Strange. I'm Christian, and I think both the CFTC and Pandralisk are idiots. Can't imagine why...

@Pandralisk

You get a free pass on the whole bible thumping thing since they actually are bible thumpers this time (broken clocks, right twice a day, and all that). However, unlike Yee and friends, you may notice that the wingnuts aren't asking for a law here. They're asking the industries to voluntarily start being more family friendly.

And, last I checked, the First Amendment protects consumers' right to tell companies what kind of product they would like...

@Ashton

he's still said he's not atheist, to semi-quote him: "Trying to prove there isn't a higher force is just as impossible as trying to prove there is one."

@Twin-Skies

Sitting on a pile of gold, drinking wine from Holy Grails from Ubisoft.

@ Jack Thompson, propogandist

Gee, Dennis, I guess that would make you a self-appointed video game industry tool.

The issue, for those who are paying attention, is whether a game banned for sale to adults should be sold to teens in this country. Go to BestBuy.com, and note that Manhunt 2 is being sold to anyone of any age with no age verification whatsoever. None.

Lets see how much idiocy we can correct here...

1.) Manhunt 2 has not been banned for sale to adults - the AO version wasn't even banned for sale to adults, most stores just refuse to carry it (it's a defacto ban, not a REAL ban). The M version isn't even "banned" for sale to teens, it's just not recommended for them.

2.) Credit Card age verification is acceptable according to the FCC. Duh.

3.) Dennis is reporting on the industry itself - he's not a tool for the industry (nice try at the dual-use of tool, but it's old and lame), he's a reporter. He reports on the good and the bad. He works for the ECA, a CONSUMER group. C-O-N-S-U-M-E-R. Get it right, moron.

Evidently we are seeing this from a guy that is not smart enough to know that you are killing bad guys in Manhunt 2.

Not innocent people.

It would seem strange that innocent people are hunting you down so they can kill you.

A few things I'd like to point out to this dickhead:

-Manhunt isn't a first person shooter, it's a 3rd person stealth/horror game
-The game isn't FOR children and any half educated person knows this
-You don't kill innocent people, you kill bad guys
-These delusional religious tossers need to clean up their own backyard before they targeting something they have absolutely no idea about. For god sake at least inform yourself before you spurt out such garbage.
-Fuck off we live in a secular state and not everybody shares your delusional ultra-conservative religious views. Why do these morons always insist on trying to merge church and state? Once again, fuck off please.

That is all.

Looks like Thompson is the only game-related entity this person listens to. This is NOT an FPS, you're killing CRIMINALS, it's NOT for children, and most importantly:

Church =/= State.

It's not 1966 anymore, it's 2007.

Hey, I have an idea...while we're trying to force the Entertainment industry to conform to outdated religious ideals, why don't we just turn the ol' Time Machine Dial right back to the Dark Ages...You know the time when everything that went against Church Docterine was Heresy and everyone enjoyed a good wholesome Witch Hunt and subsequent Burning.

Mr. Baehr are teh fail.

Well, this is flame bait for Pandralisk. I need to get my comments in before he shows up and ruins the party.

It looks like the band wagon has moved on and this guy was a little late and trying to catch up.

Unlike other first-person shooters where you are protecting yourself, in Manhunt 2, you are seeking innocent victims. It teaches susceptible children to commit sadistic violence.

Boy, so much wrong with that statement. Where to begin? I know:

1. Manhunt two is third person not first person.
2. Manhunt is a stealth game not a shooter.
3. The "victims" are not innocent. They are trying to kill you.
4. It does not teach anything.
5. It is not meant for children. The M rating should be a dead give away. (pun intended)

The industry as a whole does not have to have any standards. For this guys information, only 8% of the game rated last year were M rated. 69% of the games rated last year were E and E10. So where is this guy getting off saying we don't have values?

Yet another episode of self-righteous, so-called "religious leaders" thinking they know what's best for the pulpit.

I may be a Catholic, but I'm offended that people like Baehr - despite all their gross ignorance - think that they can impose upon fellow churchgoers what we're supposed to watch, or think for that matter.


"GP: Baehr is more than a bit late to the Manhunt 2 bashing party. Beyond that, it’s a bit scary to think that the artistic vision of a film - or a game, for that matter - might be required to pass through a religious filter."

It's happening in Iran, right? It's amusing how the CFTC tries to promote Christian values, and inavertedly ends up becoming what it's supposed to be fighting - misguided zealots.

@nightwng2000

Just visited their site.

Sweet Jesus...would probably bitch-slap them for being the conservative firebrands they've proven to be in their writing.

Even a priest friend over in my old college (a Jesuit, mind you) doesn't mind nudity or R-rated films, provided they're used for perfectly good reasons within the story context.

Am I to assume that CFTC is an influential entity over there in the US, or are they just latching onto Manhunt 2 for controversy (and publicity's) sake?

If Jesus were alive today, he'd be a gamer. He may own a Wii, but he'd be a gamer never the less.

There's some criticism of Baehr and Movieguide (a source for film reviews owned and operated by Baehr ) as suffering from a conflict of interest for routinely accepting money from studios whose films were positively reviewed by Movieguide. Baehr's response was, in essence, "I'm a lobbyist, not a shill."

Sometimes, after I consider the obvious hypocrisy of so many self-professed Christians (including my personal favorite Born Again, Jack Thompson) I can't help but believe the Romans had it right: Throw them to the lions!

I pretty much stopped at "first person shooter". According to watchdog groups, FPses are the only type of violent game in existence.

Sorry for the double post.

From their petition: "We the undersigned are disappointed in Sony Entertainment and Nintendo..."

You know, when I was a kid, that phrase always worked on me when I did something wrong. I somehow don't think it's going to work on two enormous corporations. They should include a wagging finger on their petition.

[...] Source: Manhunt 2 Slammed by Christian Values Media Advocate Bookmark it: [...]

This just in:

Manhunt 2 condemned by ___________. Nobody shocked. News at 11.

If we could just get everyone who wants to say the same damn thing about Manhunt 2 to sign a list, we could create a template letter and stop wasting everyone's time.

Haha, oh yes, perhaps the ramblings of the Pandralisk do not appear so crazy now!

When a group of superstitious pigs tries to strip myself and all other people of moral autonomy and personal liberty I am inclined to reply. But I'd like you to remember, I am not doing the flaming here. It is the choice of these Bible thumping morons to shove their bullshit belief systems down the throats of people. I am perfectly willing to allow them to worship their hateful God in peace. They cannot live with the idea of personal freedom and autonomy for adults; this is why I post and posit true values on their absurd conception of God.

Standards? The entertainment industry has moved to embrace REAL standards: namely, allowing an artistic to create any form of media they wish. We have replaced superstitious hate with personal liberty. Try to live with this, Bible thumping pigs.

YOUR STANDARDS ARE NOT UNIVERSAL.

