"retailers must be reassured, in writing, that the rating given the game is accurate and that there is no hidden or modifiable content in the game."

As a Software Engineer, I can say, with near certainty, that it is impossible to make a game, or any program, without modifiable content. All programs are modifiable. Asking for unmodifiable programs is the same as asking for uncrackable DRM. It's not gonna happen, EVER.

Whatever happened to parents saying "you can't have that?" I asked for Contra: Hard Corps for Christmas. Instead I got Sparkster and an explanation that "I don't want you playing that other game."

@ Zerdash

Ain't that the truth. If only we had a videogames equivalent of Captain Planet we could summon.

Our powers combined...!

Huh...the JT text didn't show. Oh well, you wouldn't understand what the hell he was saying anyway...

Man! The last time I upgraded my computer was for San Andreas... I guess I will have to spend some more when it comes out for the PC!! :-)

@Monkeythumbs

FPS!

RPG!

Rhythm!

Platform!

MMO!

By your powers combined, I am Captain Gamer!

Go Gamer!

I pre-paid my copy weeks ago, I just need to pick it up on the release. So kindly fuck off PTC.

"...the Grand Theft Auto series has lowered the bar for appalling video game content..."

Technically speaking haven't they raised the bar. After all aren't those games considered to be the new standard for appalling games.

"... but they can legally sell video games to children that contain pornographic content or that teach children how to kill"

You know what I fine really funny here is that, in the state of Pennsylvania at least, you can start hunting at the age of twelve. In fact PA has Mentored Youth Hunting Program were they are essentially encouraging people to teach children how to kill things using guns. Come on people where is the moral outrage.

"We must demand that retailers do their part to keep socially irresponsible games like Grand Theft Auto IV: Liberty City out of the hands of children. Please take action today. And please share this email with every concerned adult you know."

Because God forbid that parents should ever have to pay attention to the things that their kids are doing.

I think that everyone should stop preaching to the choir, and leave a a well considered and reasonable comment on that blog. Last time i checked, There weren't any comments a t all. They may ignore one or two, but's let's leave dozens on there. Not immature ones, but calmly and rationally explaining their ignorance to them.

"Since the first version was released in 1997, the Grand Theft Auto series has lowered the bar for appalling video game content…"

Is that a compliment?

This is also the same group that refuses to condemn FOX News for knowingly and intentionally lying to and deceiving Parents and other consumers regarding the contents of Mass Effect.

Apparently, in the PTC's own version of "morality", lies and deceit are acceptable practices. I guess "modified" news stories by tabloid trash organizations purporting to be news media are good sources for Parents to obtain "modified" content information regarding various products.

C'mon PTC, WHERE WERE YOU WHEN FOX NEWS WAS KNOWINGLY AND INTENTIONALLY LYING TO AND DECEIVING PARENTS?!

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

[...] wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptWith the Grand Theft Auto IV launch less than a week away, the expected wave of anti-GTA publicity continues with an alert issued by watchdog group the Parents Television Council. According to PTC president Tim Winter: Since the first version was released in 1997, the Grand Theft Auto series has lowered the bar for appalling video game content… In past versions, players could re-enact having sex with a prostitute, beating her bloody, taking her money and running her over with a car; shooting at police officers; and, by using a code easily accessible on many internet sites, having a realistic sexual encounter on screen — complete with audio commentary. [...]

"Since its founding in 1995, the Parents Television Council has considerably lowered the bar for encouraging thoughtful parental responsibility and relies on soundbites, unproven hyperbole, magniloquent press releases, baseless accusations known not to be grounded in facts along with unproven theories to spread its mission of fear mongering with topics its founding members do not approve of..."

Someone should go on that blog and point out all the lies in that "article."

Urging retailers not to stock a game that's intended for adults?

Should they also not carry books by Thomas Harris or Stephen King?

How about R-rated movies? Music with naughty words?

I guess all retailers should just stick to children's books and Disney videos. But not Warner Bros cartoons because those are too violent.

"We urgently need you to take action today to keep this brutally violent video game out of the hands of children."

You shouldn't have to urge parents to keep inappropriate media away from their kids, you should EXPECT them to.

"The Grand Theft Auto games include constant graphic violence and sexual situations."

Constant sexual situations? Maybe if you went to the trouble of altering the game so that you could view the hot coffee content, you could have a short sexual situation...but constant? Don't make me laugh.

"In past versions, players could re-enact having sex with a prostitute, beating her bloody"

A prostitute could get into the car and it would bounce up and down. That's a far cry from re-enacting sex, and as far as I recall, the character models were not bloody after being shot.

