Well, to me, history is history; no amount of video games will change what happened in the past. I mean, how about Civilization III? On one victory setting, it's genocide, but nobody says anything about that, but as soon as you base it on a historical war, it's suddenly crossing the line though that is, for the most part, what happened? So you want to other side to win when you play them, big deal. It won't change the tides of time, it won't suddenly change the world. Just because you PLAY on a fascist side doesn't MAKE you fascist or mean that you are. And who knows; it could lead a new perspective of the war; at least for the sake of learning.

I'm getting tired of people like "daughter"

They always "Wah wah wah! You cant do that cause somewhere along the line i was effected by that event!"

Like the swastika. People always get upset whenever it appears, of course not realizing that origanly it was a sort of tibentian symbol. It is soo much more than the 3-4 years it was used by nazis

There is also the cross. I remember people were upset about NWN 2 graveyards having crosses in them, because everyone sees cross as instantly christian symbol, when it is just simply two planks of wood crossing each other.

Course those are just symbols. But still... Whenever someone does something that involves something in real life, SOMEONE will always be upset. Esspecially when it involves combat cause they are always like "Its a game it trivilizes the loss of life now i cry..."

But i'm rambling a bit now..

...hmm....World War 2 games....

What about those?....There are so many it's like a whole genrie yet we never hear people whine like this...

And often WW2 games do kinda show US soilders getting killed.

Stupid people make my head hurt.

the "daughter" person really doesn't have an arguement. I mean there's games out there that let you play as the nazis, and that was the holocaust.

there's much bigger fish out there.

It is not a historical event buried in the past, but is very fresh in the memory of Spaniards.

I'm fairly sure that the Second World War is very fresh in the minds of a number of people. Yet they generally don't scream about movies or games made that are based on that time. Something similar is true of the Vietnam war as well.

Indeed, as Paco Perez said up there, one of the things the game could serve to do is keep the war fresh in people minds. Which is a good thing from the standpoint that it's a reminder of past lessons learned.

After all, as someone once parodied that famous axiom about the past:

"History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club."

uhg...

ZOMG! how DARE people make films,movies,TV shows,,books,new stories about past events!

Actually, Vietnam was a civil war, just not a US civil war. I wonder how games about the Korean war play in Korea?

So, you can't make a game about the Spanish Civil War, but you can about any other war in history. Including more recent conflicts.

@Ace of Sevens

Actually, it wasn't. North and South Vietnam were two different nations that used to be whole. Therefore, it wasn't a civil war.

@Vladmire

Last I checked, Vietnam was still in one piece, Korea is the one that was split in two.

The second world war might have been "worse" than the Spanish civil war, but the Spanish civil still causes big fights in Spain. The civil war is still a very touchy subject. It might seem stupid with all the world war II games, but people who know Spain understand the outrage.

@Vlad

Actually, you'd have the Union and the Confederacy. I've always liked that word.. Confederacy..

No, North and South Korea used to be Korea, so they are split. Vietnam is whole again.

@Vlad

Well, the way things worked was like this:

Korea and Vietnam were under the control of others until after WWII. Due to various political factors, when they regained their independence, they each got split into a North and a South. Eventually, the north invaded the south.

In the case of Korea, things eventually resolved so they remained seperate.
In the case of Vietnam, the north eventually conquered the south, and the two were fused into one country.

@Hand

That was one of the fun things about Lords of the Realm 2. You could play politics and the like, or you could become very brutal. I remember running in on one guys country and destroying everything. Civlians, crops, anything i could destroy. Eventually His civilians that were left revolted and threw him out of office. I came in and cleaned up the mess.

GP: LOTR2 ?   Wow, great game... you're reaching back a ways into the memory bank for that one, though, no?

@Vlad

"Civil" War is an oxymoron.

Oh boo hoo. You don't see veterans protesting every single WWII game that comes out. Besides, it happened almost 70 years ago. Get over it.

Although I certainly don't think it is the game developer's intent to trivialise or insult those who suffered from this war.. I can see why they would be upset by it. We're not talking about some war against a foreign nation, or some distant part of the world.. we're talking about a fairly recent civil war, followed by a lengthy dictatorship which ended well within the lifespan of many modern gamers. I don't know much about the whole thing, but I do know how devastating civil war can be, and that I was born only five years after that dictatorship ended... I know a lot of gamers who would have been alive during it.

