Immigration Game Attacked... Publisher Fires Back
Immigration Game Attacked... Publisher Fires Back
February 29, 2008
In recent months, GamePolitics has been tracking the development of ICED, a serious game designed to publicize the issues faced by immigrants in the United States. The final version launched earlier this month.Published by human rights organization Breakthrough, ICED examines immigration issues from the perspective of the immigrant. This is, of course, a hot-button political issue these days, so it's not surprising that ICED has generated some controversy.
An article on Alex Jones' InfoWars trashes ICED, terming it "an illegal immigration training game:"
An Indian woman, Mallika Dutt, has released a video game that essentially trains illegal aliens how to sneak across the border and avoid border patrol agents and cops...
For the casual observer, Ms. Dutt comes off as your garden variety liberal “human rights” advocate with a useful penchant for technology. But it is a bit more sinister than that...
As the average Mexican or Latin American does not have access to a video game console, let alone a television, the game is more practically geared toward an effort to inculcate middle class Americans into the belief that illegal immigration is a human rights issue, never mind open borders and the influx of third world people is a globalist plot to turn the United States, soon to become part of a North American Union, into a feudal slave labor gulag based on the China model. It has absolutely nothing to do with human rights.
Asked by GamePolitics to comment on the harsh criticism, Breakthrough's Mallika Dutt pulled no punches in her response:
ICED - I Can End Deportation is a video game about the lack of due process in the immigration system as it applies to legal permanent residents, asylum seekers and people who are here on valid visas - it’s not about illegal immigrants - as anyone who’s actually bothered to play the game would quickly realize.
One of the characters, Marc, is a war veteran - and many vets, who have legal resident status, have been deported because of unfair immigration laws. Current detention and deportation laws hold people, even legal residents, in detention indefinitely with no access to a judge. Legal residents can be deported for minor crimes - without the opportunity to make a case before a judge.
It’s interesting that those who claim to be supporting the American way of life, are the very ones who are ripping apart due process and fairness in our legal systems...
GP: The immigration issue is surely a controversial one, and there are valid points to be made on both sides. But, frankly, the InfoWars piece smacks of prejudice and stereotyping.
Making it a point to identify Mallika Dutt as "an Indian woman" and asserting that "the average Mexican or Latin American does not have access to a video game console" pretty much show where the article is coming from.
And, note to InfoWars: ICED is not played on a console or a television. It's a PC game.
Comments
I found this section of the InfoWars article to be very telling of the Author.
"ZOMG ITS R TEH CONSPRASSY!"
February 29th, 2008 at 10:36 am
@yuki: what defines legal as opposed to illegal? a random arbetrary piece of paper that our government sees fit to NOT give to people. blah blah blah no one is illegal.
We are a nation of laws that needs to count and "find" people for taxes law and other things to have thousands of people sneaking in screwing over local systems left and right.
I am sorry nothing gives them the right to come here without due process, its true the current system is messed up but that dose not make them legal.
Why don't we dissolve rules and laws and let anarchy rain i am sure chaos is better than what we have now. *rolls eyes*
the system is broken and uninterested in a fix, the best plan of action I can think of that fits in with what America tries to be and laws and rules to bind it too you start with a green card system thats set to a 10 year time out as the immigration system is totally revamped, you get people to come out of the wood work pay their dues to the country they are living off of (fine for illicit entry on thous who have entered illicitly and back taxes) this way they can be made citizens if they so wish as long as they have stayed out of trouble when the immigration system is revamped, until then at least they are counted and taxed that is all that matters.
So you see, this game is ridiculous and has no basis in reality. It's probably a really funny joke to all the illegal immigrants who play it.
"Whatever happen to the American Dream? nah why do I ask?"
The American Dream is for Americans, not invaders. They make a mockery of every REAL immigrant who put forth the effort to do things right.
...I'M A MEXICAN. I HAVE A FUCKING NEW MAC LAPTOP AND DESKTOP. I HAVE AN HDTV. I HAVE A FUCKING GAMING CONSOLE.
...What the fuck is up with this guy?
Mexico has big cities. It has one of the biggest cities in the world (Mexico city)
All my friends are in the same economic situation as me.
...Fuck it, this man is a know-nothing maricon faggot.
Yes, but is too much fun to blame inmigrants for all that is wrong in USA, but the big corporations you give sh*it abot they breaking the law.
And they are keeping inmigrants to break the border illegaly.
Let me know when you reach China.
You make a mockery of all real immigrants who put forth the time and effort to do the right thing by supporting parasitic invaders. Furthermore you are still wearing your rose colored glasses.
The haters call it a "simulator";
The PC nazis call it discriminatory;
oh the lulz!
You didn't read her response then, I gather.
As the average Mexican or Latin American does not have access to a video game console, let alone a television...
So the implication in the language you used is that people are more likely to have access to a video game console then a television. Hey genius, how would they play it?
