March 10, 2008 -
Legislators in West Virginia are considering a bill that would authorize the training of public school students to hunt.The measure, which has already passed the state senate, comes as revenues from from hunting licenses have fallen off by nearly $2 million. As reported by the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Frank Jezioro, director of West Virginia's Department of Natural Resources, said:
There are no down sides to it. If you don't want to take it, you don't have to take it. But teaching anybody safety is a good thing. When I grew up, you didn't have video games. We have an obligation to see that these kids have exposure to the outdoor world and if they like it.
Added Senate Majority Whip Billy Wayne Bailey, sponsor of the bill:
We want to generate interest in hunting and make it as easy as possible for kids who are interested in hunting to pursue it. We're losing [potential hunters] on the younger end because they go through school and never get to [hunting]. Then they go off to college and it's never been a sport they've come to like.
Comments
Hunting? Are you nuts?! Shooting guns for sports - fine by me. But leave the animals alone.
It's a hard issue to deal with. I completely understand the side that says "Don't kill the animals". I don't like killing things, expecially things that can show emotions the way deer and most game can. They are clearly living things that feel pain, and we are dishing that pain out.
However, I also understand the point of view of the hunters. What they are doing is not very different to nature. People like PETA say that animals never waste and only hunt for if it is "necessary for survival". Anyone who says that however, is misinformed and ignorant of the way nature works. Have you ever watched a cat play with a mouse? Nature can be very sadistic... Have you ever seen the a Lion kill its own son, simply because it was growing too big and becoming a threat? Nature can be cruel and calculating. Maybe the remains will be eaten by scavengers, maybe they won't. Nature doesn't care, I promise you.
My point is, arguing that we shouldn't kill the animals because it's "pointless and cruel" is wrong. Hunting is not pointless, as people have fun doing it. Hunting is incredibly cruel, but that is the way of the world. To argue that we should not be cruel is arguing that we go AGAINST our nature... many activists really don't understand that.
/rant
Besides, is a shooter going to use the exact gun that the hunting safety class is using? Probably not. I'd love to take hunting safety and go hunting with my dad, I just never got around to it. It's a great skill, and a fun time.
I must agree to a point that video games and TV are keeping kids and adults inside, getting rid of some of the American ideals (like hunting), so I can understand the concern
@those that said things about killing deer, etc
Here in Michigan, we started passing laws to limit the amount of deer hunting, and the amount of white-tail deer skyrocketed. Where we are right now, white-tail deer population is just about right, so I don't any problems there....
@many of the others
It doesn't say that video games are murder simulators or any of that, just that video games are keeping people inside, and thus WV is losing money on hunting licenses.
This isn't about "training kids to shoot people," that's just as stereotypical and biast as the anti-video-gamers that claim violent games make kids violent. Gun safety is something every kid should know, so that they don't make a mistake when they actually do pick up a gun for whatever reason. It's not about training how to kill, it's training how to be safe. If a kid wants to kill innocent people at his school, he's going to be able to do it no matter what, because there isn't much to know about guns.
@Unruly
Agreed.
@Unruly
Well yes, my instructor did go over those points as well. In order to ensure a humane kill. Like you said. He also touched up on distances, and when you should shoot, all to make the kill as quick as possible.
What I was more referring to was hands-on training. People on here make it seem like it will train them to hunt, it will train them to fire better. Which is BS. You don't actually go out shooting afterwards and the teacher doesn't give you pointers on how to increase your aim while your at the range.
They're probably crying hypocracy because they didn't real the article closely enough to realize the only thing games are accused of doing here is make people couch potatoes.
Do you think the guy who goes out and robs people with one, will say "well the law says they are wrong, so I'll just stop being a theif/robber/rapist/serial killer and move on with my life!"
No, they will either FIND a gun (if we can bring in large cubic tons of cocaine, we can bring in weapons) or make one (prisoners in jails have been known to make make-shift firearms out of piping and springs) to do their deeds.
