"and lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for minors."

Which is impossible to define in my opinion. And that's the reason why...my opinion.

In my opinion something such as X-Men or Batman comic books have serious literary (great stories) artistic (often amazing visual art work) and political (X-Men started as a statement about racism, and Batman touches on too many topics to name right now. And yet for all that someone else is gonna look at those and say "Pfft, thos are just comic books and nothing more". And to use a video game as an example (or rather a series) Metal Gear Solid. The storylines in those games are incredible (if not a little hard to follow at times) so that takes care of your literary value. It's one of the best looking games, that covers artistic. And the plots cover anything from political conspiracies to philosophical ramifications. Yet it would probably be banned, simply for the violence, under this "law".

Who are these to people that think they can decide for me what holds literary, artistic or political value?

/end rant

This bill will Fail like all the rest. Every bill that's been introduced over the last 2 years has been struck down for it's Violation of the Constitution. This just the government trying to tell us all what is "right" and what we "should" be doing (ignoring all their Hypocrisy).
It's also been proven time and again that anything with "Thompson's Taint" will fail.
Waste of Tax payer's Money (yours and mine).

@ Twin-Skies
First, I agree with you.
Second, Because the moral outrage isn't with TV and movies anymore, It's the Video Games that need regulation now. Helps Politicians with agendas get more votes too. exploit the ignorant parents.

Try pulling this crap in Minnesota and see what happens.

BANE XXIII
Minneapolis, Mn

its funny on how all they gata do is move words around add some periods and their you have it a new bill they hope psses man the bs tax money gets spent on these old politics phase out. cause they just dont see the real prblems of the world..

@Jack Thompson, soon to be disbarred...

Greetings from Mexico...

Yeah, maybe it will be constitutional like a month or two, and then it will be dismissed like other bills in the past.

@Jack Thompson, Attorney

it will never be constitutional until movies and books are involved as well.

and I don't see that happening, despite the fact that movies show you, in great detail, how to assemble and use a gun, and books, including the Holy Bible, describe violence in great detail.

Something to keep in mind, for those of you who live in the United States...as much as the Democratic Party would like to flaunt their commitment to liberal ideals and artistic expression, etc. it seems that they are the most prone to call for such legislation. While I can understand why the college crowd in your country is so excited for a change from conservative leadership, I would say that certainly Hillary Clinton's credibility as a liberal is suspect as she would seek to restrict, in any form, video gaming.

Super Mario Bros.

“depicts violence in a manner patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community"

ie. Stomping on heads, kicking turtles, and throwing balls of fire.

"lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for minors.”

Key word "SERIOUS"
literary... "the princess is in another castle" x 7
artistic... too cute to be "serious art"
political... a giant mutant turtle tyrant captures a princess... seriously?
scientific... mushrooms make you bigger and a 2D universe

Seriously, Rep. Linda Dorcena Forry, did Monsignor Ryan Memorial H.S., Boston College, or Suffolk University have a copy of the US Contitution for you to read. You need only read the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights to understand... YOU ARE AN IDIOT. I mean seriously why do dems try to take away our basic freedoms (first amendment, second amendment, etc...) then complain when terrorist's freedoms are violated.

...that is perhaps the vaguest proposal for law I've ever encountered. You're telling me we can give any celebrity (and even those slightly related to said stars) a trashy reality show and nobody complains. But Snake snapping necks in what is perhaps the most intriguing saga in interactive entertainment (arguably - I'm well aware that Sneak King has the potential for limitless sequels as well) is not considered even remotely artistic? Obviously they're blind to the tireless work of the level and character designers. Literary? Quite literally the codec dialog contains volumes of discourse more infectious than Tom Clancy. Political...yeah, MGS has been doing it since the 80's way before politics became trendy. Scientific? Well if you ignore the genome soldiers, cloning, hi-tech arms race, and fantastical anti-heroes then no it isn't very scientific at all. And I suppose if you ignore all of that then it really is just a game about mindless violence that all youth should be protected from - after all we wouldn't them to look up from their Newlyweds boxset...

Clever

"...lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for minors."

The sad part of this, is, its in my state. Nice to see my hard earned tax dollars going to waste. The bill will fail on the grounds of constitional rules. Since by defination, every one of these violent video games, is political. Every one of them is a form of artistic expression. Every one of these, takes ALOT of coding.....there's quite a bit of scientific value in this.

After all, violence tells a story. Doesnt have to be a good one. The opening scene to the movie Saving Private Ryan, is/was the most gory 20 minutes of violence. And every second, tells the story. Braveheart, is another excellent film that is very gory.

But games, are pretty gory, even though they tell a story. But instead of us as the viewing audience, we take the role of the hero(ine).

The whole Tom Clancy series of Rainbow Six: RS1, Raven Shield, Vegas 1 & 2, Ghost Recon 1 & 2, GRAW 1 & 2, Sum of all Fears. Each of those are pretty violent....but they have a great story, alot of art, and a fair degree to create them.

Still, time to write my congressmen....Kennedy and Kerry....

So Republicans are against due process and fair treatment under law while Democrats are against freedom of speech. @_@

How legislation for parents who can't montior what their kids bring into their god damned house?

Why is it always the media's fault for parental ineptness?

You know what? I want that legislation to pass one day. I want them to make it illegal to sell these games to minors.

