I'd say something were it not for the fact that school shootings have been going on way before Video Games were on the scene.

That's a fact Yee, Thompson and the other censors would prefer you to forget.

sigh.....
poor kid

its quit sad.
from all the countrys in the world, its amerca who got the highest score.
shame on those wasted youth.
manson talked a bout long ago, yet again no one listen, no one care.

In this instance I do think there needs to be some parental accountability. Yes Matthew is, ulitmately, responsible for his own actions. He made the choice to do what he did. However one has to wonder what might have been if not for the pressure cooker he was put in by his parents.

There's no easy answer to this. His parents did have the right to raise him with whatever rules and restrictions they felt were right. They weren't breaking the law with their rules so, legally, there's no accountability. While they had the right, I'm not sure if it was the right thing to do. It all comes down to common sense and trust.

Other than that. I'm not really sure what needs to be said.

Seems to me Murray's case is less of the "ultra violent video games caused me to kill," and more of a case of "ultra-conservative paranoid parents caused me to kill."

Irony.

@bloodysky

manson talked a bout long ago, yet again no one listen, no one care.

I remember that line from Bowling for Columbine. Where he said he would have done what no-one else would. Talk to them... and listen.

It sounds like he tried out several religious groups, and didn't fit in to any of them. Each time he was either asked to leave, or found himself distanced from the group. "Personality conflict".

I know it sounds cliche, but it really sounds like this guy needed a friend.

Oh, and just another thing to point out. He was 24...

@Dog_Welder

There was certainly a lack of trust on the part of his parents. That and a good helping of paranoia, but do we really want to qualify what they did as abuse? Like I said, there's no easy answer to this one. All we can do is analyze the facts and try to make heads or tails of it all.

You notice the copycat stuff that's happened the past ten days.


First the Omaha killings, then the Colorado Christian killings, then I hear yesterday 6 people were shot (not fatal thank God) somewhere near Vegas. I'm tellin' ya, every time a loon goes out and does this, other loons learn about it on the tv or other media sources and then they go out and start icing people. They come out of the woodwork.

I recently had a discussion where I said that crime is actually going down for the past 15 years, and with all the 24 hour news, it ONLY SEEMS, that there is an epidemic of this killing stuff. Turns out that these things are few and far between. No country has more guns than the US, yet you don't see genocide every day!

In fact the first 75 years of the 20th century were the most bloody and horrific ever. Nearly 200 million killed in the 2 world wars, various genocides, and Cold War conflicts like Korea and Vietnam.

Guess what? No videogames then.

I rest my case.

A thorough examination of various articles, including postings by him, show a great deal of verbal and mental abuse, at the least, against him. Does that excuse what he did? Absolutely not! Yet, what facts we do know include that his home life was "very, very religious", that he was home schooled (not a "bad" thing in and of itself, but taken with the whole...), was kicked out of a religious school because of unspecified health issues (some articles claim mental problems but they are unconfirmed), and clearly a strict home life of distrust by his Parents (whether warranted or not isn't certain).

The (mis)users and abusers of tragedies will latch on, either screaming about "pop culture" or even "christianity", but the fact is that this individual's life was filled with, at the least, verbal and mental abuse, and possibly other health issues which didn't improve things. We know that many abuse victims may rebel in small or large ways against their abusers, and sometimes, that rebellion turns to hate on a larger scale and even may lead to violence.

It's true that it sucks to be a kid. Parents do make decisions that a kid doesn't agree with. And sometimes Parents make decisions that other Parents or unrelated individuals don't agree with. The fact is that, apparently, these Parents choose an extremely strict stance, both in raising him socially and otherwise. We can argue that it's the fault of "the Christians" but the fact remains that this was a choice of these specific Parents and that's who I hold responsible for that strict upbringing. Was it "right" or "wrong"? Everyone has their own methods. Was it earned discipline (was he untrustworthy before the discipline) or was it proactive (did they treat him this way from the beginning)? Certainly, it's clear it ended up backfiring because of the path he ended up taking. And that backfiring may have had help from other issues such as health issues.

Did the "pop culture" contribute to the shooting itself? I don't believe so, but then the only person who knows was him. Did it contribute to the "backlash"? It's possible. BUT, I believe the level of strictness was first and left him following a path that would set him at a risk of snapping in some fashion. It is, after all, just as possible that without that "pop culture" influence, that he could have committed the same act but against the "opposition" of his specific "Christian" faith. Does that mean it WOULD happen? Probably not. But he was clearly a powder keg, and his "rebellion" was, in his mind clearly from his writings, against those he felt made life horrible for him and others.

Who was responsible for the shootings? He was. No maker of any of the "pop culture" nor any of those religious individuals (his Parents or the school or others) are responsible for the shootings. There is no foresight that can decide that any exposure to the religion or "pop culture" would lead any individual down any particular path. The choices made by his Parents did lead him down certain paths, but they had no notion of where it would lead. They are responsible for their own actions, not his, like it or not.

Could anything have been done to prevent this tragedy? Certainly no legislation dictating what is or is not appropriate (whether it be a taught religious belief or various "pop culture" products or anything else) for other people's children will prevent such events. Could anything have been done within this specific case with this specific individual? Only speculation can we call on because we cannot view the infinite possiblities of alternatives. Nor do we know ALL the facts regarding this situation. Only someone who wants to abuse the families and community that suffered this tragedy would try to use it to push their agenda(s).

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

Sounds like abusive parents made him snap.

nightwng2000 you have a point.
but dont forget. cause and effect.
bad raising, bad fruit.

GP,
Point taken about not becoming a religious flame war. But we already know that throughout the internet, it has become so. Religious blogs defending the religious aspect. Posters railing against "Christianity".

Oddly enough, it does bring to mind that Rebecca Walsh story regarding the Utah Mall shooter earlier this year about how people were jumping on the bandwagon blaming "pop culture" or the "Muslim" religion for the shooters reaction. I LOVED that article, but haven't been able to find it since. Though "pop culture" and "Christianity" are playing a more clearer role in this case than similar issues played in the Utah Mall shooting, I think the psychologist(?) in that article may still be on the right track even for this case. Can you dig up that article again? Thanks.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

@nightwing

I agree, everyone knows it boils down to far more than simply media intake, what infuriates me is that no-one in a position to do anything about helping young men like this find someone to talk to, or get some help or counselling, are more interesting in bolstering their careers by making feelgood anti-video game laws. It's disgusting to see the needs of the people outweighed by the ambitions of their representatives.

@GP

In respect to you (its your blog after all), I will refrain from comment- but I do believe there is a significant religious element to this discussion.

I actually grew up in a way similar to this kid. I wasn't allowed to buy cd(or cassette tapes) or movies(vhs in my day) unless they were Christian. Though my parents were never psycho about it and I was able to play NES and genesis. I turned out relatively well adjusted but I think that was because despite the restrictions I still had good parents. What is weird to me though is that they banned video games, dvds, etc. but guns are ok( at least I'm assuming this since he had access to the weapons).

There is a massive religious element to this, Dennis. You can't avoid the discussion about it sadly. Are you afraid of the juxtaposition of games to Christianity?

