Text of Senators' Manhunt 2 Protest Letter to ESRB

Text of Senators' Manhunt 2 Protest Letter to ESRB

November 23, 2007
As GamePolitics reported this week, four U.S. Senators sent a letter on Monday to the ESRB calling for a review of the video game industry's content rating system in the wake of the Manhunt 2 controversy.

The bipartisan effort included Democrats Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman and Evan Bayh as well as Republican Sam Brownback.

ABC's Jake Tapper has published the letter on his blog and GP has pasted the full version below.

By the way, our request for comment from the ESRB received only this back from a spokesman:
We've received the letter and will be responding. 

It's unclear whether the ESRB's response will be made public or in private meetings with the senators. Without further ado, here's the letter:

Patricia Vance
President Entertainment Software Rating Board
Entertainment Software Rating Board
317 Madison Avenue, 22nd Floor
New York, NY 10017

Dear Ms. Vance,

We are writing to suggest that it may be desirable to revise or enhance the current ESRB rating system. We continue to believe that the ESRB takes seriously its responsibility with respect to the ratings and their enforcement. However, we believe that a number of issues have been raised regarding the release of Manhunt 2.

As you know, in June 2007 the British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) refused to rate Rockstar's Manhunt 2 video game, effectively banning its sale in British stores, stating that it contains "unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone... which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing." The BBFC Director concluded that any other action "would involve a range of unjustifiable harm risks, to both adults and minors." Consistent with your British counterpart, this version received an "Adults Only" (AO) rating from your Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB).

In October 2007 the BBFC again refused to rate a revised Manhunt 2 stating that "[t]he impact of the revisions on the bleakness and callousness of tone, or the essential nature of the gameplay, is clearly insufficient. There has been a reduction in the visual detail in some of the 'execution kills', but in others they retain their original visceral and casually sadistic nature." Other countries agreed and have also banned the game.

Unlike the British Board, the ESRB reduced the revised version's rating to "Mature" (M) effectively opening the door to its widespread distribution and its licensing approval by game system manufacturers Sony and Nintendo. And, while significant progress has been made, the FTC reports that 42 percent of unaccompanied children 13 to 16 years of age can still successfully purchase M-rated games meaning that the practical difference between an AO and M rating affects more than simply 17-yearolds.

Manhunt 2 was sanctioned by Nintendo for its Wii system. That system permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders in Manhunt 2 rather than simply manipulating a game pad. This led one clinical psychologist to state that the realistic motions used with the Wii mean that "you're basically teaching a child the behavioral sequencing of killing." While this was not cited as the reason for the BBFC decision, we do believe that the ESRB should take the Wii remote controller, and future advances in game controllers, which create more realistic gaming environments, into consideration.

Another disturbing aspect of this saga is that the AO version ended up being leaked on the Internet thereby circumventing the rating restrictions. News reports state that the leak came from a Sony employee, who was reportedly fired, rather than the game manufacturer. Nevertheless, the possible use of the internet to circumvent the ESRB and permit broad access to kids is another concern.

There are many questions that are raised because of the above cited issues regarding the process, robustness and repeatability of the ratings provided by the ESRB system. First, there appears to be a lack of information, to the public and developers, regarding why a particular rating is given or changed. What information is provided back to developers after receiving a rating? Why is information regarding rating changes or reasons for decisions unavailable, except for content descriptors, to the public? We understand to some extent the concerns regarding the confidentiality of pre-released materials however that argument is no longer compelling after the product is released.

Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating. A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner.

Further, do the same reviewers view the original and the revised version of a game after an AO rating is received? How frequently do you use more than your minimum of three reviewers when evaluating a game? Are three reviewers adequate for the more violent games? How often do your reviewers disagree in their initial ratings and how frequently is the final rating a majority opinion rather than a consensus?

In sum, we ask your consideration of whether it is time to review the robustness, reliability and repeatability of your ratings process, particularly for this genre of "ultraviolent" video games and the advances in game controllers. We have consistently urged parents to pay attention to the ESRB rating system. We must ensure that parents can rely on the consistency and accuracy of those ratings.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Sincerely,

Joseph I. Lieberman
United States Senator

Sam Brownback
United States Senator

Evan Bayh
United States Senator

Hillary Rodham Clinton
United States Senator

Comments

if Manhunt 2 wasn't by Rockstar, would it have this much attention?
answer: no
It is bothersome that they base so much their arguement on what the BBFC did. Different country, different rules. Is this so deep that it is beyond understanding?

Then the paragraph:

Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating. A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner.

Bah. Its was the people that were trying to bash the game that drew the extra attention and the added sales not the ESRB. As for a more transparent process.... sounds to me that they are saying "We want to read over your shoulder and have the right to overrule you"

On the topic if 3 reviewers are enough. I would almost be tempted to agree. Except the question begs. If they agree they need more people to give a "fair" review of certain games who is going to pay for it?
For f**** sake, the Wii controls are far from realistic, these people are just beyond stupid.

If a kid under 17 buys this game, it's not the ESRB or the company that made the game fault, it's either the parents(If there the ones that bought it for them) or the store(For not taking into consideration the kids age.
Openly asking for censorship by politicians in the US ?
There is SO much wrong with that.