"by using a code easily accessible on many internet sites, having a realistic sexual encounter on screen"

It was a little more than just a code. Do they think you just type in a series buttons and it appears in front of you? You had to go to some lengths to unlock the content, and if you were doing that, then you were well aware of what you were going to see. No kid ever saw this content by mistake, any kid that did see it wanted to and took steps to see it.

"This modification in the 2005 game was not disclosed to the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB) when they classified the game M, which carried a suggested age of 17 and up for purchase."

If you played the game as it was supposed to be played and did not tinker with it, then it deserved it's M rating. If I change my copy of the bible by pasting in pornographic pictures, can I demand it be re-rated?

"The PTC is asking its members to call on all major retailers:

1) To reconsider any decisions to sell Grand Theft Auto IV: Liberty City."

How dare they?! Can you imagine the reaction if I began a campaign calling on retailers to not sell religious books because they offended me?

"retailers must be reassured, in writing, that the rating given the game is accurate and that there is no hidden or modifiable content in the game."

The original rating WAS accurate...

"3) To insist that the game not be displayed in view of minors
4) And finally, to call on retailers not to not market this video game to children."
For christ's sake, what do they expect? That all shops will build a little GTA IV booth at the back of the shop and hire a bouncer to make sure only adults go in and see the box? If I put up a sign for beers in my off-licence window and a kid sees the sign, am I marketing alcohol to kids? This is ridiculous.

"Legally, stores can not sell children pornographic magazines or handguns – but they can legally sell video games to children that contain pornographic content or that teach children how to kill."

Such horseshit... Porn magazines and handguns are not for kids, for obvious reasons. GTA IV may not be appropriate for kids but it does NOT harm them, does NOT contain pornographic content (unless you go to steps to put it there) and definitely does not teach them how to kill. A typical episode of the Sopranos contains stronger violence/adult content than GTA.

"Lt. Col. Dave Grossman , a West Point psychology professor, Professor of Military Science, and an Army Ranger stated:

"Certain types of these (video) games are actually killing simulators, and they teach our kids to kill in much the same say the astronauts on Apollo 11 learned how to fly to the moon without ever leaving the ground... ""

ROFL! The astronauts trained in REAL simulators! You know, with actual copies of the controls they would be using when piloting. They didn't use Dual Shock playstation controllers to train on.

"All you have to do is see what kids are being scripted to do (on the video games) to get the high scores, and you know that in a very short period of time, their dark fantasies are going to become your tragic realities.”

To get higher scores I push the buttons on the controller in the right order at the right time. I don't pick up a real gun. Any kid's dark fantasies are not inspired by video games, but by real life bullying, social problems and mental instability.

"We must demand that retailers do their part to keep socially irresponsible games like Grand Theft Auto IV: Liberty City out of the hands of children."

We must demand that you parents show a little fucking responsibility and do it yourself. It's not the retailers job to look after your children, it's yours.

Has it really only been 11 years since the first GTA? It feels like longer for some reason.

okay, while demanding no modding, how about demanding anti-piracy measures that work? what's that? oh people can work around all the anti-piracy tech out there? hmmmm, okay how about just no modding? what's that? there's no way to keep people from modding a game? Well we should make that a priority! I mean we can't have people being creative afterall...

Whatever happened to parents saying “you can’t have that?” I asked for Contra: Hard Corps for Christmas. Instead I got Sparkster and an explanation that “I don’t want you playing that other game.”

Your parents are great. Sparkster is awesome.

@Stranger Danger
I think you're confusing the PTC with Eliot Spitzer.

I loved grand theft auto.

so f&ck you up the wrong un.

God I feel better for saying that.

Well... here we go.

"In past versions, players could re-enact having sex with a prostitute, beating her bloody, taking her money and running her over with a car; shooting at police officers; and, by using a code easily accessible on many internet sites, having a realistic sexual encounter on screen — complete with audio commentary."

Pardon my ignorance but was any of this actually possible in the game? What little I have seen of GTA has not been hugely realistic as far as sex and violence goes. The blood splatters on walls in Half life and Portal were graphically more unsettling to me than what little I've seen of GTA.

Does GTA actually show someone bleeding and battered when you beat them up? Is there actually any part where you see someone wearing less than their underwear?

"..Wants no Modifiable Content"

Drop. Dead. You. Bastards.

Buckle up- its gonna be a CRAZY few months ahead. I can't wait for the rampant stupidity the NIMF, JT, Fox News, NYPost, Mr. Vaz, the UK media, etc. will spew out. Lets not forget the that this is an election year, too!