That leaves those of us who are trying to live our life justly, our of protection. Violence will only get worse if we ban them.
And even if we make them extinct, and take away peoples abilities to make them somehow. They will then use clubs, bats, cars, sticks, knives, pencils, hammers, electricity, water, fire, ect.
"From evolution we have been killing each other I figure man should have it down to a science"
Pantera rules
We don't want them learning how to shoot up schools in them evil vidjagames so we will teach them how to shoot real guns to kill real living things!
Am I the only person seeing the irony here?
maybe they'll teach the kids to hunt responsibly (not on other people's land, take what you kill and use it, etc) but i doubt it.
i don't, however, see a downside to it unless they're going to secretly tax video games.
It MAY teach them a thing or two on how to use a gun responsibly.
That, and they'll probably take it on animals if they feel miserable instead of shooting schools.
Exterminating all deers one family a day!
At worst though, it could provide the wrong people with access to and training in the use of guns. I sincerely hope that potential trainee hunters are screened before being accepted. People like the Vtech killer should never have been able to get their hands on guns because of their mental instability. I just hope that the authorities in charge of this can recognise who should or should not be able to go on this training.
I does seem a little funny though that all the alarmists and luddites who claim video games teach people to kill, "they train for sniping on Halo!", will not bat an eyelid at this, an activity that teaches younger people how to hold a gun, aim, adjust for conditions, control their breathing and pull the trigger.
Yes, there is a bit of irony in that release, but when you live in a rural area like I do, people need ot hunt to provide for their families. Now, I've never been into hunting, but I did take the course and you have to understand that this is how in some area's of the country people sustain their families. Jobs up here in the U.P. have fallen off faster than any where in Michigan
I know how negative we can all be here at times and I still don't think anyone needs a semi-automatic rifle to go hunting, but there is no harm in this. If they do it in the same way they did it here in Michigan, the only weapon brought in was a non-working one and they taught us how to be responsible as well, ie respect others property, watch for other hunters, etc.
Hunting is a skill I happen to think is worth knowing because even though i value animal life its only natural to eat other animals so i have no objection to hunting as a means to an end and if you find yourself in need of food with no place to go buy it you're left with little choice.
but im dead against people using hunting as a means to blow off steam, if thats their attitude they should just buy a punching bag.
Not true. It just makes them more likely to kill the person they intended to, instead of killing someone accidentally. However, I don't think that learning how to use a gun is a bad thing. I just think that, much like video games, it is completely irrelevant to the whole psycho-killings issue...
A persons level of violence is unrelated to their knowledge of weapons. Of course, it could be argued that *some* of these kids will have violent tendencise (law of averages predicts that at least some will) so therefore you are going to teach *some* violent kids how to use weapons. I think they would ahve learned anyway, so it's irrelevant... but the argument could be made...
That said, I think it is a great idea to teach kids proper gun safety and handling. The world would be a much safer place if all kids were taught those important skills.
That is one of the great things about Boy Scouts. Gun usage and safety are important parts of Scouting and one of my favorite activities.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
Exactly! I mean where are you more likely to learn the correct way of loading, taking stance, taking aim, steadying your breathing, unload a few rounds into your classmate and then turn on yourself?
I know there is training for the responsible handling of weapons, but after spending long enough at college and some time at a Scottish range, I gotta tell you, not everyone actually pays heed to the information, least of all people who have a chip on their shoulder anyway.
I am also not a fan of the idea of hunting in replacement of games for another reason: you are actually killing something, in videogames you get to bust a cap into virtual people in a virtual world with virtual guns purchased with virtual money, in reality, you actually shoot the gun, take a life and move on, this is something that could have a tremendous effect on a child's psyche, much more than pixellated shooting, because you are actually ending the life of another living thing, call me a hippy if you want, but I just think that unless it is something that a child is extremely mentally prepared for then I don't think that kids shooting animals is a good idea.
Anyway... this is totally unexpected. You have politicians everywhere yelling about the evil of violence and videogames but then you get these guys wanting to teach kids to stalk and kill their prey making them effective killing machines. To quote Bart Simpson, “the ironing is delicious”.