To those of you who don't know why a civil war in your nation is different from any other kind of war... it is because it isn't your army fighting and dying against another army, it is /you/ fighting and dying, against people who a week ago were your neighbors, friends, lovers, brothers, sisters, parents... the results of this, even without a dictatorship following it, last for generations.. please, go ask the peolpe in Northern Ireland how they would feel about a video game being made that allowed people to play the IRA, the British Army, and various other factions in that recent struggle.. my father was there, and I know he would feel insulted, as would I on his behalf.... especially if it was not done with consideration. Go to the former Yugoslavia, and ask how people would like a game that allowed people to fight on various sides of their struggle... while glossing over the atrocities that were commited.

RTS games simplify war.. and civil wars are so personal that it hurts to see those details glossed over for the sake of someone's entertainment. You may not understand this, but have some compassion.. a virtue sadly lacking it seems in many of the posters in this thread.. stop for a moment and realize the effects of a civil war on a nation, and why people might be upset by this.

@Thomas.

Compassion is one of the 8 virutes of the Avatar from Ultima. :P

After reading your comment. I like to recline of my first post I made eariler.

Civil Wars do seem to have a different war about it. Sence it's in your own back yard compaired to fighting people across the big pond.

While this "daughter" might be hurt from this...I don't think those developers are insensitive or doing the game to piss off people.

I'm sure we can agree on all that...hell I bet the outcry was unpredicted...

I think it all boils down to who is sensitive about things and who is not....I'm sure not every person is upset about it and I'n sure there are rational people.

@Lightwarrior

I agree, it doesn't seem that they are doing this to cause offense. But there is a difference between doing something to cause offense and dismissing the fact that it does upset people as unimportant which it seems that many in this thread are doing... really, my comments are not against the game, but rather against those commenting here who do not seem to have a single clue what they are talking about when it comes to civil wars.

I must take issue with your use of the word "rational" however, as if the people offended are irrational lunatics... even a rational person might be offended when they find out that someone will be taking entertainment from something which involved people they love being killed, and which they need to deal with every day of their lives.

@Vladmire

Definitely agree with you there, that's something I always like to point out.... espeically to people who slate videogames as pointless or violent, after they are done screaming insults at the ref during their local football (not soccer dammit!) match.

There are a lot of people on here ridiculing the Spanish for making a fuss about a war that ended nearly seventy years ago - and before WWII even started. However, there's a good reason they're more touchy about Franco in Spain than they are in Germany about Hitler (and I think a lot of Americans underestimate just how sore a subject that still is, but that's another matter): While the civil war ended in '39, Franco won it and ruled the country until his death in 1975. That may be before most of us here were born, but it's not really very long ago. And it's still a touchy subject: It's only this year that they'll remove all references to the regime in street names etc. - a similar measure was outvoted as late as 2002.

Does that mean it's out of line to make a game about it? Not really. But it's not that surprising that some people would think so.

@father time

Grave of the fireflies is the one i've seen that doesnt, oh.. and Howls moving castle.

course... those are kinda diffrent..

Well, I can't imagine how it could /not/ trivialise it... I mean... how many RTS games really address the long term pain and suffering caused by something like this? They can do as much as they can to include factual stuff, but at the end of the day, to someone who has suffered.. simply making a "game" out of it is making it trivial.

Off topic but just so people know autocracies were committed on both sides of the isle in the Spanish Civil War. The Republicans killed many people in innocent blood most much the same as the Nationalists did (mainly devote catholics most of whom took no side during the conflict). Most people consider the Republicans all perfectly good and the Nationalists as completely evil but both sides were in essence pretty damn bad.

@marlowe

Esspecially how the french are kinda becoming a bigger ally now than the british? or at least so i hear..

@Vlad,

My Grandfather was wounded in a french "civil war" of late that never existed officialy.

I think he'd be pissed about a video game about it not because of the subject but because of the media coverage around it. He hates the media for their "stupid" coverage of pretty much everything.

Actually, I am rather amused by the fact that I stated my WIA grandfather, I usualy don't think of him as a "war vet" but as a person.

Which surprises me when people see him:
Person: "OMG, that must have been horrible growing up with someone that wounded around!"
Me: "Well, no actually he just is a bit clumsy and can't really react fast you know... Plus heart trouble and stuff."
P: "I mean, the wounds must have shocked you!"
M: "... Well... Leave it at that."