That's the thing about stupid people - they tend to believe stupid things.
1. Enforment first Advocates are NOT Anti Imimgration. We are ANTI ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!!!!!
2. Pro Imigrants need to Realize that until they stop backing ILLEGALS, they wont' get ANY form of respect in BORDER STATES! I know that better then anyone. Arizona, where I live, Enacted some of the more strict Employer Sanctions bills EVER. Why, cause the Pro Illegals gave the rest of the IMMIGRATION REFORM people a BAD nam.
Until people start understand these points, this debate is gonna get more and more lopsided till the borders look like prison fences. It's already happening in Arizona. WHile IM a big enforment first proponent, Im also one of the biggest critics of the current Immigration system.
Just my 2 cents.
It doesn't really, Just just pissed that these 2 groups fight so much that nothign ever gets accomplished. Didn't mean to derail things.
I took a look at the comments on the linked article. It seems that the readership is no better than author. A very bigotted crowd.
It really does boggle my mind that people can be that racist.
You can also obviously see that the author has not even seen any thing about the game beyond the premise.
Actually the work to become a citizen starts before you even cross the border. But you and Yuki are right. The problem is that people won't talk about this issue in a civilized manner, as is apparent from the bigotted article.
I was able to read one of them, the girl has a green card and is being sought by the FBI because they think she is a suicide bomber.
After reading that, I started wondering. What does that have to do with immigration? Its just Government paranoia.
http://www.mtv.com/news/photos/i/iced_080215/03.jpg
I dunno, maybe I'm off base here?
I see where you're coming from. I myself am baffled why people spend their time bitching about pointless crap like this supposed "training" game. The unfortunate thing is that people would much rather use tax dollars to highlight the problem with a bigger pen rather than using the funds to streamline the immigration process so that people wouldn't HAVE to cross illegally.
And on the other side of the spectrum are these people who consistently argue that the idea of border patrols and walls stems from a racist belief- it doesn't. The fact is, it's ILLEGAL, no matter how you look at it. If the problem were as severe with people coming in from Canada, the same ideas would be applied- but they aren't.
As a response to some of you, illegal immigration is not new. Been happening ever since the Mexican-American War, if not before.
@DeusPayne
There are some clear differences here. The main one being that the Latinos are bringing criminals with them, don't want to be citizens, aren't spending most of their money here, and come from countries (especially Mexico) prone to rioting at the drop of a hat. Then there is the small issue that they are not sticking to jobs that Americans won't do. You can find illegal electricians, plumbers, and construction workers just as easily as you can find crop pickers and factory workers. Plus, you seem to have forgotten that even though we are based on immigration, too many people in one place can become a big environmental problem. Does the system need reform? Yes. If it was, would it stop illegals from coming over anyway? No. Worse yet, they're stealing identities to get here now.
WHAT!?!??!?!?! So... the only way someone can come to this glorious nation is to do menial work that no one else wants? Well, I guess it's a good thing that there are nothing but white doctors, professors, and engineers.
"Plus, you seem to have forgotten that even though we are based on immigration, too many people in one place can become a big environmental problem."
Uh... why? Are the mexicans so dirty that they're smelling up the border states?
As for 'illegals' commiting crime and whatnot for all those related arguments. What about people born here that do the same thing? They're still allowed to stay. And someone breaking the law is by no means reason to deem others criminals as well.
And i'll just ignore your racist comment about Latinos.... before I end up punching something.
Charlie:
That's how most of the characters are based. Anna served time for smoking weed, but was arrested again on the way home for a school trip (abroad), and was held for 3 years. Suki has a student visa, but didn't know he needed a full course load to maintain the visa. Ayesha wrote an an anti-Patriot Act paper, and go busted as a suspected suicide bomber (she has a green card). Javier is an illegal immigrant (their visitor visas expired), but they're unable to apply for legal residency. Marc is an asylum seeker, has a green card, and was in the army.
Yeah, before you can come to the US to work, go to school, or to become a citizen, all the paper work starts outside the US. You have to apply for VISAs and a green card. You have to get special work permits and education permits (these are a part of the VISA. There are several types you can get).
If you are coming to the US to become a citizen, you apply as normal and specify tht you intend to nationalize. Then you have to live in the US for a certain number of years before actually getting your citizen status.
But if you come here on a work or education VISA, you cannot just apply for citizenship. You can do so while still here, but there is a different process to go through.
It is a lot of red tape, no matter which path you go through, but it is necessary.
Personally, I don't like the idea of illegal immigrants. If they really want to come t othis country and live, they should do so properly. There is also the fact that the majority of them send the money they recieve here, to their family back where they came from.
Their fear-mongering doesn't need any more attention than it's getting now.
I had some understanding of the process but obviously not as much as you.
@ Simon Roberts
I'm pretty sure that thats a law here in the U.S., a pretty stupid law if you ask me.
