"If there was a peaceful schools committee at the Bullworth Academy, maybe Jimmy would have joined the committee."
Oh yes, talking through your problems will be a best-seller.

Here is an idea: Start working on preventing real life bullying and wait with the virtual crusade until later.

@Ian Cooper

Because the game does not in fact glorify bullying, but fighting back against abusive behavior. THAT is what they want sept under the rug.

That and keeping up appearances. If teacher's unions come out saying 'this game is bad because it encourages bullying! stores shouldn't sell it!' then they keep up the image of being against bullying without risking anything.

@lumi

See, now you're actually discussing it with me rather than insulting me, I appreciate that ;)

I do agree that it must beat the top of the list of stimuli that trigger such things. However, I believe that the approach of many people in regards to children and childhood in general is fundamentally flawed.

Childhood is not a magical fairy land where everything is sweet and innocent, nor is it meant to be. People constantly trying to protect their children from things are doing them no favors in life at all.

Bullying, like falling over when you spin around in circles, or breaking your arm when you fall out of a tree that you were told not to climb but did anyway, is simply part of learning about life.

Now, I'm not going to deny that if someone is getting seriously hurt, especially physically, something needs doing.. and yes, I know there is a grey area. However, society in general and especially schools are slipping FAR to far into "we must protect children from everything bad in life for as long as possible!"... especially if you consider that, at least in certain areas and societies, we are forcing young adults to be children far to long as it is.

[...] [Via GamePolitics] [...]

People just don't get it. Then again the teacher coalitions view on this shows one thing, they can't do a damned thing about real world bullying.

Jeese didn't they learn anything from when the PS2 version was released?

We have a copy of this game. I watched my husband play it. Contrary to what these talking heads are saying, it's not that extreme. Yes there is violence. However, it's not against the weak, it's against those who are doing the bullying. As the protagonist, you have to act within certain parameters or risk everything. You have curfews, responsibility to get to class; these classes unlock special skills. You run errands for the cafeteria lady. It's not all gratuitous violence. It has a decent story. And of course, what these moronic people forget to mention is that when your character first arrives, you're tormented so you're rebelling against an unfair system.

"Yes, they can sell it and make a buck out of this, but is this the kind of marketing that they want to be [doing], selling games that glorify violence?"


Uh, yes?

"We’re asking retailers to be responsible. Yes, they can sell it and make a buck out of this, but is this the kind of marketing that they want to be [doing], selling games that glorify violence?"

The biggest delusion of all is the assumption that business ethics are the same as human ethics. The goal of business is to make money. As long as it is legal to sell, it is ethical. The responsibility of the buyer is to apply their own ethics to their purchases.

While it is reasonable to ask parents not to buy the game if they find the content objectionable, it is unreasonable to require companies to do that for you. The biggest reason is that they will have to charge you more if they add this overhead to their marketing costs, just like the ESRB costs get added to the cost of a game.

E. Zachary Knight
More like a lack of precise info.. god knows my mouth is riddled with "info gaps" :P

Just so you guys know I am actually in the process of interviewing Michael Hoechsmann and I will have a post out soon, I am going to try to get it submitted online to sites like this.

Here we go again.

I bought this game as well and what bianca says is true
this game is the exact opposite of what all the big political idiots are saying it is. its not glorifying bullying in school it is actually about a person who is trying to stop the bullying by showing the real bullies how it feels to be bullied for once. i salute rockstar for this despite games like GTA.

Thanks Ichi.

Personally, I wasn't shocked by Prof. Hoechsmann's rants against Army of Two and the game industry's lack of originality, even though I didn't totally agree. And I was sad to see how much he was bashed. To me, it was unfair and misguided. We should accept game critics, even though we disagree with them as long as they come from honest people.

@Overcast

Nonsense! Everyone know bullying comes from games. You can also download guns from the internet and use them to shoot people.