Why?

So that a month later, when minors are still getting violent games, politicians might actually realize, parents are the number one supplier of these games, because they think throwing shiny stuff at Junior to shut him up is good parenting.

The worse thing is the fact that, they don't want to just make it illegal for a minor to buy an M-rated game. They want anything THEY see as violent to be illegal. How do I know Kingdom Hearts won't be illegal? It had me whacking away at things with a weapon. IT MUST BE BAD!

The bill is constitutional and will be held constitutional.

@Godkarmachine O Inary
Nah then they'd only end up blaming piracy & trying to ban the internet entirely or at least force us all to use something like AOL

@Pominator
I think I've been playing too much Sam & Max, I'm starting to sound like Bosco

@Aliasalpha

You have a point there. Eventually they'd just say these kids got the games off of the internet by stealing their parents credit cards because they games taught them how. Games like GTA where you kill prostitutes, sure there is no mention of stealing credit cards. But prostitutes die in that game, so it must obviously teach you how to be a criminal, steal, kill, and rob.

Then they ban credit cards to prevent future purchases.

You ever get the feeling that all this protection we give kids is unhealthy for society? I mean, they are trying to eliminate everything in our lives that they deem bad, rather than talk to us about it all. Instead of being parents, they want everyone else to nanny us so they can feel like their job is done.

Then we get out into the real world and wind up slapped around because we weren't prepared.

Or maybe that's the goal? They want us all to be in a bubble of joy, so when we grow up, we won't know anything but smiles and apple pies.

"Matter is harmful to minors if it is obscene or, if taken as a whole, it… depicts violence in a manner patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community, so as to appeal predominantly to the morbid interest in violence of minors; is patently contrary to prevailing standards of adults in the county where the offense was committed… and lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for minors."

Could not Super Smash Bros Brawl be lumped into that category by some people? It's fun, don't get me wrong, but does it have any real purpose in its "violence"?

He didn't get to the choppa in time, he is going to have to wait a while

Am I the only one who thought this story would have been much cooler if instead of House Bill 1423, it was House Bill 1337

Jack Thompson, massacre chaser says: "The bill is constitutional and will be held constitutional."

Just like the bill in Louisiana, Jack? Or the bills in California, Oklahoma and Illinois?

"HB1423 is a “games-as-porn” bill which would seek to restrict minors from buying violent video games under the same rationale used to block them from buying sexually explicit materials"

This alone makes it unconstitutional.

gotta love people that think "yeah, I know that this bill won't work, but we have to try! we have to waste money for the children!"

because if their ignorance was food, no one would ever go hungry.

@JackDon'tKnowJack

That's true. Given the current track record on these laws this one has no chance. It just seems to me the people drafting these things assume that because something is a video game it somehow automatically disqualifies it from having any kind of the above mentioned merits. I can't say if this is true or not, that's just the way it seems to me.

now i'm not some guy with a big, fancy lawyering job, but doesn't Thompson's twice-failed attempts to write a bill on this kind of make him suck at knowing how the law works?

why would ANYONE then try to emulate that?

my theory: Mass WANTS the bill to fail.
doing something makes them look like they care, and having the bill fail makes it look like it's not their fault everyone's kids suck.

"Of course I’m involved, today even.”

So, you've tweaked the law to make it constitutional? Or are you just too busy printing off letters to mail to the AG to threaten him (figuratively speaking, of course! ;)) should he/she call this a bad idea?

"...and lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for minors."

Wow. Fuck them, how ignorant can you be...

Re: The JT Comment

Okay, who wasn't guarding the doors and and allowed the lunatic into the room? Jack, whay are you wasting your time here? Shouldn't you be devoting more time to trying to save your legal career (for all the good it will do you)? That's exactly what you said about the last bill you authored. And the one before that... And the one before that... And the one before that...

At this point, I'd say if Jack himself guarantees it's constitutional, then it will definitely fail!

I was shocked until i reread the one piece of information: Massachusetts.

@A viking

You make a mistake that many people both inside ad outside the US make and that is Democrat = Liberal and that Republican = Conservative. This is to say that there has been a lack of Republican Conservative leadership and that American Liberalism has become so far removed from Western Liberalism that to call Hilary or Obama a "liberal" does not mean much.

@ Cheater97

That's another thing that the broadcast i mentioned brought up. They KNOW it's unconstitutional and similar laws have been slammed down at least nine times.

@ JT

Yes, Mr. Thompson, this is unconstitutional. MUST you have those tossed bills reach the unlucky number 13 before you even get a hint? The text in the bill in this article totally opens the floodgates to allow ANY AND ALL MEDIA to be subject to be next. TV? Gone. Movies? Forget about it. Books? Govt-sanctioned burnings. You of all people should know about those things. You know, you being a lawyer and us not and all.

@ Aliasalpha

Aha ha haaaaa not really funny.

But in all seriousness, trans fats are manmade fat-type things added to food. People have been cracking down on their use worldwide. Very few fast food joints use them anymore. Surely you've seen a '0g trans fat' on a bag of chips somewhere?

i like how people seem to claim that these violent games have no educational value but at the same time claim they teach how to kill.

"Children aged 17 and under should not be sold this stuff, so they are not getting into the hands of 9- and 10-year-olds."

"Are your children corrupting themselves using timetravel? Find out more at 11!"