Also, When the frick did the US start to care about how OTHER countries rate their games ?
@BlackIce

No...I'll just vote for Obama *which is what I'm gonna do anyhow*
@pandralisk

cherry picker.
Well, now that we've reached a consensus, I'm willing to elaborate.
First off, when I said "a religion, by the way, that has nothing to do with Satan," I was referring to the segment of Satanism that really doesn't have anything to do with Satan. And when I said that was closed-minded, I was referring to the statement "I saw a documentary about it, so why should I bother?" Saying that, to me, is just the same as saying "I don't need to learn anything about that, I already know everything I need to" which is an incredibly closed-minded thing to say in my opinion.
People are going to be angry with me when I say this, but I actually LIKE it when congress men/women/its/people do this.



They are doing the right thing for once. They may be extremely misguided. they may not know diddely shit about videogames. They may not have ever even played a videogame or see any footage of the game. Regardless, they are NOT legislating. They are acting on their concerns without doing anything but a nice peaceful protest. I like it when people protest. Unlike previous efforts, they are not attempting to kill our rights.
No time to read through all the comments but wanted to say this anyway:

Another disturbing aspect of this saga is that the AO version ended up being leaked on the Internet thereby circumventing the rating restrictions. News reports state that the leak came from a Sony employee, who was reportedly fired, rather than the game manufacturer. Nevertheless, the possible use of the internet to circumvent the ESRB and permit broad access to kids is another concern.


The ESRB cannot, I repeat, cannot do anything about games released on the internet. They cannot put an armed guard in every game office in the world to prevent leaks of games. It is impossible for the ESRB to do this.

What is it with these politicians and asking the ESRB to perform impossible tasks? They need to grow up and do something important.

I do not want to see Hilary as president. I will campaign against her at all times. She will not become President.
@Mr. Jack
"Unlike previous efforts, they are not attempting to kill our rights."

politicians always try to scare you into doing what they want before trying to use the law to trample over the rights of the people.
@Tyler Baumbarger

The thing is, X-rated movies aren't something done by the MPAA. Their highest rating is NC-17, and plenty of stores that refuse to stock AO rated games will cheerfully stock NC-17 movies, or unrated directors cuts of what were R rated movies in theaters.
[...] As GamePolitics
The ERSB had better not touch Manhunt 2.

Political Bastards..
What it should say is:

"We don't want to bother with teaching the adults and parents about games, so we're leaving the babysitting to you, but you have to babysit them our way."
How I wish the ESRB would reply by pointing out the faults in this "fearsome foursome"'s letter:

1. Manhunt 2 was re-rated Mature due to RockStar's edits.
2. It's M (17+) - This is not even supposed to be for kids!

Bah - the more they try to be moralist, the more these senators show their ignorance.
I think they raise some excellent questions in their letter. I'd like to see a more transparent process to the rating system as well, both as a consumer and as a parent. Fortunately having grown up with video games and the advent of the ESRB, I already know what is and is not appropriate for my child based on those ratings. Furthermore, I can also make my own decisions based on my own beliefs of what is and is not appropriate while using the ESRB as an initial guide. I'd like to be able to trust the ESRB even more than I do now.

I'd like to see the system improved before the government gets it's way and manages to pass legislation restricting sales much in the same way the Brits do now. I don't need the government to tell me what's good for my child, I can do that myself, but I need to know I can trust the ESRB's ratings system.
To every US Citizen:
Can you PLEASE dump the four politicians who signed this letter OUT?

They don't deserve their jobs!
-Jes-:

I wish we could, as a matter of fact one of those *censored* is running for president. *Shakes head* She, as well as the others need to mind their own business, and frankly, if I was working in the ESRB and got that letter, into the trash/paper shredder it goes.
This is actually a fairly well-worded letter, to be honest. However, the fatal flaw here lies in the reasoning.
The first problem is that they assume that if it's a game, children will play it. If you're a parent and you buy this for a child, we've got far more serious concerns, and if a child buys it on his own, the person at the cash register SHOULD have told him no. If they didn't, then that was a serious lapse of judgment on their part. But even then, a parent should be able to see that little Timmy got a new game and it's got "M" and "Rated mature. Ages 17+" right on the cover.
Another problem comes from their complaints about the leak. First off, what the hell does that have to do with the ESRB? They can't control how company employees act. Even ignoring the fact that if a child was smart enough to figure out how to get the Ao version to work, they're probably smart enough to seperate reality from fantasy, this is clearly the wrong place to state such a complaint.
Still, though, I think this controversy is really the industry's fault. If Sony and Nintendo had allowed Ao game to be played on their systems, and if retailers made it POSSIBLE to get the game (Is it so hard to have a bunch of Manhunt 2 stock in the back under a big sign that says "Sell this without carding and it's on your job," or something? They could probably even display it with the regular stock. Just high up. And with a warning that not carding for the product is going to result in serious problems.), Rockstar could have sold Manhunt 2 in its Ao form and wouldn't have tried to appeal the rating (I seriously doubt that the real reason they wanted M-rated Manhunt 2 was because it was the wrong rating. In fact, the only thing that makes sense is that they couldn't sell it at an M rating.). As far as I can tell, the only thing that's got the critics so ticked is that they brought it from Ao to M, so there wouldn't be a problem.
(On a side note, if you consider the volume of games released, playing through EACH and EVERY one to completion is virtually impossible.)
@-Jes-:

Would love to comply, but none are in my jurisdiction. I'm doing my part to campaign against Hillary in her presidential bid, though.
We all know that one letter will not do anything all four of them would have to write about a thousand letters to get their point across. But it doesn't really matter anyway the game is out its got an accetable rating. There is no going back now.
I still can't believe Hillary is using this as her bid for presidency.