After 1966, America liberated itself from Christian hate and censorship by telling superstitious pigs to shove their bullshit and absurd values back where they belong: up the asses of those gullible and feeble minded enough to believe such nonsense. It's sick enough that a handful of people who worship a racist, infanticidal, genocidal, sado-masochistic, and deluded monster believe that their metaphysically absurd ideas should govern our values. It worse when the same Bible thumping pigs see fit to rape us of our liberty [something that they take for granted in this country].

News Flash, Moronic Christian Activists: Society does not share your backward, evil, and superstitious standards. Many people LOVE fictional depecitions of violence and sex; and there is nothing perverse, wrong, or damaging about it. Keep your superstition and hate where it belongs.

As you can see, a great deal of critcism toward this industry does not emerge from overprotective parents, but from the tyrannical moral policing of the facist, bible thumping, sects of evangelical Christians. These sick, freedom-raping, individuals will stop at nothing in their quest to strip you of your moral autonomy and personal freedom. I've tried to point this out to you before. Most of the critics of the industry, especially the damaging ones, subscribe to this same brand of theological moral facism.

A minority of parenting and secular critics exist, but the aforementioned minority simply desires to make adult games harder to get for children. JT and the hordes of evangelical morons want to police and destroy the content of games. They seek to control and destroy the artistic freedom of the industry itself.

I've "discovered" (not originally) an interesting dynamic at work in stories like this. Liberals enjoy or at least are OK with entertainment that reflects values they do not hold, or even which they opposed. Conservatives don't, as a group they only consume media who's message conforms with their own views. Many researchers agree on those points, I think.

A liberal mind would see value in entertainment that presents a sadistic point of view. Sadism is hard to understand. Without being sadistic, it's almost impossible to understand. But, one really can't just try it out under normal circumstances, even though insight into sadism might give one better tools to address it. The liberal mind thinks it might be able to get this insight from safe surrogates, like entertainment.

A conservative mind sees no value. It thinks that the only person that could enjoy a story told from a sadists point of view would themselves be a sadist. Conservatives as a group say they do not think they can learn from entertainment. They say they avoid entertainment with a political message, because they are afraid it might be a liberal message. It is as though they are afraid that being exposed to other points of view will alter their own point of view. (Which, of course, one would hope to be true in most cases, at least to a small degree.) But here they seem to think that being exposed to a sadistic point of view will make them (or, actually, people will less moral fiber than them) into sadists.

I don't think sadism itself is a point of view, though a character can have a point of view that is influenced by their sadism. I don't think sadism is an idea that can be transmitted in this manner, like Mother's Day or democracy can. I think the fears are unfounded, and reflect a dysfunctional way of dealing with the world.

NEWSFLASH!

No matter what you may or may not think about this game, and or the ability to learn behavior from games in general, the game can't possibly teach children anything IF YOU DON'T BUY IT FOR THEM, AS RECOMMENDED BY THE "M FOR MATURE" RATING!!!

@Pandralisk

People like Baehr don't represent the sentiments of all Christians.

If anything, he's like some whacked out black sheep of the family that's better left to wallow in his fundamentalist delusions, never to be invited to the yearly Turkey carvings.

@ Twin-Skies

Why do you say that? Because he is faithful and acknowledges his duty, supposdely annoited by God, to cleanse the world of "sin" and Godless immorality?

I might agree with your point if the Bible presented a divine imperative along the lines of, "honor the religious faiths of all other people and keep the word among only those who wish to believe in it." But, sadly, the Bible asks a far different thing of believers. He seems to be a wonderful example of true values derived, and applied, from the Bible. Not all Christians hate the concept of personal freedom, but I do not think that a Christian competent in Biblical study could call a believer like Baehr insane, whacked out, or not acting in accord with scripture.

@Pandralisk

Nope, this rant is as crazy and absurd as any of your earliers rants.

This guy, and Jack T. are no christians. They're just power-hungry goose-stepping morons who uses the bibles to justify their actions.

@Pandralisk

Nope, this rant is as crazy and absurd as any of your earliers rants.

This guy, and Jack T. are no christians. They're just power-hungry goose-stepping morons who uses the Bible to justify their actions.

In Québec, even priest let the young generation live without trying to censor their activities. Even movies rated R in the US are rated 13+ in Québec (like Total Eclipse).

@Pandralisk-JT

It's still very crazy because you base an entire religion on one man. Here, let's do you! You're atheist? FROM NOW ON ALL ATHEISTS ARE SELF-IMPORTANT JT-LIKE ASSHOLES BECAUSE P-JT IS!

"A liberal mind would see value in entertainment that presents a sadistic point of view." With this game, no, I don't. FPS, sure, horror films, yes, but Manhunt 2, no, I don't understand.

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU SICK LITTLE TROLL, SPAWNED FROM THOMPSON'S ANUS! Nobody what's to hear or, or have you here. You are exactly like Jack Thompson, except you go after religion. But other than that, you are just like him.

@ Killed

I remind you, I am not trying to take aways ANY freedom of religious facists. I am perfectly willing to let them practice their superstition in peace; provided that their practice does not physically harm or exact censorship over others.

Hate filled? I need not hate Christians to posit values CONTAINED IN THE BIBLE on their object of worship. You see phrases like, "God is guilty of child killing and genocide," and immediately think -- "evil, Christian hating, Pandralisk."

I am not dreaming those statements up! No hate is involved! They're all in the Bible! Along with enforcing and spreading Biblical norms by ANY means neccessary! It's all in the Bible, people. Christians like the ones described in this article are devote, sincere, and biblically justified in their attack on our moral autonomy. That's the scary part!

Of course they are. It's a two thousand year old book, written at a time when that particular type of moral behaviour (infanticide, repression of women, eye for an eye etc) were completely reasonable.

If you're an aethiest (as I am), then you don't believe the book was divinely inspired. In which case, then why would you expect that book to be written from the perspective of a 21st century Western moral code?

@Nekowolf

You do not identify the validity of my argumentive points or realize my intent. I do not seek to destroy or injure the religious rights of Christians. They, like all other autonomous beings, are free to practice their perverse religion in peace. I only seek to defend the rights of gamers, and I do so by challenging the validity of two major points. If you've noticed something, about half of my critcism is directed at the concept of God and universalizing moral norms from such an absurd [and morally perverse] idea. It's absolutely insane. The second half of the argument deals with Christians who strike down the freedom of others.

CENTRAL PROBLEM: I am not abstracting a sterotype for Christians from one person; instead, I am turning to Biblical scripture and abstracting beliefs directly from it. Unlike Christian dogma, a central text -- said to be a divinely oriented facet of the natural world -- does not authoratatively identify or justify my agnostic ideals. Your analogy falls apart. Christian faith is held together, no matter the beliefs, by a central unifying text: the holy Bible.

All forms of Christian truth are derived from this text. The text itself can be interpreted in virtually any way possible. Literal interpretations [the most valid form of interpretation] can be used to justify striking down gaming laws, raping women, killing innocents, or virtually any other way Christians wish. Many Christians have enough sense to not do such horrible things, but their actions do not excuse the faith of its self-contained values.