Lol, just kidding. The gun thing is directed at JTs pathetic attempts to blame CS for shootings. "I just downloaded this Glock from the internet, let's go shoot up a school or two, because CS taught me how!"

You know what single thing contributes most to "encouraging kids to target other kids, to be a bully with other kids"? Teachers!

Yes, that's right - the dirty secret of the education system is that bullying is engendered, not by video games, but by teachers not paying enough attention to the social situation the kids are in while they're in school. The game Bully does a lot to point out a problem that has existed in school literally for centuries, and it's a problem that will not get solved by teachers banding together to sweep the issue under the rug.

It's about time that the blame for the poor environment that promotes bullying was placed where it really belongs - on the teachers who let bullying happen on their watch.

[...] The composition begins with “a warning to parents to investigate what their kids are playing…” before recounting much of the knowledge from today’s Globe and Mail coverage, which we’ve already cited in the preceding GP story. [...]

QUICK HERD OVER IN THIS DIRECTION!!! now the rockstar has the mindless herd following it around, would they be so kind as to lead them off a cliff?

@ Thomas

If you're going to deny that bullying isn't the #1 source of school shootings, which alone is justification for doing everything we can to properly mitigate it in our schools, then I don't think you have a place having an intelligent discussion on the matter.

Where were those experts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Coon
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/11/cleveland.shooting/index.html

"Other students said Coon was a "Goth" who usually wore black clothes and a trench coat and strapped an empty gun belt to his leg. He was an atheist and a devoted follower of Goth rocker Marilyn Manson.

A schoolmate said Coon had been beaten up Monday after saying "F--- God" during an argument."

"Eventually he was released to home detention and enrolled in SuccessTech, a small magnet school for gifted and troubled students where Coon frequently clashed with teachers and other students.

"I ain't justifying nothing," a friend told CNN affiliate WOIO. "I ain't saying he did the right thing, but I am saying he got pushed for a long time and asked them people to help, help, help, help, but nobody helped.""

Where were those experts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.O._Green_School_shooting

"It was reported that King was shot because he was openly gay and sometimes dressed in a "feminine" manner. "

Where were those experts?

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/2006/11/school_board_me.html

"During the public meeting, William Scherfel, a former township supervisor who was elected to the school board on a promise not to build any new schools, made repeated references to the gay/straight alliance as a “sex club,” employing a bit of common right-wing spin. After a couple of school board members pointed out that his characterization of the club was inaccurate, Scherfel replied, “Ok, the faggots.”"

And many more.

But, no, according to those experts, it's the fault of a video game with a fictional storyline.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

@ Ian Cooper
I solidly agree. The teachers are in no position to complain about the game if they can't even control bullying themselves.

@Mark of Cain

More like won't do anything.

@Condemned 2 Maniac

For all we know, JT was a school bully.


And when did photographing students naked become possible? I played the game form beginning to end. I don't remember this.

Must be like how some imagined that there would be hidden AK47s in game.

I need to place my voice out here. I was bullied in school and know full well the apathy of the faculty. Growing up the only way that the faculty would get involved in bullying was when the bullied would fight the bully back. The problem was that both the bully and the bullied were treated just the same and both punished the same. There was no extra punishment for the bully for all the time they spent bullying without being opposed.

The biggest problem is that teachers and other faculty members let the school kids develop their own pecking order. That is not how it should be. The teachers should be at the top of the food chain. They should be the most respected people in the school not the bullies.

Unfortunately, their hands are tied in most cases. They cannot trully punish bullies without fear of lawsuits and other crap from the parents of the bully. After all the bully is just being sociable. Not. They also fear that by suspending or expelling the bully, they will lose sports games as the bully is most likely a member of the team, at least in my experience.

I usually tried to avoid the bullies. Sometimes it was easy and other times not so much. It is really bad when they want a fight. They will block your path. They will egg you into a fight. They want a reason to hit you, kick you etc. They will do anything to make you throw that first punch. If you don't throw the first punch after the verbal abuse, they will resort to physical means. They will grab you. They will push you. They will take you stuff. Anything to get you to throw that first punch. Boy is it hard not to throw it. If by some means you retain your composure and avoid throwing the first punch after all this, then they start wiling on you anyway.