[...] Quote taken from this blog post [...]

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I love the smell of doomed legislation in the morning.

What I think is hilarious is the attempt to incorporate the "Miller Test" for obscenity regulation.

It's almost word for word: To regulate media as obscenity accordoing to the Sup. Court you have to have

1) Patently offensive the average reasonable person when taken as a whole
2) Completely lacking in artistic, political, literary or scientific value
3) And appeals to the "puriant" interest in sex (Miller applied only to obscenity)

She's trying to regulate video games as obscenity, but I'm sorry Madam Rep. The Court says to the AVERAGE REASONABLE PERSON. A minor does not qualify, it fails the test. You cannot retool the ruling by adding in "minor." Your law will be subject to the Average Reasonable Person Test.

She could try to get it covered under the Brandenburg v. Ohio test for free speech. But THAT test is even worse for her because it requires that speech "Incite imminent lawless action." In Brandenburg a Klansman saying "We're going to march to Washington to seek our revengence [sic]" wasn't even considered such an incitement.

This woman doesn't seem like she's ever taken a Constitutional Law class.

The "prevailing standards in the adult community" component of the Miller test has also created some interesting wrinkles when applied to highly localized attempts to regulate so-called obscence speech (many subsequent cases have focused on local city ordinances which concern neighbourhood strip clubs). It requires the court to examine the prevailing standard not on some national level but in the particular neighbourhood. Kinda interesting. Or, maybe just to me (who found Mircosoft's antitrust prosecution "interesting," a view I'm sure not shared by all).

@nightstalker160:

You raise a good point. These silly attempts to get past Miller are doomed to failure and Brandenburg would be a better legal precedent upon which to base these legislative attempts. After all, isn't that the Jack Thompson argument? That violent video games incite violence? But the Brandenburg case doesn't really help for the same reason that Thompson's argument is bogus: lack of any clear causal relationship between violent video games and violence. For Brandenburg requires that in order for the speech to fall outside the protections of the First Amendment, it must be directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.

Dear god that post is a grammar nightmare. We need an edit feature.

Why do these people keep coming back with

Even if some old grey-hair could reasonably argue that video games are culturally worthless and offensive, they would have a hard time getting around the scientific value prong. I don't know squat about game development and code programming and the like, but it seems to my untrained eye that video games are on the cutting edge of today's computer graphics and audio technology (compare Pong to GTAIII).

@Toxicity²:

Because every politician needs an issue or two to ride which they think will get them some sympathy from the voters. Plain and simple.

[…] Link // Cache-busting and pageid values var random = Math.round(Math.random() * 100000000); if (!pageNum) var pageNum = Math.round(Math.random() * 100000000); document.write('’); document.write('’); […]

i agree completely

Why do these people keep coming back with these laws when they are obviously unconstitutional and extremely vague?

here's what happens:

step 1: mass media, with help from a certain lawyer, makes ignorant masses paranoid video-game haters

step 2: politicians who want votes see this new mass paranoia as a way to get votes

step 3: politicians, partially for votes and partially from their own ignorance, make anti-game laws

step 4: law is unconstitutional and fails to pass, which makes ignorant masses think video game companies are controlling the government and preventing such laws from being passed. paranoia ensues.

Repeat steps 1-5 until hair takes on a smooth glossy tone


every generation has a sub-culture that is used as a scapegoat for all the world's problems.

tomorrows rationale for anti-game laws: games cause global warming

"But it’s absolutely a battle that the mayor feels he should take on."


Yeah, but then again, so are Lite-Brite advertisements for Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

Well the video game is at least getting rich off of lawsuits over these failed anti-game laws.

Anything Jack Thompson takes part in is doomed to fail.

Well to me I don't care if they legislate the mature video games because it's the only way to end this "violent games make our kids killers" issue...which I don't think so but if it's going to shut them up from saying those senseless things so be it, and it will keep those annoying kids,like in CoD4 or Halo, to limit the noise in future mature games in multiplayer......

Not quite sure is going on.

I’d support the law that would prohibit kids under 15-16 from buying M-Rated games on their own. I’m not saying that all kids under 17 can’t handel it. I’m just saying I know ALOT of lil prick-jobs who don’t have the intelligence to pass basic english, and if thats a uphill battle then I’d be a little concerned if they started playing manhunt…

The thing is this is already in effect in most places, you have to have parental permission from a phone call or in person if your 15 and want to buy a M-Rated game, its the same as movies, and although its not the best, it works well enough.

k.

"The thing is this is already in effect in most places, you have to have parental permission from a phone call or in person if your 15 and want to buy a M-Rated game, its the same as movies"

The difference is, that it's all voluntary. Movies fought their battle in the 70's, and won the right to police themselves (with the exception of pornography, but that's a hot-potato issue, nobody wants to try to overturn Miller...), same with comics and music. Politicians pick on games a) because it's new, and so they can exploit the generational gap, and b) because there's no higher court rulings on games specifically to slap them around with, so they figure they can get away with it for now.

I only wish this was being held on Friday. I'm spening that weekend in Boston and would have attended it; but I'm sure the government would rather take the day off for a rather sad excuse for a holiday anyways.