"In past versions, players could re-enact having sex with a prostitute, beating her bloody, taking her money and running her over with a car; shooting at police officers"

No, I don't have a degree in English, but don't you have to actually do something before you can re-enact it? Namely in real life.

If people are able to re-enact any of this and aren't playing GTA from jail, well...society has bigger problems than a new video game.

@ Steve
Technically, I think they can use the word re-enact because people do those things in real life, so the game is providing a re-enactment of those events. Still, I see your point. Simulate would be a better word.

Once it's out on to the public the people can do what ever the hell they want to do with it. They want to add stuff in let them. It's not going to get worse I don't care what PTC says.

It's a pretty good thing that the PTC is irrelevant.

What a bunch of nancies. For all that blustering about morality and how kids should go outside or read a book instead of playing games, they themselves are probably the most unread and unfit people imaginable.

They probably can't remember the last time they opened a book that wasn't written by Dave Grossman, the Bible, or on the NY Times bestseller list. Unless it was recommended by Oprah. They probably couldn't tell Kant's deontological ethics from Mill's utilitarianism; let alone be able to comprehend Nietzsche.

After they're done bashing video games, they'll probably go home and feed their kids KD and spaghetti with ketchup, or some other crap because they're too lazy to prepare a decent meal/spent all their time saving children everywhere from the evil video games.

It would doubly suck for the kid if they were the type to not let little Johnny play little league because he might get 'hurt'; or try for the football team because it's 'too violent'.

What a bunch of lazy, illiterate morons.

lets face it - you knew this was coming

"Dear Parents Television Council,

As a parent, I am become more and more concerned with the level of ignorance being displayed in the news articles on your website. It seems to me that very little research, if any, goes into some of the slanderous and libel articles that are posted on your website. For example, one of the latest post on your website titled "GRAND THEFT AUTO - PTC ALERT" has made me lose all trust in your ability to properly report on subjects. When this "hot coffee" thing came out for that other GTA game, like any concerned parent, I learned what the issue was and how it could affect me and my children. What I found out however is that this "hot coffee" thing was what is referred to as a "mod". After a little more research into what a mod exactly means I came to a rather startling conclusion: the content talked about in this "hot coffee" thing wasn't playable in the original game at all, and in fact someone had to modify the games original files in order to make it even work.
To say the least, I was a little surprised. How could the media and those who are supposed to be thoughtful, analytical individuals like Mr.Timothy Winter have made such a huge mistake? I thought maybe you simply wanted to get the news out fast, and some details got missed in translation. It happens, so I wasn't too concerned. But then I also saw this on your website today: "...and, by using a code easily accessible on many internet sites, having a realistic sexual encounter on screen — complete with audio commentary." As you can imagine, I was a bit confused by this. Whenever I heard this "code" thing I always thought of it as a "cheat code". I figured I probably just didn't understand the meaning entirely, so I went and did some more research on "codes" in games. After awhile, I noticed I wasn't wrong, in fact I understood the concept entirely. How is it possible that I, a parent of 2, who never grew up on video games could understand a concept such a modding and cheat codes with only a few hours of research but an organization such as yourself is still ignorant about these issues years later?
I have to say, I am more than a little distressed by this. If you could please email me back and let me know how your organization plans on improving the education of those responsible for these articles, such as Mr.Timothy Winter who signed the article, I would be thankful.

Sincerely,
A concerned parent"

Just sent that to the PTC in an email. I don't expect a response. :)

Oh the hilarity of it all. They blocked outside comments. My god I hate the Parent's Television Council.

@ Mech

Very nice.

The PTC just makes me sick. Bunch of hypocrites.

How would one make a game that one is unable to mod?

MMORPG?

As a game programmer, it is a simple task to modify a game with or without the developer's hand. Even if Rockstar went out of their way to make a game unmodifiable, I could still alter the memory the game is loaded into and make it do what I want with some work and time. This is another example of people bitching about things they don't understand. We better make sure they don't have fireplaces in their houses so they don't burn themselves... FIRE BAD!

The fact that GTA4 is capable of injecting a billion or so dollars into the economy has no affect on you right PTC?

You already broke television's back, 3/4 of the shows on Disney and Nickelodeon are shit....you are not going to have your way with GTA4, i will not have Happy Disney Auto staring the cast of High School Musical just because its more moral to the damn kids, you know why? GTA aint for people under the age of 18... you ambulance chasing, creativity breaking, money sapping r-tards.

You can't post on the blog, it is restricted, just email PTC instead.

A game rated for play to people over the age 17 not suitable for kids? get out of town! Whats next? Movies with ratings for people over 17 as well.....

