcement and military personnel:
“Other experts and activists cite the desensitizing effect of popular culture, most notably violent video games, as a key reason that more young people have no compunction about opening fire on a man or woman in uniform. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, author of On Combat and On Killing [nominated for a Pulitzer Prize], who trains the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, subscribes to that controversial notion. Grossman relates how officers raiding methamphetamine labs and gang hangouts often find violent video games left behind. ‘Every time they take down a gang house, there's always one thing that will always be there,’ Grossman says. ‘It's a video game. The video games are their newspaper, their television, their all-consuming narrative. And their video games are all cop-killer, criminal simulators.’” http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1666750,00.html
The video game industry is selling these cop-killing games to kids, and it brags that adults well into their forties are playing these violent games as well.
Unfortunately, I predicted this video game-linked cop-killing phenomenon two years ago when I appeared on CBS’ 60 Minutes. I represent three cops’ families whose loved ones were gunned down by an Alabama teen, with no criminal record, who killed them by wresting the arresting officer’s gun from him while in custody in the police station. This teen replicated precisely that specific scenario to grab the gun and kill the officers that is in the Grand Theft Auto: Vice City cop-killing game he had played up to sixteen hours a day. He was able to pull off this Houdini act because he had done it before in virtual reality.
This is the same way in which Deputy Rein was killed yesterday with a shot to the head. By the way, in this cop-killing simulation game made and distributed throughout Florida by Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc., of New York, the player gets extra points for shots to the head. I have met with Take-Two’s Chairman, Strauss Zelnick, who will not relent in his company’s reckless distribution of these products. Zelnick’s Grand Theft Auto IV is due out in a few months. It promises to be the most violent cop-killing simulation game ever.
After my above-note appearance on 60 Minutes, I have addressed law enforcement officers in Miami-Dade County about the commercial targeting of them by cop-killing simulation games, most notably GTA. I even wrote an article that appeared in the Florida Police Benevolent Association’s regular publication at the time. Public officials here in Florida have done absolutely nothing about the fact that a significant sector of the violent video game industry has made billions of dollars by painting bulls-eyes on the backs of our law enforcement officers. Bills in the Florida legislature to do something about this commercial targeting of cops have died in committees. This is unacceptable. It is outrageous. There has been no leadership in Tallahassee on this. Possibly Governor Crist, with whom I am copying this letter, who appointed you, will fill that vacuum.
I strongly encourage you, on behalf not only of your Department but on behalf of all law enforcement personnel in this state and around the country, to speak out about the impropriety of the video game industry’s targeting of law enforcement officers for death by the distribution of cop-killing simulators to teens and adults alike. On the aforementioned 60 Minutes piece, Ed Bradley reported an Oakland car theft gang that was using Grand Theft Auto as a carjacking simulator. Citizens were randomly shot by the gang, as in the game. Said one perp: “We played the game by day and lived the game by night.”
I have four experts who have testified before Congress about the causal link between these hyperviolent games and murders. One of them is the aforementioned Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. He and I and others stand ready to help in this regard.
Regards, Jack Thompson
Copies: John Rivera, PBA President
Governor Charlie Crist
Media
He same say it: Dont Blame Video Games.
Before you have the chance to, I will say it for you...
Monty Python did it! The killer trained to murder people by watching Monty Python dvd films!
p.s. Here Comes the Ambulance chasing.
A bunch of guys on 4chan called the cops after this guy posted about using pipe bombs at school.
http://www.news8austin.com/content/your_news/default.asp?ArID=191790
Gee, if I run toward massacres, then Dennis McCauley runs from them and the facts around them. I'm trying to stop them. Dennis couldn't care less.
@ BearDogg-X
I love that second quote. Sums up my opinion of most media (and massacre chasers) in general.
Two of them are videogames.
Videogames will be blamed.
Excellent quote.
Because that would make sense, and the media wouldn't be able to make a frenzy out of it.
Well said.You'll probably have to repeat it when Jack shows up.
I can't really speak for the Finnish school system but at least here in the U.S the mental health system in terms of college is kind of hit and miss. Part of it is that privacy laws prevent disclosure in allot of cases even to parents unless the child (over 18) gives there consent, so even if schools are trying to get mental help for a student parents might not be aware of it.
Also mental health services are also kind of hit and miss depending on the size of the university and surrounding area. So the health services can be good or bad dependent.
As for drugs, at least in my experience (only as a patient) once you get into more sever mental illness it get fairly easy to tell if you need drugs or not, the bigger problem is what drugs work the best with the least side effects and at what dosages. I was lucky I had (he's since passed away) an awesome psychiatrist that got a really good combo of drugs for my depression and anxiety early on, so I could actually talk to people. Again though that's a matter of finding a therapist and psychiatrist (if needed) that fit you. I've gone through 4 therapists before finding one I could work with.