This just seems like one giant cluster fuck and nobodies doing anything about it. They just figure that if you argue enough the problem will be solved.
The name of the game is "ICED", an obvious play on the Immigration and Enforcement Customs, or "ICE". I've been reading the news stories related to ICE, and for the most part, they're targeting illegal immigrants that have criminal histories in both the United States and their former countries. Crimes involved include gang affiliation, numerous violent crimes, sexual molestation, and many other serious crimes.
The only illegal immigrants being deported without criminal histories are people who are found incidentally during the arrest of the criminals (usually living under the same household).
Sure, let's make fun of ICE, and end deportation...of violent criminals.
What? That's a crazed, paranoid conspiracy theory if I ever heard one. Only this time it's coming from a so-called "Patriot," not some so-called "Rebel."
Is it just me, or does the InfoWars site feel disturbingly racist, with a tad bit of LaRouche’s trademark paranoia?
That's Alex Jones for you. He makes his money marketing conspiracy theories to the tinfoil hat crowd.
ICE is in charge of deporting ALL immigrants, including the legal ones. That's why the game is named like that.
And even if they did only deport illegal immigrants that doesn't change the fact that some of ICE's practices are inhuman, immoral, unethical, probably even illegal, should someone challenge them in a neutral court. The game is targeting those practices, not ICE itself.
Read up on sedating deportees with psychotropic drugs against their will, for example. Supposedly ICE has stopped doing that, however, since they DID get blasted by a judge over it. But to think someone at ICE seriously instituted such policy at all is just incredible. You don't even treat animals that way.
Ouch, InfoWars just got handed the "False Advertising" card, unless of course they're at war with information.
"LOWERY/PENTAGON VET Says:
February 28th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
SORRY, BUT…GAMERS BECOME MORONIC SLAVES. They can’t think, eat, drink, sleep, or shit without ALWAYS/CONSTANTLY daydreaming and fanaticizing about CONTROL/POWER.
Why in the FUCK…do you think it’s called a JOY stick. GAMING DUMP-DOWNS OUR YOUTH !!!
FACT"
------------
Video games are dumping down our youth. We have got to act quickly.
blah my brains(or whats left of them) for a edit button!
Additionally, illegal border crossing is only 1 form of illegal immigration. People come over here on work visas, then when they run out, they stay. Bam, they're illegal. But they're still just as productive as the day before they were deemed 'illegal'. I'm not saying all immigrants should be allowed with not borders whatsoever, I'm just saying the the term illegal and legal immigrant is a fairly absurd distinction is many cases, and you can't just say "all illegals are criminals and don't deserve to be in the US"
Being illegal is breaking the law and doing damage to local economies but like some laws dose this mean it needs to be enforced to the full extent, we can merge them with the citizenry in a temporary way(10-15year span) as we fix the retarted immigration system as so we can fully merge them if thats what they want.
Hell we should just move to the fair tax disband the IRS and ignore the boarder, paying 25-40% retail tax(with state tax) that will keep most of them out and get rid of excess populace right there ^_~
Oooo mabye because they are born citizens who earned that right to mooch, and most crimanils lose a lot of their rights, and if you do not pay taxes you are either under the tax radar because you do not make enough or the IRS is looking for you.
Again you are mixing immigrant with illegal immigrant, its like the diffrence in illicit drugs and legal drugs.
On the Breakthrough homepage, it's claimed that the game represents laws that affect "all immigrants: legal permanent residents, asylum seekers, students and undocumented people." But doesn't this statement exclude one very important group of immigrants -- those who have become U.S. citizens? That seems like a conniving oversight to me, especially since the stated goal of the game is to be come a citizen.
This is the only thing that really bothers me about the game, and especially about the way it is being defended here. It holds citizenship up as the ultimate goal but seems to almost go out of its way to blur the line between "legal immigrants" and citizens of the United States. To me, that is a very important line.
Don't get me wrong -- judging by this comment board alone, the game has obviously been successful in raising issues of human rights abuses, and in informing Americans (like me) about the different sorts of legal challenges people who are not citizens face.
However, if the game or its publishers were to suggest in any way that a non-U.S. citizen deserves the same legal status and rights in a U.S. court that a U.S. citizen has, I could not disagree more.
@DeusPayne
From you comments so far, it sounds like your position is that there should be no discrimination between legal and illegal immigrants, nor even between citizens and non-citizens. I imagine there is more to it you have not yet revealed, but I find this view extremely naïve, at best, and maybe just a little bit unpatriotic.
The only way to get rid of the "illegal" distinction to which you object would be to make all immigration legal. I am not a racist, and I am not against immigration, but I do believe in the sovereignty of the United States, and I am proud to claim both my rights and my responsibilities as a U.S. citizen.
Yeah, because you get to chose where you're born, and who your parents are. Seriously... fuck you. It's this kind of rampant ignorance that politicians feed on.