There should be more order in school. There should be rules placed and enforced by the faculty. Unfortunately no one cares.

Unfortunately, even if the schools did more about bullying, they only have athority on campas. Once you and the bully are off school grounds, the faculty can't do anything about it.

Thanks for the save! I almost forgot this was coming out soon. I need to pick it up for the Wii. I didn't get in last time.
As for bullying. I've had my nose broken and my finger broken bad (took steel pins through the joint to piece it back together). I've been thrown into a patch of poison ivy and various other unfun things. I was the butt of my class.

Guess what. Going to the faculty doesn't help. I've been punched as soon as a techers back was turned. If you go to the faculty, it just means you will get beaten up more. Being caught by a teacher didn't teach the kids to not hurt, it only taught them to not be caught.

The solution turned up right after getting my nose broken. Fighting back. Someone hurts you, and you go to a techer, you will get hurt again. If you say nothing, you will get hurt again. Fighting back, effectively, means that person won't tangle with you again. It helped that, in my case, the guy was older, bigger, and stronger. The fact that this didn't stop me pretty much told others that if I would fight back against him, I might do anything.

Is it the right message to be giving children? I don't know. I do know I wish I had gotten it earlier. Teachers (like my mother) and faculty like to think that school is all safe and friendly. It isn't. Even when I was growing up in a relativly rural, no weapon environment, school was war. You had diplomatic alternatives, but they didn't always work. I was a good talker, people would say that I laid the blarney stone. But you can't talk your way out of things all the time.

The key is propper retaliation. Public shaming is bad, so is anything that will warrent their own retaliation. A few punches in the gut with an explanation that you are doing them a favor for not marking them up or humilating them. Afterwards, I've actually made friends once or twice (not good friends, but no more violence between us).

The idea that you can make it through the world by talking or bending over is unrealistic. However, you shouldn't teach that violence is the best solution.

Parents keep thinking that children are being made violent by videogames. Guess what, children are violent from the get go. Raising a child to be non-violent merely means they will be the target of others' violence. They will still be exposed to violence, but with the additional leason that being bigger means it is right to hurt others. This, in turn, leads them to abuse anyone smaller. Anyone who thinks that you can fight violence with kindness hasn't really seen violence. They have probably seen pettiness and thought it was violence.

Violence has it's place in our society, as it has had it's place in every other society since the dawn of time. The key is to fight violence with inteligence. In movies this usually has the smart kid pulling embarrasing pranks on the bigger kids. In real life, you are lucky if that only leads to some broken ribs. To really fight violence with inteligence means the propper mix of violence, talking, and face saving.You let them know you don't want to be messed with. You have to demonstrate that you are capable of doing worse in retaliation (you actually HAVE to be able to do worse). You have to also not humiliate the other person, or they will have to retaliate. Let them know that you aren't trying to change their social standing, you just want to be left out of it. Explain you have your own problems, and that you would rather not have any more if you can help it.

After a talk like that (and a small butt kicking) I've actually had one bully telling another bully to lay off me, I was cool.

[...] Source via Gamepolitics [...]

[...] source: gamepolitics.com [...]

@Neeneko

Nor will bullying be fixed by banning violent video games.

Inmost cases from what I see they're looking for a magic easy button to fix all the problems without having to actually do any work.

@lumi
I found your implication that any human being could be reduced to a series of outside stimuli to be somewhat offensive to ideals of individual accountability in a free society, which I value. I found your rush to blame the bullies instead of the shooters for school shootings to be just plain disgusting.

Good for you. I find your implication that bullying is a non-existent problem that should be ignored because you can't figure out how to better define it to be highly offensive AND disgusting. Cry me a river.