Economy's falling, education's at a lull, the country's stooped in a war, but it's okay as long as we combat the EVIL OF VIDEO GAMES.

Seriously, what the hell? I thought the 2004 polls were bad...
The ERSB needs to educate a few politicians apparently, who feel that grandstanding is good behavior. It's a good thing my senators, Feinstein and Boxer aren't involved in this witch hunt, because I'd be writin' them a letter right about now...
Manhunt 2 was sanctioned by Nintendo for its Wii system. That system permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders in Manhunt 2 rather than simply manipulating a game pad."

This reoccurring statement is starting to piss me off... Why don't they say light guns can train kids on how to use REAL guns while they're at it. Because, we all know that anyone can become an expert marksman with a real weapon after playing Time Crisis for a while.

The bastards... I highly doubt my wimpy little wave to the left and right is really helping me with my murdering technique. Motions hardly require any fucking movement to register. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if these guys think you're actually murdering innocent people in this game for no reason...

And the fact that children can purchase games they are NOT ALLOWED to play in the first place isn't ESRB's fault or the game industry itself... Bloody hell, why is it only the game industry that has to put up with this bullshit. Movies exist too you know, most of which looks more realistic than these damn pixels I play with every day.
Whoops, meant to say "ESRB."
Memo to the Senators who wrote this letter:
Here are several pointers

1. The BBFC and the ESRB are independent from each other. Neither cares what the other does.

2. 42% failure of enforcement is a big drop from the last FTC report.

3. The Wii has parental controls. A caring, vigilant, and responsible parent would use them.

4. The ESRB has NO responsibility for what is leaked onto the Inernet.

5. Downloading the leaked version is a violation of federal law.

6. Under agreement with Rockstar and Take Two, they cannot tell what was cut from the game. A violation would more than likely result in a lawsuit. If any of you had a classified agreement with another group, you will understand.

7. What happened with this game happens a hell of a lot in the movie industry and with the MPAA.

8. Rockstar edited the game down to the Mature rating because they knew the AO version would not be sold by retailers and that the console owners (Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft) would not allow it on their systems.

9. The U.S.A. is an independent nation. We should not even care what other nations do with entertainment mediums.
>Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating. A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner.

What?

Telling people about the games will cause less people to pay attention to games? Or have I missed the point?

/b
If people really want to keep Manhunt out of kids hands they should have petitioned Sony and Nintendo (and add Microsoft) to allow AO rated games on their systems and then petition stores to sell them. Problem solved.

Of course, when a kid still gets it because their inept parents buy it for them thinking AO stand for A-Okay (it was the best I could do quickly, give me a break) people will complain that the ESRB isn't doing its job. This is why I hate people.

It also irks me that these politicians don't want it to be rated M, they would rather have it stay at AO where nobody, not even a 45 year old adult could get it. How about instead of "protecting the children" you protect gamers rights.
"In sum, we ask your consideration of whether it is time to review the robustness, reliability and repeatability of your ratings process, particularly for this genre of “ultraviolent” video games and the advances in game controllers."

The response should read:

"In sum, no."
Can we ship those four who penned this letter to Brittan please? That is since they think the BBFC's decisions are infallible.
I'm so tempted to write a point-by-point response to these 4 senators, but I fear it'll just get passed off as some stupid video-game obsessed kid. Maybe if I mention that I'll be able to vote in the election...

:D
@arowe87

E: Extremly Boring
E10+: Extremly Boring times 10
T: Terrible
M: Mild
AO: A-Okay
This is actually a pretty good letter. They state facts and verifiable statistics, and suggest that the ESRB should consider the possibility that Wiimote control may affect the rating-ness of a game as much as, say, prerecorded FMV does in place of sprites. A good idea, though there's no saying that the ESRB *don't* do that now.

The letter weasels through some of the more common Jackisms but the summation is a question worth asking. Should the ESRB be more open, and should we consider why they reach the ratings they do?

"That system permits children[..]" HELLO. Sorry, you were doing so well until now. The only thing that permits children to do anything in games are the child's guardians. Also, as many have pointed out, saying that the BBFC banned something that the ESRB passed is, well, if anything a statement of *support* of the ESRB. It demonstrates that the ESRB re-rated the game under their own steam without influence of the BBFC or other bodies.
ok screw this e-mail writing. call them. call them once a day every day until they realize being censors and trampling the constitution is a bad idea.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (D- NY) 202-224-4451

Senator Joseph I. Lieberman (ID- CT) 202-224-4041

Senator Evan Bayh (D- IN) 202-224-5623

Senator Sam Brownback (R- KS) 202-224-6521
oh noes!!! 18+ stuff may have but put in a game rated for 17 year olds quick someone save me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow...I mean, just...wow...

TK Says: "I’m so tempted to write a point-by-point response to these 4 senators, but I fear it’ll just get passed off as some stupid video-game obsessed kid. Maybe if I mention that I’ll be able to vote in the election…"

Same notion here...I was in military service, in the full hopes that when I made it back, I could enjoy the notions of freedom that I served so rigorously for...unfortunately, those freedoms halt at the gate of a game screen (for the sake of the children? WTF mate), or so certain politicians seem to believe.
Asking the ESRB to play through every pixel of a game to rate it is like asking the MPAA to be on the set of a movie every day to make sure it gets the correct rating. Some things just aren't possible, especially for non-profit organizations. Not to mention that with so many games coming out and going through the process of getting an ESRB rating, it would take far too much time and games would most likely hit the shelves with a "Rating Pending" for an indefinite amount of time, something the ESRB tries very hard and does a very good job to prevent.