And do we even need to talk about drugs. Oooh.... you have pot, you're a criminal. Oooh... you have an OPIATE.... oh, but you're wearing a white coat....
The point that you still have completely missed is that the term illegal is just an arbitrary word that the government decides to put in place. It used to be legal for lynch mobs to hang blacks, that doesn't mean the law that was in place is just. It also used to be illegal for blacks to use 'white' bathrooms. Does that mean that just because it's the law, you MUST DEFEND it? I know many immigrants both legal and illegal (coming from a family that fled the vietnam war). Many of my relatives ended up coming over illegally, but they never broke any other laws, and after a set amount of time of living in the country, you are allowed to apply for citizenship, regardless of your immigration was legal or not. But you're saying just because some crack head rapist was BORN in the US, he deserves to continue mooching off the government, while someone else who has done nothing illegal except not attain a piece of paper are imprisoned without legal representation, and deported to their home country, regardless if that means they're returning to a death sentence. Like I said, think before you speak.... you're coming off like a HUGE jerk who's sole basis of judging a person is where he happens to squeak out of their mother's vagina.
Now... if you're here illegally, and you end up breaking lots of laws, fine, send their asses back home. But just because they arrived through nefarious means doesn't make them a liability to the rest of the public.
oh ya its a arbitrary word like legal..law..tax..citizen...sovereignty ..state..country government, I am sorry if you dislike how reality works go to Mexico or other places and they wont let you be a citizen so easily if at all.
My point is its a rule that protects the country from collapse and over population,it has more to do with populace control and services balance than "ooo lets
keep them peoplz out".
"regardless of your immigration was legal or not. But you’re saying just because some crack head rapist was BORN in the US"
yes because he was born here and thus slotted to be taken care of if need be, the family of 5 that snunk in should go back that are not part of the system and should be denied its benefits.
You seem to fail to understand the reality of it we do not need a large populace in the population to be "hidden" and the main group we can deal with is the illegal immigrants, I am not interested in deporting them if they have stayed out of trouble all I want is 3 things for them to be counted and taxed and the retarted immigration system fixed, that way that family of 5 wont be harmed by the system other than being forced to pay their fair share of the burden of being a citizen.
The only way to that is to put in place a temp system(10-15 years the way government works), expanding the green card system to do this while the immigration system is over hauled is not a bad idea.
Now the 2nd main group of "hidden" people are the rich and criminals, those that dodge the tax system, a fair tax would deal with this forcing everyone who buys goods to pay a tax.
LETS SAY IT TOGETHER
I NEVER said all immigrants should be legal. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I REPEATED THIS!?!?!?!?!!
The point is that just because someone is labeled 'illegal' doesn't instantly turn them into a criminal mastermind who's screwing everyone else. There are ILLEGALS who are productive, and there are ILLEGALS who aren't. Yes, deportation does need to happen. Yes, illegals need to be kept in check. But just because they happened to be born on some other soil is NO REASON TO TREAT THEM LIKE CATTLE!
WTF?!?!
its comments like that that make me want to side with the deport them and forget them crowed, government,state and location/job benefits IS NOT A HUMAN RIGHT.......................
by sneaking in and letting employers abuse them, they become hypocrities, you are wanting a free ride to a job and government benefits and complain they abuse you yet are unwilling to pay taxes or be a part of the system, you can not have it both ways.....
""
I NEVER said all immigrants should be legal. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I REPEATED THIS!?!?!?!?!!""
No enough apparently.
Draining the US via illegal means sucks, yes, and needs to be stopped. But that's no reason to throw out the bill or rights in the process. Legal representation, due process, and NOT BEING DRUGGED AGAINST YOUR WILL... I think everyone can agree that those ARE basic human rights.
"As the average Mexican or Latin American does not have access to a video game console, let alone a television…"
So the implication in the language you used is that people are more likely to have access to a video game console then a television. Hey genius, how would they play it?
That’s the thing about stupid people - they tend to believe stupid things
I was about to comment on this. Completely off topic, but I am soooooooo sick of seeing people who don't know how the phrase "let alone" is supposed to be used abuse it the way they do.
People are considered "illegal" immigrants because they have broken the law and entered the country illegally. It is a crime to enter the country in such a way. So when you say that "just because someone is labeled as 'illegal' doesn't make them criminals," you are essentially saying that "Not all people who commit crimes are criminals." That is a self-contradicting statement that does not make any sense to me.
I'm guessing maybe what you mean to say is that people who break the law by entering our country illegally do not necessarily break additional laws once they are here. That's true, but it is beside the point. The point is that people who enter the U.S. without following the due processes of paperwork and registration required by law are called "illegal immigrants" because they have immigrated here illegally. They have broken the law. They are criminals already, regardless of any other crimes they may or may not commit once they are here.
As I tried to say above, a non-U.S. citizen absolutely does not deserve the same legal status or rights as a U.S. citizen in a U.S. court. Furthermore, because these "rights" are a matter of U.S. law to some extent, an illegal immigrant does not deserve the same rights or legal status as a legal foreign national resident.