My arguments against universaling Christian values are constructed around the religious text that unifies, justifies, and defines the religion. I am sorry if the Bible is such a perverse, morally disgusting, and hateful tomb of superstition. Try reading it for once in an objective manner: nothing will make you question faith faster.

Pandralisk,
Stepping in here I know, but the problem with your arguments is the all-encompassing sweep that you do. Even I argue against religion, but I, as many others, do a very narrow focus on the problem individuals/groups.

"I remind you, I am not trying to take aways ANY freedom of religious facists. I am perfectly willing to let them practice their superstition in peace; provided that their practice does not physically harm or exact censorship over others. "

And here you have pointed out the problem with your argument. Even those practicing an honorable, respectable religious format have been swept up by your broad inclusions of "Christians" as a whole.

It's the same type of argument that people made about Muslims, lumping in the whole religion with terrorists.

I wouldn't blame all of Christianity for Eric Rudolph, Fred Phelps, or John Bruce "Jack" Thompson. I wouldn't absolutely blame all their specific church members, though it would be more reasonable to (especially in regards to Fred Phelps).

Really, you have valid outrage. I've been ticked off at higher ups in the Catholic church who covered up known child molestors. You may not be able to link religion to the actual child molesting priests, but certainly you can put some serious linkage to religion and the higher ups covering up. But would I accuse all Catholics of being child molestors or even being advocates for the child molesting priests or the higher ups who covered it up? Not possible.

The problem is you're just too broad sweeping and missing the fact that you could just as easily be a victim of someone else's broad sweeps (much more commonly known as "stereotypes").

You've got a very valid argument that can be made against this organization and their specific religious beliefs and actions. Don't lose the focus of the organization and its members.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

Pandralisk actually has some valid points, he just presents them in really onesided and immature ways.

If you actually go and look through the Bible, most of what Pandralisk mentions is indeed true. However, as others have said, generalizing every Christian based on the actions of a few is quite ignorant. Also, it IS a very old book; I don't believe modern day Christians actually believe and endorse everything word for word. Whether or not Pandralisk actually thinks EVERY Christian is a "Bible thumping pig" is up for debate, though he certainly gives that impression.

I, too, dislike most of Christianity's ideals and "morals" and believe it is a very corrupt and outdated system, but I judge each person based on how they treat me and those around them, not based on their belief system, regardless if how much I disagree with it.

Oh dear god, (pardon the pun), he used 'GG'. Tard alert. The nickname should have been a fair enough warning.

I'm out. Have fun storming the castle!

@Pandralisk

No, your ramblings don't look less crazy. I'm not a christian and even I find your bile offensive.

@Nightwng2000

You do not seem to understand that JT and other Biblical activists are morally justified by the central text that identifies Christian beliefs. I attack their universalization of norms [and subsequent censorship] from the Bible itself.

When you see a phrase like "Christian hate," the term is meant to imply hate that is wrought from the Bible and applied by the Christians I am critcizing. I truly believe Christianity to be a perverse, metaphysically insane, and morally ambigious religion; but I do not go so far as to identify all Christians as facist freedom-hating morons. "Moral" Christians are good people, who resist the demands of their religious superstition, and practice a strange [but much better] brand of morality.

The sad thing is that "moral" Christians are not acting in accordance with scripture. This sounds like a charge an insane evangelical might conjure up, but the Bible -- the central text from which all religious truth is derived from for Christians -- clearly demands actions along the lines of censorship and forced conversion. "Moral" Christians try to skirt this problem by selectively ignoring portions of the text, creating abstract and counterintuitive intereptations, or painting the evangelicals as crazy or ignorant of scripture.

The problem is that evangelicals are NOT ignorant of scripture: they're perverse and insane enough to willingly understand and believe it.

@A. Bascle

In my case, "biblical study" was based more on reading up on the theological research papers written by more recent scholars. While we did reference the bible, it was still very limited -the priests I knew were guarded about taking its messages too far.

If Pandralisk wants ataste of how Catholics are keeping the faith lately, he may want to get his hands on the Dei Verbum.

@ Pandralisk

Nope, you are still crazy. You are a stereotyping bigot. Have fun.

By the way, I am a Christian. I beleive that the Bible contains the word of God. Not in perfection or in whole, but the word of God is in there. I also believe that God continues to reveal his word to prophets today. These prophets have spoken against violent and pornopgraphic entertainment, but have never called for regional, national nor world wide censor ship. They have counselled their followers to avoid these.

So you can take you bigotry with you and leave.

[...] Take this story for instance. Gamepolitics reported this morning that Ted Baehr, a Christian media critic, recently told the Washington Times that ‘Manhunt 2′ should have its ‘AO’ rating restored. Calling it a first-person shooter(!) where the goal is to kill innocent victims(!?), he claimed that “it teaches susceptible children to commit sadistic violence.” Because video games are solely for children. Right. [...]

that guy dont know shit about that game he should get his facts straight

having a religious censor is actually worse than a govenmental censor

take your fascism and leave the country its the home of the free not the home of the free with a religious censor asshole

@

"If you want to think that. I know Christians who DO NOT think that is the case. I know Christians who think it is not necessarily the word of God, and who believe you should not base your life around it, who feel you should learn from it instead."

I know of the same Christians. And, my, do they form an incredible logical contradiction. Questioning the validity of the text that grants their beliefs validity, form, and authority in the first place... Whew. I'll leave you to wrap your mind around that one.

Call the person with a valid point a "flamer" or "troll" as much you wish. It does not excuse a level of critcism that has yet to be adequately addressed. I will leave you now to reflect on one of the following ideas:

1. You may not be a beliver but might simply be ignorant of the fact that many Christians are trying to rape you of your freedom. And the further fact that this action is sanctioned, and demanded, by their religious beliefs. It is instrinsic to the religion itself.

2. You might be a Christian and agree with the notion that religious norms should censor content in media. If so, I wish to remind you that your God is a murderous, rapist, racist, homophobe lying, infanticidal, ethnocidal, genocidal, sado-masochist, torturous, and fictional monster (who is guilty of more crimes against humanity than Stalin, Hitler, and Mao combined, and multiplied by an expodential of one million). Do you really want to derive moral values, and your own personal religious beliefs, from such a sick and made up idea?

3. You might be a Christian and reject the notion that religious norms should censor content in media. If so, I would like to remind you that your religious beliefs are derived from a central text that DEMANDS you to commit such an action. You might chose to ignore such a demand, but how can your choice excuse the validity of the religious creed itself? And if you chose to omit such obligations, how do you reconcile this first with your faith; and then with the religious ideas that you've already assumed to be true? How do you know what you know? You don't.

Try and wiggle your way out of this delimma. Ciao.