Unfortunately, like in any religion, there are some that take it far more seriously than others. Imposing it on people, forcing them into corners that they cannot get out of. Its just a tragedy that someones idea of "good" got warped accidentally, leadin to this.

does anyone think that this is going to go unnoticed by the people who have a soapbox to stand on and an agenda to push?

I'm glad JT is busy with his disciplinary trial and is permabanned from here now. Even if video games weren't involved, you know he'd use this as an excuse to go on the warpath again. Not only would he say Murray was a gamer with little to no evidence to back him up, but he'd also try to use this as evidence about how his faith is being attacked and persecuted by the likes of us. :P

The truth of the matter is that it's really a question of how the mental health care system has consistently failed at helping young adults, particularly young males. Until we realize that's where the problem truly lies, and not with things like video games, will we actually begin to figure out why this keeps happening. Fortunately it seems that the news media is beginning to wake up to this, as evidenced by their coverage of the Virignia Tech shooting. It looks like they're looking elsewhere for serious answers and not trying to pin it on facile ones like video games like they used to.

Regarding Murray's upbringing, actually I kind kind of understand. I have a friend who was also brought up in an ultra-strict and religous household. She had been through a bad marriage and been forced to move back in with her parents after her divorce. She sufferers from Apsergers syndrome and depression and is currently fighting to get disability as she is unable currently to get and hold a job. Her therapy sessions have been helpful, but not as much as she'd like. It got to the point where she couldn't stand it and she said had she not gotten herself out of there, she would have killed someone or herself. She currently lives in a nice halfway house furnished by the state and she says she's a lot happier there than she was at her parents' home.

With that in mind and based on everything I had read about Murray's life in other news reports, it's easy for me to understand what happened. Clearly he resented the idea of religion being forced on him and he lashed back. This does not excuse what he did by any means, but it helps to make what he did make sense.

i dont know about every one else here but i use video games as an escape and a way to release stress and anger

im never gonna keep video games from my kids

Bad parenting creates little monsters. End. Of. Story.

(I will, of course, forgo the rant on Fundamentalists at GP's request.)

If you try and force a worldview on a young (teenaged) person, hiding him/her from things that have no ill effects when coupled with strong parenting, treating DVDs, music, and video games as evil - with no reasoning, just brute force - you will create a person at best ill equipped to deal with adult life, and at worst? Read the headlines.

You see? That's the kind of shit that makes people kill.

Sigh... So he DID play video games. Although unspecified, ANY game is enough to convince dense politicians and lawyers that it's the games that corrupted him. Even though there had to have been some 'corruption' already considering he had to secretly go against his parents' wishes to get them.

And yes, there are unavoidable religious elements to this, but I believe Dennis means he doesn't want us to drop the main topic, which is the Colorado shooter, and devolve into a bunch of people insulting or theatening eachother over their religious differences. In other words, stay with the topic, and keep it civilized. That's my interpretation, anyway.

Even with these facts out there ,there is still going to be alot of people blaming videogames for this horrible crime.Yesterday I saw Dr. Keith Ablow blame the internet and videogames for the tragedy in Colorado and Virgina tech on Neil Cavuto's on fox news , regardless of the fact that the virgina tech shooter did not play violent games.As soon as I find the link, I will post the link to the video here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Growing up, TV, Internet/computers, video games, music, Christian contemporary music, movies and books were all extremely restricted. All those things carried this……mystique about them. They were like these mythical things imbued with incredible power straight from Satan, all run by Satanist covens operating out of Hollywood, Washington D.C.(when Bill Clinton was in office), and abortion clinics. Except there was one problem…………the senior pastor and his close church friends and their families all watched TV/Cable TV, had the internet, listened to at least some non-Christian music and all listened to CCM, video games(including those satanic “T” and “M” rated ones), and all, especially the senior pastor, had “R” Movie collections. Me and some of the other non-elite church youth and members asked about these contradictions but never received any answers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You know, with double standards like that, it's not surprising the poor young man was driven to distraction...

I can't think of a time where either a single atheist or group of atheists shot up a church, flew into a building, or shoved people into a gas chamber.

@GDog

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can’t think of a time where either a single atheist or group of atheists shot up a church, flew into a building, or shoved people into a gas chamber.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't doubt that it has probably happened in history, but it is an interesting point.

What's really depressing is that there are, without doubt, groups who will now try to paint this young man as an atheist 'plant' in their society, sent purely to do this. We all know it's bull, but I've seen enough of humanities inclination to blame 'things' rather than fix the actual problem to know that it will happen.

nightwng2000
i see now.
each one hold his own responspilty.
how did i miss that?
a fantasic point nightwng2000;)

@bloodysky
There is nothing wrong with our gun control system in the USA. The only people who think there is are people who've never worked with it, and the anti-gun crowd (and the people the anti-gun crowd has fooled into believing that all police officers are shot with Assault Rifles, those evil, evil tools of carnage).

It's not chrisitianity that's to blame, its the pentacostal lifestyle, which is terrible at socializing their young peole into American society. You can't go to the movies, you can't go to dances, you can't do anything. It's one of those sects that is just crazy when all is said and done, and as I mentioned before, people raised pentacostal have trouble later in life (for the most part).

Of course, it's not only the parents' fault that their kid ended up like this. He was, apparently, thrown out of activities in certain other religious groups because he 'talked to voices in his head' "dont' worry Richard, I won't shoot you... the voices like you" DIRECT FUCKING QUOTE.

This kid was as crazy as a hatter.

@Black Manta
In order for that shift in Paradigm for our Mental Institutes, we'd need to change the politician's views. Which would require not voting in Hitlery, Huckabee, etc., and really, it is more of a wait until the gamer generation gets into the political arena before we'll see a policy shift.

FINALLY, A POLICY SHIFT?

Hah, doesn't surprise me one bit. I think I can pick out a real culprit that motivated this attack: forced indoctrination in X. This is what happens when you shove X down the throat of an unwilling person who does not value X, simply because you are so arrogant in the truth of X that you do not see the enromous problems assossiated with X.

X = Green Beans, Turnips, and Dallas Cowboy Football Games.

Since Dennis forbade me from speaking my mind freely, and refuses to acknowledge the evil motivating factor behind this attack, I'll leave you to ponder over what X exactly is. I'm tired of people not taking a firm stand against the perverse X hate that is censoring, destroying, and attacking nearly every right in this country [including games]. This is a fine example of what happens when the autonomy of an individual is suppressed by X.

Keep patting yourselves on your back, wiggling your toes, and thinking that everything is okay. They'll keep chipping away at your freedoms, enforcing X status quos, and inhibiting the progression of the industry.

Well let this be a lesson that entertainment media doesn't drive people crazy, crazy parents do. Hey, weren't the Columbine kids also church-goers? But I doubt anyone's going to try and make a correlation between school shootings and church anytime soon, which seems like a double-standard.

@PitViper and Pandralisk
Fuck you guys. The Patriots, there's the evil football devil.

"LIES! HE STOLE THE GAMES!"

That's what i'm expecting will happen here...

@Bill

I think it is an equal an opposite reaction to the way gamers are generally considered by politicians, who judge us by Media that they know little if anything about. Those of us who post on here have had to deal with ignorance from all kinds of sources, it can be kind of contagious.