And it should be pointed out that the raters at the ESRB do play the games. This does not mean they play them in depth, however. An in depth rating for a game would just be a giant review slapped on the back. The ESRB doesn't exist to give opinions about the game, just to create non-biased, age-related rankings. What the senators are proposing is that the ESRB become the equivalent of Gamespot or IGN and give them a full review of the game.

It's really a problem of checks and balances. Giving anyone in the government control over an organization like the ESRB effectively destroys the first amendment and gives the government control over what can and cannot be said. If that sounds appealing to them, they can go to China. But this kind of control of free speech has failed with TV, movies, music, and comic books. Someone has always thought that a form of entertainment will rot our kids' minds, and they have always been proven wrong.
I know who I'm not voting for in the Iowa Caucus in January.
@ Any politician blaming ESRB.

It's not their fault, thinking it is for one second is asinine, it's the parents, stores, and gifter's fault, think about it. You walk into a store, underage, buy cigarettes, it's not Marlboro's fault, right? It's the person who sold them to you. Same premise for games. Another thing, the parents should be watching what they are playing, they go to a friends house? Tell the parent you don't want your kid playing M rated games. It's THAT simple. Also, for the holidays, ask those who are giving gifts not to give over a certain rating, they should abide. Thank you.
Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating. A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner.

Congratulations, you've noticed that a videogame rating system can be used for marketing purposes, just like the movie rating system currently does.

Now don't you have better things to do than grandstand over a non-issue?
I hope this simply motivates Americans to do one thing. Go out and vote.

Vote against facists like this who are going to take away your freedoms of choice whether you like it or not.

Register and vote!
@ Erik

Please don't.
What a disgusting endorsement of censorship. They seem to be saying no one in the public should have seen the AO version, ever. Those comments certainly strike me as being callous of tone, and paint an unremittingly bleak image of would-be President Hillary's agenda. Which really sucks in a politician, but sometimes I like my art that way.
The part about transparency in the ESRB is something that everyone could agree on would be nice. Arbitrariness and rating based on personal taste is something that should be left up to the the BBFC. Regulatory and rating agencies need clear rules governing how they do things.

That being said, the ESRB is a non-governmental rating agency and any further interference by US Senators would be troublesome. By the order of the signings at the bottom this appears unsurprisingly instigated by the Lieberman people, who have been fighting imagined demons since the era of fake outrage began.

And the Wiimote making gruesome murder and dismemberment more real? Are they trying to put out a press release talking about how wondrous IR controllers are at mimicking real life actions? Someone please get these US Senators a copy of Wii Sports and remind them that they just have to flick their wrist a little to hit the ball.
Despite it's obvious political agenda, this is actually a fairly well thought out letter. I dislike it's comparison to the BBFC, but it isn't the usual "Grr, I hate games" or "Who will think about the children" sort of response. Obviously, the ESRB can't make their process transparant without giving up details of the game that the publisher doesn't want out until release.

Of course, they again fail to realize that games are no longer a child-only medium. That they would try to prevent the release of a game for the chance a kid MIGHT get their hands on it is irritating, but we've4 already seen that no law preventing game sales is ever going to work, so I'm not worried.

Perhaps the ESRB does need a little tweaking. The fact that we can't buy AO games under our own reasoning is irritating beyond imagination.
Yeah so, here is my letter to Mrs. Clinton:


The letter in which Mrs. Clinton and three other individuals sent to the ESRB has me seriously reconsidering referring to myself as a Democrat.

First of all invoking the BBFC in response to a decision made by an American entity is absurd. The US stopped relying on the UK for such decisions some 231 years ago. And even so, why assume that the BBFC's decision is the correct one? At least the ESRB was willing to do their job and rate Manhunt 2. The BBFC on the other hand refused any sort of rating. This in my opinion is an insult to adult fans of interactive digital media. They are telling those tax-paying adults that they are not mature enough to handle such material. While at the same time the BBFC has rated movies which are equivalent to Manhunt 2, namely the Saw and Hostel line of movies. This unequal treatment on similar content between movies and interactive digital media is truly insulting.

Moving on in the letter we get to the part that mentions that the Nintendo Wii's control input permits CHILDREN to act out the torture scenes. Wrong. The only thing that permits children to do anything is their parents/guardians. You may not be aware, but all of the new systems come with parental controls so that even if somehow a child does get their hands on this game they will be unable to buy it.

I do hope that Mrs. Clinton is aware that the average video game player is over 18 years of age. To even mention children in the letter sent to the ESRB just further shows the discrimination against adult video game players. Why is Mrs. Clinton not putting such pressure on the MPAA? Can't children also watch the Saw and Hostel line of movies? The very same FTC article that Mrs. Clinton mentions that states that children are successful 42% of the time in buying a M rated video game also states that children are successful in buying an R rated movie 72% of the time! Now it seems to me that if Mrs. Clinton really cared about protecting the children from media they would start with the biggest problem first, which is apparently the MPAA.

I want someone to try and explain why the ESRB is in hot water without the MPAA being in similar or greater trouble. As far as I can tell is that Mrs. Clinton is biased in the matter that "of course no games should be M rated, because only children play games and aren't mature." While a movie with similar content is okay, as its generally accepted by society that some movies are for adults.

