Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

June 2, 2008 -

While libraries and church groups are increasingly turning to video game events in order to attract teens, such get-togethers may have copyright implications, according to the School Library Journal.

Check out this Q&A posted yesteday:

Q. Lots of school and public libraries are hosting gaming tournaments, featuring popular video games like Guitar Hero and Madden Football. Since these games are intended for home use, isn’t that similar to purchasing a movie and showing it to a large audience?

 

A. Everyone seems to be asking that question! Video games come with licensing agreements, and before purchasers can play the games, they must agree to their terms. The video-game licenses that I’ve seen are strictly for “personal, noncommercial” uses—not public ones. So when libraries host gaming programs, they’re violating these agreements. Yet, lots of libraries are doing just that—and they’re getting away with it. And some are even charging an admission fee to attend these events. What gives?

 

My guess is that video-game distributors never anticipated their games would be used publicly. So when their lawyers drafted the licenses, they simply used language commonly found in software contracts...

 

Librarians can: (1) continue to offer video-game competitions and let the chips fall where they may; (2) contact the rights holders and ask if their licenses can be modified to accommodate your programs; or (3) email the rights holders and tell them you’re opting out of the portion of the contract that allows only home use—and unless they tell you not to, you’re planning to offer gaming tournaments.

GP: It's a fascinating question. Game publishers would look like big meanies if they tried to enforce this, of course. On the other hand, I believe that Internet cafes pay for some type of multi-user license for some online games.

UPDATE: A well-informed video game industry source dropped GP a line, offering some insight on this story:

For motion pictures, schools, libraries, and other institutions get licenses to exhibit the movies. It's pretty straightforward and no-one seems to have a major problem with it. See http://www.movlic.com/ and http://www.mplc.org/aboutMplc.php I'm not aware of similar services for video gaming. Probably should be.

 


Comments

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Tina Hardister thardister@saline.lib.ar.us

Ok I was hit with this today during a webinar regarding licensing for gaming. 

From School Library Journal:

What should librarians do? I can think of at least three options. Librarians can: (1) continue to offer video-game competitions and let the chips fall where they may; (2) contact the rights holders and ask if their licenses can be modified to accommodate your programs; or (3) email the rights holders and tell them you’re opting out of the portion of the contract that allows only home use—and unless they tell you not to, you’re planning to offer gaming tournaments. Although the last option sounds incredibly brazen, copyright experts say it happens all the time in the business world. Of course, there’s always the possibility that your library may be held liable for misusing a video game (sorry), so each of us needs to determine how much risk we’re willing to take.

How and who do we contact in order to do any of these options? Does anyone know?

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Jason

Looking at the attack on modchip users they already are IMO, the media industry is pretty much in league with the RIAAs tactics unless they go out of their way not to be in line with  thos mentalities..

 

They have not gone after church or libraries yet because there is lil gain to it, once they figure out how to milk it they will.

 

 

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

There's little incentive to. One of the positive aspects of the law is that certain nonprofits that meet the legal criteria can have damaged for infringement reduced to 0, if they're acting in good faith.


 

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Going after public librarys would be the equivalent of punching an old lady in the face and then posting it on youtube. They would start to look like the next RIAA.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Tis zippy again

 

Since big media has issue over free advertising (if you can’t tell they hate it) they tend to like their inbreed contracts it makes them feel safer.

 

Lending and creating a backup are fair use issues yet they blantly try to side step consumer rights time and time again, well they have pushed this consumer to never buy new again and to consider all non sold bootlegs to be fair hunting data.

 

They need to simplify licensing structures as so you don’t off your budget, say you have 5 games from1 company then you get 10keys or however as many as you need in a monthly rental setup for pennies on the new cost of game, it would make for a steady flow of money to the publishers and shops could manage keys hell of a lot more effincailty, the game industry needs to learn what the music industry is learning sale at loss per item but in volume that gains you a profit above cost.    

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

It's unlikely that any notice on a console game would be seen as an agreement. Rather a notice of the user's rights as understood by the copyright holder. The purchaser still retains any rights he already had.

Whether this allows use in schools and libraries isn't all that clear. There's a lot in their favour. Only people who belong to the organisation are allowed to play, and they are non-profit organisations. Private clubs can be considered public or private depending on circumstances.

The publishers know this is not a big problem, is free advertising, and if they sue they risk bad publicity and a ruling against them. They typically prefer to take a "see no evil" approach, and pretend this simply isn't happening. Telling them you're doing it is probably a bad idea. It forces them to respond.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

(3) email the rights holders and tell them you’re opting out of the portion of the contract that allows only home use—and unless they tell you not to, you’re planning to offer gaming tournaments.