Still though the mental health aspect will of course be ignored by everyone over here because that doesn't bring in ratings or sell newspapers.
Of course he'll care. He'll just say that the makers of Medal of Honor (never played the games to know who because there are seriously waaaaaaay too many WWII FPS's on the market for me to care about more than a couple of them) are in league with Zelnick, just like 'Bill Gates The Anti-Christ.'
Back when GP still used the LJ format, someone (I can't remember whom), said it best when mentioning media coverage of these events.
'Sources say his favorite games were BF2 and CounterStrike.'
'These sources also say his favorite cerals were Captain Crunch and Fruit Loops'
"Once all the public fear of video games is over, both statements will be treated as equally irrelevant."
First sign of a sociopath.
I think the final quote of Beardogg's post is the most significant. I suspect that that quote is the most true of all such individuals as this one. It's not that he sympathizes, but rather understands, in his own way, that they all have feelings which they feel they can't express for one reason or another. Very similar to the old "children should be seen and not heard". A lot of young folks feel angry, for a variety of reasons, and even expressing that anger verbally by actually saying WHY they are angry, comes off as a threat and they end up getting arrested or shoved into mental institutions or even ostracized for their thoughts. Even HE said he bottled up and spoke to no one about his feelings.
The moment people hear "I feel pissed", police are called, schools are locked down, and letters go to anyone and everyone about the evils of "pop culture". Nobody bothers to listen, let alone give a crap, as to WHY the person feels pissed. Yeah, we don't like his Neo-Nazi beliefs. Ok, so how did he get to the point of wanting to follow the Neo-Nazi beliefs?
We talk about the LaRouches and how they are a cult sucking young people in, brainwashing them with a line and that they can't argue their case beyond that line when counterarguments are made. But not everyone is like that. Many followers of the Neo-Nazi party blindly follow one another, ignoring, because of brainwashing, any counterarguments. Was this kid the same way? Or did anyone even TRY to counterargue him? The moment people heard his beliefs, did they merely threaten to call the police? Or did they try to intelligently argue against his arguments first?
A lot of young people have recently heard plenty of "Oh my gosh! They said how they feel now they are being arrested or suspended! I need to bottle up my own feelings and beliefs too!"
Children should be seen and not heard.
Yup, congratulations to soceity. Hurry up and blame "pop culture" before people realize where some of the REAL problems started.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
And that's really going to stop people from citing them...
Ahh, that classic line. I am inclined to agree with you sir.
I am very curious as to how the media and anti-game people/groups will address his admission that movies/music/games are not to blame.
My gut says they will say he didn't know what he was talking about because he was in a hyper-reality state and not making clear decisions.
Even though this guy took responsibility himself, that will be stripped out of the equation.
this kid does look troubled, even kinda emo in a way
it seems he likes violent movies and music more than violent videogames. (battlefront 2 ain't that violent/bloody)
guess this is proof that there are other factors besides video games that could possibly cause some troubled kid like him to go on a shooting spree.
I'm sure some idiots will jump on the school map thing, even though it was apparently not made by the killer. You map what's familiar. If I was any good at modding, I would have mapped my university's engineering & agriculture buildings. Eng is a maze of small short hallways, and Ag is a series of hallways all surrounding an 8-story atrium. With both connected via outside paths and skywalks.
All absolutely true of course, however if we actually started to care about the problems in society, like hunger, disease, poverty, homelessness, lack of education, lack of jobs, and my list could go on. Then those in congress and the senate would have to actually spend time on real issue rather than their reelection campaigns, private projects, and posturing to look tough. Why they might run the risk of only serving for a single term and we can't have that can we?
Is that as sarcastic as I wanted it to be or just pissy?
Ever notice how these people who supposedly have odd culture wars with everyone but themselves always manage to end up killing themselves afterward?
I think it's the act that they feel is significant. Much in the same way that suicide bombers feel they are actually accomplishing something concrete.
If they are alive afterwards, they can be strung up and ridiculed, or die in obscurity in prison. If they die during the act, then their message is what is left, not them.
*grin* Mr. Nightwng2000, you win the Internet today.
I should have that printed and framed. In bright neon letters so dumbasses will read it.
Of course, had he used the "video games made me do it" defense, you know Jack would jump all over that as undeniable proof that the games are to blame, regardless of his mental state.
Either way, he wins (in his mind at least).
If anything, non-fiction political works would have a bigger influence on his way of thinking.
"And that’s really going to stop people from citing them…"
Aren't there rules keeping legit journalists from acting like "scoopers" for supermarket tabloids?
There was also another convicted criminal that said "don't blame games" after he appeared in court a few years back. Don't know exactly what happened to him...