Finally as for the motion sensing of the Wii goes, I'm curious if Mrs. Clinton has actually played Manhunt 2 herself? Because if she did she would realize that the weak little flicks of the wrist needed to perform the necessary actions in the game can in no way represent the actual physicality needed to perform these actions in real life.


I hope to receive some sort of response to this that will prove that Mrs. Clinton isn't just furthering bigotry against adult video game players. Either that or I vote Libertarian in the next election.

Thank you.
Ugh.. And still the guns are freely available.. And no one seems to care..
"Unlike the British Board, the ESRB reduced the revised version’s rating to “Mature” (M) effectively opening the door to its widespread distribution and its licensing approval by game system manufacturers Sony and Nintendo. And, while significant progress has been made, the FTC reports that 42 percent of unaccompanied children 13 to 16 years of age can still successfully purchase M-rated games meaning that the practical difference between an AO and M rating affects more than simply 17-yearolds."

Um... wait, wait, wait, so basically what they're saying is that any game over "T" should not exist because children might play them.


............. Oh give me a break!
I could be setting myself up in a bad position here, but after reading that letter, I honestly don't think most of it is that unreasonable. Some of it's unrealistic. (For example, that part about the uncensored version being leaked to the public by internet. I can't imagine how any policy of the ESRB's could possibly affect that.)

That said, they're not making any threats, they're not being belligerant (ala Jack), they're just asking questions. Personally, I think the most likely outcome is that Pat Vance will answer them. I'm inclined to think she's shown considerable diplomatic skill, I see no reason this would be any different. Essentially, everyone calling for their heads on a platter, take a deep breath, and don't worry about it; They're not even mandating an investigation, they're just asking questions.

(Granted, some of those questions are just plain bad.)

1) OK - we get it, the english banned the game. They're not unreasonable people, but there's certainly no guarantee that everything they do is right.
2) (The Wii Controller) -slaps forehead with palm-
Look, someone needs to explain to these people that yes, the wiimote is motion sensing. Does that mean you're "teaching the behavioral sequence of killing"? Frankly, no, and I consider them somewhat misguided for asking. I've only ever seen the Wiimote in action once on Manhunt2. The section was supposed to simulate chopping, and the guy playing was doing it by rocking his hand back and forth at the wrist. Love to see anybody chop like that, I couldn't even chop a tomato like that. Frankly, it was closer to masturbation then chopping.
3) (The internet leak) Look, even if you think you can prevent internet leaks, never mind that they've been happening for as long as the internet's around and will likely continue to happen for as long as we have an internet; the fact remains that you couldn't possibly think that's the ESRB's fault for crying out loud. You want to blame anybody for that, blame Rockstar and Sony.
4) The notion that the ESRB could be used to generate press buzz about a game is a semi-legitimate one. I actually can't fault that.

In short 3/4's of it seems misguided, but it doesn't give me the residual anger that most of the uptight anti-gamers do. Don't stress about it folks, all they're doing is asking questions and that's something they have a right to do. Look at the bright side, I'd rather have them asking questions then taking old Jacko's approach and flinging subpeonas at anything he clearly doesn't approve of.
This letter was available on Senator Lieberman\'s web site 5 days ago. You\'re just now getting it?

This is very bad news for the ESRB. Wait until the Senators realize that the ESRB also participated in leaving in the adult material. Maybe Patty will be modeling dresses for Target in her next job.

GP: I believe we were the first game site to cover the story itself. I've been holding the letter for a couple of days as an extra item. The other 999 staffers here have the Thanksgiving holiday off...

 
"The notion that the ESRB could be used to generate press buzz about a game is a semi-legitimate one. I actually can’t fault that."

That argument is pure bullshit.

Why don't they rail against the movie ads stating "Two Thumbs Up: Ebert and Roeper" or "Hilariously wonderful - Some Other Reviewer".

What is it to ESRB what publishers do with their marketing? Shouldn't the "fine" senators write the game publishers instead?
And just what "adult material" was left in Manhunt 2 "Winston"?
I'm Canadian, and as liberal minded as they come. Almost Michael Moore level (course, he happens to very popular here). That said, I hope my friends to the south will NOT elect this close-minded harpy called Hillary as their next president. If someone can't grasp a simple issue as "M means not for under 17 year olds", what hope do we have that she can grasp the more complex issues a world leader has to contend with, such as war, taxes, terrorism, and good old fashion corruption? God Bless America? More like, God Help America!

For the record, I don't hold the same contempt for America that most non-Americans have. I'd like to think that the vast majority of you guys are above average intellect. The idiotic and ignorant may make up the minority in your country, they just happen to be the noisiest.

And on the subject of Manhunt 2, I own it on PSP (which is not modified, BTW, so it's the same as other versions content wise) and can vouch for the accuracy of the M rating. Believe me, I've seen worse content get less attention. As someone pointed out, The Godfather on Wii is actually more violent than Manhunt 2 and also has motion controls, but you didn't hear anyone raise a stink about that, did you?

As an aside, I happen to think Manhunt 2 is underrated as a game. It's not the best game ever made (not by a long shot) and probably doesn't deserve all the hype and attention it's been getting. That said, it is still a fun diversion that I think is at least worth checking out as a rental (provided you are age appropriate, of course! It is NOT for kids.) Just wanted to say that.

And I can't stress this enough. If you have an underage child with a Wii, PS3, XBox 360, or PSP, USE THE FREAKING PARENTAL CONTROLS!!! I understand parents can't monitor what the children are doing 24/7 and that some may indeed get their hands on a game they shouldn't be playing. That doesn't mean you are powerless. The parental controls are there for a reason.