"Furthermore, because these “rights” are a matter of U.S. law to some extent, an illegal immigrant does not deserve the same rights or legal status as a legal foreign national resident."
I'm sorry, but that is something that I just can't deal with. You believe that American's are so superior to the rest of the world, that we deserve basic human and civil liberties, and the rest of the world doesn't?
/sarcasm....
Human rights are just that, HUMAN rights. They're not American born citizen, or legally obtained green card rights. HUMAN rights. Have I mentioned human rights?
thats the price they pay for coming here illegally and refusing to leave when the government finds them one can be a adult and treat the situation maturely or be a child a run and fuss and cry.
Illegals should have human rights yes, civil rights not so much, they are not part of the system and should not be entitled to ALL of its benefit's legal or otherwise.
I do not like them not begin part of the system.
I do not like them being deported.
I do not like employers taking advantage of the situation.
I do not like government inaction and endless politics.
we can absorb them and build a system that is not slow and cumbersome on letting people in, the root cause of this issue is a poor and broken immigration system and not the immigrants LEGAL OR OTHERWISE that find themselfs in the middle of it.
We can simply stop all deportation operations and move to tracking operations, make way for the overhaul and find these people and give them a choice either you leave or you get a green card that will be vagauly checked but frankly I am more worried for stability over current details , get them cards so that they are tracked and counted for this with overhauling the immigration system will be about the only way to move things forward, but I doubt it will happen both sides of the argument want to much.
Human rights are humane, thus humanely deporting persons who are not int eh system is both humane and legal.
""“Furthermore, because these “rights” are a matter of U.S. law to some extent, an illegal immigrant does not deserve the same rights or legal status as a legal foreign national resident.”
I’m sorry, but that is something that I just can’t deal with. You believe that American’s are so superior to the rest of the world, that we deserve basic human and civil liberties, and the rest of the world doesn’t? """
The point he is making is that they do not have full rights of a citizen,they have basic human rights to be treated fairly as they are processed by the law, you want to bring in a strawman over the old racial laws of the 50s thats all well and fine however the diffrance is they are/were citizens illegals are not....
you can not remove borders and claim the higher ground because people are hurt or separated by the government when they came here willingly and illicitly in the first place it is not oppression or a crime when the government fines you to be in contempt of its laws and comes to get you.
I am sorry there is no pass go on the illegal part.
I will agree deporting dose not work and is a messy process its overused due to the crappy immigration system we have.
Yeah, I agree with a lot of what your saying even. I just feel that violating human rights is just FAR too much. Yeah certain civil liberties we take for granted they might not deserve. Legal representation isn't something that's free, yeah holding them in a cell is probably necessary in many cases. It just bugs the crap out of me that people are being treated like animals ANYwhere, let alone on US soil. Our country is founded on freedom, and human rights, and immigration. All 3 of those things are thrown out the window in most cases of 'illegal immigration' when the only law broken was immigration laws. The concept that anyone is less human or less deserving of being treated like a human, is something that I just can't take sitting down.
Once again, I appolgize for any flipping out I've been doing in this thread. This topic hits very close to home for me as I have relatives that had to flee from the vietnam war. Yeah most were able to get refugee status, and work visas, and my mom even got a student visa originally. But I do have relatives that arrived illegally, and over the course of the past 30 years have PROVEN that they can be productive members of society without breaking laws. The fact that one relative of mine is considered by the government a productive member of society, and another relative, who is essentially the same person, in the same situation, just without that piece of paper can be considered a wanted criminal, who doesn't deserve basic human rights.
And honestly, can anyone say that they wouldn't try to come to the US, even if they had to do it illegally, in a country that was so backwards that they had you shot for going to college?
I feel this strongly about any human rights violations (don't even get me started about guantanamo bay.... holy fuck that's a messed up situation) It's just unfortunate that i decided to chose such a grey area topic, that has so many facets that my argument was generally lost in the void of immigration laws. My problems aren't with the laws, just the way the criminals are brought to 'justice'.
"however the diffrance is they are/were citizens illegals are not"
What about when they were considered 3/5ths of a citizen, does that mean they only deserve 3/5ths of the benefits that america has to offer? :p
Okay, i'm kidding. Not a real point, I just couldn't pass up bringing up the 3/5ths rules. Such a hilariously misguided part of our nation's past.
For instance! The U.S. Bill of Rights is a very old document, highly influential on our justice system and central to the identity of our country. The BoR is not just a guarantee of rights for U.S. citizens, however! It's specifically a set of instructions informing the U.S. government as to what it can and cannot do. The United States government cannot, constitutionally, deny a person the right to a speedy trial with a jury of peers.