I don't agree with blaming the parents, though the contradictions in his life, according to his posts, probably didn't help, but yeah, we shouldn't go claiming that everything this young man says is stone-cold fact without some sort of confirmation, else we sink to the same level of Thompson and others.

I'm starting to notice a correlation between depression and shootings. In the words of the legendary Mugatu...

"They're all the same! Doesn't anybody see this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!!!"

@bloodysky
Because parents are fucking retarded in most cases.

An FBI study including 112 inmates from violent crimes found that 109 out of the 112 had gotten their firearms illegally, often from other members of gangs in exchange for money or drugs or from houses they stole from (because contrary to popular belief, people break in during the day, not at night, so leaving a shotgun under your bed will result in your shotgun being stolen, sawed off, and used in the next break-in).

The main problem with crazy people getting weapons lies in the hands of psychologists/psychiatrists, many of whom never bothered to add the information to their record that they had been in a mental institute and were unfit for gun ownership. In one state (Arizona, I think, but I honestly can't remember) there were only 3 people in the whole state who were restricted from gun ownership because they were instituionalized in a mental care facility, although there were (obviously) many more people put in the loony bin than recorded.

Don't blame gun control, let's place blame where blame is due; with lazy fucking doctors.

Also, goddamn it kid, learn to write a fucking sentence.

"I remember getting thrown around the room and hit while getting interrogated about whether or not I had video games and DVDs… I remember having to listen to everything in secret, at very low volume levels or with headphones, whether it was video games, TV, DVDs, or music/radio."

And someone will still blame video games, not, for instance, that he appears to have been physically and mentally abused.

Pandralisk, I have heard a quote like this one before:

"Since Dennis forbade me from speaking my mind freely, and refuses to acknowledge the evil motivating factor behind this attack".

It came from Jack Thompson. It's not entirely your message, it's how you present it. Which is precisely the reason Jack has gotten banned before.

Dennis, as you requested, I wont go into any relegious stuff.

Frankly, i don't see that as the cause.

I think that what is really the cause here is the problem off indoctrination and Parental domination.

Dont get me wrong, parents need to keep certain limits on there kids of course, but the kind of isolation and indoctrination this kid went through would have made me a violent looney as well.

Religons come in an endless supply of varitions practicly. Slapping blame on them just cause the kid was a christian or something seems almost as silly as blaming games.

Anyway, Im sure some nuts will bitch that games were the cause.

We all know thats bs.

*paltry.

Dammit.

Sadly, the message that will be seen from this is "See? The parents DID their job in making sure he didn't have ultra-violent video games, yet he got them anyway by hiding from them! This is why the government must step in and ban them for everyone!"

It's the whole "you can parent your child, but you can't parent your child's friends" debate that I hate oh so very much.

@Bobby Blackwolf

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. The answer to that is of course, 'If the parents had got involved with their child instead of treating them like a robot without feelings or opinions of their own, he wouldn't have had to mislead them, being a good parent doesn't purely mean making sure your child does what you tell them (and, strictly speaking, he didn't even do that). It's about understanding your child and helping your child understand you.'

It's often the second half that is forgotten

I agree, it's up to the parents what content is allowed in the house, it's their roof, and their child is living under it. I am saddened by the events, but I am far more infuriated by the fact the Governmental hand is used solely for pointing and accusing, they never use that hand to reach out and help.

"It seemed like he was involved in his own spiritual battle against the empire of Christianity," adding that one of the screen names, nghtmrchld26, is taken from a video game in which characters battle evil demons."

And what game would that be?

"Another memorable incident occurred at a missionary Christmas party where attendees grouped together and some sang songs in the talent-show atmosphere, Werner said.

"He just went up there to sing, and one of the songs was 'I'm One Step Closer to the Edge,' which really upset people," Werner said.

The Linkin Park song culminates with the anguished phrase "I'm about to break!" "

Could it be that he just happened to like that song? I have that on my Ipod

Sorry, not 19, bad maths day, 17 :)

@Broken Scope

I suspect that even more have been persecuted by China's anti-religion laws.

@ Broken Scope

Actually, I'm hearing two stories from friends at Colorado Spring (at USAFA)

1. He killed himself in the end.
2. Assam (the woman) did in fact end the man's life.

@GoodRobotUs
Read my earlier post on how that's happening.

It's not the games or movies or lack there of that creates these nut cases. It's the worthless, incompetent parents. It's deep causes such as abuse, broken homes, and economic disparities. Of course, we can't go after the real causes. We need to waste time on "teh evul vidoe gamez!!1!!!11!1lim(x->0)x/sinx"

@GoodRobotUs

because in all other countries, only law abiding citizens have guns?

Gun control and medical privacy rights.

Bloody fucking mess right there.

Not to mention how do you determine eligability, is a guy who was depressed in middle school not allowed to own a gun in his twenties? The hard part with that is trying to figure out who sets the rules and who has an agenda when making the rules.

Isn't it like 90% of all gun crime that's committed is by people who obtained guns illegally(probably so as not to leave a trail)? It that is true, taking away guns from those who own them legally wouldn't resolve the issue.

Well, it seems he DID play video games! Thanks for putting this into the hands of the anti-video game activists, Dennis. What were you thinking?

GP: as always, I'm thinking of reporting the facts. And anyway, games are so ubiquitous in modern youth culture, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who hasn't indulged...

@ William Panderlust

If you're trying to act like another JT Proxy-ban-evading-alt, don't please.

@William Panderlust

You only have to read the report to see that some 'experts' are already trying to angle the whole thing to being caused by video games (The Nightmare Child comment etc), so I don't doubt this would have hit the mainstream at some point, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if Dennis got emailed a link to this story with 'Gamer, obviously' tagged onto it. We all know how Thompson works.

GP: actually, no. I saw the Denver Post mention of games via my daily run of automated Google searches.

@GoodRobotUs

but if the majority of gun crimes are due to illegal obtaining of weapons, what do you propose?
making getting a gun harder for a normal person doesn't necessarily make it harder to get illegally.

Just to make it clear, I was being sarcastic, heh.

Sounds like it was the parents fault that he lost it :/ .

So, then, what\'s up with the headline? He DID play video games. He says he did!

You know, I was thinking back to one of JT's excuses that kids were bring guns to school for 200 years without there ever being a school shooting. Then I started thinking about the kind of guns that they had 200 years ago; the musket. For those who slept through the Revolutionary War in American history class, the Brownbess musket common in the Americas shortly after the Revolution had an effective range of 50 yards, after which it became wildly inaccurate. Fifty yards is 150 feet, or about the wing span of a Jumbo jet. Combined with the fact that it takes 20 second to reload and when in the hands of the common man used mainly to hunt for food to keep one's family from starving, well, makes a poor choice for a shooting spree. Now lets move forward 100 to the Old West, when everyone and their brother had a firearm and people were ever so trigger happy. Now, discounting individuals like Billy the Kid, who claimed to have killed 21 men by the time he turned 21, there could also be an explanation on why there were no examples of a 'school shooting spree'. First off, most schools were rather small so students would not be overlooked as they are in modern school, secondly students weren't undulated in homework as they are now, thirdly even if they did flip the whole town was pretty much armed so they wouldn't get very far. Of course, this also isn't counting details such as the long reload time for ball/percussion cap pistols or even the Colt Single Action Army, or how there have been several accounts of gun duels that took place in close quarters with the shooters missing each other at point blank range.