And since you clearly had some trouble with your reading comprehension, I did not say that people can be reduced to nothing but a series of outside stimuli. Not even close. As a matter of fact, I specifically said that it required a certain kind of individual to begin with. And my "rush to blame the bullies" is because they're the biggest contributing factor in MAKING the shooters into shooters.

People are ultimately the ones responsible for their own actions. But if you think, for example, that Eric and Dylan would have gone on that rampage if they had never been picked on by those other kids at school, the ones they specifically targeted during the shooting, then you're delusional.

Here, to help you out, I grabbed some quotes from Wikipedia.

"Bullying is the act of intentionally causing harm to others through verbal harassment, physical assault, or other more subtle methods of coercion such as manipulation."

"In colloquial speech, bullying often describes a form of harassment perpetrated by an abuser who possesses more physical and/or social power and dominance than the victim. The victim of bullying is sometimes referred to as a target. The harassment can be verbal, physical and/or emotional.Sometimes Bullies will pick on people bigger or smaller than their size.Sometimes bullies will hurt people verbally and physically because they are hurt at home or they might hurt people just for kicks."

"Norwegian researcher Dan Olweus defines bullying as when a person is "exposed, repeatedly and over time, to negative actions on the part of one or more other persons." He defines negative action as "when a person intentionally inflicts injury or discomfort upon another person, through physical contact, through words or in other ways."

Sounds pretty accurate to me. If I had to define it in my own words, it'd probably go something like this:

"Bullying is the intentional infliction of pain, be it physical, emotional, or psychological, by one person (the bully) on another (the target)." I could go into the reasons, but it doesn't really matter why. You hurt someone for the sole purpose of hurting him/her, you're a bully. End of story.

@kurisu

Heh. nope, banning any class of video game would likly have zero effect on such problems. I did not wish to communicate that I was in favor of restricting games or even relating them to such behavior (which I think is bunk), just that bullying can be a real problem that is worth addressing.... which unfortunatly teachers, administrators, parents, and support networks generally do not address in a constructive manner.

Calling for banning bully falls well into the 'not in a constructive manner' catagory.

Bullying is nothing new - it has been around since these folks making the complaints were kids, and it will be around when our grandkids have died of old age.

It also is not limited to the young, as I witness bullying of varrying degrees at work everyday, in a corporate environment. Bullying can take on many different forms, and this game WILL NOT be a cause of more bullying.

Perhaps it will help some of the poor kids who's school years are filled with ridicule and misery due to their intelligence, lack of style, family financial situation, sexuality, appearance, etc etc etc. I know games were always a way for me to escape reality as a kid, until I got old enough and capable of standing up for myself better.

Bring on the gaming - I call 'Bully-shit' on this whole issue!

How can a group of TEACHERS miss the point so damn easily!? TEACHERS! How long were they hiding under that rock when they suddenly found out about Bully?

ARGH!

@ Stinking Kevin
Subtle differences. I supported my claims with facts, for one. I did it to make a point, not for the sake of causing you suffering, for another. Sort of central points to the whole issue, if you'd been paying attention.

And you undermine your own points and then just conclude your post by saying "but I don't think any of that really matters, oh well".

rely on the intentions of the so-called “bully”

Glad we agree on something, as I already stated this.

Not because we are a family of “bullies,” I certainly don’t think, but because playful teasing and sibling rivalry have been normal, healthy aspects of our relationships with one another.

What is this, some kind of epidemic going around? I refuse to believe that you're so stupid that you don't realize the difference between these two situations. And it's based entirely on the INTENT of the "bully" and the INTERPRETATION of the "target", as you already pointed out for us. You left out one other key element, so I'll fill it in for you: the AWARENESS of the bully.

The same explicit action can be considered bullying in one context without being such in another. Shoving, for example. I'm sure you've shoved a sibling before, and then you both laugh about it. Why? Because what you did didn't physically hurt him/her, and because the social dynamic between the two of you allows for that sort of activity without any kind of demeaning or hurtful connotation. Or hey, maybe it doesn't. Maybe you shove your siblings around for jollies and it really upsets them. I don't know.