Yes, he played games too, but which 18-year old doesn't these days? He was very smart and a straight-A student, but he was also a long-time victim of school bullying and apparently took anti-depressant drugs. The gun he had was .22 handgun for which he got permit three weeks ago. He also applied for a permit to get 9mm pistol, but his application was denied by the police since it was deemed too powerful for his shooting hobby. Most of the guns in Finland are hunting rifles and shotguns and to own a handgun you have to belong to a shooting club. His club actually gave him the recommendation needed to get his gun.
I don't think there will be any link to games in the media here. I think they are more interested in why nobody noticed anything before this happened and how he got so troubled in the first place. He shared his thoughts and opinions openly and actively on the internet and even in real life, but nobody really thought that he was serious. I guess no one wants to believe that someone you know could do something like that.
However, there's an old saying:
"Give a man enough rope and he'll hang himself"
I dont think JT wants to be that man
I do remember that. But if I recall correctly, it wasn't widely reported at the time, unlike in this case, and it wasn't known until a few years after the fact.
I'm right with you on your earlier posts, but I don't think we really have to look that deeply. The common factor in the personalities of all these people is an extreme case of nihilism. They feel alone and angry, and that there is nothing in the world for them. They look around and see idiocy, hypocrisy and people asserting their superiority over others. They're sick of it and want to lash out. And because they've largely eschewed religion, they probably don't realize the value of human life; believing as some extreme secularists and atheists do that humans aren't really that much different from animals (Which is true to a point. There are key differences, however). And because they're still relatively young and blinded by anger, they haven't thought through the consequences of their actions. If video games contributed anything at all, it's that they merely fed and reinforced these individuals disregard for for human life. But I have to stress, these people were alredy disturbed well beforehand.
I think that's also why all of them commit suicide later, as the consequences of their actions haven't hit them until after the fact. They realize what they've done and, realizing that their life is totally screwed now, see no other way out and kill themselves. That or they know beforehand what they will do will totally mess up their lives and are prepared for it later. This kind of mental preparedness to die seems much like the mindset of a suicide bomber, minus the faith aspect of course.
Chris Cornell actually wrote a song that tried to address what makes people go out and do these things, it's called "No Such Thing." Check it out.
And this is really what it's all about. This has not been about video games and never was, at least not with JT. It's his belief our so-called "Godless society" and what it stands for that he believes breeds people like this. And it's also why he continually goes around saying he's persecuted for his faith because he sees his religion as under attack by it. Remember what he said about the Metalgearsolid.org suicide? "You can fill your heart with things of God and things not of God." So according to him and people of his ilk, living a secular lifestyle is what creates these people. That's why he hates us too, becuase he sees us as like them and makes no distinction.
Like I said, I used to be religous myself. I was born into a Catholic family that later converted to Episcopalianism. In my teens I became "Born Again" and ran around with Young Life and Campus Crusade for Christ for a time. Then one day I woke up and realized that it didn't fit in with how what I had experienced of the world worked. It was limiting me to other points of view that might be better, and it was making me look like a narrow-minded asshole. When I realized that, I walked away and never looked back, and now I live a lifestyle that I think is more honest with who I am.
If religion left me with anything at all, it was a moral compass, which those people apparently didn't have. The core concept of Christianity as I understand it is, "Be a good person. Dont be an asshole." In some ways then, I consder myself to be more "Christian" than what JT and others like him profess to be.
Look at his books, his movies, his interests. This guy wasn't an idiot. He actually seems pretty intelligent...just troubled. Which is a shame.
We should be looking over his profile as a whole - an 18 year old who lists his primary interests as guns, BSDM, serial killers and existentialism clearly is not a balance individual with society's interests at heart. With this being Finland, hopefully some meaningful debate will take place, but I doubt much of it will filter back to the media whores in the US.
"He also lists Mass/Serial Killers as an interest. Shouldn’t someone have seen the signs?'
On it's own that doesn't mean much, how many millions of non-murderous people have an interest in Jack the Ripper? (Speaking of whom, I don't remember any prostitute-killing Grand Theft Auto in those days...)
When put with all the rest of it though you clearly have a person with a very screwed view of the world, who was already like he was before all the violent media. No, it can't have helped, but almost everything I watch or play is violent, I suppose you could consider me depressed and I have some unpopular views on the world in general, and I don't seem to have shot anyone lately.
If and when JT decides to have a go at this one, it seems clear to me that all of the other influences are VERY OBVIOUSLY at LEAST as much to blame as games, and so his 'single out the games' tactic is even less justified than usual. But hey, surely we expect that by now?
Reading his likes, I have to say that I share many of them. I have no desire to hurt anyone though. Keep it in the games, people.
Steinhauser was expelled from school, Cho was a loner, and this guy was a plain old nazi nutjob. Deal with it Jack. I bet they all drank soda, and ate food, too.