Now, lets fast forward to the 1920's-30's when gang land crime was rampant. It was the heyday of the snub nose .38 revolver, the Thompson sub-machine gun, and the sawed off shotgun. People were being shot on almost a daily basis in Chicago, New York and Boston by gang wars. Many familys were effected by the depression and had much more on their minds that being angsty and wanting to shoot up their school. Children were working to provide money for the family so that they could eat and have heat, and many started full time jobs at 16-17. For them it was more about being able to survive to see their next meal, or not freeze in winter.

Now, onto the '60, also a violence prone period. The civil rights movement was in high swing with marches sit-ins, and other non-violent protests. Meeting these activities was absolute brutality from symbols of authority such as police officers, and the governor of Alabama. The Vietnam war was on the horizon, the red scare in full swing, the fear of the draft, recreation drug use was almost a plague, and tensions were high. Yet the only recorded school shooting took place at the college in Texas with the man who barricaded himself in the tower. However this was also the height of serial killers such as Son of Sam, Zodiac, and the Night Stalker. People were afraid and had way too much to worry about than feeling sorry for their angsty selves.

Now, modern times. You have kids who go to school to learn about to be students, as many high schools either cut out or completely eliminate their Shop programs. Kids are being bombarded with homework and stressed to exceede by parents who let the school do their parenting for them, and generally feel ignored or unloved by their family, as they feel they are being pushed too hard and not shown much graditude for their efforts. Many have no one to talk to in order to release their pent up frustration and stress and end up acting out in a variety of ways. Some join gangs, other take up random graffity of public and private property, but a very rare few are so engulfed in hate, depression and self-pity that random violence seems like the only answer to them.

Perhaps JT should stop scapegoating because he's looking for a fat pay-off, and instead look at the parents for failing their most important job: being a parent.

Lets see young Matthew was Mentally and physically abused. Yet it seems Yee figures the it was the games (escapism) and not abuse (probably never acknowledged) that pushed him over the edge.

His parents (and I use the term lightly) are the ones that should be blamed and punished but of course will not, no no it Had to be games. They were only trying to keep from from the evils of such... the abuse was for his "own good". Gods that makes me sick.

@ GO,

Incorrect, the Far West was a serious bussness place, not some kind of trigger happy party.

In the great mafia era, they perhaps were party crashs, but I don't know since the mafia took the headlines by reapeted assault.

They were school shooting too, back when some people didn't like mondays.

I blame The Golden Compass.

@ Anonymous

I only say they were trigger happy in the American West because of all the incidents recorded of people being shot over trivial matters or by drunks firing off their guns randomly and end up killing someone.

@ GO,

I'm happy, then. :) History freaks make great pals. They can get a bit bitchy, too.

@Jonwanker

yes, but thats is an important issue, isn't it?


back on topic
srsly, trying to force some a christian is ridiculously stupid and counter productive. also, = fail on every level.

What always interests me is how children get the guns in the first place. With many cases it always aludes me on how they get one, then they keep it secrect.

@ Pandralisk

Now thats a little over the top. X didn't make him do it. Unless X is his parents or the voices in his head.

X= What ever the hell you want it to be

@Broken Scope
Kinda lulzy, I just bought a mosin nagant this month. hahaa.

Also, I have an AK-74. A real one, Class III and everything.

@Cheeselikescereal

He was 24 years old...


Thats not a kid, thats a legal adult.

What happened to "Don't make it a religious argument".

Why can't we just agree to disagree?

@HurricaneJesus

I'd like to say something to you that I've said to Klandralisk, Some of us are Christians AND are fighting for your rights. Quit being an ungrateful douche.

@ HurricaneJesus

1.What church teaches you to hate blacks???
2.I personally think guns are cowardly. It takes more skill to kill with a blade or some kind of blunt instrument.

You know, using Jackholian logic I think it's safe to say access to video games and music are essential to preventing mass murders.

I say we lobby our congresscritters for a law that mandates daily video gaming sessions.

Who's with me!?

@ Shaesyco

If I'm not mistaken, there were definitely some church leaders who tried to use the Bible to justify slavery. Especially considering the rampant racist hysteria during the Civil Rights movement, I don't think it would be too great an assumption.

Btw, are you serious? Guns are cowardly, that's what you're getting from this?

@ jonwanker

1. True
2. I rather kill with something other than a gun. That has always been my stance on the whole gun issue.

@ Erik

I don't agree.

@Shaesyco

Then you don't know what the purpose of weapons are.

@Austin Lewis

"Kinda lulzy, I just bought a mosin nagant this month. hahaa.

Also, I have an AK-74. A real one, Class III and everything."

Yeah, we've run into a few problems.. We sent you Bin Ladens order.

For the record I was raised catholic, went to catholic school, am confirmed, and attend church every sunday. I do question my faith, and believe that God would want that. No way in hell am I going to take someone else word as gospel. Everyone has to think for themselves.

I understand that the bible does not teach others to kill. Ok, well I understand that isn't the message. Other people do not. When I target christians I mean the fundamentalist ones. Bible belt mother fuckers. Reading that guys posts on the all spin zone, I can just see pandy jacking off to passages like this one:

You raped the soul from the child in me…….
Bow down to the land of the free
Bow down to your world that made me me
Bury the nails into the one like me
Consecrating the lies and exalting false prophecy
Tearing apart souls of man and all his goals
Offer benedictions and wills to plague your…
Souls….is made, in a so-called God
The taste of sulfur and rain
Your churchianity christ now turns on man
And brings him pain
Bow down to a lying clergy of sodomy
Bow down to the world that rejected me….
A gun to the temple of a world enslaved
by the lies that bind us to a faded hope
And a promise of salvation that is only a lie
Ensures the perversion that you try to hide
will become as dust that will fade in time
To take this world of hate
Of torture, our fate
Will rest in hands
That sow the seeds of rape

This is powerful stuff and a clear out-lash at his religion. This guy has clearly been fucked up by these other fucked up people. I think it is pretty clear that these people who are responsible for the upbringing of these kids are not doing their job, and are abusing them.

I hope the people he killed deserved it. For all we know they could have raped him and this is his revenge. Maybe he was molested by his priest? We don't know all the facts and we may never.

I think GP comment about religion was more about keeping it from becoming a flame war over religion. If we can discuss it maturely then we should seeing as it is obviously a huge part of this story, especially if you read some of the shooters posts.

Every single over-sheltered & religious household I have ever seen or known of has produced some really messed up kids.

@ Zerodash

I was messed up before that thank you very much.

@chopperlink

You mean doom not gta. GTA3 came out in 2001 and columbine took place in 1999 meaning the most recent gta out at the time was gta2, or maybe the london one, in either case gta wasn't very popular back then.

Also the coolumbine kids never blamed doom for their actions the media did that for them.

@Shaesyco
Well, it probably was DOOM. I don't remember much from the new about the attack.
Well, there was an attack in which the killers themselves blamed GTA.

What I am trying to say is don't blame anything else but the killer. HE is responsible for his own actions, even if he blames it on something else.
Yes, there may be some influence for his actions, but he is the deciding factor that can mean a difference between life or death. We should be mourning those who died instead of blaming the attack on something!!!