You can do that????

I'm gonna start doing that with all the bullshit parts in the EULA's I find.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

You can do that????

You can negotiate any contract or agreement (I'll leave whether this is an agreement to another post). Even in a shop, you're allowed to offer less than the asking price. They're allowed to make a counter offer or - more likely - refuse.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

I think it probably depends on the individual business, and how far they will enforce this. The NFL for example, is very strict about any sort of large audience broadcasts of football games. I remmeber there was much ado about it during this past Superbowl, and some churches actually ran into problems because they were planning on showing it on a bigscreen.

Regarding video games though, I have no problems with churches and libraries holding these kind of events, provided they are free... also a good way to attract teens, in addition to the content.

If this becomes a problem, I'll be interested to see how the industry handles it.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

 Given that so many facets of the EULA are unenforceable anyways, I doubt there will be a problem. Most console games don't have an EULA at all. Go ahead. Look in your instruction manual. There isn't one. Computer games on the other hand, almost always have an EULA printed on the outside of the disc container, opening it and taking the disc you are assumed to have agreed to the EULA.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Computer games on the other hand, almost always have an EULA printed on the outside of the disc container, opening it and taking the disc you are assumed to have agreed to the EULA.

Most.

My parents were not impressed with one game we bought, where the EULA was in the same envelope as the disc, but the outside of the envelope was sealed with a sticker proclaiming that by opening the envelope we agreed to the EULA contained inside the sealed envelope...

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

And that is one thing that absolutely has to be tossed out the window.

No court in the world will side with any organization who makes people agree to terms they are not able to review before agreeing to them.

They will also not side with said organization if the agreeing party is not able to negociate the terms.

Those are the two main reasons EULAs fail.

E. Zachary Knight
www.editorialgames.com

 

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Well Ive seen kids playing porn games in libraries so... yeah... whatever.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Ruth Dukelow, a fellow member of the American Library Association's Copyright Advisory Network, would argue that a video game may not be considered a dramatic performance (if it is a performance under the law at all).  Therefore, it may very well fall under the libraries and nonprofits exemption under 110(4). That particular copyright exemption allows noncommercial nondramatic public performances.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Well,I like to think the games industry would be willing to let their games be played for good causes like trying to get people to go to church(unless they're atheists).

Even if they did violate,I like to hope the industry wouldn't be so greedy to press exuberent charges.

 

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

As far as I can tell, if it's legal for EB games and other stores to have stations set up to play, there's no reason this shouldn't be legal. I'm sure those stores get the rights to do it, but if they do, I see no reason why librarys or what not wouldn't.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Recent court ruling in regards to software licenses and First Sale rights via Ars Technica:

arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080523-court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.html

In a gist, court says if you sell it like a product but call it a license, a license does it not make.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

The issue is one that members of the U.S.'s professional organization, the American Library Association, has thought about at least a little bit. I don't think we've come to any hard and fast conclusions, however. I know I've talked to others about it. The only time I specifically recall a similar question about games being brought up on a forum is here:

http://www.librarycopyright.net/wordpress/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=1425

Libraries do get licenses for movie nights. Some libraries have also had to stop allowing people to watch movies in certain circumstances (for example, allowing several people in a room to watch a movie checked out of the library) because of public performance issues.

EULAs complicate things. Generally, librarians have to act as if EULAs are enforceable unless directly allowed to act otherwise (e.g., under the advice of counsel or permissions are sought). You can give up rights you would ordinarily have, such as fair use, through a EULA.

There are other activities that libraries, schools, churches, and other groups untertake that could be considered infringement. Here's an obvious one: Storytime.

It's a public performance, generally of a dramatic literary work. Librarians are pretty comfortable with that one, though- we think we have pretty good fair use arguments there, and no one has every sued a library for storytime to the best of our knowledge.

This is related exactly to my academic studies, though. ^_^

ALA Copyright Scholar

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

 I can see damn good reason for the game industry to ignore EULA in this case.

Video games and movies are very different in this manner. Movies are something that many people will only watch ONCE and then they may never see the movie again, or it might be many months before they do. Any person who sees the movie publicly, without even a cent going to the industry, is a customer lost; so the movie industry makes those public showers pay them for the license to show the film to multiple people so that the industry still gets something...

Video games, specifically the multiplayer games you would find at these events, on the other hand, are NOT something people can play just once and be done with it. Most games, would leave the player wanting more. At these events he waits anxiously to get another turn playing. In the end, the player is gonna leave the event WANTING to play the game. 