Ironing?
Teach them to hunt, fine.. but they should be required to kill, gut, skin, cook and eat everything they kill, or otherwise provide it to others who will eat it.. they should be taught to use every possible part of the animal for something, and preferably hunt with more traditional weapons than "easy mode" guns.
I fully support teaching the younger generation respect for the natural world, and about where their food comes from.. everyone should be taught that meat is an animal that has died so that they might live. Hunting for food is fine, hunting for hides and clothing is fine, hunting to /honestly/ protect farm livestock is fine.. hunting for sport and throwing away/stuffing the corpse is a despicable act.
I'm in agreement... I agree
Glad to see a fellow brit agreeing ;) (I assume from your name you are in Aus too?)
Incidently, the ironing thing from JB's post refers to an episode of the Simpson's where Bart mispronounces Irony as Ironing, I assume.. cant remember the exact episode but its familiar.
Grift of the Magi. Long story short: Springfield Elem. is taken over by Kid First Industries (toy manufacturers) and uses the students for research instead of actual teaching. Bart excels and Lisa doesn't.
Bart Simpson: [laughs] Lisa in trouble. The ironing is delicious.
Lisa Simpson: The word is irony.
Bart Simpson: Huh?
And back on topic.. I agree with Thomas. No other animal hunts for pure entertainment besides man and I don't agree with that.
I am British Irish, lived in England all my life, pominator means:
Pom = English (Australian term)
Inate = Destroy (Latin term)
or = er (confused term)
Its also my gamer tag on xbox live if you are ever playing
Anyway
I still think that this plan will not work, there will be too much opposition to it and not just from us who feel a bit disgraced by what they are suggesting
We are predators.. omnivores yes, but we eat meat as part of our natural diet.. for meat, we must hunt and kill.. this is why we have such things as eyes in the front of our heads and canine teeth.
One of the worst tragedies of modern society is that many children grow up with no idea where their food comes from. I have heard all to many kids asked where, for example, a meat comes from.. answer... "the supermarket".
Not just little kids either, teenagers and sometimes even adults for some reason find it alien and sickening to accept that an animal died that they might eat.
While I disagree with using guns to hunt, because I feel there needs to be a far more honest and vicersal side to it, as I said in my previous post teaching them this fact of life is important and far too neglected these days.
I am pretty sure I read something about Rhinos goring some animals just for the prestige that comes with having done so, as well as gorillas tearing other simians apart in tests of strength...
sorry to rain on your parade, but I do think that we do it in a lot more excess than is needed, so your point is semi made
Which is EXACTLY why I walk through the forest pushblade in hand rather than a glock
We are smart enough to teach hunting skills without actually having to resort kill animals to see how it works.
Respect for the fauna alone dictates that we only kill what we *must* eat. If we can just as well get the meat we need for a shop right around the corner, it's a totally needless kill. Target practice is fine, even if it's moving target practice, but it doesn't have to be animals just for the sake of giving the kids the real treat.
I suggest that kids should learn as much as they can about modern food processing as possible. Believe me, kids are smart, they'll learn where the food comes from, what to eat and what not, all the important details. Visit the butcher, have the kids learn all about how to get the right parts of the meat, how to skin if necessary. Dealing with these things is quite important, because it's sometimes difficult when kids are overly queasy with blood and what have you.
I hope you understand what I mean. We breed lots of animals for the sole purpose of eating them. We don't have to go out and kill them in the wild needlessly.
Thomas, humans do not need to eat the flesh of other creatures to survive. As humans we have a choice, unlike true carnivores who need to eat flesh. Take a look at those incisors of yours. They are nothing like the incisors of a true carnivore. Do you really think you could bite into and kill a live animal with those things?
Anyway, I realise this isn't a vegan blog, so I'll just leave it at that.
But now that I think about it, I only began learning about the fundamentals of responsible gun safety and ownership when my dad got me an air rifle, and started encouraging me to take up target shooting as a sport.