Pandralisk,
I do understand. Indeed, my own arguments have pointed out that such individuals translate, interpret, and preceive religious text to suit their own needs.

I've, in fact, used the argument that, while some say "Man is created in the image of God", I submit that "God is created in the image of the individual worshipper". Incredibly, it appears that each individual's "God" seems to have the EXACT same beliefs as the worshipper. They have found "their God".

Yet, the very same religious text can be used to argue a different belief to a different worshipper. Look at a larger scale of those of the Baptist convention versus other Baptists who don't hold the same "gays are abominations" as those of the Baptist Convention. Same text, different interpretations and preceptions. Incredibly, the same "God" who supposedly wrote the same Bible for both actually meant two different things to each group.

The written text isn't what's to blame. It's the individuals/groups who interpret for their own purposes that are to blame for how the religious text are interpreted. Just because someone else has the same religious text doesn't mean they will follow the same interpretation.

Yes, there are individuals and groups of various religious beliefs that are guilty of a great many abuses, some small, some horrific. But I wouldn't sweep the entire religion as being guilty of those abuses simply because a few who label themselves as followers of that religion advocate or partake in those abuses.

I would no more advocate the sins of the father being passed on to their child than I would advocate the sins of one automatically being passed on to another member of that .

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

I don't think I've ever seen an example of fundamentalism that was good. That includes atheist fundamentalism.

I think from now on people that want to criticize a game (even if its overrated crap) should be forced to at least play the game for an hour and not base their judgments on something they read.

"Call the person with a valid point a “flamer” or “troll” as much you wish."

No, you may have a few valid points, but I call you that because you are. Just from how you present it, you are. If you cannot figure that out, if you cannot consider that as true, then my god, you have a serious god complex.

1. No, it's not. Religion is what you make of it, not what it makes of you. The problem here, is not the religion. It's people.

2. You are an atheist, right? So, this: "murderous, rapist, racist, homophobe lying, infanticidal, ethnocidal, genocidal, sado-masochist, torturous, and fictional monster" none of that ever happened. So, in context, this line: "who is guilty of more crimes against humanity than Stalin, Hitler, and Mao combined, and multiplied by an expodential of one million" cannot be true, because, you just said none of that ever happened; how can a fictional "monster" kill, rape, torture, etc. It can't, PEOPLE do, again.

"Do you really want to derive moral values, and your own personal religious beliefs, from such a sick and made up idea?" Our history is. All of history is. You can derive "moral values" and stuff from that, it's a matter of action and non-action. You can believe in Christianity, and not turn into some killer. But apparently, you believe that is not possible. And a killer can play video games and claim they made him do it. If you cannot figure out what that has to do, then, I'm not going to explain to you, your own lost.

3. This argument makes no sense. You can believe the Bible never happened, and be Christian, and ALSO still believe, though, that lessons can be learned from it. What are you not understanding about this? If you don't care what others think of your belief, you can believe whatever you want. What are they going to do, say you're gonna burn in Hell? Some threat. Even if you believe in Hell, you can just shrug it off, as you can consider them bigots.

Your argument is horseshit. Because it's not religion, it's people. And you do nothing but stereotype every Christian.

There, that wasn't actually too hard to "wiggle out of." You're representation and argument that the religion is some great evil is so greatly flawed, that wasn't too hard at all.

See, the thing is that we take many of our religious beliefs from the Bible. We don't necessarily believe everything that is contained in it, because we realize that the times have changed, and thus so must our morals.

Religious beliefs =/= morals. Morals are a societal concept. I'm happy that I was raised Christian, because it gave me a strong set of beliefs on which I can further develop my own morals. Back in those days, during the times in which the Bible encompasses, many of the acts that happened were considered normal by -society-. Since the Bible was eventually translated by man, there is bound to be 1. error, and 2. human influence.

Society changes, and thus so does what we accept to be 'moral.'
You're bundling every Chrisitian into the category of Fundamentalism - those who believe every little thing in the Bible to be the word of God, to the letter. This includes hating homosexuals, for example. Many other sects within Christianity have their own sets of beliefs.

God gave people the Bible to teach them about life. He wants people to fear and love him, to know that he's their salvation and also creator. In the book, in order to show both, both sides of that coin are presented. There are passages where God takes someone into his arms, and there are passages in which he smites the non-believers.
(I hope this doesn't sound like I'm devout or anything...far from it. That felt rather weird to type, anyway. :P )

But anyway...one of my major problems with fundamentalist Christians is that they take God's message of "Spread the Word" to mean "Annoy the shit out of people." People like the CFTC.

Though, Pandralisk, you're sorta doing the same thing.

Just to clear something up, Pandralisk once said he isn't athiest. He's never said that he doesn't believe in God.

@ SLIPSLOPSLAP

"-Manhunt isn’t a first person shooter, it’s a 3rd person stealth/horror game
-The game isn’t FOR children and any half educated person knows this
-You don’t kill innocent people, you kill bad guys
-These delusional religious tossers need to clean up their own backyard before they targeting something they have absolutely no idea about. For god sake at least inform yourself before you spurt out such garbage.
-Fuck off we live in a secular state and not everybody shares your delusional ultra-conservative religious views. Why do these morons always insist on trying to merge church and state? Once again, fuck off please."

Damn, dude. You pretty much read my mind, point by point =)

"You might be a Christian and reject the notion that religious norms should censor content in media. If so, I would like to remind you that your religious beliefs are derived from a central text that DEMANDS you to commit such an action. You might chose to ignore such a demand, but how can your choice excuse the validity of the religious creed itself? And if you chose to omit such obligations, how do you reconcile this first with your faith; and then with the religious ideas that you’ve already assumed to be true? How do you know what you know? You don’t."

You fail to realise that Christianity is based around a book. A book which one can choose to ignore. That is just what I have done.

Does this turn me from God? No, it just turns me from the mainstream.

One interesting fact about the old religion based system for rating movies etc is, of course, the fact that every religion involved in it was....Christianity. What will happen in a more modern society, where religions such as Buddhism, Hindu and Islam are also a part of American society, do these factions get a say? And what happens when there is a clash of opinion.

The reason the Church voluntarily withdrew from censoring movies is because it was apparent that such a system was a one-sided coin that promoted manipulation, they didn't do it out of the kindness of their hearts, they did it because the system was broken, and so was the First Amendment.

@ Sean

It is my impression that Padralisk is probably a choir boy at his local parish who post the stuff he does for "lulz"

@Sean

He's called God 'fictional' and religion 'superstition' in more than one case. Sounds Atheist to me.

Fact: Conservative Christians always and still maintain 0% credibility. And Compassionate Conservative is an oxymoron, oy. In order to become more like God, they act contrary to most of his teachings. Want examples? Google Conservative christian hypocricy. I bet there are results in the millions (slight exaggeration, oy).

@Tye

1,560,000 exactly.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4SUNA_en_...

Dark Sovereign,
God only knows.

...

Ok, I'll leave the puns to the experts.