And there in lies the difference. Public viewing of movies can cause a LOSS in customers, but the public play of video games works like free advertising and CREATES customers.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

if publicly trying a game meant a lost customer demo kiosks wouldn't exist

-kurisu7885

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

UPDATE: For motion pictures, schools, libraries, and other institutions get licenses to exhibit the movies. It's pretty straightforward and no-one seems to have a major problem with it. 

Yes, but... a motion picture only prohibits public showing, there's no way for them to technologically prevent it (the DVD player cannot count the number of viewers...) Hence the need for a clause, and special permission.

By their design, video games already prohibit public showing, because you can't have 120 ppl playing the same copy of the game all at once. Unless you've made illegal copies. So if there's one copy for every person, then you're not "showing" it to masses of people at the same time from the same copy...

Public showing, in terms of movies, means showing it to more than just a few friends. IE showing it to a crowd, to the public. It does not necessarily mean showing it IN public. By that logic, merely playing your DS outside your house would be a breach, because anyone could look over your shoulder and see the game...

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

One of the reasons rental stores were so eager to jump on video game rentals was because unlike videos, console games do not require a special license to rent.  The Computer Software Rental Amendments Act of 1990 ,  states:

17 U.S.C. §109(b)(1)(A) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a), unless authorized by the owners of copyright in the sound recording or the owner of copyright in a computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying such program), and in the case of a sound recording in the musical works embodied therein, neither the owner of a particular phonorecord nor any person in possession of a particular copy of a computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying such program), may, for the purposes of direct or indirect commercial advantage, dispose of, or authorize the disposal of, the possession of that phonorecord or computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying such program) by rental, lease, or lending. Nothing in the preceding sentence shall apply to the rental, lease, or lending of a phonorecord for nonprofit purposes by a nonprofit library or nonprofit educational institution. The transfer of possession of a lawfully made copy of a computer program by a nonprofit educational institution to another nonprofit educational institution or to faculty, staff, and students does not constitute rental, lease, or lending for direct or indirect commercial purposes under this subsection.

(B) This subsection does not apply to--

 

    (i) a computer program which is embodied in a machine or product and which cannot be copied during the ordinary operation or use of the machine or product; or

     

    (ii) a computer program embodied in or used in conjunction with a limited purpose computer that is designed for playing video games and may be designed for other purposes.

     

This exception was set to expire in 1997, but sunset clause was eliminated in 1994.

Long story short, unless the laws have changed, the schools and libraries should be fine having console based fun nights.  If they are having PC LAN parties, that may be another issue.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

In terms of financials,

I think game companies are more concerned with lost money on used game sales at Gamestop than public playing. They're not going to get much money by enforcing small local events to pay a premium.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

I think game companies are more concerned with lost money on used game sales at Gamestop than public playing.

They're going to have a hard time arguing that though. First Sale Doctrine has been upheld in court, granted over a used copy of software, but the principle applies. The court essentially ruled that software COPIES are sold, not licenses, and so merely stating in the EULA that you cannot resell a program/game does not mean that it's enforceable...

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Ha! I considered this back when Halo tourneys were first being run by churches and libraries for profit. It's the whole 'cost of running' charge or 'ticket entry' fee that makes these very sketchy, in my opinion. By placing a monitary value on the activity, they're giving the publishers a lot of room to stand on.

"My guess is that video-game distributors never anticipated their games would be used publicly. So when their lawyers drafted the licenses, they simply used language commonly found in software contracts..."

I'd tend to disagree. While it is certainly possible that some companies used wording from existing contracts, most companies create EULA's with specific wording and intent created specially for that software title by laywers who are especially experienced in writing them.

Afaik, the agreements that I can recall specifiy where it is OK to play rather than list all of the places that are not OK. Assuming that an activity is peachy-keen because the EULA didn't implicitly mention a specific use in their agreement, even after they exclude other uses, is playing a very risky game. It would be much safer to assume that games "are strictly for 'personal, noncommercial' uses", as the article mentions, than to assume 'hey, they didn't say public use, so everything is OK!'...it's a lot like the little kid response 'well, you didn't say that I shouldn't do it this way, so it's not my fault!' 