"World wars 1 and 2 took place in that time frame. If most people can get over that between now and then, so can these people. "

First of not every one is "over" WWII. When the first Medal of Honor came out there was some controversy in Germany due to the fact that the game contained refrences to Nazis. Nazism is still a touchy subject in Germany. EA actually had to remove the Nazi refrences when the game was released in Germany.
Marlowe put it best this isn't onyl about a war its about he dictatorship and years of political and social repression it brought about. God only knows how many people Franco had put to death. Who would of thought that game that will contain refrences to a man that killed some woman's parent would make that woman upset? Go figure. Yes there are some people that are oversensative to certain issues but this is something real. So don't attack some woman without really knowing what guys are talking about.

@Falcon

I'm talking about everything that has come out starting around y2k SOMEONE somewhere ALWAYS whines about it.

Austin powers - Fat people where upset.
Hair Spray - Gay People where upset
Left behind - Relgious people where upset
Political cartoons of a dog and and a profit - Relgious people where so upset that they are trying to kill the artist.
Man hunt 2, 50 cent bullet proof, ect ect.

Guy at comedy club is called a cracker and raciticest names retorts with a racist name and ends up getting put to court of "emotional trama" enduced on the "victems" just because of the color of thier skin is darker then his.

The list keeps going on and on.

I have to agree with Anonyomus's grandfather. The media sucks major ball sacks. They get all worked up about all of this stuff. As we can see with Man hunt 2 as well. Game sucks totally. Oh but the media wont let it drop.

Oh no, they have to keep pouring lemon juice on the wounds, Aghth farafhtheer... lost train of thought in a random mix of thoughts. I hate when that happens.

Whiny sensitive morons. Do not like a game?

Then do not play it. The rest of us will leave you to cry in the corner.

@Kuri

who the hell are you?!

I'm watching kevin smith movies right now!

HAVE I ENTERED THE TWILIGHT ZONE?!

Slightly off topic but what did the Spanish think about 'for whom the bell tolls' (although you can't compare this game and the book).

@Thomas
actually, its not just civil wars that cause such great controversy. as i stated in my first post, there are games about the vietnam war, and we dont bitch about it. you dont see vietnam vets marching in protest of every game that came out about the v. war. and no, it wasnt a civil war, but it caused about as much hurt, because of all the soldiers that died, and the people who were for it, and the vast numbers who were against it. that, and the general sense that we lost that war.

@ Pandralisk

This is the first time that I have EVER heard you say anything that makes sense. Kudos to you for finally learning the art of rational discourse.

counterpoint: Pan's Labyrinth.
win: me.

@cpt crunchie

This is not about controversy, this is about the suffering of an entire nation for an extended period of time with a civil war followed by a lengthy dictatorship.

Comparing Vietnam to this is apples and oranges. Vietnam was a war on foreign soil, for purely political reasons, in which all the American participants were members of the US armed services, even if many did not want to be there. The vast majority of American's got to sit at home and watch it on TV.. yes, many of them knew people they cared about involved, but that is different from actually /being/ involved. They were not sitting in their homes, waiting for militants to kick in their door, kill them, rape them, torture them.... they were not forced to have running battles in the streets for the sake of trying to protect their families. The pain caused in Vietnam is utterly different to that caused in a civil war. The reason so many people were hurt psychologically and physically in Vietnam was not because they absolutely had to fight or everyone they knew would die, but because the US military was, and still is to a large degree, incapable of using anything more than brute force to fight unconventional tactics. It threw bodies and money at it and thought that would work.

And that is not even taking into account that, after Vietnam, America did not suffer a dictatorship.. one that still effects the country to this day and is fresh in the minds of those who suffered.

@Thomas

"This stuff is still an open wound to them.. the only image I can think up to highlight it, is imagine being raped and tortured.. and before you were anywhere near ready to get over that, you find that someone is making a video game letting players play either you, or the person who tormented you."

True enough. I guess it's still left up to how the developers decided to design their title. I just hope this doesn't get as overblown as Mercenaries 2, GRAW, or the German government' crazy-ass bans

Thomas
Then ban the game in spain and be done with it, one can not cherry pick how modern times retells history, either you understand that this is just a flim/game and get over it or you block it with the atni jeweish neo nazi version of history.

Since the project seems to not fully distort history you can't toss it out with out goign to exstreams.

The devs and pubs want moeny so I doubt they will go over board with it,if they do then they might lose everything from the stigma or be damaged enough from it to show the industry it should not pick on sore spots in history.

Here's the issue: While Franco's dictatorship did last until the mid 1970s, the game is mainly focused on the civil war itself. My question is, why do some people who lived through it see fit to displace all their anger over it on a game simply for allowing players to explore a historical event? That's all I have to say on the matter.