"Or, if retailers do choose to stock the game, PTC suggest that it be displayed where minors will not see it. "

OMFGROFLBBQ

Kid: Do you have GTA 4?

Shop Owner: Curses, how did he figure out that it had been released? I hid it so well...

Did the PTC write any books on amazon? Just curious. ;P

EVERY game is modifiable. Even if you compress and encrypt the data, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, is going to crack the encryption.

GTA games are just typically a lot easier to modify than others, due to the way data is stored.

Sean asks:

“Since the first version was released in 1997, the Grand Theft Auto series has lowered the bar for appalling video game content…”

Is that a compliment?
------------------------

Actually, as phrased, it is. Whoever wrote this didn't know what they were writing. It should be "raised the bar for appalling video game content," or conversely "lowered the bar for praiseworthy video game content" or something similar.

Let's see...

1. "All playable content." The ESRB won't go through an entire game to get at ALL the content. There's just too much. Companies do give them the worst parts of their games... and it's worked so far.

Tell you what. How about the ESRB rate the internet? There's porn and violence in that. I'm sure they'd be happy to give the internet an AO rating. And what's worse is that this comment was made originally by e-mail and is now on a website. And since the internet should be given an AO rating (in the argument that it's the entire content that matters), then these people shouldn't be using e-mail and websites to detract other items with just M ratings.

Oh, but there's controls to prevent kids from getting to sites they shouldn't get to. Well guess what! That's right, consoles have similar safeguards.

2. Hot Coffee. Wasn't accessable in the straight game. The mod community just focused attention to it. The ESRB did respond rather timely with the news. And going back to the main subject line of that paragraph, Hot Coffee didn't fall under "all playable content."

3. Modifiable content. They must be joking. They should probably attack The Sims for being such a modifiable game. It's not too difficult to make skins to have Sims appear to be completely naked.

4. Hidden content. You heard it here first! They want to get rid of unlockable content! After all, that stuff is hidden. Oh and game secrets. Wave bye-bye to them. Give me a break.

5. Killing simulators. Professor. Army Ranger. I wonder if he's aware of the game released by the US Army available for download on many sites.

6. This e-mail is far away from the main site's goal. It' s not to help Christians. It's to hurt anyone who doesn't share the group's moral standings.

From this video that I have have seen, there is no sex with prostitutes. Just two people making a car go up and down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSjl0_jJyb0&NR=1 {might not be okay for young kids.}
According to them, this is how everyone was born. By coming out of the car's exhaust pipe. Maybe that is how come so man people have become so stupid.

Geez!! It's almost as if the PTC thinks of video games as being like heroin. :O

@Falcon

While I agree with the overall message, I believe that any comparison, good or bad, between real guns and VG guns is detrimental to the cause. For one thing, other than the fact that they are both representative of the idea of a gun, one can actually kill people the other can't. And for another, learning how to handle one properly, whether or not you own one, can save lives, while using a VG gun will do no such thing.

Where is the ECA's counter statement?

"realistic sexual encounter on screen — complete with audio commentary."

Who wants to do the commentary with me I'll started.

See right there see that car shake? I hated that in GTA3 I was loosing money as I looked for a quiet spot. Also that shocks sound bad on the car.

1:Hot Coffee was a mod. You can not stop people from modding. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE.
2:To call something that looks like two marshmellows grinding"realistic sexual imagery" is sorta sad.
3:Constant Violence and Sex????? When? With who? All sexual content is optional, and as for violence, you an do other stuff. THAT'S WHY IT'S POPULAR. Not because you can womp on hookers, but because of the sweet sweet virtual freedom!!!! My favorite aspect of the GTA games is the driving. I hardly played through the story except to unlock new parts of the map tp drive in.
4:Dave Grossman has little evidence to support his claims. It's currently simple conjecturing. This will get you nowhere.
5:Drug Content. Anyone over the age of 7 who dosen't know not to fuck around with chemical substances NEEDS TO LEARN THIS! That's something to learn early on. Also, in San Andreas, crack dealers were some of the *enemy* characters and were portrayed like little weasely, jittery freaks. If you try to say drug use was glorified, you'll just prove how clueless you are.
6:Stop trying to be the country's parent. Not all people want to raise their kids in a fragile fairy land.
7:Stop misrepresenting things! People trust you, and lying to them is far more unethical then shooting a pixelized hooker!
8:Get a more productive hobby. Seriously.


END POORLY ORGANIZED RANT.

I always hate it when these nut jobs jump onto an issue I totally agree with and weigh it down with religious, alarmist, unfounded, and ignorant BS.