Here's to hoping teaching hunting will lead down a similar path.
But now that I think about it, I only began learning about the fundamentals of responsible ownership and gun safety when my dad got me an air rifle, and started encouraging me to take up target shooting as a sport.
Here's to hoping teaching hunting will lead down a similar path.
I do understand your meaning, however I believe that it is important for young people to learn to hunt, kill, dismember, cook, eat and use the carcass of animals for a whole variety of different reasons.. the slaughter of purely domesticated animals in a controlled environment is surgical and unfeeling, there is no empathy for the animal, everything is done that is possible to remove emotion from the equation. Sure, it teaches the kids where it comes from.. but there is no respect there. Then of course there is the fact we have all but eliminated most natural predators, and certain species of large prey animals do in fact need hunting in order to keep their numbers down to healthy levels, I am a firm believer that if we cause a problem, by removing a creature.. it is our responsibility to fill that void at least in part.
The problem for me is that we have, for centuries, been trying to remove ourselves from nature.. our food production is automated, sanitised and "humane"... people seem to think that killing an animal with your hands is somehow a terrible thing, but line a hundred animals up and shoot bolts through their heads with a machine and its okay... while I accept that it is simply not possible for us to produce the amount of food we need by hunting alone, I believe that the emotional connection.. the knowledge that, as you watch an animal die in your hands, directly from your actions, smelling its blood and then dealing with it while it is still warm before cooking its flesh to eat, that it died in order for you to have this meal, that you were solely responsible for its death... is an important part of the respect we have lost for the natural world and indeed something we are loosing far to much in ourselves.
I do not believe people should be allowed to hunt living creatures purely for sport, as I mentioned previously... but hunting for food is different, especially if it is used to teach the lessons I mention above.
As a student learning about human physiology I have this to point out in a nonviolent (IE blade still in lower left pocket) way, we are designed with meat eating as part of a VERY important dietary system, our organs that work on the digestion of fruit and vegetables alone are very small and almost completely defunct in this day and age, a non-meat diet is nowhere near enough to sustain our bodies properly as the lower left intestine is near enough the only place in our bodies that contains the necessary vegetable digestion materials and acids, the reason our incisors have become so small is due to the adaptation of our bodies to the new system- get meat, prepare meat, eat meat, long ago our incisors were very large indeed, but as part of the process of evolution, we have developed smaller cutting teeth, the sort that remain entirely inside the mouth so that we can break apart the food inside ourselves, keeping the heat and air trapped as well, thus allowing as many nutrients as possible to remain in our bodies.
Our bodies require a plethora of different nutrients, ranging from carbohydrase to lipasic acids, every single amino acid, every vitamin that we need requires a diet of meat and vegetables, if we try to become a vegetarian race in the near future then we stand to weaken our race as a whole, and it will be our next generations that suffer for it.
Meatman.
/rant
hunting isn't very nice
I guess the idea is something like "if kids want to learn how to kill, they might as well learn it from someone who does it professionally".
@Conejo - You obviously have skewed views on how real backwoods hunting actually works. Its not like going to a game preserve and just waiting for something to cross your path. While that is usually how most people bowhunt, gun hunting is usually a mixture of trekking through the woods, finding a viable spot, and waiting as well as group hunting in which you have part of the group walk and flush out the deer while the other part waits. Hunting coyote, squirrel, rabbit, and other small game is all down to walking around and finding them most of the time. All of these are techniques that have been in use for millennia.
@Everyone who mentions proper handling of game after the kill - In West Virginia you're required to take a Hunter Safety Course before you can get a hunting license, and while trophy hunting is entirely legal they emphasize that its best to use the meat from edible game. On that note, considering I know people will say all game is edible, I'd also like to mention that I'd like to see someone eat a raccoon or coyote willingly, under normal circumstances around here. For those who don't know, both of those animals will eat almost anything they can chew and swallow. And yes, I do eat what I kill unless its either of the two animals mentioned there. The only trophies I'll keep is the top of the skull, or at the most a mounted head and neck, where there is little to no usable meat.