:)

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

@Tye, Dark Sovereign: Search for 'Conservative Christian' and 'God Conspiracy.'
...and Metallica.

@Nightwing

"Hitler's Revival"?

^ agree with Phoenix
this pandralisk guy has no influence in media, unlike John Bruce. so we can safely ignore him. IMO anyway. He's doing what many other bible haters do, pick and choose text and mold them, changes their meaning to try to prove they are right.

@Nightwing

Ditto.

YYaaawwnnnn. Someone wake me when something important happens. This is just boring. They are to little and to late jumping on the bandwagon. Their religion is just that, theirs. Lets do all a favor and keep the church and the state seperate. Besides if they don't like the thing then just don't buy it.

Speaking of bandwagons I am joining the one that is ignoring pandralisk (already have been acutally). Never understood the whole idea of an agressive atheist. Ok so you do not beleive. That is fine but why try to stop others? No one here is trying to convert you to religion afterall. Methinks he doth protest to much. Last time I heard anyone go on about someone like that was someone in the closet bashing on gays/lesbians. Stop slaming a thing you profess not to beleive in.

Can someone explain how following a modern religion is ANY different than worshipping Ra, Odin, Zeus, Ahken, Ishtar, etc?

Also, the real issue here is that many religious people are trying to make their beliefs the basis for modern LAWS that affect EVERYONE. That's what pisses me and other "non-believers" off.

I'm SICK AND TIRED of christians trying to force their values on me.
I'm tired of their assault on science (evolution, the solar system, etc.). I'm tired of being called a "fornicator" and "sinner" for having sex with my girlfriend.
I'm tired of being called a murderer for playing videogames.

Whatever happened to separation of church and state? Why do christians want to LEGISLATE "MORALITY"?

I am staying out of this religious crap, I am so tired of debating about this.

@Zerodash

And I'm tired of being lumped into a mass category. We are people, not a collective. We have all of our own beliefs. I personally do not attempt to force my values on people, and am an avid follower of science. I am especially fond of evolution, and have adopted it into my world view. You should not be called a "fornicator" or a "sinner" for having sex with your girlfriend, but that is not the fault of all Christians, just a few Christians.

Actually, this reminds me of something when I was young, there was this opinion in many religions that all young men are supposed to be 'worldly wise' before they marry, and that all women should be virginal until their marriage, but no attempt was ever made to explain how this strange situation could possibly exist in reality.

Are these the same guys against The Golden Compass movie (which is a children's book BTW) being released?

@Jonnell,

yup

@GoodRobotUs

I agree, they disagree with science because it disagrees with them. It always struck me, though, that Evolution was rejected by the Church because they didn't want to admit that people are related to animals, or (shock) that people ARE animals.

Nekowolf, they're coming so thick and furious, I'm not sure if you meant to insult me or if I just got too close to the general fracas. At any rate, I was speaking in generalities, not about MH2 in particular. The examples you gave are fine and I think support my point. I don't know anything about MH2.

@ Pandralisk

Just want to point something out to you. You claim to just want to point out your opinion, and seem to play the vicitm when people jump on your back for your posts. You may have valid points, and you may not. I don't think anyone can really tell because you fill your posts with so many unnecessary words and useless hate. I think you should post under the monicker, "Hate-Filled Adjective Machine". Take a look at approximately 50% of your first post and tell me how it is prodctive in any way. I only deleted text between all this crap.


superstitious pigs
Bible thumping morons
bullshit belief systems
worship their hateful God
absurd conception of God
superstitious hate
Bible thumping pigs
Christian hate and censorship
bullshit and absurd values
gullible and feeble minded enough to believe such nonsense
racist, infanticidal, genocidal, sado-masochistic, and deluded monster
metaphysically absurd ideas
Bible thumping pigs
rape us of our liberty
Moronic Christian Activists
backward, evil, and superstitious standards
superstition and hate
tyrannical moral policing
facist, bible thumping, sects of evangelical Christians
sick, freedom-raping, individuals
I’ve tried to point this out to you before
theological moral facism
evangelical morons

A sane person would think I made this up.

@Geekwad

I'm sorry, I misread, haha...Oh, my apologies, I missed your name and thought I was quoting Pandralisk (he's had some pretty long posts). If I realized I was quoting someone else, I would've been a lot nice. MY bad! I didn't mean that towards you, I meant it towards him; man, is my face red!

I sincerely apologize for the misquoting and such!

@Pandralisk

Hey man, I can assure you that there are a lot of Christians who don't think this kind of censorship should happen. And they also believe in the Bible. Does that make them hypocrites? No, it just makes their interpretation of the Bible different than yours. Just like there are differing interpretations on our country's founding documents (there are Supreme Court opinions about the Constitution on both sides all the time), there are differing opinions on a religion's founding document. You can see the Bible to be absolute crap, and I can see the Bible to be the Word of God. Just like you can vote for one political party that you believe will be the best for the nation, and I can vote for a different one for the same reason. Just live with it, because people have been trying to rid the world of Christianity for about 2000 years now. It hasn't worked yet, and I don't really think it will.

OFF TOPIC:
but i think this is the real problem
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21757056/

Parents don't want to get involved with what their children are playing.

@Jer

Of course it is. In fact, in the article originally posted, it mentions kids being affected from playing the game. The point they fail to see, however, is that this game is rated M and no parent should be allowing their child to play this.

I think one of the problems is that video games have for so long been seen as a form of entertainment for kids, nobody quite knew what would happen when the generation that grew up on games actually grew up. The games are growing up along with them (us, actually, but whatever). The older generations don't know how to respond to that, because they still see it as a juvenile form of entertainment.

I think someone needs to gather all these people together and show them the episode of Drawn Together where the show gets a bad review. Specifically the last 5 minutes or so.

At the very least, hopfully they'll be more outraged at the show than any game.

@ People bitching about how worshipping any God is no different from Odin etc.

Odin was fucking awesome. He was hardcore. Don't diss the Norse Pantheon.

"Religious beliefs =/= morals. Morals are a societal concept."

Most religions are, in effect, an attempt to combine social and natural laws into one "unifying theory".

@jds:

I think you just invented Pandralisk Bingo.

The scariest thing that an atheist can realise is that there are people out there who are perfectly nice and intelligent and respectable in every way while also believing in god. That people can accept something in faith even if it goes against logic, while not completely losing their ability to think logically about other things.

Back on topic, if a country has no official state religion then religious beliefs shouldn't be a defining factor in that country's laws. You can't feature creep a state religion and expect people not to notice.

@Eric

Yeah, all good points, and it's a shame that the most "devoted" people in their views are all too often simply that way because of ignorance and an unwillingness to learn. At least the good news is that they're the minority.

@IceHawk

Just to get the facts out, animal sacrifice is difficult but legal since one religion petitioned the courts to make it legal. I don't remember many of the details about it, but basically if you can show that the animal lived a good life, died relatively painlessly, and don't disturb the peace with your ritual it's all good. The police can still detain you for a bit if someone reports it as animal cruelty, but if you can cite the case and prove you did everything right then you're totally free.

