U.K. Xbox Boss Prefers PEGI Rating System to BBFC
While the British video game industry is generally holding its breath in anticipation of this month’s release of the Byron Report, Xbox UK boss Neil Thompson (left) tells gi.biz that he prefers the Pan-European Game Information (PEGI) game content rating scheme to that of the British Board of Film Classification (BBFC):
We made it very clear to the Byron Report team, both as an industry and as Microsoft, that we strongly believe that PEGI has a lot more benefits for customers, parents and for everyone involved in the industry really…
PEGI has been established for quite a few years now as the industry standard, so the industry has got behind it and invested a lot of time and effort in it, and it offers a level of in-depth information as well as a level of expertise to be honest, that the BBFC doesn’t…
We’re all gunning for the right thing I think, it’s just that PEGI is the right way…
The BBFC, of course, is best known to the gaming community as the body which banned Manhunt 2 in the U.K. in 2007.
Via: bit-tech
March 11th, 2008 at 8:10 am
Frankly, I agree with him.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:12 am
What I don’t understand is why the UK refuses to just accept PEGI as their own standard. What? Are they too proud not to accept something if it’s not homegrown?
March 11th, 2008 at 8:23 am
I agree a rating system that rates and does not ban is perfect. ^_^
March 11th, 2008 at 8:41 am
Twin-Skies:
The BBFC does everything. It’s more convenient to have a single body that judges all the media than have lots of separate organisations that all require separate legislation to enforce.
And Dennis, your continued focus on the Manhunt issue? Not cool, nobody actually in the UK affected by the ban CARES.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:43 am
- agreement, the PEGI is infinitely better than the BBFC as they give accurate content descriptors that explain what is going on in the game, they do tend to be a bit harsh on the ratings however. the BBFC gave mass effect a 12 whereas the PEGI rated it 18+!
So sometimes the BBFC should be used
how about the company that gives the lowest rating’s rating appears on the box?
March 11th, 2008 at 9:20 am
The BBFC suits the public far better than the game developers so it’s not wonder that he prefers PEGI.
As to the continued Manhunt 2 debacle, that’s one of the only games that has been banned by the BBFC.
The UK is hardly likely to throw away a rating process which has worked for 90 years just because a few gaming fans dislike their stance on Manhunt 2.
Lets not forget that the BBFC had many detractors when it banned The Exorcist and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, but it has since relented on both due to the changing concepts of the time. It’s a process of public interest and understanding based on context, rather than a tick-box rating system.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:25 am
I prefer the BBFC rating - it is far more recognisable to parents than a PEGI rating and there is no ambiguity there at all. If they buy an unsuitable product for a child then they are at fault 100%.
I am not happy about the ban on Manhunt2 even though I do not wish to play it, but I expect that to be reversed in time.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:35 am
The PEGI ratings are fine but the symbols are rubbish. The symbols here http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/176 are not all that obvious.
Square symbols make them look like part of the publisher’s logo. If you want to indicate it’s a warning, use a triangle. Add colours. Black and white only stands out against primary colours. These symbols only stand out on the kids games where they’re not used. They get lost in the muted colours of most adult games.
PEGI needs to get some decent designers in and actually work out what they’re trying to achieve with their warnings.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:38 am
I dont think its a matter of Brits not liking things that aren’t homegrown. I think that generally our problem is more usually about losing our own cohesion as a society by Accepting so many foreign ideas/ideals.
Our system works and has worked for almost a century. The BBFC has almost seemlessly intergrated Gaming media into its ratings system and if Manhunt (and carmageddon) was taken out of the conversation has a very good and agreeable record for the consumer. We get annoyed by censorship but we fight against it and it is very rare. I dont see that it needs to be changed.
What is this Global Community Obsession?
we dont all need to have the same, just so long as its understandable. Any american could walk into a UK game shop and understand in about a second if a game was suitable. I assume it would be the same the other way round !
Sigh.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:45 am
@ Colonel Finn and odc04r
But that won’t be effective in the case of Manhunt. Movies have a long lasting appeal and market. A movie can be banned today and ten years from now when it is unbanned, will still be able to capture a large enough market shere to make it worth rereleasign it.
Games don’t have that luxury. They have very short life spans and when a game is banned today, there is no hope for it when it is unbanned ten years from now. It will not be able to capture a large enough market share because by that time they will be at least one maybe two console generations behind. An update to the game would be costly and would have to go throug hthe ratings process again and risk the new version being banned.
Not really cutting it on the equal oppurtunity in media.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:20 am
@Cheater87
I agree
@Canary Wundaboy
I care, not cause I don’t get to play Manhunt 2 (which I’m not interested in playing) but who has the right to tell me what I, as an adult who is nearly 19 years old can and can not read, watch and\or play.