@ D'sparil

No one is getting rich off the law suits, except maybe the lawyers. The only money recovered is for the cost of legal fees.

re: Gamer18's post:

Gee, I wonder how much the attorneys for the ESA and the EMA are going to collect offa this one? Six figures plus, I'd imagine.

If there ever was a good "they're in cahoots" argument to be made, it's the one regarding state legislators and the game industry attorneys. The paper trail of kick-backs from the latter to the former shouldn't be too hard to uncover.

Jack Thompson, massacre chaser says: “The bill is constitutional and will be held constitutional.”

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Well, that PROVES it then! Is that what you say in court too? No wonder all your bills fail.

I'd bet good money that the "Jack Thompson, Attorney" posting isn't the work of an imposter. How do I know? Stating a conclusion and making a prediction without a shred of support. That's like his fingerprint.

Some points:

* When you hear a big company talk about free speech issues, it is a BS flag. This is not a free speech issue for the game industry, it is a $$$ issue. The people who make GTA need kids to buy it too. That is where the $$$ is coming from.

* The game industry has done a horrible job separating games where you play a happy plumber from games where you are shooting hookers for points.

* You can't compare this situation to movies. Games are taking a form of entertainment that has been since the beginning a fairly simple things for kids. It has been viewed as part of the toy industry by families. But now, it has grown up. Not every parent follows the game industry so closely. Pacman, Mario now also includes Grand Theft Auto and it is taking a while for the public to understand that.

* Currently this is beyond just some religious wackos wanting to "kill games", it is just becoming a common sense issue. Families are getting sick of big companies marketing inappropriate games to kids. People see GTA and say, of course I don't want my kid playing that.

* All you need is one stupid parent letting one stupid kid play GTA and the whole school is infected and wants the game.

* If you don't have kids, you won't get what all the fuss is about.

@Zerodash:

Betcha the IT librarian at the Coral Gables Public Library is beginning to look at Jack likes he's more than a little crazy for popping in and out several times a day to use their computers.

@Rodrigo Ybáñez García :

>it is obvious is not a movie for children,
All games used to be for kids. Now some aren't. It doesn't make it obvious to someone not in the game industry.

>And is parent´s responsability to check what are the buying for their kids.
Yep, but they can't be everywhere. And the people do really upon the state to be sure companies are not preying on kids and selling them stuff. If I saw a drug dealer on the corner, I would not think, it is my responsibility to make sure my kid never goes near them, I would think, I'm calling the cops. I think with games, people are at that point. They are trying to have their kids not play these adult games, but are having problems making this happen and now are "calling the cops" by complaining to politicians. I think the game industry and gamers in general have been like little kids holding their ears and saying "free speech free speech free speech" instead of realizing that there is a problem and trying to fix it. The problem is, fixing the problem means loss of revenue, so how much does a company really care about that? I don't expect companies to be anything but be companies looking to make a buck. That is why people look to our government to be the one to come up with solutions.

>It is so difficult chose between Grand Theft Auto from Super Mario Galaxy? Hell, no.
To you, me, totally. To some parent who last played pong and think that all games consoles are kid's toys. Much harder.

@johnnygame:

Some points:

Some counter-points.

* When you hear a big company talk about free speech issues, it is a BS flag. This is not a free speech issue for the game industry, it is a $$$ issue. The people who make GTA need kids to buy it too. That is where the $$$ is coming from.

And yet it tends to be the consumers, more than the industry which brings up the free speech issue. It is an issue, and a volid one, and one which renders the government unable to do anything about it. That kinda is the point of the Bill of Rights -- to protect the people (and private organizations) from the Government stepping in on them.

* The game industry has done a horrible job separating games where you play a happy plumber from games where you are shooting hookers for points.

The movie industry has done a horrible job separating movies where you watch cartoon characters have a merry little musical adventure or watching some sociopath hack apart body parts with blood and gore everywhere.

(see what I did there)

Note... movies have ratings. VIDEO GAMES have ratings. Video Game ratings have been shown to be more effective than movie ratings, insofar as less children are getting their hands on GTA than on SAW.

* You can’t compare this situation to movies. Games are taking a form of entertainment that has been since the beginning a fairly simple things for kids. It has been viewed as part of the toy industry by families. But now, it has grown up. Not every parent follows the game industry so closely. Pacman, Mario now also includes Grand Theft Auto and it is taking a while for the public to understand that.

Hello Fredrick Werthem's reincarnation. Comic books were treated the same. Yet, eventually, they got past that. The "games are for kids" argument is very weak.

* Currently this is beyond just some religious wackos wanting to “kill games”, it is just becoming a common sense issue. Families are getting sick of big companies marketing inappropriate games to kids. People see GTA and say, of course I don’t want my kid playing that.

But they aren't. Just because a game is made, it does not automatically mean it is for kids. M Rated games are for adults. They are advertised for adults. They are no more marketed to children than R Rated movies are.

* All you need is one stupid parent letting one stupid kid play GTA and the whole school is infected and wants the game.

All you need is one stupid parent letting one stupid kid watch SAW and the whole school is infected and wants the movie. Seriously... that is a failure on a parent's part, not something to blame the company making the game for. Parents have the ability to tell their children "no".

* If you don’t have kids, you won’t get what all the fuss is about.

What about those who *do* have kids, and don't understand the problem. All it takes is a little responsibility on the part of the parent to make this issue not be an issue.

@Johnnygame
All games used to be for kids.