So just what is happening when ICE detains people for extended periods of time and denies them trial before deporting them? Well, that there would be a violation of both the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of which it is a part. As an admirer of both documents, I find that scary, and as someone who considers the responsibilities of citizenship important, I'd say 'holy shit it's time to get off the internets and see what I can do about this.'
I'm absolutely fine with Mexico wanting to dump it's poor people in America...so long as they write us nice fat checks to cover the welfare of each individual here illegally. Yes, illegal is just a word, but so is money, welfare, and population density. Just remember that you can only take on so many people before the boat begins to sink.
Now, I know that most people try to remain ambiguous when they debate illegal immigration, but we all know that the pertinent issue at hand is illegal immigration "from Mexico". Instead of migrating over here, to a foreign and strange land, why are none of these illegal immigrants interested in solving the actual problem? Actual problem you say? The reason why they that immigration is necessary. Stuff like corrupt politicos in Mexico who pocket hundreds of millions of dollars. The lack of a structured welfare, and the stable economy to help people escape from poverty. Make no mistake, Mexico is NOT a third-world country. It's a first-world country that's performing like a third-world country. Corrupt police are backed by even more corrupt court systems. In fact, immigrants from South America are shaken down as they venture northward until either they are out of money or are dead.
I fully agree that everyone in the world is born with certain rights. However , there exist governments and nations that can choose to restrict or relax those rights. The United States has no power to enforce nor grant rights to the people of Mexico. In fact, it's partially Mexico's responsibility to keep their own people in their country (doing a bang up job at it too). In addition, children born here due to natural birthright (anchor babies) are also up for debate.
I am not in favor of discrimination among American citizens. I am in favor of discrimination between citizens, and legal foreign nationals, and illegal immigrants. Not as human beings, but simply as residents of our sovereign nation.
I do believe that we should strive to protect basic human rights around the world. I believe that overall, the U.S. does a better job than most at affording those basic rights to all people, regardless of their citizenship or status.
I also believe the government has a responsibility to comply with and enforce the agreements it makes, including agreements with visitors to our country. I believe that foreign nationals should not be allowed to vote in U.S. elections. I believe that illegal immigrants should not have the same legal right to government assistance programs that registered, tax-paying citizens have.
No need to apologize again, but I'm not sure why is that is so difficult to deal with.
Honestly, I see absolutely nothing wrong with what you just said. I can't agree more. I just get more riled up I think when I hear about human rights violations. Illegal immigrants DO need to be dealt with, and draining US resources because you don't like your own country is always terrible. Really the only thing I've been trying to say (EXTREMELY poorly i realize) is that citizenship does not determine human rights. When I hear of anyone's human right being violated, I just flip out I guess. And that makes my arguments extremely incoherent sometimes. :p
While I will agree it's not right to punish good people, I also feel that just because their intentions are good, they shouldn't be let off the hook with a slap of the wrists. These illegals are still sapping America, taking US money to help themselves and not paying the government anything back in return (i.e., taxes). These illegals, who may or may not have gone through the same trials as a legal immigrant, are breaking the law and bankrupting America while taking jobs from legal citizens by working for much less.
I know that it's a sad issue - these illegals may not be criminals by heart, but if they're going to live in this country, they need to make sure they abide by US laws just as they would if they were living in any other nation. By failing to renew their green cards, sneaking into the nation (an activity akin to spies, criminals, and terrorists, may I add), and failing to pay the proper tax money to the US government, they are breaking the law. They may not be criminals by heart, but they are criminals by law.
I consider myself a staunch civil libertarian, and I like to argue a lot too. I am glad to know we agree much more than we disagree. Cheers!
I was never good at finding the key point in an argument, though...
Maybe it should be changed to...
WOW what a hot button issue.
I wonder how many people actually have left the United States or their home country and actually traveled to these 3rd world or impoverished areas?
But I digress.
The funny thing about immigration is that it is wanted when their an economic boom and it is hated when there is an economic depression.
Hmmm does that mean America is in a depression right now?
I remember reading about Americans going over to Asia during the gold rush, and for the railroads, telling Asians that they have jobs for them. Then once again during the industrial revolution. After all it was the Chinese that built the railroads not the Americans.
Hmm I wonder if the problem with immigration is also connected to the problem of Companies no longer having factories in America. After all our toys, clothing, tools, are produced in China, Malaysia, Taiwan, Haiti. and other places where we can pay for cheap labor.
Hmm another thing I have been wondering about. Those pesky H1B visa, you know the ones that people from India have no problem getting. I wonder if this can also tie into the immigration problem as well.
Of course then this Discourse is about being illegal. Hmmm I wonder what would happen if the shoe is on the other foot. Passport anyone? Have you lost it? No the America Embassy cant help you? hmm. Going to Mexico for a vacation Oh no you have been arrested. Want America to help you. Why? Well your treated like Crap in a foreign country. Why? your not Citizen of our country so why should be treated as human?