@cpt crunchie

"i now lump spaniards in with the wussy french."

Can you leave that kind of bigotry out of these discussions, please?

Meanwhile on-topic, I would like to know what kinds of outcries occurred when the first WWII themed board game came out, and whether it touched the same sorts of nerves, across the same range of people. Anyone know what the earliest WWII game would be?

@Thomas,

Actually, yes, most of us (I mean persons, not necessairely gamers) are pretty much pissed by the prevalence of "feelings" in the media, didn't you ever see a journalist ask some guy on TV about his feeling on a dreadful event when you wanted facts, and fast? I understand this is a touchy issue, in France the Algeria war (where my Grandfather was wounded, also, the war has no official existence) is also a touchy issue. I wouldn't be pissed (except if it sucked) if someone made a game about it. My grandfather would only be pissed at the media reaction.

Plus, it is done by a spanish company, I guess (apart from the portrait of the King) that they have some kind of First Ammendment. (+ Juan Carlos is one helluva guy. Check out what he managed to do.)

Raum Said:

"The spaniards have just lost the respect for them that they gained from NOT bitching about resi 4."

Just a quick remainder: the daughter mentioned in the article does not represent the opinion of all Spaniards. I am sure that the game will cause a bit of controversy in Spain, because Franco's dictatorship lasted until 1975. Nevertheless, for most people born after 1975 (this means, in a democratic society), this game is not such a big deal. It will be a problem only for the older population, who were closer to the events and are not familiar with videogames. But I can tell you that the Spanish gamers will support the title if it is a quality game.

The critics of the game are (at least for now) a minority. We knew about this game since June 2006 and just a few people have complained since then. I addition, there is a mod for Medal of Honor who allows players to control Spanish soldiers and fight battles of the Civil War. This mod appeared on the Spanish tv at some point and I did not hear any controversy.

http://www.1936.jolt.co.uk/

I know that a full game is a different matter, but honestly, I do not expect a national debate about it.

@ Thomas,

I favot the first approach of course. I don't laugh because people are offended, I laugh when they are offended for no serious reason (like people being "offended" by my grandfather, I always think "Wimp" in my head). Right now I ain't laughing, I'm pissed because some people happen to bitch about another person's bitching and that's contradictory.

And I'd like this game to be serious and, above all, good. I'd would show them that it's not necessairely a bad thing.

@Ed Orman
oh please, its not bigotry, its just a bit of light humor for the thread.
and anyway, i dont think that the people of this thread are trying to "trivialize" the emotions of the spanish people affected, they are simply wondering about the bitching. its a game, and its not meant to take any side in the issue, its just there to be entertainment, and like Paco Perez said, teach people about the past and prevent repeating of mistakes

The thing is that I agree with cpt crunchie, if not with his jokes. I'm french but the "french" jokes don't bother me, we have american jokes here anyway.

@ EZK,

I disagree, to forget history is to be doomed to be told "I told you" by people who didn't.

Seriously, I agree, to silence everyone about that war would be akin to fleeing one's responsabilities or to try to change history by refusing it (works a treat against nukes, for example) and to refuse to learn from the past.

As a left-winged and historically-conscious Spaniard, I think this game's release is convenient. How is making a videogame based upon the Spanish Civil War more trivializing than a movie (thousands of which exist, based upon the very same conflict and with completely biased views in one direction or other...)?

Seriously, Spain respects its dead (regardless of the side they fought for) way too much. It's quite disturbing in my opinion. It's been 70 years since it all happened. World War II is more recent than that, and no one gets that upset over videogames set in that conflict, regardless of ideology (as a matter of fact, I know many left and right-winged people who do play the same games based upon WWII...). True, there were 40 years of a fascist regime, but it won't be truly over until we get over it.

Spain, stop being such a bitch!

Being there's games about the conflict in Iraq (Which I consider to be WAY more contriversal (spell?) now then The Spanish Civil war, not meaning to dissrespect Spain and the people who died in it.) they should really just stop complaining about it.

Not to sound insentive or anything but, the Spanish Civil War happened 68 years ago. It happened nothing could be done about however something can be done to make sure mistakes like this don't happen again. Some people need to learn that you can't do anything about the past. Stop mourning the past and move on. There is no use in hitting yourself in the head about something out of your control. It's just not healthy.

There is a time to mourn, but in the long run you have got to move on.

@Ben

Don't say it too soon, he hasn't got there yet.

