Strange...if I murder a real person...the game doesn't reward me! I thought this goddamn game rewarded violence!

Reminder:Psychology defines violence as the *intentional harm of another human being*, therefore a videogame cannot be "violent". It's the same reason we can't call it violence when a three year old wrestles a teddybear, or when a bunch of kids shoot each other with squirt guns.

/facepalm

Calgary isn't really a "small town". 1,000,000 people and growing. How do I know? Well, I live there.

Anyways, The Sun is probably the worst newspaper in the city in my opinion. Poorly written, extremely one-sided articles, very little journalistic merit...probably more like a tabloid.

The people who blame GTA for their crimes are probably the ones who read The Sun.

lack of consequences???? YOU GET ARRESTED FOR KILLING. How is that a "lack of consequences"????

It really is like talking to a brick wall. They just recycle the same talking points over and over again.

As a Canadian, let me be the first to apologize for this supposed expert opinion in relation to videogames.

I weep for humanity.

[...] wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptA spokesman for the police department in Calgary has expressed “grave concern” over the impending release of Grand Theft Auto IV. According to a report in today’s Calgary Sun: City cops are warning parents to be careful about exposing children to video game violence, saying it’s a possible training ground for criminal endeavours. [...]

"From the Calgary Police Service perspective, we see these types of video games as a grave concern… Because of the lack of consequences and even reward — (youth) don’t understand the impact violence can have."

I don't know what kind of fantasy land these people are living in where being shot at and arrested is some kind of "reward."

"Because of the lack of consequences and even reward —"

No, No, FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, [b]NO!![/b]

There is no 'reward' for it. Wanted stars are not 'points.' GTA has no 'scores.' It has tallies of what's gone on, but no 'points.'

"In some cases, those very games may be training grounds for people to commit criminal activity."

Should we even get into this AGAIN?

Personally I tend to disregard police sentiments on things such as this.
I know and work with a lot of them and they tend to get very strong views on ANYTHING that they perceive as possibly making their jobs harder.

Not that they aren't good people, just a little blinkered, and understandably so in a high-risk occupation.

@Davcube

Actually, I discovered something very interesting in Vice City, apparantly under your stats is your current score. Every time you commit a crime, your score goes down. Every time you do something good, like a vigilante mission, your score goes up. So apparantly GTA does give you points, except its for doing good things.

In the end its the same song sung by all the extremists. They will continue to do so untill either one of three things happen:

1- something else becomes the scapegoat and an easy target for violence.
2-Video Game companies stand up and say enough is enough, its free speech damnit, eff off.
3-They win.

Im actually hoping for one of the first two >_

*Facepalm* Aw jeez >.

A team of peer reviewed, nuetrally funded, and well standing behavioral psychologists say video game violence is a grave concern to society? No? Well then, I guess I'll add this to the pile of unqualified opinions that are worthless to me. Like Ben Stien's take on evolution and Fox News' opinion on Mass Effect.

Ya know ever since I donned the magical black paint and tinfoil hat of the black sheeple..... the herd just keeps sucking more and more...


They want to blame media from rap to fictionalized idolization to games even guns its everything but the real statistical possibility of a certain percentage of any population to be stupid, and how do they wish to counter stupidity not with truth not with fact not even with kindness they what to use the black boot of fascism to reduce freedom's of the populace so they don't have to work as hard.

I swear I am almost ready to trade in my coat o paint and tinfoil hat to a wolfs skin and a sniper rifle......

I just want to see the massive rise in teen crime that occurs after this game is released.

Oh. Wait. That's right, there won't be one. Just like there wasn't after every other grand theft auto game has been released.

As a Calgarian, I'm ashamed and apologize for this article in and of itself -.-;

Oops, forgot this point.

"we see these types of video games as a grave concern"

The REAL concern regarding this issue (or non-issue, as it should be) is that it is fostering an environment where authority figures will actually believe that the game causes people to be violent. What this will lead to, is criminals trying the "Video games made me do it your honour" defence, championed by the great Jack Thompson. Instead of punishing a criminal for what they did, it's going to create massive burdens on courts, having to rope in "specialists" and psychiatrists to see if the person was actually affected by the games. It will create an unfair and stupid stigma for the game creators, as well as leading to baseless lawsuits against them (See Devin Moore, Paducah, Codey Posey, et al).

The concern is not that video games will cause violence in young people, but that people will actually start to believe this silly, ill informed and downright incorrect opinion.

It's funny how politicians say that kids are smart enough to get around any protection the parents have set up to prevent them from playing rated M games, yet not tell a difference from fiction and reality.