@Chopperlink

The decision to kill was his, yes, but the environment he was raised in could have influenced him in a way that made the decision to kill "easier". Of course, this doesn't take any kind of mental illness into consideration, but think about it. If you're forced to live in an extremely closed in environment that completely goes against the grain of what you believe, and nobody will listen to you when you voice you're opinion that it's wrong, that could make it easier for some people to decide to take a violent, negative action instead of a positive one.

Just more food for thought.

Really?

Okay you have a target 3259 feet northwest of the ridge you are on. Between you there is a constant wind of about 2 miles an hour. The elevation difference between you and the target is 200ft. The temperature is around 34 F.

The target is sitting in a car with tinted windows.

He has stepped out of the vehicle, his head is visible above the door, however his body is behind the window. Trying to hit his barely visible head would be a waste of a shot.

You have a 20 second window when the target will be visible enough that a shot can be placed center of mass through the window.

You have a m-82 rifle which fires a .50 BMG.

When the target stopped you had all the data except the distance, which took you minamal time to accquire.

Can you do all the necessary calculations to adjust your rifle scope and your usage of the scope to hit that target without missing? Do you even know how to control your breathing?

I highly doubt it unless your a current or retired military sniper.

Please refrain from claiming that using a gun takes no skill.

@Erik

It's a shame 90% of your posts directed at my comments amount to little more than childish blatant flames. Please, grow up.

@chopperlink

So the kid was responsible regardless huh?

Tell me if you take a puppy and pet and praise it on even numbered days and abuse it on odd what happens? You wind up with a confused and often vicious animal. Is this the animals fault? Nope the fault lies with the person that did the training. Yet if the animal were to attack someone it is the animal that is put down.

Children was almost was easy formed (adults as well, ie Stockholm syndrome amoungst others) and treating them in a way that is abusive to kind to abusive, causes the child to be confused. Regardless of the reasons for such training the fault still lies with the person that did the training. Humans cannot be put down as a dog would but can and often do suffer from things they could not control.

You say Matthew should have confronted his parents. Spoken like a person that never experienced abuse. Fear is a strong motivator and confronting the thing you fear is HARD. Plus even if he did then what? Think they would change? Would that undo the damage that had been done? And would not the most likely effect having him kicked out to on his own unprepared.

@Icehawk
You've got a good point as well. I guess I don't understand at all...

Wow, his parental upbringing was at least partially blame for his overabundant rage? Who would expect such a thing?

@Roebuc
Well that may be true, we don't know how much free thought this man had. Icehawk could be right, it might be the environment that caused this decision wholley. We don't know if the guy was too confused or did know some right from wrong. We don't know if we was really abused from his parents. Now that I ACTUALLY think about it, we don't know all that much about this whole thing. Except the that he was raised in a strict lifestyle.

Here is something else to think about. If his parents raised him in a strict religious lifestyle, wouldn't he be already taught that killing is wrong?

@Geno

George Bush is tearing the country apart. He doesn't understand that the US is a secular nation. He also fails to accept that Evangelicals are looked upon as morons by the rest of the world.

Appending to above.

An abused animal that attacks/bites someone needs to be put down for the good of (ie protection) of the community. Tis a sad thing none the less and the fault is NOT the animals but the trainers.

@Pandralisk

I like you sometimes, but in the greater scheme of things, you always start it. Deal with it.

@ BlackIce

"He doesn’t understand that the US is a secular nation."

I assume by "nation" you mean the American people.

I suppose the reason he doesn't understand this is because according to ABC news 95% of Americans believe in God.

Gallup found that 86% of Americans believe in God.

Of course that combines every different religion in the US. I have no love for GW but I do love facts. And it seems he may not be the one who'd deluded about the facts.

Sorry if anyone has brought this up, but has it been considered that the stuff this kid posted online might not actually have any bearing in reality? Maybe a lie or two in there to engender empathy?
I only say this because at least the first 50 posters seemed to be taking the information as valid, simply because it comes from the source of the shooting (if, in fact, these statements were written by the shooter). Am I alone in thinking that someone willing to shoot up a bunch of churchs MIGHT not be the most reliable narrator?

@ chopperlink

"But didn’t his parents teach him that killing someone is wrong?"

Not to sound like Pendralisk, but think about how many times 'devote' people have ignored "Thou shalt not murder".

And FYI, I was raised as a Catholic/Anglican (Father/mother, repectively), and I'm not an church person, just anti-stupidity.

*an anti-church person

@GryphonOsiris

"I’m not an church person, just anti-stupidity."

That has to be the single finest thing I have read on this thread (my own
posts included)

As for your question. I honestly doubt most of the "10" are followed that closely. "Thou should not covent (desire) thy neighbor's wife." Probably leads the list of disobeyed. We are human not saints.

P.S.

I'ts not "Thou Shalt not kill" the original Hebrew is translated "not Murder" The Jewish people had a seperate word for "Kill" & "Murder" the same as we do in English.

And yet again the extremists muck it up for the rest of us.

@black ice, sellin me dragunovs.

Well, i'll be more likely to do more business with you when you stop fucking up my orders and send me my dragunov.

haha.

I'm just messin with you man.

[...] So I was reading this GamePolitics.com article which cited this DenverPost.com article about the recent Colorado shootings by Matthew Murray.  As I read them, I kept wondering “Why is this on GamePolitics.com?” and “What does this have to do with gaming?”  It got me thinking about the media and folks like Jack “Ass” Thompson.  What is it that makes people rush to tie videogames to killers?  Not only that, if you read the source information, it would almost seem the “tie” here is that the guy was angry over NOT being able to play them.  Does that even count as tying videogames to the murders?  Oh, I forgot, merely mentioning them together is probably enough in itself. [...]

@BlackIce, Dragunov Marksman

You can count Saint Ignatius of Loyola in there too. He was a professional soldier for several years before becoming the founder of the Jesuit order.

This is the first article I've read on here that's left me at a loss for words. The only thing that comes to mind is that I hope his parents get called out on this. Truly sad.

I knew a girl when I was in Junior High where her parents were "overprotective". They went so far as to having her mother sitting in a car outside of the school we were at, watching her go between classes and out at the lunch tables. They wouldn't let her do anything -- listen to music, watch TV, or talk to anyone outside of school really. They kept her in basically a prison. That is, until she turned 16. When she turned 16, they decided to let go of the restrictions. And I mean, completely. They went from completely overbearing to completely ignorant of everything she did. Within a week, she was drinking (in their home or elsewhere), doing drugs, partying all the time, ended up getting pregnant (like 1 month after her parents let her "free"), and died in a car accident about a year and a half later.

For some reason, this kid's story reminds me strongly of her. The shooter's parents should be held responsible for his actions. They failed as parents, and because of their failure, people died. I'm not shifting the blame away from the shooter himself, I'm just stating that there is enough blame to go around to also include his parents in this. What they did wasn't parenting, if what was said about how restrictive they were to him was true. What they did was closer to being wardens in a prison.

@BlackIce, Dragunov Marksman

St Patrick was a great saint though.

I mean, he drove the snakes from Ireland!