Custer's Revenge.

Well, Mayor Mumbles strikes again. I've criticized his idiotic comments before. I posted on my blog last January about a GamePolitics article where Jack and Tommy started this bullcrap.

http://www.comics2film.com/b/index.php?blog=11&p=108&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=...

As I was then, I am totally opposed. This is the same crap comics went through with the Senate hearings in the 50s due to Wertham. I'm hoping the games industry won't have to go through the same garbage and this stuff gets shut down.

Isn't the definition of insanity the repetition of an action and expecting a different result?

The truly creepy thing about this "Game" legislation is that the changes being proposed by the HB 1423 would apply to ALL media, not just games. We took this issue up at gameculture.com this morning.

http://www.gameculture.com/node/393

It's amazing when you look at the Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 272, Section 31 of which HB 1423 is set to amend. The title of the chapter is: CRIMES AGAINST CHASTITY, MORALITY, DECENCY AND GOOD ORDER

"* When you hear a big company talk about free speech issues, it is a BS flag. This is not a free speech issue for the game industry, it is a $$$ issue. The people who make GTA need kids to buy it too. That is where the $$$ is coming from."

Most gamers are currently over 30 have far more disposable income than 10-year-olds. And if a 10-year-old is buying GTA, where are the parents in this deal? Got any evidence that GTA is marketed towards kids? (And I mean REAL evidence.) I've not seen it, but you're doing great at parroting hearsay.

"* The game industry has done a horrible job separating games where you play a happy plumber from games where you are shooting hookers for points."

And yet those labels on the back of the games say otherwise. The game about the happy plumbers says "Rated E for Everyone" and the game that says you're shooting hookers (not for points, though -- do your research) says "Rated M for Mature" and has descriptors like "Graphic Violence, Drug Use, Sexual Situations, and Language." But other than that, you're correct, they're not separate at all.

"* You can’t compare this situation to movies. Games are taking a form of entertainment that has been since the beginning a fairly simple things for kids. It has been viewed as part of the toy industry by families. But now, it has grown up. Not every parent follows the game industry so closely. Pacman, Mario now also includes Grand Theft Auto and it is taking a while for the public to understand that."

The government has tried (unsuccessfully) to regulate movies, music and comic books. The game industry has matured and parents need to be a part of their kids lives and get up on the news. If you're a parent and buying Manhunt 2 for your child (because, you know, the box art just SCREAMS "kids game"), you've got big problems.

"* Currently this is beyond just some religious wackos wanting to “kill games”, it is just becoming a common sense issue. Families are getting sick of big companies marketing inappropriate games to kids. People see GTA and say, of course I don’t want my kid playing that."

It has gone beyond religious wackos. The majority of bills introduced were actually by Democrats as a strategy to make it look like they have family values. (This was a strategy come up with by a Dem think tank after they got trounced in national elections in 2000 and 2004.) As far as "big companies marketing inappropriate games to kids" goes, evidence, please. Be sure to cite time, channel and programming that it was advertised on. If GTA IV is being advertised during Pokemon or SpongeBob Squarepants, then you have the right to be worried. But I haven't seen it happen.

"* All you need is one stupid parent letting one stupid kid play GTA and the whole school is infected and wants the game."

Then I guess the other parents will have to, you know, be parents and do what they think is right for their child.

"* If you don’t have kids, you won’t get what all the fuss is about."

Being a parent is not easy. There are far more nasty influences out there in our society today that we need to watch out for. Be involved in your child's life. Know who his friends are. Know where they're going and what they're doing. And if they're not old enough, don't buy them "Chainsaw Massacre 5." It's what you signed up for when you had kids.

johnnygame:



>"All games used to be for kids. Now some aren’t. It doesn’t make it obvious to someone not in the game industry."

That´s not true. The first games like Pong, Pac-Man and Donkey Kong where arcades stablished on bars and places for adults or young adults, not in a kindergarden. Check the history of those videogames on books or websites.

>"Yep, but they can’t be everywhere."
And they must not to give to their children the credit card, either. Here in Gamepolitics I hearded stories about parents giving cash to their kids and let them to buy any game they want. That´s idiot.

>"To some parent who last played pong and think that all games consoles are kid’s toys. Much harder."

So I think they can´t diference from a porn movie from a Disney´s Princes DVD, either. Again, videogame industry can´t be blamed for idiotic parents.

>This would only be an issue if there was evidence that these video games in question actually harm kids but they don’t.

That's just crazy talk.

All great art has a profound effect on you. Movies effect you. Books effect you. Art effects you. And of course, Games effect you. It is silly to think that watching a movie, reading a book, or playing a game that it doesn't have some effect on a person.

Now is this effect good or bad? Depends on the art. Depends on the person.

But to think that these things have no effect on a kid, well that person hasn't seen a kid who played zelda, or watched a pirate movie or read a book on knights and goes outside to make a sword out of a stick and starts attacking a tree with it.

Now you can debate on just much effect it has, and whether that effect in the end is good or bad or particular kids, but to think that a game, movie or book has no effect on kids who are just plain learning sponges, is just silly.

But to think that these things have no effect on a kid, well that person hasn’t seen a kid who played zelda, or watched a pirate movie or read a book on knights and goes outside to make a sword out of a stick and starts attacking a tree with it.