@ I said soccer/football because if I just said football than Americans would assume I was talking about their game even though I was talking about football or as they call it soccer... IT IS CALLED FOOTBALL SO YOU KICK THE BALL WITH YOUR FOOT DAMN IT....

Anywho as I was saying football causes riots and fights while games cause peace and fun so lets leave games alone...and play together...

@ Spaniard Dan

The US and the Spanish Civil wars were different. The US civil war was between two groups of states. The South and the North. The South wanted to break away from the union so that they could continue to practice slavery and other such practices. The North were fighting to put down slavery. If the south had won, they would have broken free of the Union and formed their own country.

The Spanish civil war seems to be between a dictator and the people opposed to his rule. I understand why people would be offended by such a game. But it would be wise to remember the disadvantage of the rebels and how hard they had it in their war. To try to avoid that topic would trivialize the lives of those who were fighting for liberty.

Both of these wars have effects that are felt to this day. Even in the US we are continuing to battle the effects of slavery. But just because the effects or the ideals behind the war are negative, doesn't mean we should try to hide or minimalize these things.

This game is little more than someone's essay, tv special, movie or documentary.

A bit late for an edit: Juan Carlos actually manage to bring democracy back via legal means, I mean he didn't break "any" law of the time.

@E. Zachary Knight

"The US and the Spanish Civil wars were different. The US civil war was between two groups of states. The South and the North. The South wanted to break away from the union so that they could continue to practice slavery and other such practices. The North were fighting to put down slavery. If the south had won, they would have broken free of the Union and formed their own country."

Common misconception there, no they weren't. The North was fighting to keep the union together. If they were purely trying to put down slavery, no slave states likely would have remained with the North.

Also slightly off on the South as well. The states that split off did so due to their declining political power. All of them voted against the guy that won, and he still got elected. So some of them fearing that their wishes would become utterly irrelevant tried secession. Others of them, not fearing total loss of political as much weren't in nearly such a rush and remained with the Union despite an anti-slavery president.

@ E. Zachary Knight

"So because a war happened recently and did not end positively, it cannot be written about?"

I did not say that. I also wrote in my previous post that "nothing justifies censorship or bans over games about these wars."

We both agree that games about civil and foreign wars can be made regardless the time when they were fought or their outcome. I only wanted to point out the reasons why civil wars are a more controversial subject than foreign wars.

@ ignorant commentators

Few here seem to grasp the importance that silence plays in remembering the sins of the Franco era. When Spain transitioned from fascist dictatorship to the parliamentary democracy that exists there today, a lot of people that did very bad things during the Franco era were basically let off the hook. The people whose family members were tortured and executed by Franco's thugs are understandably pissed off that they never got justice.

It might be better to know a couple facts before you go off on how people whose family members were murdered by that regime are just a bunch of pussies who should "get over it". The game will still be made and you can still play it or not play it as much as you want. But injecting your preconceived notions of what reality is into a situation (the Spanish Civil War and its aftereffects) that you know noting about just makes you look like an idiot.

I'm Spanish, and I'm a gamer, and I'm a bit taken aback by the ignorance of most of the comments in this thread. As Wengler points out, the history the Spanish Civil war was exclusively told by the winning side for 40 years, and silence has been kept about the atrocities commited by both sides.
Just so you have some context, this game is released in the middle of a controversy about the "historical memory", a governmental initiative to honor all the victims of the civil war (whichever side they were in). Those who were on the winning side advocate not to bring back the past and keep it quiet (like this woman), mostly because they want to believe that their side did not commit any crimes. Those who sympathised with the losing side are the ones that want the names of the victims on that side to be remembered and get some sort of compensation (not monetary, but moral), since they've been ostracised for more than 40 years. On top of that, a game that lets you play on either side it's not tolerable for those who have been happy with the official version during Franco's rule.

It's a lot more complicated than just "getting over it". As Wengler says, a bit of research on the internet (wikipedia, anyone?) might help not making fools of yourselves. You can google "Spanish historical memory", or read this NYT article from last month http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/world/europe/28spain.html

BTW, the official site of the game (in Spanish) is this http://www.sombrasdeguerra.es/

Ahh, stupid post button.

You want to make a game about the fall of the Roman Empire! This person in a failing government is offended!

When you look hard enough, you can find someone to be offended over everything. If people start tailoring things so that nobody is offended, nothing is produced either.

@ Spaniard Dan,

i know the republiccans were fragmentated. They had serious trouble cooperating, for example troskists weren't exactly loved by everybody.

The whole republican side was a mess, but sometimes, it's better to simplify.