Hmmm maybe should make a connection with another problem with the Justice System. Ever since the inclusion of DNA evidence, how many people were set free? But before that how many people actually believe they committed the crime? So should we treat all people once they are guilty as criminals? Just Kill anyone that is guilty. Tie them um restrain them? Use them to test new drugs? Torture them just because you were found guilty by your peers. And then say sorry when evidence shows them to be innocent. Yes lets do that. Hey Lets do that again, Wasnt it fun when we did it to the Duke lacrosse Players. As Nancy Grace would say, Their Guilty Guilty Guilty. Ahh isnt being the 3rd party, we can pass judgments and not hold any responsibility.
Maybe I m reaching. but eh.
Whatever happen to the American Dream? nah why do I ask?
nah no one really cares until it happens to them.
How about sending a bill to Mexico for when crap like this happens?
They are encouraging their own people to migrate here, right?
faceplam.
What a joker. I wonder if they send out a free tinfoil hat with every copy of 'Crazy Conservatives Weekly'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9wMUypR_mY
Yes our soldiers are doing a good job of representing America
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/02/japan-says-repeated-crimes-by-us.php
or how about this
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/07/africa/web.0707iraq.php
And well whats their excuse? Are they poor? Didnt They volunteer themself?
And this is a discriminatory statement . . . HOW?
Do you honestly think that most Mexicans have accsess to a video game console? I don't and I think the same is true for those living in Central America.
And even if it weren't true it's not opinion, it's something that can be proven wrong or right.
Don't blame immigrants for taking over our jobs. Blame the employers who'd rather pay cheap under the table labor instead of paying someone a decent wage. Because alot of the jobs are paid under the table, alot of that money doesn't get taxed, which means less money for our government, ect....I blame the citizens here who just want to save money through illegal means.
Take, for example, Drink Driving. In the UK we have nearly 3000 deaths caused by DUI, of those 3000, maybe 200 are reported, of those 200, probably at least 50% of those will be about non-white offenders, it leaves the question hanging, 'Is this statistics or presentation?'.
Illegal Immigration is a real problem for both our countries, not so much because all illegal immigrants are here for dubious reasons, but because people will assume that they are. It causes problems for the natives and the legal immigrants, who are often forced to bear the brunt of the anger and fear of the illegal immigrants.
The problem is, it's got into a cycle, in an attempt to stop immigration, it was made much more difficult, this caused frustration and disappointment to those who had genuine reasons to want to start a new life, which creates desperation. That desperation leads to more attempts at illegal entry, which heightens paranoia and so the cycle repeats.
Instead, I'll take the safe route and say that the article sucks and the guy who wrote it needs to get his head checked. A few times. Just to be safe.
You know, every time someone uses a phrase like that, the rest of what they say tends to be idiotic. I must make a note to never use it myself for fear of being stupid.
No. Mexico´s goverment don´t encourages people to risk their lives crossing the border. But culturally, people thinks USA is a better place to make money because ther own communities are broken and goverment doesn´t help them. Yeah, it is an irony.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/2/26/164611.shtml
(Mexico Encourages Illegal Immigration)
http://www.vdare.com/bevens/Guia%20Del%20Migrante%20Mexicano.pdf
(Guia Del Migrante Mexicano)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143433,00.html
(Mexico Provides Guide to Illegal Immigration)
-I know it's FOX NEWS, but it lends credibility to the guide posted above.
http://www.letxa.com/guiamigrante.php
(THE GUIDE FOR THE MEXICAN IMMIGRANT)
-This is for those who want to view the handout simply as a "survival" guide.
http://graphic.pepperdine.edu/perspectives/2005/2005-01-13-border.htm
(Guide promotes illegal immigration)
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/001551.html
(Vicente Fox's Remittance Numbers)
-Mexico is doing so much to help the economy, eh?
The discovery of this guide is similar to a pedophile being asked why they showed up at the house by Chris Hanson. Of course they're going to say "nothing".
1. Have you even played the game?
2. Are you being sarcastic?
Like it or not Buddy, your coming off as a person of high ideals, and no experiance.
Lemme break it down for you.
I FUCKING LIVE IN ARIZONA!
I see every god damn day what illegal immigration has done to this state both socially, economicly, and in terms of crime.
Yes, the current immigration system is broken, and YES it does need to be fucking fixed. I'm 100 percent in agreement, but UNTIL THE BORDERS ARE SECURE, nothing else should be given any CONSIDERATION.
DO YOU FUCKING GET THAT?
Right now, arizona has 2 excellent Border patrol guards rotting in JAIL cause imbeciles like you want to fight for the supposed rights of a drug Dealer who broke the law by crossing illegally just so that they can use those illegals for political fucking gain. THATS BULLSHIT!
If you can't understand that, screw you, shut your mouth, and don't open it till you can justify putting the rights of a drug dealer against BORDER SECURITY!.
I won't hold my breath on that one you IDIOT!