Seems to me like violent or aggressive PLAY which is far different from real-life violence/aggression with intent to harm. Violent and aggressive play is perfectly normal in children.

Also i never said that violent games or media has no effect whatsoever (everything we see, read, listen to and play effects us) i just mentioned that there is no definitive proof of harmful effects. And there is none.

“…and lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for minors.”

I think a pretty significant portion of the internet is included in this. I demand ESRB ratings for all computers! (Oh wait, "Online content not rated"...)

*Sigh*

It won't pass. AGAIN.

[...] Watch the whole thing unfold on Gamepolitics [...]

>"So a parent should read up on the history of videogames before going into walmart?"

People investigate when they buy something for themselves. Why not to investigate what are they about to buy for their children? And with "history" I meaned YOU to check the history of those games I mentionated to you.

> "Not so idiotic. Just the assumption that games are toys and toys don’t need to be policed. Most parent’s watch movies, watch TV, and get that. Not every parent is a gamer."

Is not idiotic to give a child a blank check to buy whatever he/she wants?

> "It is easier, because porn movies aren’t sold in Walmart. And R movies are grouped together, separated from the kids movies. Games are just all lumped together. Harder for parents to figure out, or even realize that there is anything called E, M, or whatever. (Why the game industry didn’t just use R, PG, etc to help parents out I’ll never know)"

OK, I´ll rephrase: It is too difficult to diference between Texas Chainsaw Massacre from a Disney DVD? I think not. Even in Wallmart, people messes with the boxes and mix the movies and child DVDs ends togheter with others movies. Is that an error of the movie industry? Again, no.

ESRB is NOT HARD TO CHECK IN A BOX IF YOU REAALLY CHECK WHAT ARE YOU BUYING FOR YOUR KIDS. You don´t just check the price.

>"You can’t just wave your hands and say “Parent’s are idiots” It is better to understand the problem (and there is a problem) and figure out solutions to it or else these idiot parent’s will keep on bugging their representatives."

I didn´t mean to call parents idiots (because I have parents, too), but the act of "give money to my kid to buy the game he/she wants and don´t check what the hell have bought", that´s truly idiotic.

The thing I really piss me about those legislations they always tries (and fail) to run is the ASSUME (that´s the big key word on this issue) that children are dangerous mimics and they will do anything the watch on games/TV/movies/music.

They are saying I´M DANGEROUS FOR THE SOCIETY BECAUSE I PLAY VIDEOGAMES. THEY SAY WE ARE DANGEROUS AND USELESS FOR SOCIETY BECAUSE I PLAY VIDEOGAMES.

They are saying YOUR CHILDREN ARE DANGEROUS AND POTENTIAL SERIAL KILLERS AND WILL DESTROY SOCIETY.

[...] The Article at GamePolitics The Video Game Voter’s Network [...]

One word for this Mayor - "Jackass"... They all know this is not Constitutional, they are doing it to 'look tough' or being 'family friendly' to get votes or favors... More evidence of Liberals taking away our freedoms...

[...] According to this, Massachusetts politicians are to vote on a House Bill this week that, if passed, would elevate videogames in state law to being as damaging to children as the sex industry. [...]

You know everytime they try to throw violence under obscenity using the Miller test, I always wonder, why don't they put that it lacks serious literary, artistic, political, scientific or historic value for minors.

I mean really graphic descriptions of the torture used in the Spanish inquisition would probably be offensive and appeal to the morbid interests of some people, yet we need that information.

Oh and the mayor needs to know how to pick his battles. He may think it's a battle worth fighting for, fine. But if it's a sure thing he's going to lose why bother fighting? The attack (bill) won't weaken his foes (the industry) it will just weaken him (through court fees). If he really wants to fight he should try to concoct a bill that WILL pass constitutional muster, not one that has been tried before and failed.

@johnnygamer

Harder for parents to figure out, or even realize that there is anything called E, M, or whatever. (Why the game industry didn’t just use R, PG, etc to help parents out I’ll never know)

And that is just untrue, it doesn't just say M. It says M but also 17+ on the back cover of the box. When you don't know what 17+ means, you shouldn't even be a parent. So a parent can't say it is harder to figure out.

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp

See? It even says 10+ on the E rating. So you can't even claim it is hard to understand the letters when it also shows the age.

Hey, while we're at it. Let's never, ever let our children know about war, criminals, or violent crimes for that matter. Let's grow them all up so we can cultivate a society of blissfully ignorant people who truly believes everything around them is loving, caring and safe. A place where war doesn't exist. Murders never happen, people never die.

So when they hit a certain age, reality smacks them in the face with a 2-ton hammer and everything they've ever known is a lie.

...Just like the cake. (Sorry, immature impulse)

The games I am most likely to be playing are:

1. World of Warcraft
2. Metroid Prime 3
3. Super Mario Galaxy
4. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
5. Super Smash Bothers Brawl
6. NEW Super Mario Brothers
7. Pokemon Diamond
8. Pikman 1 & 2
9. Starcraft
10. Diablo 2

... yes, there is a theme, I guess, to what I play. I look for games I think are fun and challenging to play. And, as an adult, I have no worries about the ratings... I just find the majority of the M rated games as really lacking in.... gameplay. There are some which are good (I do like God of War, the GTA's are interesting enough)... but since my 2nd PS2 died, I've not motivated myself to replace it (yet again)... (I've had horrible experiences with the supposed "quality" of Sony products)

Of the ones I listed, most of them would be rated E or T. Yet... these kinds of laws would even often like to make such blanket generalizations to even condemn the kinds of games *I* like to play... which is beyond ironic, it is plain old-fashioned stupidity.