In my school, we have a pre-school for 2-4 year olds. If the kids hit someone, or act dangerously in any way, we punish them greatly by not letting them do anything. It's like a jail to them, and if these kids can't do nothing, it would be torture to them. Kids know what right from wrong at a very early age. I understand how GTA may effect a 2 year old, but 2 year olds don't play GTA. I can't even get a 4 year old to handle a controller, let alone play a video game.

I have a question. What's with the burst of GTA stories today?

Gotta love all the free advertising.

I tried to post a link, but it never shows up!

I was delighted to assist the Calgary folks in this regard.

Jack Thompson

GP: In your e-mail to them, did you mention how you recently "assisted" the police in Omaha at NIU ?  (i.e., with lawsuits and/or threats of lawsuits...)

Its hilarious how GTA4 is causing all this crap, while so many games with "worse" content get off scott free (or close to it). Where is the outrage over Condemned, Jerhico, God of War, Saint's Row, Gears of War, The Darkness, Prey, Turok, etc?

Ya know, I've just had the oddest epiphany:

A great many politicians and others actually claim that video games, movies, books, TV, etc lead kids to do all sorts of things, including crimes, because, at their young age, they can't tell the difference between right and wrong, reality and fiction, and so on.

Yet, I suspect a great many of those same individuals want extensive sex education and, even further, want certain items such as condoms and birth control, even without the child's Parent's knowledge. Their argument? Kids are old enough and mature enough to have the knowledge and won't see the ability to receive such items as condoms as encouragement to actually have sex.

Now, explain to me how such politicians and such can see kids as being mature enough to know right from wrong in one situation... but not another?

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
P.S. This post isn't meant to claim being against sex ed and such but rather the contrast in the views of maturity and right vs wrong.

Zerodash Says:

April 25th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Its hilarious how GTA4 is causing all this crap, while so many games with “worse” content get off scott free (or close to it). Where is the outrage over Condemned, Jerhico, God of War, Saint’s Row, Gears of War, The Darkness, Prey, Turok, etc?

================================

Zerodash... Apparently, GTA IV is much worse than the sex scene in GoW: Chains of Olympus and the curb stomp in Gears...

Funny how a video game is such a 'grave concern' - but if you go out to You-Tube, or other media sites, you can find incidents galore about 'overzealous' use of tazers against people - even to the point of killing people in Wheelchairs.

Odd that a video game seems to be more of a concern than proper police training.

Now now people, he is just repeating what he has heard other talking heads say. They know nothing of the game as it hasn't been released yet... unless these officers have a modded XBox and BitTorrents running.

Since they don't understand the game, they only know what they are being told. They don't hear us when we speak.

To me, this sounds almost like the Ring (didn't see it, but I read a synopsis). Parents think there are games out there that if you "watch" them, you will try to kill someone. No one has done the match that millions of these games were sold, so the chance that of the hundreds of murders they investigate, they may occasionally find a cross over. However, if these games actually did what they claim, then MILLIONS of kids would be murdering across the country. Infact, I'd make a round guess that around 95% of male kids have played some sort of violent videogame at some point (I wouldn't even try and fix a percentage on girl gamers), just like a large percentage have likely seen a Playboy. It's just kind of part of growing up. And yet, violent crimes seem much more linked with abuse and poverty, but keep getting pinned on games which are not the problem.

Everyone is so busy trying to see the smallest changes in the mind, changes which they don't even understand but can only point out that a change has happened. They don't pull back, look at the big picture. You have a generation that is now around 30 years old raised with these games. The world hasn't changed to a post-appocalyptic nightmare. Why? Why have youth crime rates been steadily dropping since the event of video games? Why are major releases coresponding with drops in crimes? Why does primal scream therapy and hitting a punching bag make you feel better instead of more prone to screaming at people and more prone to hit someone?

How are these huge signs being over looked? These aren't refutations, these aren't arguments. These are facts that need to be looked at by certain key people, the same people that are in power, yet think there is a youth crime wave. We need to tell them it's alright. There isn't a state of emergency. These games have been seeling incredible amounts and those people haven't become violent. The two or three people trying a "Games made me do it" defense are statistically insignificant. If one person out of a hundred did crap, it would be 1%, If one in a thousand, 0.1%, so lets say 3 or 4 in 3 or 4 million (the amount often sold in a few weeks) 0.0001%, and that is just for GTAIII, not SA, not other games.