Plus I’ve heard from various sources that they’ve seen movies that are more violent and horrifying (like SAW and Hostle) than Manhunt 2 could ever dream of. If SAW and Hostle could easily get an 18 rating, why can’t Manhunt then get it.
Fare enough keeping violent games out of childrens hands, but why should they be kept out of the adults hands too?
Also with the BBFC, they use worded description for ratings (i.e. “Contains mild violence” or whatever) while the PEGI uses pictures. UK is full of immigrants that can’t read english, so the PEGI symbols would be more ideal for them.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Here we go again…
Colonel Finn please explain to me how the BBFC “suits the public better” cf. PEGI?
Also more generally why is nearly a century of existence a positive argument in favour of the BBFC. At best that statement is rather debatable. The BBFC as it operates now arose in the ’80s as a response to “video nasties”; it no longer bears much resemblance to the censorship board it evolved from. However, even if we accept the long standing of the BBFC, age is still no argument against change. By all means cite the board’s would be independence etc. as support of the BBFC rating games but let’s not pretend some great tradition is being violated.
Furthermore, let’s not forget that the BBFC only recently really began rating video games (they are a relatively new media after all). Indeed rating has fallen to the BBFC by default, not really by any merit I can discern, and even then they’ve only picked up rating some of the most violent games. That being the case I see no reason why people cannot make a case for an alternative system.
@EZK a very good point, well made, certifying a game several years down the line would be a token gesture at best.
Last but not least I’m bemused to see how many of my fellow countrymen are happy to have media censored. I can’t help but wonder how people will feel when it happens to something they do want to play. What’s the betting that when it does happen many of the people making light of the Manhunt 2 ban will resort to overseas orders? When they do just what popular support can banning really claim to have left?
Gift.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:23 am
BTW Just realised “Here we go again…” sounded rude. It wasn’t directed at anyone in particular, just reflecting on the argument’s resurgence. Sorry all.
Gift.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:25 am
@ E. Zahcary Knight
Agreed. But it’s not just due to games being incompatible with newer systems. Games do not age well. A game that might be cutting edge today, will likely look like crap in 10 years.
Case in point, Final Fantasy 7. !0 years ago, that game was gorgeous, the story was expansive, and the combat seemed innovative. I played it again about a year ago. I swear I could count the polygons on the various characters, the story seemed a little flaky, and the combat was getting old. Still one of my favorite games of all time, but it hasn’t aged well.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:37 am
@ Gameboy
That is what I was thinking of just not it those words. An update on the games graphics and gameplay basically creates a new game. While movies can remaster the original film, games don’t really have that luxury. Every time a game is released for a new console, it is rerated.
But yes they do get dated real fast and by the time that Manhunt is rated in the UK, it will look dated and people will be playing the next bloodbath game to come along that has better graphics and gameplay.
March 11th, 2008 at 10:49 am
@Twin-Skies
Beuracracies always try to extend their power/scope, not retract. Moving to PEGI would mean that the BBFC would be giving up a piece of it’s power… and like any beuracy, they WILL fight it.
March 11th, 2008 at 11:09 am
I agree about the censorship, and if PEGI were definately not going to have that power, then I’d be right there with you. However, I’m pretty sure ( though not positive ) that if PEGI took over, they would then have that power and we’ll be in exactly the same position. Is there other benefits other than the censorship issue ?
@ Scottland89
Are we really going to take on PEGI to make the immigrants happy that haven’t bothered to learn the language of our country?
“UK is full of immigrants that can’t read english, so the PEGI symbols would be more ideal for them.”
Sorry, but honestly I think thats a horrendous arguement.
March 11th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Bob PEGI does not ban they believe that adults should be given the right to choose what to play. Unlike the BBFC.
March 11th, 2008 at 11:25 am
The bottom line I see here reading great points by both sides is BBFC is fine IF they’d stop banning games and made their rating system more diverse.
Personally PEGI… BBFC… It’s all alphabet soup to me.
The point I believe Microsoft and the industry is trying to make is they don’t believe BBFC will stop banning games. If they swore that off you’d instantly see Microsoft behind the BBFC when it comes to ratings.
March 11th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Regarding bans, it is probably worth noting that as an industry body PEGI has much interest in banning anything. Of course that conflict of interest might not be welcome to some people. (NB the BBFC started out as an industry body too.)
Gift.
March 11th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
As I understand it, the BBFC plays all games - and based on their playthroughs they give the games a rating. PEGI just requires the developers etc. to fill out an assessment form and to say what rating they’re expecting the game like say Mass Effect will be getting. Then, PEGI makes its final decisions whether the industry suggested rating should be the one the game is getting.