And while I belive that there is no company in their right mind that would go after libraries and churches as long as the tournaments stay as local singular events, these folks ARE walking a very fine line. They're able to get away with it only because they are taking advantage of their position as libraries and churches. If Gamestop, Walmart, or even your local Mom n' Pop videogame store ran tourneys like these, they'd definately be contacted by the publishers (and/or their lawyers). And you can bet your hat that the publishers would be all over them if any church or library attempted to make this sort of thing a larger event, or some sort of crazy national tournament.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Mmm's comment @ 10:52am really nailed it.  This is less an EULA issue and more a public performance issue.  There really is an essential legal difference between a library loaning a game to an individual, and a library hosting a public game night.  But it goes to the public performance of a copyrighted work; an EULA might reiterate that, but it would be essentially redundant.

The Vernor case is interesting in that it would seem to weaken draconian EULAs, the terms of which a consumer cannot possibly know before opening the shrink wrap.  But in Vernor the First Sale Doctrine was found to trump Autodesk's EULA.  In this case the First Sale Doctrine isn't being restricted; in fact, the EULA doesn't even need to come into play because we're still talking about a public performance of a copyrighted work.

So really, I think the answer quoted in the original post misses the point.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

There really is an essential legal difference between a library loaning a game to an individual, and a library hosting a public game night.  But it goes to the public performance of a copyrighted work; an EULA might reiterate that, but it would be essentially redundant.

I disagree. Is it a public performance if by sheer design it cannot be "viewed" by more than a small handful of people (ie the max concurrent players) at a time?

That would be like the library hosting a movie night, but the movies could only be viewed by 2 ppl at a time in a sealed room, followed by 2 more ppl, etc. You'd be hard pressed to argue that that was a "performance" rather than an "extermely-short-term-rental"... (ie the rental period was the length of the movie itself...)

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Libraries generally do get licenses for movie nights because of the public performance issue.


 

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Libraries generally do get licenses for movie nights because of the public performance issue.

Yes, but my argument is that the "public performance" issue is moot, because video games cannot be played as a "performance" like movies can. It would be like requiring a library to get a "performance" license for hosting a "reading" night, even though only one person could read a particular book at a time (I realize that books can be read out loud, but I'm purposefully ignoring that "feature" for the example).

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Ah, I thought you were referring to the "public" part rather than the "performance" part. My mistake. ^_^

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

@Aliasalpha:

I think that's falling into the copyright and IP issue at that point and less of a EULA issue. (See John Bruce using Halo 3 pictures.)

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

@Nightwng2000:

 

See my previous statement. Video game EULA's in particular do not differentiate between the person who bought it and who is playing. Since, say Army of Two can be played by two players it never says "and only the two players who play it for the first time." So as long as there is no money being exchanged for using the product then a church or library tournament is not outside the EULA.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

They might be if they are using it as quasi-advertising, that'd be an intangible profit.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

The courts have recently upheld the "first sale doctrine" for software, and I imagine they'd do so if it were brought up for games as well.

So really, "renting" it out is perfectly legal. And that in essence is what is happening here. They "rent" it to each person who sits down to play it, one at a time. This is no different than Blockbuster renting it out to one customer at a time, only the rental period is in minutes, not days.

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

The courts have recently upheld the "first sale doctrine" for software, and I imagine they'd do so if it were brought up for games as well.
This isn't entirely accurate. The court expressly passed on the issue of whether the ORIGINAL transfer was permissible. However, since the person sued wasn't the contractual party, the court didn't find the sale violated the original EULA. I also think that the court sidestepped some really significant issues, but that's besides the point. The parent mischaracterized the holding in that case.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

We should be comparing and contrasting other media formats as well as the USAGE of those media formats.

Books, VHS and DVD movies, audio books and music on cassette and CDs, magazines, newspapers, and other media formats are all available at a library.

But not all are loaned out.

Not all books are loaned out, in fact.  Usually, these are noted as reference books, but they may also be in special sections of some libraries.

Newspapers and magazines are also not checked out for personal use.

But the majority of books, VHS/DVD movies, and some other media formats are checked out for the patrons to make use of at home.

Also, some libraries allow the use of PCs for a limited period allowing patrons to access the internet for a limited period of time per day.

We should note that video game tournaments at either libraries or churches take place AT the library or church on their machines.

How different is this from someone inviting friends over to their house to play games with 2-4 players?

If the games were purchased by the libraries/churches, how can  a EULA be held against them to hold tournaments?

In the case of a library, they may have to have special permission to loan the games out, but if the game is maintained at the library/church, then it is being used by the library for library purposes only.

If they allowed the use of gaming systems the same as they do with PCs, then special contracts may also be required (if such contracts exist for using the PCs in the same manner).

Nightwng2000

NW2K Software

Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

Nightwng2000 NW2K Software http://www.facebook.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Generally, though, the reason those materials aren't loaned out isn't because of copyright or other legal considerations. Usually it's because of preservation and demand issues.