And we tend to go as far away as possibly from civilization to hold firedances and other celebrations with large fire, or just plain any celebration.

-Ix Ecclectic Heathen (Norse pantheon ftw)

@ everyone

You're still feeding the troll...

@ Weighted Companion Cube

Dude that is scary. I clicked on the link and got a pop-up asked for $5 from a Non-Profit Org. Yessss these are the people I want as my moral and religious guides. Wonder if it is to late to join the Norse Pantheon.

Bayu,
Are you just plain ignoring the existance of the petition which is demanding that the companies not sell their games to ANYONE?

That IS an attempt FORCE their beliefs upon others.

It's a far cry from merely saying "this game is offensive to our beliefs and WE are not going to play it". This petition is, in effect, saying "this game is offensive to our beliefs and NO ONE should have the Right to play it".

There IS a difference.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

@ Weighted Companion Cube

Wow, they gave Stardust a bad review...I don't even need to look at Harry Potter, I can already guess what that says....Holy shit, Labyrinth too?

Umm...not to invoke the evil name and whatnot, but wasn't a certain someone suppose to have a court hearing two days ago? Or was it tomorrow?

I ask because this little bout of fanaticism seems to be right up his alley, and he's been a touch quiet as of late.

@Weighted

I'm surprised JT hasn't nuzzled himself up with this group yet, unless even he thinks they are WAY too uptight.

@ Weighted Companion Cube

The site gave Kingdom of Heaven a 54...and no, it's not because they hate Orlando Bloom

The review (at least what I could make out) stated that the movie's flaw was that it portrayed tolerance...without ever trying o convert the non-Christians in the flick.

WTF?

Where's Altair when you need him...

the golden compass is anti-christian....mormonism is a false view...three different levels of bad language (L, LL, or, for all those zany profaners out there, LLL), and adults say that the ESRB rating system is complicated...

I want to see some game reviews from these guys. Just imagine what they would do to Halo. Also, they claim to be objective.

@ Dark Sovereign.

I disagree. They admit out front that they come into the thing with a slant/bias. ie South Park is judged Very harshly while Bambi, Mary Poppins and pure christian movies (sunshine and daisys) are adored. They admit they are not objective and apparently do not much care.

Bet they would try to edit what is shown on the news (yes I know news is already editted) to remove excess violence, sexuality and the mention of anything un-god like. Since these subjects can lead people astray.... sigh.

The day they turn over the rating of games to them is the day I move to the EU.

@Icehawk

A movie-centered equivalent of 4Kids? For the love of God, NO!

@BlackIce

Indeed, and if you don't like the weather or the politicians just wait an hour and they will change.

Damn, need to take that trip to Scotland I was planning now, need a pint at a real honest-to-god pub now.

@Monte:

Oh, I know. I'm a godless heathen myself. It's just that the standard atheist-theist debate (by which I mean shouting match, not actual discussion) tends to involve the first party adopting the "you believe in god therefore your grasp of fact is moot." Sensible atheists are those that have realised that such a belief doesn't make someone stupid.

@ Pandralisk - shut up, dude. You're making other atheists out there apologists for you. Seriously, we get it - you want STRICT seperation of church/state. We get it, so please, lay off - your hate isn't making any progress.

@Timmay!

I suggest we put M for mature, 17+, on a billboard. It really can't be much more blatant than it already is. What we really need is actual gamers on TV.

The advocates are the only people who care about this game anymore.

@Timmay!

Sadly, the "games are for kids" generation may need to age out of relevance before that happens.

"It teaches susceptible children to commit sadistic violence."

*wolf howling*

Oh, the stupidity.
O Dear God. Please, make it stop.

first of all manhunt 2 is not a first person shooter its third person. second the people that your killing are not innocent victims they are trying to kill you for sport and money.and third the church has no business to say what video games should rated. good thing church and state are sepreated.god bless the us.constiution

Haven't seen Jack here in awhile, but I will get back on subject. I mean come on didn't we get over this whole Manhunt 2 issue. If these people think a game is the worst thing to happen to society they should go back and take a look in there Bibles.


DarthCylon out
for now =)

@Bayu

If you and other Christians like you don't want to be painted with the same brush as cretins like Baehr and JT, et al, perhaps you should do something on a larger scale to differentiate yourselves from them. These people are twisting your religion to censor and oppress people, and you saying their opinion should be respected is asinine. You should be doing everything you can to strip these assholes of any power they have, especially since they imply that they represent your ideals.

@WCC

I checked out that site, and came close to splitting my sides laughing, especially when they prattle about "Mathematically proof according to will of the Flying Spaghetti Monster" or whatever vile warp-spawn they kneel to, turning from the light of the true Emperor of Mankind. I have to wonder, if those movies are as harmful as they say, what effect has reviewing all those movies and counting the instances of violence and profanity had on the reviewers? If they are as dangerous as they say, then the reviewers should be completely corrupted by now.

I'd like to expand on that last bit. They make you pay $40 a year to join the forums or view reviews of movies that came out over 3 weeks ago. This tells me that they really don't care about Christian values and are in it for the money (after all if the values were so important why make people pay to see what will and won't corrupt their god-fearing children). I am reminded of the canterbury tales where more than half the clergy was corrupt, evil, greedy or hypocritical in some way (and the only good, Christian pastor didn't mind living in poverty if he could get the message out to his pastor).

Oh and seem to be suffering delusions of grandeur since they claim that they are (and that ordinary people can) 'changing the culture of Hollywood' and 'influencing entertainment industry executives' who the hell are they kidding?

scowl

Ok enough.

Tell me. Where exactly does religion fit into games or politics? This is not the place for it. If you all want to have a theologicial debate take it to a site that panders to such and have respect for those of us that don't want to hear it.

Something to think about. Neither side of the debate will KNOW until they die if there is an afterlife or not.... at which time it is moot point. Just relax with it and have enough self respect to respect the beliefs of another.

@RandomViewer

Weak (or very outdated) English translations do. There is a lot more meaning in that commandment than an over-generalized work like "kill" has in modern English. The closer translation from the original Hebrew over to modern English would be "You shall not commit murder."

@Icehawk

Yeah. I'm an atheist and I don't go around bashing other religions just because of the actions of one man. That's stereotyping. While I don't agree with any religions 'vaules' and 'morals' I'll respect them enough because it is their choice to believe. Is there an afterlife? Perhaps but their isn't any evidence saying so.

@Pandralisk

People like you Jack Thompson and others make me feel ashamed to be a human being....sometimes.

There is so many religions out there by which it is hard to know what the right religion is.

Actually no religion is the right religion because all of them have there major faults.

God created earth and put us humans on earth to live life and not get into all of this nonsense over what the right religion is.