Is the system broken? Yes. Can it be fixed? Dunno. Should the system be destroyed? No.
But.... are you saying that just because we have a border issue that we're allowed to strip people of basic human rights? Yes, we have an immigration problem, yes we have border problem, yes we have a problem with illegals committing other crimes, but that in no way gives us license to treat them like animals. I don't care if they're legal, illegal, minor drug offender, or racist violent murderer, they all deserve BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS, and do not deserve to be jailed without due process or drugged against their will.
What I said to make you explode like that, I have no clue. But calm the fuk down... jeez
Care to explain that too? I have no idea what you're trying to say, or why Border Patrol would be in jail.
Sure - I agree the stupid laws need changed.
But on the other side of the coin....
Right now - these "poor, innocent immigrants" and being screwed by corporations, investors, and other who are MORE THAN HAPPY to exploit the cheap labor - without providing minimum wage, health care, not even workmen's comp if they get injured on the job.
You think our LOVING government is letting this go just out of the kindness of their hearts??? ROFLMFAO. COME ON!!!
But that's ok, huh?
So you people who say illegal immigration is ok - are you making some $$$ from it? The only person I know that's in favor of just leaving the system like it is - IS making tons of money for just these reasons - exploiting them.
What of all the people who have immigrated LEGALLY? I guess it's just 'tough luck' they spent some much time, energy, money, and resources going about it legally, while others just immigrate freely.
It's AMAZING how blind the press gets people. Gets them thinking the government's letting this go just to be 'fair'. FAR FROM IT. But it sure makes the rich happy :)))
The "Guía del Migrante Mexicano" (The Guide for Mexican Inmigrant) says in its first paragraph:
"This consular protection guide doesn´t encourage mexicans to cross the border without legal documents required by U.S. goverment. Its objective is to give information about the risks, and to inform to migrants about their rights, even if they are legal or not."
Even in this link you gave me:
http://www.letxa.com/guiamigrante.php
... explains too well about the real mission of this document.
"A Border Patrol spokesman said he does not think the book encourages illegal crossers. "If they've already gone ahead and made that decision to cross illegally . . . then anything that helps protect lives is worth it," said Andy Adame, spokesman for the Border Patrol's Tucson sector."
This another:
http://graphic.pepperdine.edu/perspectives/2005/2005-01-13-border.htm
I don´t think that "survival guide" is even official.
Vicente Fox was an useless president for Mexico.
But there is people in our goverment at least thinking in the security of the inmigrants. They don´t want the people cross the border illegaly, and they don´t want either they die in the desert.
Why don't we just hand out guns to everyone that's already decided that they want to rob people for a living. Or maybe we can provide the means to get in contact with 4 year olds with negligent parents to all the people who decided to be pedophiles.
Aka Gay Laws, Slave Laws, Copyright Laws (MAFIAA).
Honestly I see people throwing illegal this and illegal this, I just wanna say shut the fuck up.
Yeah the Law is the Law. Just wait till they make playing video game illegal, oh wait arnt they trying to do that already?
They could make a Law that people can only eat with their left hand? go ahead break the law.
Hell I believe its illegal to drive a car in reverse in Arizona. I guess all the people that have cars are well illegal.
2.1 billion: To lock up illegals in prison
2.5 billion:medicaid
2.2 billion:unisured med costs
1.4 billion:fed aid to schools
1.9 billion:food stamps, WIC and free lunches
All goes to care 4 illegals and their kids. 10 billion dollars! and we're paying for the bill. This has to stop!
If there's reasonable expectation of undue physical harm or death, it's a violation. If the individual cannot understand what's happening, it's a violation. If psychological factors are too damaging, it's a violation. If they cannot communicate, it's a violation.
Applying this to deportation:
You can't let them die. You can't hurt them (not saying if they start fighting you have to accept their perpetrations). You CAN restrain them by physical means (appropriate handcuffs at the most), IF NECESSARY. You have to communicate with them effectively. They must be made aware of any and all available options. They have to know and understand all consequences and results.
This doesn't mean they can vote. This doesn't mean they can avoid the system.
As for the game, it has merit. The InfoWars guy isn't prejudice, he's downright discriminatory. Video games CAN be used to teach, but no more than books, videos, or any other form of media. Passing information about the issues we face is part of that. Fearmongering is so much fun.
-Mike
Spot on. Spot on.
Yes, someone who is an "illegal" immigrant is a criminal. Why? Because being here illegally makes them criminals. It is illegal therefore you are committing a crime, and if you commit a crime, what are you? Exactly.
Now that that is out of the way, I have no problem with legal immigration. None whatsoever. As for your comment on our country being based on immigration. Yes, it was. It doesn't mean it always will be. Remember that America is not an old country. It is fairly young compared to the old sods out there, and immigration was great to start the country, but at some point we draw a line on our country being based on immigration and allowing people to continue to immigrate here in droves. It has slowed exponentially. Things change. Deal with it.