And in the case of Mass Effect, I think that Bioware etc. asked for the 18+ rating, simply because they probably didn’t know about the 16+ rating PEGI also has. Mass Effect got a 16+ rating in Germany which I feel should be the correct rating all over Europe.
Also, the BBFC is sort of a neutral state ratings boards while the assessment form that PEGI uses has been made with different groups, including religius groups. This actually means that say the Vatican or different Hindu or Lutheran groups have a sayingin how PEGI rates the game. If that is say, then I’d better understand why Hellgate: London did get an 18+ raring from PEGI. Afterall, the game has demons, right ?
March 11th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Change the T (Teen) to 13+ and the M (mature) to 16+ and the A (adult) to 18+ and I think maybe youve solved the U.S. ratings problem.
Thats one thing I think the PEGI system has right. I kinda like the little pics too. There are too many ages though.
March 11th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
@bob
I didn’t say to make them happy, but it would sure as hell avoid the “my son played *insert game name here* which shouldn’t be allowed in kids hands, now he’s a killer” (obviously in another language) situation when a responsible parent can’t read the rating and the reasons why they got that rating. I know of someone who abused the fact his mother couldn’t understand english to his advantage
If a paerent can understand the rating, then that theory is thrown out the window, it’s just down to crap parenting. This can help ease pressure on games when it comes to stupid pointless controversies.
I say adpot PEGI for the above reason and so we get rid of tis “You can only play what we say you can play” nonsense that exsists here in the UK with the BBFC. (the latter reason being the main reason)
March 11th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
I’m still sceptical regarding the BBFC’s claims to playing through the games they rate. If they did play the game how did they miss the strong language in Bioshock? Bioshock BBFC Cert
Also the previous entry contains references to video files (.bik .divx). This just makes me wonder how much play time the BBFC really has under its belt when it slaps a certificate on a game.
Gift.
March 11th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Hang on, Scottland89 - don’t throw the baby out with the bath water! The BBFC plays through games and makes a judgement. PEGI folk read a form. Which do you suppose is more thorough?
Personally I think the BBFC does a fantastic job, marred only by their banning of Manhunt 2 (I suspect, because of the heat the first one got). Why chuck the whole system just because it made one or two mistakes?
Your argument that it will be understandable to parents is kinda moot. Remember that it’s illegal for a minor to buy games that he/she is too young for (in the UK). Also, your argument presumes that our foreign-born parent will understand the PEGI blurb - never mind that the icons are widely slated as being the complete opposite to “immediately understandable”.
March 11th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Hold on a minute; there’s an Xbox UK boss? Does he actually do anything? This is the first I’ve heard of him.
March 11th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
@ Gift
“If they did play the game how did they miss the strong language in Bioshock?” Well they didn’t miss it, the game got an eighteen… am i missing something?
@ Steve UK
Yeah i agree about the PEGI symbols, if you took some of them literally you could come up with all sorts of conclusions.
“Warning! this game contains: Numbers! A fist hitting a window! People talking in Symbols and puntuation marks! Spiders! Gender Symbols! A syringe filled with Ink! Two guys standing close to a bright light and another in the dark! AND DICE!”
ok maybe i’m being too literal for comic effect, but both the PEGI and the BBFC rating marks are on games in the UK so i dont see why we have to change anything.
March 11th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
@Stueymon The 18 rating is correct certainly, but the accompanying text only lists violence not bad language. Compare with one of my favourite films: The Big Lebowski. Notice the bad language warning? It’s one of the things the BBFC is supposed to watch for, how did they miss it in Bioshock?
Gift.
March 11th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
One thing that is generally missed in this debate is that PEGI is a pan-European industry based self regulatory agency. There is no way that the UK Govt will allow a non-UK agency without any power to sanction, or any oversight or accountability to the UK, to control the classification and censorship of media sold in the UK.
All regulatory systems have some form of censorship and the State will seek to control it. The BBFC is independent of the Govt but is accountable to it. PEGI is not. I also doubt that PEGI will wish to become an arm of the UK State - as it tries to represent the whole of Europe. That regulatory picture is common across Europe with States having there own media regulation sitting on top of PEGI’s voluntary code. The only possible way that PEGI can increase its status is to be brought within the EU; but that will not happen in the current political climate.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Well one big problem with PEGI is that is not enforced by the law. As far as I know it is illegal for retailers to sell BBFC rated material to underage consumers, but it is perfectly legal to sell PEGI rated material to minors. So the law in the Uk would have to be ammended. Plus the PEGI rate every game, only games deemed to be more mature are passed on to the BBFC. Have you ever seen a BBFC rating of less than 15 on a game.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:18 am
I’d like to remind our UK counterparts that across the pond, in America, we use the ESRB system for video game ratings. It views a video that is prepared by the publisher and assigns a rating based on that. Afterwards, some of the games (some randomly selected, others choosen) are played to gaurantee the rating is accurate.