Let's compare this to something that IS life threatening.
http://www.peanutallergy.com/statistics-and-facts.html
1% (compared to 0.0001%) of adults are allergic to peanuts. It kills about 100 people a year, so you could say that on average a person dies ever four days from this.

However, no one is calling for the ban on peanut butter...

You know, It took me awhile to come to this but after finally getting around to playing Condemned II it really makes me wonder why people focus on GTA? Is it the realism factor? Is it the fact that Condemned is so obviously not for kids that it's easy to avoid? You'd think with all of this press that everyone would know by now if they want GTA or not.

If video games affected people, I could lead my college football team, UCF Knights, to 5 national championships in 7 years, all without leaving CUSA and be undefeated for all 7, and each year beat 3 of the top 5 ranked teams. I'd be the greatest coach ever.

If video games affected people, then I'd be the greatest strategist ever having successfully defended France from the Germans in WW2. Defended Earth from dozens of alien attacks, as well as a few dozen fictional weak countries from their more powerful larger evil neighbors.

nightwng2000
Its more a statistical thing if you flood bunnies with birth control you get less sheeple...but ya I see the point their old enough for sex but god forbid they mature mentally any....

Hey coppers,

why dont you go after the real bad guys with knives and guns harassing the innocent people rather than going all nanny state and tell some lies.

MORE VIOLENCE! NEED MORE VIOLENCE!

@nightwng2000

Wow. That is an interesting observation. Made me think.

I think many of the conservatives who favor banning "violent" games are also against any real sex ed in schools. They'd prefer schools teach abstinence exclusively. Their idea seems to be that kids should be sheltered from any ideas or information that could be morally corrupting.

I think many of the liberals who favor banning "violent" games believe the state knows better than the people, and is better qualified to teach condom use to kids as well as to decide what media is appropriate for them.

If so, it's only the liberal-oriented anti-game activists who are committing the contradiction you've identified. I don't agree with it, but I imagine their response to you might have something to do with external vs. internal influences: Adolescence does not physiologically compel a teen to play violent games, but it does produce a lot of hormones in most teens that compel them to become sexually active (or at least sexually interested).

So, while the conservative says "just repress it all," the liberal says "ban the things you can keep a teen from doing, and control the things they're going to do anyway." In either case, it seems to have little to do with trusting teens to be mature enough to make decisions on their own, or (even sadder) trusting parents to help teens make decisions on their own.

"a possible training ground for criminal endeavours."

*headdesk*

Yeah, because we all become expert carjackers after hitting the "B" button for the 1000th time... And we learn well how to avoid the police, just find the "reduce wanted status" powerup! Those are found, like, everywhere!

You know, once upon a time, things like criminals committing crimes were a grave concern to the Police, now, it seems, they'd rather stay at home and complain about their opinion than actually going out and, you know, catching criminals...

Okay, a lot of you people I'm going to have to disagree with one keypoint.

'GTAIV DOES have consequences for violence'

It really, really doesn't. At least not in a substantial way. When a skilled killer can kill a NPC in the game without being chased down by cops, or even OUTRUN the cops, that isn't exactly a negative consequence, OR something I think the Police force wants people thinking is completely possible. And when they DO get caught, they just bribe their way out of jail after one night - regardless of the degree of their crimes. No probation, no nothing. Is this really 'consequence'?

The point all of you NEED to be focusing on is this ridiculous ideology that gaming has some brainwashing effect on youth - and can get them to do REALLY dumb things, like kill people and try to bribe their way out of jail. Only someone with pre-set mental problems could be that easily swayed by a video game.

But the one thing that this article highlights that I think is important is - PARENTS need to decide what their kids play and really participate/understand what's going on. Don't just buy every game your kid asks for and then get mad at the industry for making said games.

"It really, really doesn’t. At least not in a substantial way. " Ya nothing like the consequences we see in movies.
Like in True Lies at the start of the movie when Arnold kills over 20 people at that party after things go bad and he gets in a van and drives away to go eat supper with his family. Now THAT is a consequence for murder.

Calgary Police: GTA IV a “Grave Concern"

GTA IV a grave concern? Hardly.

A horde of Mongols coming from the east to kill, pillage and rape. A Grave Concern.

The Calgary Police should get back to us when GTA IV starts killing, pillaging and raping.

@ Trent

What would Brian Boitono do?

You know, if they just stopped at:

"Be careful about letting your children play this. This game is not for children, parents should be cautious about letting kids play this game..."

I don't think anyone here would have a problem whatsoever with that. But I guess they feel the need to tack on "...or else little Timmy will become a violent killer..."