So the ESRB is not useless because she thinks that 17 years old are too young to get the game???

[...] For more information: GamePolitics.com [...]

[...] Tomorrow the Massachusetts legislature will discuss a bill that would make it illegal for minors to buy video games deemed too violent by the state (not through ESRB ratings such as M or AO). No similar law exists for movies, music or books. House Bill 1423 is dubbed a “games-as-porn” bill because the rationale used to prevent minors from buying violent video games is the same used on porn. The original bill was drafted by Boston Mayor Thomas Menino (pictured) with assistance from Jack Thompson and legislative sponsor Rep. Linda Dorcena Forry (D). [...]

M games and Toys R Us.

If anything sums up how the ESRB is broken, it is the fact that Toys R Us - a kids store, sells Grand Theft Auto, an M game.

It sells DVDs too, but no R rated ones, but wouldn't you think it crazy if they sold SAW at Toys R Us?

That shows the disconnect between the industry's and maybe even society's perception of these games.

They are still considered just games - like toys - and not a new artistic medium that sometimes is for adults.

It also shows the unwilliness of stores to not sell a game like GTA even though it should not be in a kid's toy store. It just makes too much money.

The industry needs to either be willing to suck it up and not sell GTA in toy stores, or just be ready to battle against whatever laws come its way.

My bet is battling these laws is more cost effective than taking GTA out of toys r us.

In response to Xlorep Darkhelm: I'm not sure why you Nintendo fanboys come in here bashing sony. That has nothing to do with this argument. I have serious worries about a 32 year old who prefers pokemon to all other games on the market. SERIOUS WORRIES. And speaking of a poorly constructed system, does anyones NES 72 Pin connector still work? Or did they corrode after about 2 years?

@johnnygame

If anything sums up how the ESRB is broken, it is the fact that Toys R Us - a kids store, sells Grand Theft Auto, an M game.

That sounds like you have a gripe against Toys 'R' Us' practices as a business, more than anything else. Each company does have the ability to make the decision as to what that company does or does not sell. A law banning M rated games would remove that option, needlessly.

That said, look at Wal*Mart... The stores I've been in, the M rated games are locked up and require someone to get a key to unlock and then takes the game to the counter for you to buy. However, the R rated movies don't even remotely have that same level of "security".

@Xlorep DarkHelm

That is true, but then the games rated BELOW Mature are stored there along with those rated Mature and above. I'm not sure if this is the real reason, but I think they're kept there to prevent the games from being stolen.

Again, not sure about that.

>How is the ESRB broken if Toys ‘R Us sells M rated games?

If Toys R Us sold R rated DVDs, people would complain.

They sell M games, nobody complains. Obviously people are not aware of the ESRB ratings or don't understand them.

>That said, look at Wal*Mart… The stores I’ve been in, the M rated games are locked up and require someone to get a key to unlock and then takes the game to the counter for you to buy. However, the R rated movies don’t even remotely have that same level of “security”.

Probably because people get that R DVDs aren't for kids, whereas with games, people think all games are for kids, don't get that M rated games are not for kids and thus the store needs to have further measures.

>You’d have to be living under a rock to not know GTA isn’t a kids game.

I think you assume too much about how much in touch parents are with game news. Most parents (unfortunately) still look at games and game systems as being toys. That's the main problem.

>For example, you say society doesn’t like porn. Really?

Yeah, I really meant society doesn't like porn for kids. And thus you won't find porn in toys r us.

>You really can’t compare video games to something like drunk driving or even dangerous toys.

Correct, you can't compare them. But they are the same thing, something parent's don't want their kids around. And I don't mean all video games, I mean ultra violent M games.

>It says “M 17+” well if it says “17+” maybe your 9 year old shouldn’t play it. But most parents aren’t that interested in checking.

I think it isn't that they are interested in checking. They don't even realize they need to. It is a video game. It is sold in Toys R Us. Why wouldn't it be for kids?

>Wal-Mart could sell hardcore porn if it wanted and the MPAA would have no say. Wal-Mart just chooses for their own practices to not do so.

No, it is because their customer's would get upset if they did. That TRU can sell an M rated game in a kid's store, shows that people are not getting what the rating means. If it was an R DVD, they would.


>Video games are a MEDIUM, like newspapers, magazines, television, movies, paintings, books etc. They should be regulated in that regard. The mistake is that the violent video game crowd don’t want to regulate it as a media they want to regulate it in the same fashion as dangerous toys.

Agreed, but here is the problem. As a medium, it is a medium that is something that is very connected to kids. I would argue video games are part of kids lives much more than newspapers, magazines, books and even tv and movies. So I think you can't just wave your hands at people looking to regulate things and say "free speech, anything goes", you have to figure out how to allow freedom of expression and freedom of business, but still get to a point where people understand that having an M game sold in a kid's toy store like Toys R Us just ain't right.