So the consensus seems to be:

1) Yes Matthew was guilty of killing (murdering)
2) That his parents failed in their duty to him, and their little society (read Cult) had (at least) some of the blame therein.
3) That games are not in the least responsible. Though it is expected that it will be twisted to show they were.
4) That the whole issue is travesty and a shame.

Religious issues aside, the question begs. What can be done to prevent or at least discourage such things from happening in the future?

A Common theme repeated here time and again comes to mind. The parents are responsible. How can the parents be reached and shown that they (sorry I would think most already know) have a responsibility toward their children?

@ Bob

I think it's more the parents being paranoid than being religious.

wow....ya know....in my opinion this is an example of bad parenting. Too strict or being to lenient towards your kids will result in.....well you get the point. If American politicians and critics of the industry don't realize this then well...you get Prohibition Part II. And when you really think about how the cooler something is and the harder it is to get it (i.e. alchohol)....the more people who want it.

Looks to me like this kid was really into violent video games, which gave him the desire to act out what he was practicing in the games.

Maybe we shouldn\'t be selling these games to minors.

@william panderlust

You're the first one to come up with that idea, chief. Why don't you run off for a couple of hours and do some research and then come back and present to me a plan of action to get the ball rolling on this. I'm eagerly awaiting your response.


Oh also, this guy wasn't a minor.

I started to get concerned when he discribed the way his parents searched him. Remember when he said he was thrown around the room, sounds like great parents*sarcastic note*

Wow, still no one has said anything about the Omaha Mall Shooting.

"does NOT differentiate"

@Verbinator

Actually a lot of us have been saying that Matthew and Matthew alone made the choice to do what he did.

There are also factors that may, or may not, have driven him. I know very, very well how destructive depression can be. I know all too well what the level of lonliness he talked about felt. I grew up in a strict household, by Matthew's accoutn his wasn't just strict it was restrictive to the point of suffocation.

We don't know the whole story, and likely never will. However there's almost always a familial factor in situations like this. Whether that be too much control on the part of the parents or a total lack of care. Something else was going on in his head. All we can do, as people, at this point is try and figure out what that was.

Why do some kids break the rules? BECAUSE it's a rule. Like in Germany and European countries where drinking is ok at a younger age, they abuse it much less. I cannot understand how any parents, no matter what religion, could do such things and place such restrictions on a kid.

Even if he wasn't abused, he must have had alot more mental strain than the average kid. If he WAS abused, frankly I don't really blame him for snapping.

If he would have had a video game or other form of entertainment, maybe he could have let off some steam. But no, he had no outlet at all. Even really religious people have fun once in awhile (as far as I know).

It seems like a pair of religious zealots that tried to raise their kid in too extreme of a house, and he snapped. It could happen with any parents, but the really religious ones have "reasons" (because it's "demonic") to ban their kids from anything and everything.

While it is the parents' faults, and if they did abuse him they could get charged with that, I don't see how else they could legally get in trouble, even though they deserve a slap in the face from God.

@IceHawk

As said before by jkdjr25, communities, big time. And it's not just to work with the parents either, it's to work with the children directly as well. Everyone takes a hands off approach to everything now. We're all suppose to be politically correct and make sure to not offend anyone, so when we see a child with some form of a problem, we're suppose to keep our mouths shut, so as not to offend the parents.

When we see a young adult with apparent violent tendencies, a "walking time bomb" if you will (and this covers most of the people involved in mass shootings), we're suppose to stay quiet about it, because we don't want to offend them.

@jkjdr25 -- then you're being sensible. Unlike chadachada(123) who goes right back to being judgemental (using the "Z" word for people with strong relgious beliefs is like using the "N" word for someone of a certain skin color range).

What I'm saying to those who are taking Matthew's comments about his parents at face value may be confusing rationalized fiction with what may have happened.

Actually, messed up as that would be, if he really was suffering from paranoid shizophrenia or a few other related mental illnesses, he CAN'T be blamed for his actions. Even if he were mentally sound--which is unlikely if he honestly gained relief from cutting himself--what his parents did could have driven him to this point. Even if we assume there was no abuse, a highly restrictive parenting style so often leads to so sharp a rebellion that he could have been brought to this point without technically being insane.

However, far more likely is the possibility that he really did hear voices (which could otherwise have merely been a claim made to stand out or distance himself from his upbringing). There are different levels, of course, but to a person suffering from such voices to the extreme end, they can actually reach a point where they so completely buy into the voices that they almost follow the voices' commands involuntarily.

Chances are, this guy DID have some volition, having reached this decision with a logic bounded by his upbringing and twisted by his mental condition. But there is a real possibility that he believed there was no other choice, believed the voices and fell so thoroughly under their sway that he was left thinking of himself as almost a passenger in his own body, an observer as the voices acted.

From his writing, I would assume he did choose this path; but in addition to the responsibility he bears for this choice, in this individual case I'd hold his parents primarily responsible for raising him in such a manner that he reached this point. It sounds very much as if he felt compelled to reach escape their constraints and others' unacceptance, and saw this as the way to do so.

However, in any discussion of such an event, it behooves us to realize that the possibility does exist that he was not responsible for his actions at the time. With certain mental conditions, he could very well have been at such a point that, in a very real way, this was the only choice he could make. We likely won't ever know, but in extreme cases, patients suffering similar symptoms as he alluded to literally lose all control over their actions (or believe that they do, but the effect is the same) and act out the voices.

@panderlust

Seriously, that's what you get from the articles? A man who admits to being beaten, sexually and emotionally and psychologically abused, and banned from all entertainment media uses a name from one bad game that could easily be looked up online, quotes and sings from memory several songs in types of music from which he was banned, and you somehow conclude that he was obviously "really into violent games"?

Oh, and that even though there's no mention he ever played a game, let alone violent ones, they must of course have driven him to emulate their violence because it's impossible a mentally ill person abused throughout his childhood and severely restructed by his parents could act out in response to the very real violence enacted against and in front of him?

And don't say he might not have been abused--if he's honestly hearing voices, it doesn't even matter what really happened to him, but rather what he believes happened to him. Try talking to mental health experts who actually are.

People like you are the reason every other country laughs at our education system. Logical fallacies, unfounded leaps of illogic, and information based on eminently false soundbytes are a great way to convince them we suck more than they already know we do, thanks.

I know it's in the constitution and all, but seriously, stop and think for a second. If guns weren't so easy to access do you think there would be the same number of tragic shootings? If parents didn't leave guns lying around the house for kids to stumble upon, would there be so many fatal violence in the US?

I realise that taking away guns won't solve the situation. For some reason, there is something fundamentally wrong with American society and their view on violence. I am not aiming this as a loaded barb at the American people, but don't you stop and wonder why there is SO MUCH violent crimes in America compared to everywhere else in the world?

Other countries such as Switzerland, have MANDATORY gun laws. Young males are required to have a fully automatic weapon in their homes in case they are called for conscription. Japan has probably the most sane of all the gun laws, requiring full criminal and mental health checks before even a handgun is issued. And yet, their rate of gun deaths are so much lower than the US. Have a look at these stats from a 1994 gun death study:

The study used 1994 statistics supplied by the 36 richest countries. Of the 88,649 gun deaths reported by all the countries, the United States accounted for 45 percent, said Etienne Krug, a CDC researcher and co-author of the article.
Japan, where very few people own guns, averages 124 gun-related attacks a year, and less than 1 percent end in death. Police often raid the homes of those suspected of having weapons.
The study found that gun-related deaths were five to six times higher in the Americas than in Europe or Australia and New Zealand and 95 times higher than in Asia.
Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6166

It must be noted that the sample size was limited for this study, it looked at the number of deaths per 100,000 people.