One more thing. These politicians don't seem to realize that the ESRB ratings are NOT the law. They are suggestions made voluntarily to help parents. The ratings and content descriptors are clearly displayed (more clearly than the MPAAs ratings and descriptors I might add) and are there for you to make your best judgment. Government regulation does not take the place of parenting any day.

As for the consistency and accuracy of the ESRBs work, I can say from my own experience that I trust them 100%. And this includes the Hot Coffee fiasco, since you still couldn't access it without illegal modification. If the politicians want the ESRB to play games in their entirety before assigning a rating, I say make THEM (the politicians) do it themselves, and see how unreasonable it is to do so. The ESRB are doing the best job they can and are doing very well at it IMHO. Leave them alone and let them do their job!

Sorry for the length of this rant, but sometimes a guy needs to vent.
Dear Joseph I. Lieberman
United States Senator

Sam Brownback
United States Senator

Evan Bayh
United States Senator

Hillary Rodham Clinton
United States Senator



Games Rated M for Mature mean that they are not for children. To claim that the game "allows children to act out many graphic torture scenes" is akin to saying that the hostel movies should be banned because the scenes may be disturbing to children.

not all videogames are for children senators. The sooner you learn that, the better off you will be. The market for videogames is NOT children under 18. infact it is 18-34 year olds which provide the most sales for videogames.

You make the claim about how the unrated version hack is available online, but are you trying to say that because you can use an illegal methood to obtain the original version, that the legal version of the game should be banned? once again, that is akin to being able to download an unrated version of dvd that is not out yet and because of that banning said movie.

On the issue of the raters, I think you really have no leg to stand on there since one of your own onnce tried to make a bill that would force game reviewers to play games entirely (which is impossible for games that have infinite replayability and online games like World of Warcraft) not to mention that online games always have the potential of others online to use words that would normally give a game a M rating when the content is no less than T.

In sum, I would ask that you kindly stay quiet on the issue of videogames, though I doubt you will, and use intelligence when talking about videogames, a form of entertainment consumed mostly by adults. Otherwise you make yourselves look like fools.

Sincerely
DCOW
Benjamin McDowell
Dear Jaded Critic: Slap your forehead all you want. The fact is that involving one\'s body in rehearsing violent behaviors is known to more likely modify behavior. The Dept. of Defense has found just that, as have police departments. You got some proof disproving the scientific evidence?
@Pixelantes Anonymous

Whoh, dude, just because there's a certain degree of hypocrisy in what they do doesn't mean the question is invalid; You're not going to get a whole lot of argument from me that they apply a different standard to different forms of media. You're right though, applying the principle fairly would require massive change over multiple industries. Seeing as how that's not likely to happen though, I've just gotten used to the hypocrisy. Does not mean the question is invalid, no. Narrow-minded? Yes. Misguided? Yes, but not still not an unreasonable question to ask. It is a FACT, that Manhunt2's AO rating generated CONSIDERABLE BUZZ about it.

Personally, I'm not inclined to let it sit at that though. Play it forward, 3 steps ahead, and for the sake of argument, accept that Manhunt2's AO rating generated allot of buzz about it. Did that help it sell more copies at all? Is MH2 selling that well? Anybody know? I haven't seen any figures. Either way, nothing I've seen makes me want to buy it, so the real question becomes, if these senators are concerned that the industry is using the ESRB as a PR tool to boost sales. It's not working. Sales are likely not being boosted. Seems pretty likely that no one's bought the game who wasn't going to buy it anyway regardless of the AO. If that's indeed true, there's no problem here.
"Dear Jaded Critic: Slap your forehead all you want. The fact is that involving one\’s body in rehearsing violent behaviors is known to more likely modify behavior. The Dept. of Defense has found just that, as have police departments. You got some proof disproving the scientific evidence?"


The paltry wrist flicks needed to perform the actions in Manhunt 2 is hardly "rehearsing violent behaviors", Jack.
Hey, when I hit the on play button on my DVD player often one character kills another character, maybe that is rehearsing violent behaviors. And if you turn enough pages in Romeo and Juliet sure enough Mercutio will die! So English professors are training to kill as well.
"Another disturbing aspect of this saga is that the AO version ended up being leaked on the Internet thereby circumventing the rating restrictions. News reports state that the leak came from a Sony employee, who was reportedly fired, rather than the game manufacturer. Nevertheless, the possible use of the internet to circumvent the ESRB and permit broad access to kids is another concern."

i would love to know what they think the ESRB can do about this, i mean, come on
I desperately hope that Hitlery doesn't make it to office.

To all US Voters:

If Hitlery makes it as the Deme-Crap Candidate, you have a duty not to vote for either party.
@Winston Hall

Enjoy another ban Thompson. Did you forget Dennis can IP check you?
@Winston Hall

Sure. Light gun games. Those games involve the body, and have been around for years. I've been around them since I was a kid. Duck Hunt and Hogan's Alley at the time. Hasn't helped me be any less phobic about guns. Used to know a guy who thought it was amazing that I'd be such a terror at Unreal Tournament and treat his real-guns like live angry serpents. Before anyone assumes the worst, YES, I am well aware that I am not a statistical sample onto myself.

I remain skeptical however, and I'll boil it down to it's simplest, my argument is that simulation does not necessarily follow motion sensing. To mimic an experience is not an accurate representation of said experience. I'm decent at Guitar Hero, that doesn't mean I know a damn thing about the real mccoy. There's a WII swordfighting game or two out there, no one could possibly believe that completing that game trains you properly to handle a real kitana.