@Pominator - You've never been to WV, that much is obvious. Pretty much everyone in WV that hunts is prepared for the kill, and knows that they're taking the life of an animal. The key thing being that its an animal. Even my 7 year old cousin knew what he was doing when he downed his first deer with us. There's really a lot less trauma when killing something completely different than you as compared to something that could have been you.
@E. Zachary Knight - PETA and Anti-Gun lobbyists are a rare breed in WV, as we're a very conservative state and believe heavily in our right to bare arms, among other things.
@Catboy_J - Not everyone hunts for sport. I hunt both for the thrill of the hunt, because I love the taste of venison, and because it cuts down on food bills. In general whole family hunts for the meat first, trophy second. Hunting is a VERY big part of WV lifestyles, and has been since before the state separated from Virginia. Assuming that all hunting is for sport is just ignorant.
I am both a hunter, and a gamer, and I think its important that anyone who goes hunting knows how to properly handle whatever weapon they're using be it bow, rifle, or muzzle loader. Depending on the grade that they offer the classes, I see no problem with it at all. Considering how the majority of school systems in WV are set up, you really have no choice in what classes you take until high school, which is really when you're most likely to go hunting by yourself as well. Its also the age range that seems to be more predominant in school shootings, so some could argue that it could contribute to that, but I see it working the other way. I see these classes as basically being a Boy Scouts lesson that teaches you proper handling of a firearm, how to field dress game, general hunter safety, and maybe common plant/animal identification.
Hunting is an outdoor activity that can work just like any sport can. If you get yourself a hunting group based in family, it becomes a great bonding experience and can lead to a great sense of accomplishment when you down the big one. When you really think about it, there's little downside to hunting at all.
@300baud - Why is it that I find your statement ironic? Oh wait, its because the uneducated are the ones who think that people in WV are ignorant and backwards... Seriously people, we aren't inbred, backwards hicks. We may be conservative as a whole, but we aren't stupid.
It is because that of that emotional distance we have come accustomed to in the process of killing, dismembering, skinning animals - that children need to see this process. But I disagree that they have to learn by doing. We might as well agree to disagree here.
I think a butcher to teach them how to use the carcass for food or skin must suffice. By having kids see the modern ways of food processing you also show them that there are definitely things in life that they might be able to change for the better in the future.
I can see what you mean when you say emotionally detached, and that you think they need a first hand experience, but I really beg to differ. I don't differentiate which is more cruel: to kill an animal in the wild with a gun or to do the same thing in food processing as it is called. Even if it is a given that the first shot will actually kill the animal, and not just wound it (which is an especially gruesome thought. Only professional hunters should ever really take aim to kill an animal).
I do know about having to kill animals so that others can live. Many of Germanys forests are taken good care of by hunters who've learned this from early on. I'm most certainly not happy about that either but it is acceptable within the boundaries given by nature, the law, and those proffessional hunters who do this for a living.
I still believe there just might be other ways to deal with such problems but the finances don't really allow for that. About having empathy for the animal ... I can't know how you feel, personally, but I don't think there isn't much empathy there in most people, sadly. I don't know that many people who feel this deep and firmly rooted respect for the animals that some of us do.
It's difficult for me to formulate my arguments; I'm not feeling so good. I do agree with some of what you say, most notably that kids need to learn hunting. We just don't really look see it the same way. Killing to teach or learn killing in this time and age, it feels wrong to me, and always will, that I know for sure. The only way I'd let kids shoot at real living animals would preferably be a blow pipe with something to stun the animal for a short time. Now that's hunting.
Listen, in alot of rural areas people need to hunt to cut down on food bills. If you don't like it, then don't do it. I can afford not to hunt, but I have friends who actually need to hunt because we live in a poor area. If they didn't hunt, expecially during the the fall, their families would go hungry or be on welfare.
It's just too bad some folks here have narrow little minds.