I think the American people need to realise that whilst banning guns won't solve any problems, there is definitely something wrong with the way American society behaves as a whole, which leads to horrible events such as this headline. I will leave it up to the sociologists and academics to investigate the details and develop solutions, I am simply making an easily visible observation.

The saddest thing about this is the warning signs were there and no one did anything about it. Rather than suggest treatment the plan of action was to isolate him which just made things worse.

...and before I get sideswiped...

No, I'm not blaming religion at all. This is something that goes on with many organizations including the gov't. In many of the other random shootings the motives were tough to decipher beyond just being mentally unstable. This guy needed help. His parents should have given him help and if that help wasn't working it should have been stepped up until someone could get through.

Just my opinion/two cents. It's tragic no matter how you look at it.

I agree with JC on this. You can't "protect" someone forever from reality. Eventually, even the most sheltered person will one day have to face reality. The longer he was sheltered, the worse it's gonna be. In this case, it might have been so bad he went completely insane. Anyone in that case with access to weapons is VERY dangerous. Religion has nothing to do with it.
Parents, on the other hand, have a part of the blame to take. I'm not saying Matthew Murray is not to blame for that, he's the one that pulled the trigger. But as Jc said :
"There are many other factors that haven’t been clarified."

This case has nothing to do with Religion or videogames. It has everything to do with abusive parenting.

I think we're doing the best thing possible given what we know about Matthew and what we don't. We're asking questions. Nothing is ever learned if we're not willing to come together and reason through things like this.

Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason, sometimes there is. The important thing is to look at what happened and ask the hard questions. Things like why did this happen? Was there anything that could have been done to prevent it?

I honestly believe that there wasn't any one, sole contributing factor to Matthew's tragic decision. There were likely multiple factors, piling up until the weight of them all made him think that he only had one option left to him.

I'll take this as further evidence that everyone should be sterilized at birth (or whenever is easiest) and only have the procedure reversed when they prove they can be competent parents.

You have to take tests to drive and own firearms but anybody is allowed free rein to create children regardless of their suitability to parent.

I personaly think this would solve so many problems.

@constantneophyte

If we did that then nobody would be born by accident which means certain people would never had been born (like some of my relatives for instance)

@ those speaking against 'william'

OI! Leave him alone. Even if it is Jack, doesn't make him any less amusing.

@Pandralisk

It isn't often that I'm a supporter, but in this case. Yea. It most definitely was religion affected. One reason. THAT CHURCH. I've been in Colorado Springs most of my life, and I can safely tell you that the New Life church has been...controversial. I apologize to christians who may feel I'm jumping to unwarranted conclusions, but I'm actually not surprised someone shot up the New Life nearly so much as it just took them so long to do it. I can't speak to the Arvada shooting, but I will say that the moment I heard somebody had gone nuts at the new life, I knew it didn't have anything to do with video games.

Maybe there are other residents of this town who would disagree with me, but over the years new life has kind of evolved into a symbol of what is very wrong with christianity as a whole. (Think perhaps Ted Haggard was the nail in that coffin). The fact that he chose New Life for a target, implies to me one of two things (whatever his real reasons):
1. He had a problem with that particular brand of zealous christian.
2. He felt strongly about homosexual rights.

1. Is obvious. 2. Is possible simply because New Life has been something of a center of family-values style activism. Given the circumstances surrounding the case. 1 is more likely then 2.

I'm sorry on behalf of folks who may take exception with my conclusions, but I think it's reasonable to hypothesize on his motive based on target.

Sorry for double post, but I'd like to point out that many of us could be considered zealots in gaming, gaming politics, or some other thing.

If my heavy gaming somehow caused the death of 4 people, someone could correctly say that I'm a gaming zealot that's at fault. Like I said, sounds like a couple of religious zealots that ended up screwing up their kid, because of their extreme belief in their religion.

Sorry if I offended anyone using the "Z" word...

You know, maybe some of what Matthew had said WAS overdramatic, but that doesn't mean the whole thing has to be. Some of you who are arguing for the parents, you have to think; if you were cut off from video games or music while all of your friends are playing them, that may make you sad or angry. You may not feel the need to go totaly crazy, but if you do not believe the same thing your parents do, you should be able to voice that opinion. Its just like being a democrat while your parents are republicans or vice versa. Sounds to me the kid took out his anger at his parents out on a bunch of other people.

Oh and I forgot to add we constantly moan about not letting the government raise our kids for us. Do we really want the government to decide if we can have kids in the first place?

@Austin:

America is not the first country to break away from ia tyannical government, not by a long shot. Further, I am not advocating a ban on guns; that would likely make the problem worse. Because, as epitomized in this very story, outright censorship and banning of certain products/media just increases demand and exacerbates other problems.

America's history is not unlike Australia's, we were both colonies of the British, we both comitted mass genocide and slavery of the native peoples, and both countries became (mostly) independent. Australia is still part of the Commonwealth, but there is still constant pressure to break away.

And with a country that was originally populated by all the villains/criminals of Britain somehow the US has far more problems. Your point about immigration is well made, but that sounds to me like you're blaming immigrants for the crime rate in your country. Further, where do you think the majority of the world's weapons are made and bought from? You can think of the illegal weapons smuggling into the US as returning that which was originally yours. And even the illegal weapons importing doesn't excuse the fact that your violent crime rate is ridiculously high compared to almost everywhere else in the world, even the warring nations.

Lastly, excluding suicides is a rather ignorant thing to do also. America still ranks up there as one of the highest suicide rates in the Western world, and excluding them from data pertaining to fatal violence should also apply to other countries. If you do the same in Australia, you are left with a very tiny percentage of actual gun related homicides. Apply that to as many countries as you can and you still see that America's rate of gun homicides are far higher than any other nation.

I'm sorry if this sounds like an attack, but in light of this shooting and the many others that have happened over there through the recent years, perhaps a lot more attention needs to be devoted as to why Americans are so violent.

@Austin:

Well, using your words:

Suicide is not an act of violence wherein another inflicts harm to an adversary, it is an act of inflicting harm to yourself.

Take the suicides away from Japan's total gun death rate and you have practically nothing left. Can the same be said about America?

I was talking about how this particular tragedy is an indicator of a much larger problem in America, the fact that Americans seem to have a higehr inclination to perform violent crimes on other people. I'm not sure what your point is with that last post.

@Juggernautz

Considering the overall size of the U.S. as a whole it doesn't surprise me that we have a high violent crime rate. That being said I also think that its more than a little naive to blame the availability of guns for the crime rate. There are many more factors to consider, not the least of which is how the sanctity of life has been cheapened. Going into those however would be off topic and a subject best left discussed in another forum.

Suffice to say we're trying to lower such things, but no country is perfect.