For the sake of argument, I will admit that motion-sensing does bring us one step closer to simulation, however, we're not they're yet. Proficiency at DDR does not necessarily mean you can dance.
@ Jaded Critic

There are flaws in your reasonings. We have disbuted this repeatedly and in various forms with JBT but you must not have been paying attention.

You state that involving one's body in rehearsing violent behaviors is known to more likely modify behavior.

Tell me: Have you ever sword/lightsaber fought with broom handles? Had hotwheels or other small cars as a small child and had them wreck and explode? Play Army/Cowboys and Indians? Played darts? (lethal weapon you know) Most child have. These btw are normal healthy children that go on to become normal healthy adults. They acted in ways "that involving one’s body in rehearsing violent behaviors" yet did not go on to become the mass murders you imply.

Yet the WII remote is much less invasive than those activities listed. Guess the difference lies in the person. Can they (can You) tell the difference between playing a game and doing a thing with harmful intent?
Ignorance in its purest form. 2 seconds of research would yield all the counter-evidence against these politicians' points.

1. M Rated games ARE NOT for children.
2. M Rated games ARE NOT being sold TO children.
3. The Wii and PS3 have parental controls.
4. The Wii and PS3 don't even allow the play of AO games, regardless of parental control settings.
If Winston Hall is Jack, which is quite likely from the content and tone of the posts, then it is amusing as hell. Jack will have become what he has always called many of us here, an anonymous coward.
Apoligies to JadedCritic. Misread the post. Should have been directed at Winston Hall
@Icehawk

"You state that involving one’s body in rehearsing violent behaviors is known to more likely modify behavior"

When did I ever say that? I thought I just wrote two posts revolving around the idea that simulation does not necessarily follow motion-sensing. Is it possible you've confused me with someone else?
Well, i missed THIS boat by a little bit. This should be good. Let's get some clarification. Survey says...!
@Icehawk

Cool - apology accepted. I'll admit you had me confused for a second though. Was wondering how I could've been that badly misinterpreted.
Was your post directed at Winston and my game-dead brain (been playing Mass Effect to much and still trying to work) crosswired it.

BTW John Bruce: If you are do read this I thought I would point out another basic truth for you to attempt to digest. We the brain dead, mass murdering, social outcasts will still apoligize when we are wrong. Sad that you seem to have failed in that basic social skill as well.
Even more distressing then video games is the fact that in 100% of cases, children under the age of 18 can purchase and read books that are clearly written for adults. I feel the senators should be promptly alerted to this menace, and take the next logical step. The reasoning they propose for limiting video games is even more of a threat with the written word.

Children can buy them without any restrictions. Some are clearly not appropriate for children. Many contain violent of sexual content. People can even photocopy a book and distribute it via illegal means. Jack Thompson can even make up research to show that repeated exposure to this type of violent imagery can turn everyone into serial killers.

Currently, there is not even a ratings board for literature. How would you feel if your 13 year old could buy A ClockWork Orange? This book has been severely criticized for violent content. If children can have access to these works, when it is clearly not age appropriate, there is only one action. Ban them. Better yet, burn them in large piles. Maybe we could have a dedicated group that goes around to confiscate and burn these dangers. We could call them Firemen.
@Icehawk

Truth be told if it had occurred to me that Winston might be jack I wouldn't have bothered replying to him - nothing I say will ever get through to him.
@ jadedcritic

Thought crossed my mind as well. Tis an odd name and one I have never seen here before AND preaching for things that JBT would have us believe. Suspicious at the very least.

You sir are correct in that trying to say things to him that he does not wish to hear has proven pointless. Honestly I should know better but find I cannot help myself at times. Those like JBT and even politicians as screwed up as they appear, must still have Some semblence of a human soul in there somewhere that can be reached and reasoned with. Right?

Then again I have been told I suffer with an incurable will-to-believe. Sigh
So much Bs to shift through in that letter so little time

"Dear Ms. Vance, We are writing to suggest that it may be desirable to revise or enhance the current ESRB rating system. We continue to believe that the ESRB takes seriously its responsibility with respect to the ratings and their enforcement. However, we believe that a number of issues have been raised regarding the release of Manhunt 2."

Translation: We're going to try to tell you how to do your job because we're upset about manhunt 2.


"In October 2007 the BBFC again refused to rate a revised Manhunt 2 stating that "[t]he impact of the revisions on the bleakness and callousness of tone, or the essential nature of the gameplay, is clearly insufficient. There has been a reduction in the visual detail in some of the 'execution kills', but in others they retain their original visceral and casually sadistic nature." Other countries agreed and have also banned the game."

Translation: Because we have an anti-game bias we agree with the BBFC decision more and are trying to get you to follow suit.

Honestly why should the BBFC's decision matter? They banned the game for its bleakness and callousness in tone. That's a horrbile reason to ban anything, does that mean they'll ban the Raven next.

"Unlike the British Board, the ESRB reduced the revised version's rating to "Mature" (M) effectively opening the door to its widespread distribution and its licensing approval by game system manufacturers Sony and Nintendo. And, while significant progress has been made, the FTC reports that 42 percent of unaccompanied children 13 to 16 years of age can still successfully purchase M-rated games meaning that the practical difference between an AO and M rating affects more than simply 17-year-olds."

By significant progress they mean the number is getting closer and closer to 0 every year.