I wonder, do the cops REALLY believe that? After all they're the ones with first hand knowledge of how many kids actually commit crimes.

Personally, I'm starting to think they keep trotting out the "...training ground..." crap because they think that's the only way parents will actually care.

"Small town police should work hard on real problems"

Like underage smokers/drinkers, skateboarders, people with a blinker out, uh.. speeders.. uh.. I think I mentioned the blinker.. must be.. something else..

More often than not, IME, Small town cops are overpaid hall monitors looking to pimp the cities bank account with frivolous charges. The fact that they even have something to say in regards to whether or not a video game is appropriate is evidence to me that we need far less of them.

@ Dog_Welder

LOL! Seconded!

@TheEdge

...omfg...brilliant analogy!

American police departements are preparing themselves to fight the impending wwaaavvveee of violence soon to be unleashed upon the country because of GTA IV. ( insert apocalyptic music here )

Meanwhile, québécoise police is standing by to calm rioters after futures victories of the Canadien. lol :)

@ lance20000
I agree, I'm in calgary as well, and I feel ashamed that our police force has stooped to recycling this garbage. But then again, if you really think about it, most of our police force is getting near retirement, so they are from a different generation, where video games were something only children indulged in. Their view of video games is based on what they were, not what they've become...

@kurisu7885

With pages and pages of:

blahblahblah 60 Minutes blahblahblah Columbine Simulator blahblahblah murder in Arkansas blahblahblah CNN blahblahblah Virginia Tech Counterstrike blahblahblah Fox News blahblahblah lies blahblahblah ad infinitum et ad nauseum

So he gets the cops to issue a warning by scaring them with his propaganda. Congratulations Jack, another well fought, meaningful, victory. Was Senator McCarthy a hero of yours by any chance?

[...] Gamepolitics also has two reports: one detailing a concerned Calgary police force, and the other detailing a rare joint alliance between the ESRB and the NIMF (National Institute for Media and Families) warning parents about the game’s content. [...]

@GRIZZAM 512

Uhm... are you being silly on purpose or what? When they say 'rewarding your violence' they mean, IN GAME. Where yeah, in game it DOES reward violence, in fact, it requires is. What THEY are saying is that this "hey, my violence is rewarded!" ideology will carry into the real world... I seriously thought I made that clear.

Odds are that Thompson wasn't involved in the slightest to be honest, he's done this a few times, even claiming association with the Byron Report at one point, it's one of the only ways he can get attention, obviously his name isn't turning up in his Google searches as much as they used to.

As was pointed out the other day, Thompsons' antics now are all bluster and no content, he's filed a string of intents and not followed up on one of them. I'm inclined to agree with JackDontKnowJack and say he's reduced to nothing more than a talking head these days, he was more interesting when he did something other than Email people complaining but that's all he's got left. It's kind of pitiful really.

@Kin

Yes that was intentional.

[...] Probably feeling left out as the world’s biggest moron parade marches by without them, the Calgary police department has come out to say that Grand Theft Auto IV is a "grave concern" and is worried about children becoming exposed to it, thus turning into psychopathic killers because they played a videogame. [...]

Kin Says:
"Uhm…. putting aside the whole ‘are kids influenced by video games’ argument, kids under like… 16 probably shouldn’t be playing GTAIV, same way they probably shouldn’t be watching SAW or Hostel."

Uhm, Kin, you raise your kids the way you want, but don't presume to tell me what videogames and movies my kid - who you've never met - shouldn't be playing. I'm the parent and I get to decide. You're doing the very thing that pisses off so many gamers - like the ESRB you're trying to impose your standards and your reactionary mentality on everyone else. The only time you get to decide what other people's kids get to watch or play is when they're under your roof. Otherwise keep your opinions on what people's kids do to yourself - it's none of your business.

When I was 12 and if I tried to take a damn cookie I would get in trouble! What did I do? Kept my damn hand out of the cookie jar!!! It seems to me the idiots that "assume" kids will do violent acts. This game is NO different than any past GTA games that done NOTHING to cause chaos on city streets. If they want to go extreme, I can go extreme right back in their face.

@Kin

Agreed wholeheartedly. I've even seen flea market booths adhering to ESRB ratings to avoid such backlash.

Calgarian here. A few years back, a high up police official (not the chief, but someone kinda important, forget who it was) came to our school for a talk. One of the things he brought up was Grand Theft Auto and how it was destroying childrens moral compasses. Seems like his opinion hasn't changed much since then.

This is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that people are so afraid of a video game, that a section of the Police have to issue a statement concerning it is nothing short of madness.