The way I see it is that just because you follow a certain religion does not mean that you are a special good person.

I have seen many phony people that do very bad things and they try to use their religion to back them up.

Everyone in their right mind knows that there is a god because it would seem very weird how nature can be creative by having islands, mountain areas, jungles, and having all these creative looking creatures and of course have humans with all of these abilities.

Since this is a brutal world, people feel that they need to follow a certain religion to feel comfortable.

Just like how playing a game like Manhunt 2 would make someone feel comfortable when they are mad at someone. Trust me, playing a game like Gears of War and Manhunt 2 make me feel alot better when I am mad at a very rude person.

I feel that violent games made me stay out of trouble throughout my life, and people should not try to take away my right to play what I want like this Christian Values Media Advocate.

Pandralisk = Bizzaro Jack Thompson!?

I see that none of my critics has managed to wiggle free of the delimma I mentioned earlier.

Let me comment on delimma #3. The best response I has seen thus far has been something along the lines of, "well, Christians can create a unique interpretation of the Bible that ignores their explicitly stated obligation to spread the faith and enforce moral norms [and ignore much of the scripture that explicitly describes God as a genocidal child killer]." This argument is false on two grounds:

1. Claiming that you can, somehow, derive truth from a book that owes its validity to the fact that it is the divine word of God, but at the same time question major concepts within the book at your personal given whim, generates a very obvious [and damaging] epistomogical contradiction. The Bible itself offers advice for those who attempt to construct absurdist interepretations to reconcile their contemporary (and good) morality with Biblical superstition:

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)... "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)... It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)...

Christian metaphysics, indeed the entire religion itself, owes its validity to the Bible. You're flat out crazy [or simply ignorant of epistomology] if you believe that you can be a Christian and not hold the Bible as the text from which all your ideas come from and recieve justification. For your beliefs to remain interally justified and consistent, you are OBLIGATED [demanded] to acknowledge a valid interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. VERY few Christians practice their religion in the fashion that is specifically demanded; they cling to out-dated, superstitious, beliefs that no longer have any (spiritual or factual) justifications.

You've managed to wiggle yourself into an entirely new delimma: shall you no longer acknowledge the Bible as the LITERAL word of God, and consequently offer up all truths that you previously derived from its traditions (as explicitly stated and derived from the text), or shall you begin to believe in parts of the Bible that you once considered flawed? Still trying to claim that selective interpretation is possible? As I said, how do you know what you know?

You don't.

@JR

Sweet list of adjectives. If I had more time, I'd show you that each phrase amounts to little more than an analytic statement that can be supported by cold, hard, facts. Remember kids, I'm deriving stereotypes not from the actions of people, but from the perverse, internally absurd, text that spews forth an obscene amount of hate on a daily basis.

@ Haters,

Remember, folks. I'm perfectly willing to let JT and the rest of the Bible thumping facist pigs practice their hateful and interally contradictory religion in peace. By no means am I censoring their beliefs or attempting to pass laws at a state level.

Keep thinking about that little delimmia. Pandralisks, even when flamed, post what they do because they are certain that their statements form logical truths.

I know what I know because I know it. Same as you.

Duh.

Who really gives a fucking shit what these conservative Christians have to say?

Wow. Since when did we have to go from the subject at the top to about unnecessarily flaming one who shares our personal interests, oy. Leave this for the forums to deal with.
@Toxicity squared:
Right to the point. Dead on. Like a HEAD SHOT! of an arrow a la Princess Mononoke, oy.
or just stabbing yourself in the side of your head like a little girl did in No Naku Koro Ni

Don't ask why I'm doing this. Well, maybe it could deter from games if more people watched this good stuff, oy. For.... better or worse :P.

The game is rated M (age 17+) for MATURE. That means the game is NOT FOR CHILDREN! Understand. How can it teach children to commit sadistic violence when children are not suppose to play the game.

Damn, Jack not posting here for a few days made me think that maybe he was IP banned. If only...

OK Jack....
Go to BestBuy.com, and note that Manhunt 2 is being sold to anyone of any age with no age verification whatsoever. None.

Again, SO ARE OTHER RETAILERS, and you should also note that UNRATED, R RATED, and even PORN(hi Amazon, and probably others depending on your definition of "porn"...... (^_^) ), are "being sold to anyone of any age with no age verification whatsoever." Maybe I should list even PG-13, because you sure want the game equivalent Teens to be Mature....

No surprise here, as if we needed anymore more proof you didn't care about the REAL issues at hand.

Grow up, Dennis.
I know I'm being redundant, but you need to do the same.

@ jack thompson, attorney

It's called credit card age verification. Have your son get his own credit card and use his real birthday (unlike that kid who's father is suing Xbox Live) then have him try to use that credit card to buy. If it still lets him, and he's under 17, then we'll listen, until then, keep thinking the internet knows what age the person touching the keyboard is, cause honestly, I don't like Best Buy using my webcam to spy on me.

Gloat all you want Jack.

Still doesn't change the fact that your gonna get disbarred soon :)

Pandra: You still argue like Phelps. You stopped for a while, now I have to skip your posts again. Why?

Jack: Let's break this down.

--You sent gay porn to a judge, storing it in the PUBLIC case files on Pacer
--A child would need a credit card to access Pacer, therefore it is appropiately out of their reach.
--A child would need a credit card to order Manhunt 2 from BestBuy.com, therefore it is woefully within their reach.
--There is nothing contradictory about your position.

@pandralisk

either prove that the christian god is a genocidal baby killing god, or shut the hell up. it's getting annoying.

# jack thompson, attorney Says:
November 14th, 2007 at 9:16 pm

Gee, Dennis, I guess that would make you a self-appointed video game industry tool.

The issue, for those who are paying attention, is whether a game banned for sale to adults should be sold to teens in this country. Go to BestBuy.com, and note that Manhunt 2 is being sold to anyone of any age with no age verification whatsoever. None.

Grow up, Dennis.


@JT

just how is being rated M in the USA and Canada it being "banned"?
and the last time I checked, credit cards only belonged to adults, and children of stupid adults.

@Jack Thompson:

"Go to BestBuy.com, and note that Manhunt 2 is being sold to anyone of any age with no age verification whatsoever. None."

Except for the credit card validation when you come to pay for it. Sure, it doesn't ask for your age in order to look at the page and even add it to your cart, but if you want to buy it then you need to pay for it. Credit card validation is age verification. Tool.

@ The Pandralisk debate

DCOW, do you happen to know what Christian extremists have done in the past? Look up the 'Siege of Jerusalem (1099)' in Wikipedia.

"Once the Crusaders had breached the outer walls and entered the city almost every inhabitant of Jerusalem was killed over the course of that afternoon, evening and next morning. Muslims, Jews, and even a few of the Christians were all massacred with indiscriminate violence."

You do realise that all Crusaders believed themselves to be the hand of God? Smiting the infidels?

"The Crusaders circled the flaming building while singing "Christ, We Adore Thee!""