Sh*t,is GTA getting scrutinized left right and center.Could any of you name a LIBERTARIAN who's ever lambasted video games?If you can name even one,I'll be shocked.

go here and submit your warning.....just remove the text and tell them to ignore the PTC



https://www.parentstv.org/ptc/action/gta/main.asp

hahahahahaa, make it unmodifiable. They couldn't do it if they wanted to and we all know it's true.

Fucking hell that wasn't R*'s fault it was Fucking 3d parties how hard is that Fucking concept

@Buckeye531

Right.

Man, you can count on your hand the number of groups more socially irrelevant/out of touch that the PTC.

[...] As expected, the upcoming release of Grand Theft Auto IV has seen the scaremongers and crybabies of the world come out in full force to stamp their little feet in protest. Once again, it falls to the Parents Television Council to issue one of its “alerts” to let concerned civilians know that “porn and gratuitous violence through a videogame” is on the way. Since the first version was released in 1997, the Grand Theft Auto series has lowered the bar for appalling video game content. And now, the game’s fourth installment, Grand Theft Auto IV: Liberty City, is set for release April 29th. We urgently need you to take action today to keep this brutally violent video game out of the hands of children. [...]

I have no problem with it being in a back room or behind a counter, but good luck stopping modders.

Hehehe

Next week should be fun..

Demontestament Says:
"GTA is not for kids, cannot be bought by kids and if the parent is responsible enough, should not be played by kids."

Speak for yourself. If I think my kid can handle GTA IV I get to make that decision and I can be perfectly responsible while doing it. I don't know who some people think they are trying to judge me for raising MY kid in the way I see fit. I don't understand why other gamers seem to think that they have the right to decide what games are appropriate for people they've never met. That kind of thing is exactly why we're railing against the PTC and ESRB here.

Now I'm seeing people here say that Hot Coffee was a mod. It WASN'T! It was hidden content, included in the game disc. As such it was not a mod. Modders merely uncovered it and made it available to the general public - for which they should be PRAISED, not vilified. No modder ever forced anyone to use the Hot Coffee mod. People had to actively seek out the program to unlock it. No innocent kid was ever harmed by the hidden Hot Coffee content. If they saw it they probably went looking for it.

By the way, I downloaded the mod that allowed me to see it and I saw it - it was entirely lame. In my opinion the only reason it got so much press was that assclowns like the PTC hyped the heck out of it. The only person ever hurt by the Hot Coffee game content was the poor sod who programmed it, who probably got fired when his bosses found out about it. If the world made any sense at all nudity and sex, which are not wrong, would not have any stigma associated with them and we'd see them in movies and games all the time. In a sane world sex would be valued for the great and healthy thing it is, not made to look dirty or unwholesome. I worry about society when we bring up people to regard our species' only means of long term survival (i.e. sex) as immoral.

When they say Hot Coffee was "easily accessible", it makes me wish someone would hurry up and an invent a way for me to stab people in the face over the internet.

I tried to use a GameShark to view the disabled content, even though I had a guide on how to do it, I still couldn't get it to work. I had to settle for watching some YouTube video to see what all the fuss was about, and was disappointed that I had wasted 12 minutes of my time on something so stupid and blown out of proportion.

News Flash: They disabled that content for a good reason. Not because it was hypersexual... because IT WAS LAAAAAAAME. Jeesh, who didn't just skip the "cold coffee" cutscene right away, even those were terrible.

I never understood why these groups were so up in arms about Hot Coffee when the normal game let you run around in a gimp suit and assault people with a giant purple dildo. Somehow that's fine for their kids, but content that requires you to mod your game just to play a dry-humping mini-game is apparently the end of the world as we know it? It just doesn't add up.

@Shoehorn O’Plenty
You sir are awesome!

audio commentary?
like John Madden?

@G-Meister:

you win the internets

@Wookie

Yeah well I do have a problem with it GTA isn't porn, far from it

If these idiots really cared about improving society then they would actually listen to the suggestions of other people which they don't, showing that they only care about purging any thing from society that doesn't fit their puritanical views. And using the 'Pr0wT3xt T3h ChE3LD3reN' cause as an excuse.

Ah, thus comes the power of MaxScript (or any similar scripting language) get a goos scripter, and you can mod any game.

[...] May 1, 2008 Posted by Lumpmoose in games. Tags: games, grand theft auto, jack thompson, new york trackback Just to put a bow on my last post, the New York Times has written a very positive review of GrandTheft Auto IV, focusing on the meticulous reproduction of the sights and culture of New York City. It makes me wonder: could the controversy surrounding GTA’s release be defused before it starts merely because the game is so good and none of the anti-parent advocates can stop playing themselves? The issue may, unfortunately, depend on this guy: [...]