But a kid in school who shoves another kid, calls him names, whatever, and KNOWS that these actions bother the other child, and continues to do so and derive some kind of pleasure from it? Yes, that's a fucking bully, and no amount of verbal gymnastics is going to change that.

one thing is clear, no matter what we might try to say,

people who bash Bully or any other type of violence in Videogames have NEVER played the game themselves

Its so funny these politicians think gaming causes anything. If it ain't Elvis, Or Marylin Manson, its vid games. It is ok and we HAVE freedom of speech. I love to play violent games and I love gore and everything wrong in them. I loved the manhunts for what they were and I will buy this Bully game just for the sheer fact these people basically marketed the game to my awareness. I am no stranger to gaming or entertainment. Maybe they shoudl realize where most of this crime comes from: it comes from having all of our naturally violent culture suppress all anger with the flight response instead of teaching how to deal with it by playing such games. I am a very dangerous type of person trained in this and that. And I love violence in entertainment. But I'm not a monkey and I easily don't do any of this stuff. It doesn't even come to mind and even in certain situations where someone threatens me, well, our legal system allows some defense.

Bottom line, there are free porn videos online to dl and srteam. there is REAL LIVE violence we can watch for free as well. PLaying a game, even a realistic game, is no more than watching a movie and having some more engagement in it. If they spend their energy on voilence in vid games, maybe they should realize our civilization is built around lifestyle obsession where palstic surgery is considered ok, and overeating wide and people care about what they wear more than who they are. Maybe they should focus on that and not some stupid freaking entertainment WE CHOOSE TO BUY.

I still consider Bully to be one of the most finely-crafted traps of our time, and this is evidence of just how well-crafted it was. When it first came out, it might as well have been tailor-made to catch Jack Thompson in his own stupidity, and it did so with almost supernatural grace. But how many traps can still catch prey long after they've already been sprung?

Pretty much all controversial art, movie, or literature get all these kind of hype, even if some of them win Pulitzer prizes and what not and are considered to be the best ever created. I won't argue whether it's right or wrong to ban the game, as the topic has been done to death since GTA and Bully came out, but for the record, I think banning it is pretty stupid.

Banning it or not, Bully is still a great work of art.

@ E. Zachary Knight

What I have to say is if the games are really good then go ahead and play them even though you despise the companies that made them.

You never know what game company to despise next for certain situations just like how I liked EA before they decided not to release Thrill Kill only 2 weeks before the release date to give their company a nicer image.

While all these situations are happening with these companies I will just play whatever great game I come across even if a company I disliked took part in the game.

[...] Earlier that week, GamePolitics reported on an worldly coalition of teachers who are concerned about the negative effects Rockstar’s game could have upon release.  Seemingly unaware of the fact that Bully has been out for well by a year, they are still calling for retailers to ban the game. [...]

Hi,

I just got the game last week. And must say that I can´t see really that this game would encourage young people to do bullying. It has a good story, you come as a problem kid to a school where you have to survive. there are other kids who are doing the bully, but YOU can help the weak ones, and stand up against the bullies. You must go to class, go to sleep,....
It is a funny game. There isn´t any blood in it.
I can´t understand that they are accusing the game of setting up children doing the bullying. Maybe we should anaylize other things. SOme examples:

Shin-Chan (cartoon from japan, very famous in Spain): The kid is insulting him Mother/father, showing his butt

The Simpsons: How many time they don´t shoot people, kill them hack them (Itchy & Scratshy) in two, or other creul stuff

Daily News: Seeing stuff from Irak, the fighting,.....

Hocky Games: Where the players fight every game

.....

So maybe they should start frist in doing something on that.



Ps: I have two kids, so I know what I am talking about!

SOME GAMES (ABOUT THREE OR FOUR) ARE SICK AND WERE A MISTAKE TO RELEASE. CANIS CANEM EDIT IS COMPLETLEY HARMLESS