Sixth Commandment clearly states that you shall not murder.
Jesus said that you should love thy neighbour as yourself.

Do the Crusader's actions follow these two? Or are God's opinions flexible, just like our own?

"Murder is always a sin, unless it's done in great numbers and to the sounds of trumpets"

I agree with Pandralisk that laws shouldn't be passed simply because of religious morals. I also agree that God is not a fixed individual, and they mean different things to different people. Both sides have valid arguments.

@ RealDB

Failure in compliance with that particular widsom often results in 'Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.'

OKAY. Sorry it took so long. I work second shift at my job. Also I went back through a lot of posts to see which terms came up the most often. Thanks to jds for helping out, and also to Matthew for the idea. Also, I'm no artist or anything, so this is just basic and bare bones.

Anyway, presenting, the Pandralisk bingo card!

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/kaemmerite/BLANKSheet.gif

Suggestions welcome.

@jack thompson, attorney

The game was never banned from adults nitwit, it's INTENDED for adults.

This yet again proves that your goal is not to restrict mature rated media access to minors, you goal is to nerf ALL media so that NO ONE is offended especially you.

By the way, I hope you can sleep at night knowing you and your kind are saving this game from death at the bargain bin.

I bet you're Googling the words "Manhunt 2" and "murder" as you comment here.

@ JT

"Gee, Dennis, I guess that would make you a self-appointed video game industry tool."

One is considered a video game industry tool when they don't want religion to be the rating filter system for games?

It's called SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. You're a lawyer, Mr. Thompson. Go look it up. It'll help you.

"The issue, for those who are paying attention, is whether a game banned for sale to adults should be sold to teens in this country."

United States Culture =/= The World, Jack. LEARN. IT.

"Go to BestBuy.com, and note that Manhunt 2 is being sold to anyone of any age with no age verification whatsoever. None."

Credit cards are valid age verification. Join the 20th Century. I'd tell you to join the 21st, but that would be asking too much.

"Grow up, Dennis."

How about YOU? Admit it, you're just peeved that this thread attained 200+ posts without your influence.

@ Walker T
Good points. I also agree that religion should not be the basis of law and policy making, that people should have freedom to choose. Get this though, I are Christian. The whole point Pandralisk misses in all his ranting is that those who go about trying to force others to change are not in accordance with the bible. The bible that says if they turn you away that you should dust off you feet and move elsewhere. The bible that says God gave people free will. The one that actually advocates humans not taking it upon themselves to convert others, but to let God do that, and JUST be the example. But you know... whatever... gotta ignore something if we don't want to be rational.

I'm a 100% god-free. I don't understand people who can tune their brain just right to believe in virgin birth or splitting a puddle in two. Or fucking Xenu, or Santa Claus.

I'm glad to see arguments for secular humanism brought up in the comments. The way I see it, I don't need a reward for helping another. My morals aren't a ticket to a heaven. I don't need the illusion of afterlife to comfort me. My life is my own and I'm not accountable to an invisible dude with a ZZ Top beard.

Nonetheless, Pandralisk is an asshole. Life's full of them and always will be. Try to appreciate the friction, I guess. It'd be pretty boring without. (:

You know what's funny? Yesterday, I bought Assassin's Creed and Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles at GameStop and I was carded. The thing is that I am 24, but probably look slightly older even and have almost a full beard. I still had to show ID though or they wouldn't let me buy the games.

However, I went into CVS and picked up cigarettes for my mom and I didn't get so much as a bat of the eye. In fact, I've been walking into store buying cigarettes for my mom and sometimes sister since I was sixteen and never once was I carded.

I get less of a hassle buying cigarettes (from 16 on up) than I do video games, so you know something is fucked up in today's society.

@ Walker T

So you're basing most of your argument off of a series of events that occured almost a thousand years ago? I think that hardly qualifies as a valid argument for the present, considering alot has changed since then and we no longer live in a society where everyone used God as an excuse for war and violence. Granted, some people probably still do, but that number has most likely decreased considerably over the past couple centuries. Just my opinion though.

"Keep thinking about that little delimmia. Pandralisks, even when flamed, post what they do because they are certain that their statements form logical truths."

I read as

"Keep thinking about that little delimmia. Klan members, even when flamed, post what they do because they are certain that their statements form logical truths."


What fascist bigot hasn't thought that their hate isn't backed up by hard logic?

And for the other Thompson.


"The issue, for those who are paying attention, is whether a game banned for sale to adults should be sold to teens in this country."


Manhunt 2 isn't banned for sale to adults. And if you are referring to the UK then that is completely irrelevant to American law. If you want it to be relevant, for you anyways, then fucking move there.

@ jer
Ok, how did you fix it? I would like to know so the next time I screw html up I can fix it.

Regarding the credit card issue, I think Jack Thompson is using a technicality to make his point. Keep in mind I'm not expert on this issue, so I could be wrong about what I'm about to write, but I believe it to be the case, based on various pieces of FTC regulations I've seen quoted.

I think there is some confusions regarding verification of age, and verification of parental consent. A credit card, technically speaking can't be used for age verification, but it can be used for proof of parental consent. What that means is, if Best Buy requires a credit card before buying Manhunt 2, then it is perfectly acceptable for them to assume that either the person is an adult, or has the permission of an adult. But its not acceptable for them to just assume the person is definitely an adult.

So rather than forcing the adult to buy the game and then give it to the teen, Best Buy says the adult can simply give the teen permission and a credit card and let the teen do it himself. I see little difference between the two. In both cases, the adult is deciding the teen can play the game and arranging things so that it is possible. In both cases, the teen cannot get ahold of the game without adult consent.

But I think Jack Thompson views games like Manhunt 2 as the same as a cigarette or beer. He doesn't see the ESRB ratings as mere guidelines that a parent can choose to disregard if they believe their child is capable of handling Halo at age 15. He sees a M rating as a definite statement that no one under the age of 17 should ever play the game. At all, regardless of what their parent thinks. So when he sees a site like Best Buy make it convenient for a teen with parental consent to get ahold of M rated games, he hates it. He knows he won't be able to get the ESRB regulations enforced to the point where they overide parental consent, but he wants to make it as hard and inconvenent as possible for a parent to give his or her teen a M rated game. And if by doing so JT can at the same time make it more inconvenient for anyone of any age to buy a M rated game, all the better.

@john doe
pure html tags
[i] italics [/i]
replace the "[" and "]"
with "" respectively

one more try:
replace the “[” and “]”
with “<" and ">” respectively

@Kill Jebus
Glad to see you could make it to the discussion Obvious Troll

A lot of this is moot simply because 1. Manhunt 2 is not a first person shooter and 2. the "victims" are murderers themselves. Soooo...

Who in the world had played Manhunt 2 anyway? I plan on picking up a copy eventually but it's not the sort of thing I'd pay more than ten dollars for, used. Last-gen games at $30 or $40 is way too much.