@Bayushishan:

You're right it is a very, very complex issue but I think it's pretty relevant to this story as I doubt it was 'just the games' or 'just the parents' that caused this individual and the others to do what they did.

It's important to realise the faults and problems in society before they expand too far and the whole thing collapses.

That was what I wanted to say originally but I got carried away with my issues with American society :)

@ GP

Even though Pandralisk gets off subject sometimes, I think that it is going a bit to far to worry Pandralisk to the point of where he puts an X instead of the word religion.

I think you would want to give a better impression to gamers than Jack Thompson by giving freedom to put whatever that is not a threat.

If people want to talk about something else then let them. If someone wants to challenge Pandralisks views then they should if you do not want to be a censor.

@ Pandralisk

You do have good points about religion because I grew up seeing religion cause alot of problems when it comes to people with different religions showing hate and also phony people using their religion as an excuse to do bad things.

Clearly, this isn't an issue of video games and if any critics will say so, then they're just like all the bad lawyers out there.

Though what he did was completely wrong, he can't be wholly blamed. It's fine if the parents filtered his stuff but not to the point that he's getting a beating. Also, taking his freedom away on listening to rock music, watching DVD and playing games was way inhumane. Anyone would go insane if these things were restricted to anyone who likes this stuff. Unless of course the family is poor and can't afford these, it's a different story. But I don't think that applies to this case.

@halofantasy

There's a problem there. GP has every right to ask people not to go off topic and start flame wars. He has the right to ban people who decide to go that route. Posting here is a privelege, not a right.

I'll just say that I disgree entirely with your other points and leave it at that.

@ jkdjr25

You said that you totally disagree with all my points. Dude you must not have been around that many people or your just ignorant if you are going to say that you totally disagree with phony people using their religion as a back up tool for the bad things they do, and also people hating others for having a different religion.

I was only saying that I felt Pandralisk should be able to at least mention religion when it comes to these issues. I was not trying to tell GP what to do.

You do not really understand what the hell you are talking about because everything you said makes no sense. You need to think before you start putting me down.

@Juggernautz

There is one big difference that caused the british to treat us differently, the french weren't involved. During the american revolution the french were a major 'on again'-'off again' antagonist of the brits and, in fine spiteful tradition, anything that the french did had to be countered by the brits. The fact that the americans fought for independence rather than gained it though discourse is bound to have affected their post-war culture. I've often wondered what it would have been like if the americans had maintained a good relationship with england and australia had fought for independance. Must get around to inventing that time machine so I can see for sure...

I do agree that severly limiting guns would help lower the incidents of gun violence and hopefully stop things like this happening. I also understand and acknowledge that the majority of gun crime is committed by illegally obtained weapons but where were the weapons illegally obtained from in the first place? I have a feeling it involves stealing from legitimate dealers rather than gangs operating their own metal smelting and part casting facilities if for no other reason that we'd probably see far more individualism in the output. Less weapons available legally would have to lower the illegal availability since criminals don't automatically get a gun when they reach a certain level of badness (geez, what do you think life is a computer game??). Yes there would be consequences to legitimate businesses and the industry in general but as much as it sucks, change is a part of life. Think about unemployment, imagine if that was magically cured once and for all, all the people working at unemployment agencies would have to find new work (yes that is technically self defeating since eliminating unemployment would create a little more but this is an analogy). Same goes for undertakers if we invent an immortality serum, people could only die from accidents and thus a massive decrease in their workload... Still in that future the biggest crime rate would probably come from undertakers trying to drum up business. Banning research into immortality is the only way to prevent a massive undertaker driven wave of violent crime!

Or mac users claimng that their system is the best!

[...] (Sources: GamePolitics, The Denver Post, All Spin Zone) [...]

@anyone arguing with Pandralisk
pre-emptivley (spelling?) saying that you shouldn't be able to mention religion is ridiculous. pandralisk has every right to bring it up in any discussion here, this one doubly so. religion, like many other things in a society, has a tendency to put it's tendrils in things, even when it seems like it doesnt belong.
@Pandralisk
religion affects the industry, yes, but in a way different from what i think you are saying. yes, some politicians do use it as a banner to unite under and take out things(if only to advance their careers). but a society without religion isnt really one worth living(excluding the possible future where religion has weakened, or even left the scene). think of all the great games and books and movies that were inspired by religion. the first that comes to mind is the halo series. the very idea of a martyr (mc), though not inherently religious, is something that very obviously does come from religion. to say anything different is to disavow the impact (both good and bad) or religion on a society as a whole, most notably the foundation of the us on christian ideologies. i am a strong atheist, and hold a deep loathing for any religion, but even i can see the positive in religion.

@ Broken Scope
"Really?

Okay you have a target 3259 feet northwest of the ridge you are on. Between you there is a constant wind of about 2 miles an hour. The elevation difference between you and the target is 200ft. The temperature is around 34 F.

The target is sitting in a car with tinted windows.

He has stepped out of the vehicle, his head is visible above the door, however his body is behind the window. Trying to hit his barely visible head would be a waste of a shot.

You have a 20 second window when the target will be visible enough that a shot can be placed center of mass through the window.

You have a m-82 rifle which fires a .50 BMG.

When the target stopped you had all the data except the distance, which took you minamal time to accquire."

Try doing that same thing with a sword. Firearms do take away from the skill level. That is also what makes doing a feat such as the one you described possible, with a firearm, and not possible with other weapons. That is not to take away from the feat accomplished.
I can hit 10/10 at about half that distance with iron sights, haven't tried quite as far as you stated in your scenario. I know about controlling my breathing, I know proper positioning, and about correcting for wind and distance and slope.
You are comparing something that is IMPOSSIBLE with most other weapons, to something that takes great skill with firearms. firearms do require less skill to accomplish a kill than other weapons, given the same situation.
They don't take "NO" skill, but detrimentally less, and at close range, CLOSE to no skill.

More on-topic: It certainly sounds like abusive parenting is the issue here. Whether that is related to the Church the family attended is entirely unclear.

Suggestions of parental sterilisation are just silly - as someone else said, this is an extreme case. The majority of parents do just fine in raising their children.

I wonder how the survivors are coping ...

@ Austin Lewis

As a side note, and not to derail the conversation, but St. Patrick wasn't a GREAT saint... he drove the snakes from Ireland. Snakes eat vermin. Vermin carry fleas. Fleas spread the plague. Therefore, St. Patrick removed predators that stopped the plague. St. Patrick is indirectly responsable for the deaths of millions of Irish.

Just sayin... :) (yeah, I know, the snakes are a metaphor for evil)

@Austin Lewis

Weapons aren't smuggled into the US from Mexico (at least not in any significant number), rather the problem is the other way around. 90% of police shootings are from guns that come from the USA. lot of high powered pistols and assault rifles are purchased from border states and sold at up to 300% markup on Mexico's black market.

Jack Thompson will find a way to blame this on games. It's an absolute guarantee.

Gamer killer:

\"I’d still obtain things anyways, it was like getting drugs from a drug dealer, EVERYTHING had to be done in secret. lol ... I remember having to listen to everything in secret, at very low volume levels or with headphones, whether it was video games, TV, DVDs, or music/radio.\"

Take away the violent games, a number of people are still alive. GP proves the \"games cause death\" fact again. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!