"Manhunt 2 was sanctioned by Nintendo for its Wii system. That system permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders in Manhunt 2 rather than simply manipulating a game pad."

First off the game IS NOT MEANT FOR CHILDREN, there's a big old M on the game which means it's not suitable for children. If a child has gotten his hands on the game that is not the ESRB's or Rockstar's falt. If Hillary can't even get these basic facts straight even though they've been repeated numerous times I shudder to think what she'll be like as president.

"This led one clinical psychologist to state that the realistic motions used with the Wii mean that "you're basically teaching a child the behavioral sequencing of killing." While this was not cited as the reason for the BBFC decision, we do believe that the ESRB should take the Wii remote controller, and future advances in game controllers, which create more realistic gaming environments, into consideration."

Even though there have been tons of proffesionals saying that psychologist is wrong, and waving the wiimote around is about as realistic as waving a stick, and kids have been playing with fake swords for a very long time she's gonig to ignore all that jsut to complain and look good for the voters.

"Another disturbing aspect of this saga is that the AO version ended up being leaked on the Internet thereby circumventing the rating restrictions. News reports state that the leak came from a Sony employee, who was reportedly fired, rather than the game manufacturer."

NOT THE ESRB'S FAULT. . . AT ALL! Really it seems like she's just listing a bunch of vaguely related 'points' just to sound important and appeal to voters.

"Nevertheless, the possible use of the internet to circumvent the ESRB and permit broad access to kids is another concern."

Parents can also circumvent the ESRB but she doesn't complain about that. Also using the internet to cimcurmvent the ESRB has only happened a couple of times and thus it is a very very small problem (not to mention illegal to do in the first place). Also if a kid gets a game rated for a more mature audience that is entirely out of the ESRB's control.

" First, there appears to be a lack of information, to the public and developers, regarding why a particular rating is given or changed."

Actually they provide developers with all the information they need as to why a rating is changed, just not the public since they don't need to know.


"Why is information regarding rating changes or reasons for decisions unavailable, except for content descriptors, to the public?"

Because the Esrb isn't allowed to, it's part of the contract when they rate ANY game.

"We understand to some extent the concerns regarding the confidentiality of pre-released materials however that argument is no longer compelling after the product is released."

But the contract still stands.

"Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating."

Oh not that old conspiracy theory again,


"A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner."

It really wouldn't

"Further, do the same reviewers view the original and the revised version of a game after an AO rating is received? How frequently do you use more than your minimum of three reviewers when evaluating a game? Are three reviewers adequate for the more violent games? How often do your reviewers disagree in their initial ratings and how frequently is the final rating a majority opinion rather than a consensus?"

I'd actually like to know the answers to these questions.
Probably already been said, but I love how they're using the leak of the AO version as ammo against it. Because children are smart enough to mod their systems or figure out a way to play a burned game off the internet...
Ironic how they criticize ESRB's minimal raters limit of a few people when a few people wrote this letter. Sure, There are reports of games labled M being sold to unaccompanied children. Isn't it the retailer's and parent's fault for not paying attention to their children. I don't care even if the parents may have busy job sceduels, it's their carrer choice and they shouldn't rely on the goverment to do their priority job for them.

And I find more flaws with the Movie rating system rather than the ESRB. Actualy, throughout my life I have never noticed an error in ESRB but plenty in the MPAA's ratings. Take Hostel for example, how is that any better than the origional Manhunt? At least in Manhunt the victims are murderers themselves, in hostel, the victims are completly innocent.

Why doesn't Hillary consider writing a letter of concern to the MPAA? Oh yeah, that's right... The MPAA is also a lobbyist group. And we all know Hillary's stance on Lobbyism versus other Democratic Presidential Canidates...

Well Patritia Vance, support Hillary for president and you should not face any problems from her anymore.
So, because the BBFC thinks Manhunt is bad, ESRB should too?

How about the fact that violence in entertainment in the UK has always been rated more harshly than violence in entertainment in the US? And that sexual content has been rated less harshly? Shall they go back and re-rate all entertainment material based on what the BBFC thinks? Because -that- would make sense, them being a separate organization based in an entirely different country and all.

That issue aside, I'm really getting tired of the perceived attitude that everyone who does not play video games seems to have: "it's a video game, it must be for children."

Seriously, is that mentality going to die sometime soon? =/ It would be nice if it did without having to wait for a generation of gamers to fill up the seats in the senate.
What is so goddamn hard for these people to understand that it's the stores who sell the games. There's a rating system already that works pretty damn well. M is for those OVER 17 YEARS OF AGE! The ESRB should just adopt the rating system that the MPAA use because obviously it is so fucking difficult to understand what exactly is in the game, especially when the game has it labeled right on the fucking back what is included in the game.
Ugh...

If it comes down to Hilary and any of the republican candidates, I won't even vote.

I see no point in choosing between a douchebag and a turd sandwich.
The motion sensing thing they try to make an issue really is darling though. I really don't think you would wield a sledgehammer with one hand with minor flicks of the wrist, while sitting on a couch while eating potato chips with your other hand(as I did while playing Manhunt 2) and expect to do any harm in the real world.
@Erik

Heh, exactly why I say the Wiimote can't exactly mimic a weapon.
Why don't the senators force the console makers to allow AO games on their systems thus making thos games rare and hard to find since 80+ % or retail wont sell it.

There children protected the day is won!
@DCOW - Excellent and well written letter, I sent mine too, let us know if you hear back...

Hillary has the most to lose because she's running for office and she doesn't think there are such a thing as "ga