The ESRB, like the MPAA, does NOT carry the force of law. However, publishers do have to pay a fee, and the ESRB CAN fine those who betray its trust. If you’re concerned that some games can be sold without a rating, don’t be. No self respecting retailor would sell a game without a rating. So if you anger the ESRB enough, they could refuse to review your game.
I hope this has given some perspective.
March 12th, 2008 at 4:59 am
I had a longer response but my internet has failed me at home, but in response to one point,
Re: Gift, concerning Bipshock and language, the amount of bad language in Bioshock would be unlikely to get it more than a 15 rating, there are maybe 5 or 6 uses of the F-word and less of other expletives. Which in the UK doesn’t constitute for much considering you can get away with lesser swearing in a PG, and at least 1 use of the F-word in a 12A.
Conversely there are many scenes of bloody violence and horror in Bioshock which are by far more pertinent.
As opposed to the Big Lebowski where there is little else to give it a high rating other than the constant stream of adult vocab.
March 12th, 2008 at 5:44 am
I’d disagree with that, if you frequently wound opponents in Bioshock they swear a lot and very aggressively. It may be the same few lines but they are repeated quite regularly.
If the BBFC claim to give a comprehensive description of game contents then the swearing should have been listed. (After all the limited dialogue is inevitably repeated over and over in games.) I seriously doubt people really feel Splicers shouting “come out you F***” every time you hide away from them is deemed light swearing not worthy of mention. Certainly PEGI flagged the game up for swearing and BBFC the lapse becomes doubly perplexing when lesser rated games like Hellgate London have language warnings in their extended classification information. That is in spite of the fact much weaker swear words are used less often. Why the inconsistency? (Incidentally, note the video submissions again for Hellgate London, a 45min .mpg? Would that be game play footage? Why do their play testers need such footage?)
Some people are very sensitive to bad language, more so than the violence oddly enough, if the BBFC aim to be the most informative system then it should warn about language as well as violence. The same things do not cause offence to all people, the BBFC should be more consistent to ensure everyone knows exactly what they are getting.
Gift.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Really cannot form a solid opinion here, both systems have pros and cons. Personally, I like the BBFC for the fact it is usually pretty good about ratings and they’ve been a fixed standard for nearly 100 years, but their advantage is also their problem, being based in the UK, it’s possible for them to be influenced by Media sensationalism and government pressuring, whether they realise it or not.
As was reported recently, the BBFC recently banned a movie (can’t remember the name) and although it was probably a movie I would not have liked, there’s something in me that balks at the forbidding of the discussion of any topic from any viewpoint, even one I vehemently disagree with. I may refuse to talk to the owner of that opinion because I disagree so strongly, but I do not think that deliberately hiding the fact that the opinion exists in the first place is a good way of developing a healthy society.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:59 am
GoodRobotUs, the current director/president of the BBFC has gone on record as saying he would listen to the media, so sadly it’s not even a matter of could influence. Oh just FYI I believe the recent ban was a film called “Murder Set Pieces”.
Personally I suspect that I feel similarly to you. I’m not really happy with anything being banned, much less being banned due to media pressure. Otherwise I could support the BBFC as a ratings body, particularly if it consistently gave the content information it claims to provide.
Gift.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Damn forgot to close the tag… the link is here.
Gift.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Re: Gift, oddly enough there doesn’t appear to be an extended crit of Bioshock at all, other than mentioning strong bloody violence. Hellgate has an extended paragraph on it’s particulars, were there one (assuming I’m not just being inept and missed the tab) I’m sure they would have.
But in any case, it got an 18 rating. Thats the highest rating you can get in the UK, so it’s assumed that only 18 year olds will be sold it, and will have heard such language before.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Well fair enough, I just want to draw attention to the oddities/vagueness of game rating. It is I feel one area that the BBFC will need to improve on to gain my support.
The extra info really should be consistently made available because it does matter to some people. In fact regarding swearing, I’ve a few friends who find it highly offensive so much so I have to moderate my own language. It is weird, they are happy to chainsaw things to death in FPSs but the “F-bomb” causes major upset. I don’t understand it myself, but then I expect other people find my lack of concern regarding nudity and sex odd cf. my feelings about violence. /shrug.
Oh and one last go at making that link…
here and in case it doesn’t work:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/2165931.stm
Gift.