@johnnygame

Also -- note. Comic Book stores sell Manga.... *adult themed Manga* or Graphic Novels alongside comics that are obviously more intended for children. Comics have been something considered just for kids too. Yet..... regulation never happened for them. Rather, the comics industry effectively neutered itself for decades before finally throwing off the self-imposed shackles. Check out Dr Fredrick Wertham, and the Comics Code Authority sometimes. More than any other medium.... COMICS have the most direct correlation to what Video Games are treated as now.

@johnnygame

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Toys 'R Us (at least the one near me) sells PG-13 movies. Does that mean those are for kids? I've seen some PG-13 that I wouldn't want an 8 year old seeing. Shouldn't the same logic apply? If they sell it they must be advertising to kids of all ages.

I will agree that it's somewhat illogical to sell 17+ games but not 17+ movies. But that isn't the ESRB's fault, that's Toys 'R Us deciding they make enough money off M rated sales to justify the sale.

What is your solution? More education of the public? Cool, I'm all for that. But it doesn't work. People aren't interested in the industry telling them what the reality is. Every time that gets tried the politicos and media just rant and rave about "protecting the children" and "corrupt industry."

Simply put its too easy for parents to blame the big bad video game industry for even MAKING GTAIV and BioShock than for saying "Gee...maybe this is kind of like movies, there are some that are for kids and some that aren't"

And I'm sorry but it's usually REALLY obvious (aside from once again BIG ASS rating box) to tell when a game is for kids and when it isn't. You said you didn't think a parent who last played pong could tell the difference between Super Mario Galaxy and GTA in regards to appropriateness...I beg to differ:

Super Mario Galaxy boxart: http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/super-mario-galaxy-...
(note the size of the rating box compared to the rating on a movie)

Grand Theft Auto IV boxart:
http://static.gamecrazy.com/images/games/boxart/11002.jpg
(Again not the size and obviousness of the rating box)

You're trying to tell me it isn't pretty obvious that one of those games is significantly more tame than the other? Plus, when a ratings box is that obvious whether it's sold and Toys 'R Us or Gamestop I gotta chalk it up to willful ignorance.

Plus, consider this, if you are right and the vast amount of people connect games with kids it won't matter where it is sold.

If, as you argue, games = kids to most people then:

Games sold at ANY store will = kids. Gamestop = Game Store games = kids, therefore Gamestop = kids store

So you have a Catch 22. Everywhere games are sold are "kids stores" because games = kids. It isn't the store selling that's the problem it's the perception of the product

[...] * Have i mentioned lately how glad I am to not live in Massachusetts anymore? The Mass legislature is going to consider a bill to make it illegal to sell M/AO rated games to minors. Glad you got that budget situation worked out there. [...]

I love that the Feds, state and local want to push legilation big time on the industry. Now is it me or am I just being a wishful thinker, that the video game industry regulates itself rather well?

This is what people who are into politics call a McGuffin, something to distract you from a real problem.

@Aliasalpha

I remember that all too vividly. I was listening to a radio show and this woman called in screaming about how Jackson should be sued for deliberately titling his movie that.

When told that it was the name of the book she started ranting that Tolkien should be sued then...

She hung up when they mentioned that the book was published in the 1950's, 20 years before the WTC was even built and that Tolkien himself died in the 70's, 30 years before 9-11.

Laughed my ass off for about 20 minutes

Children aged 17 and under should not be sold this stuff, so they are not getting into the hands of 9- and 10-year-olds.

The thing is that for most of the minors that are getting their hands on mature rated games are not going to their local game store and purchasing the title with their money. If this is the case, where do these kids get these games? Answer: their parents. When will we stop looking for people to blame and realize that the person to blame is ourselves. I work for a national retailer that sells video games and I see it everyday. The kid comes up to the parent with a game and says to his mommy or daddy, "Can I get this game. I'll do extra chores." or something along those lines. and for the most part the parent buys that game for his/her son/daughter. Is it the fault of the game maker or publisher that followed the guidelines they are required to followed that that game is in the hands of that minor. No. The parents need to start taking responsibility for their poor decisions and for what their kids play. If they don't know enough about the rating system or a specific game, ask a sales associate. Educate yourselves and stop waiting to have everything handed to you. That isn't how the world works. I am a gamer and I'm tired of seeing these ridiculous legislations, or stories of "I did it 'cause I saw it in a video game." I'm sorry for the rant but it needed to be said.

Okay, let me get this straight...

Another cocky dumbass thinking they can restrict video game flow, eh? Well, this is A-fucking-merica. The land of the fucking over of asswipes who think that because they're "Oh so hoity toity", they can say "Hey, punk-ass motherfucker, your only sixteen. What's that? You say you don't give a fuck? Well, I ain't lettin' you get this T-rated game for... Sexual Content, Use of Alchohol, Use of Tobacco, Crude Humor, Mild Fantasy Violence (WTFH?!?!?), and Mild Blood. What's that? Your gonna bust a cap in my WHAT???"

I STRONGLY suggest these motherfucking politicians rub their two tiny little combined I.Q. points together and see if they can't start a fire.

[...] Lisa sent me this link: Massachusetts Will Consider Video Game Legislation This Week. I had heard abut this on the news, and it really pissed me off. [...]

I'm tired of f***ing politicions ragging on videogames all the time!!! I think the only reason their doing this is because they just couldn't beat pacman or something like that!!! Those f***ing fags!!!