Legally, we're pretty sure dong something at the library is different from doing something at your house. We'd consider doing something at the library more of a public use than something at your house, a personal use (even if it does include a few more of your friends).

 

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

You're right...they do not loan out the medical encyclopedias, for instance, because they are so costly to replace (anywhere from $300-500).

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

The problem being that "No one reads that stuff right? Right?" I deal with this on a daily basis and it kills me. Your average consumer would like the entire EULA to go away or to simply state, "Here, do whatever you want with this piece of software." While ignoring company rights. Because, according to the entire world not one single company on the planet has rights except to put out stuff we want to buy.
Hell, have you seen Itunes EULA? It would seem that Apple doesn't want you using Itunes to pilot planes or submarines. Nor can you decompile Itunes to make a WMD or guidance system.

 

Now why not? I don't think that's fair! Heh.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

They do need to simplify the EULAs, the reason noone reads them is because they're in lengthy legalese, people try and just get confused because of the similar terminology & usually a lack of punctuation. Thankfully a lot of contract things are starting to drift towards plain english, with luck a streamlined EULA is just around the corner (sadly the sign on the corner reads "2163").

Companies HAVE to protect their hard work & spell out the rights & responsibilities of both parties. A basic table would be ideal.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Sorry Billy, your friends can't come over and play Guitar Hero with you becasue then it's no longer private use.   Is this where it's going to end up?

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Too bad there isn't some association fighting for the rights of consumers of electronics. That sounds like an association that could be doing something to reign in EULAs that overstep the company's rights.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

A sort of "Entertainment Consumers Association"? Brilliant idea!

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

@NotMyName:

 

It is legally enforceable because in the agreement itself it says "By playing this game you agree to the above terms."

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

I seriously hope that was snark.

 

-----

By reading this comment you agree to sell me your first-born at prices to be determined at a later date.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Every piece of software has a EULA. EVERY one. Internet cafe licensing is done through a special licensing agreement as well as hosting. Game nights at public places like Churches and Libraries do not violate the EULA unless there is an entry fee of some sort. Generally it's because the EULA allows the game to be played by the maximum amount of people specified on the case. (IE two) and since you cannot play console games with more than the number specified anyway it doesn't matter if it's the same two people playing or not. The console would not specify WHO could play, only how many could play at the same time using the same disc.

 

They're safe IMHO.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Generally it's because the EULA allows the game to be played by the maximum amount of people specified on the case.

No. There are two tiers: the EULA and copyright law. Copyright law makes public performance an exclusive right of the owner of a copyright. Unless you have some case law to the contrary, the first sale doctrine does not abridge this right. So the only way they're safe is: 1. if the EULA permits it; or 2. if the use is fair use.

Commercial activity is only one prong of the fair use analysis. In order to be "safe," those libraries and churches need to complete the entire analysis.

They're safe IMHO.

It's a good thing your opinion doesn't matter.

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Never saw the "license" before or during the purchase of the game, never had to read/agree to it to run the game.... remind us again, why is this considered a legally enforcable document?

Re: Do Library & Church Game Nights Violate EULA?

Because they are not legally enforcable in some cases.

 

it just depends on the court your case is in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA#Enforceability

 
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Andrew EisenKochera privately expressed his disagreement on how Tito decided to do something. No, I don't consider that crossing a line nor do I consider the exchange an example of the group pressuring him.09/20/2014 - 12:36am
Kronotechnical reasons. Anyways, I need to get to sleep as well.09/20/2014 - 12:29am
KronoAnd he wasn't the only one pushing Tito to censor the thread. If Tito had bowed to peer pressure, we likely wouldn't have gotten this http://goo.gl/vKiYtR which grew out of that thread. Said thread also lasted until a new one needed to be made for09/20/2014 - 12:28am
Krono@Andrew So it's an example of Kuchera crossing the line from reporter to advocate. And an example of the group pressuring for censorship.09/20/2014 - 12:21am
E. Zachary KnightAnyway, I am off to bed. I will probably wake up to all of this being knocked off the shout box.09/20/2014 - 12:20am
E. Zachary KnightKrono, that is the type of reading too much into things that bugs me. Ben did no such thing. Greg had the last word in that part of the exchange. The rest was about how to approach the story and Quinn.09/20/2014 - 12:19am
Andrew EisenSo?09/20/2014 - 12:13am
KronoExcept that the forum thread wasn't harassment, and Kuchera continued to push for the thread's removal after Tito made it clear he didn't consider it harassment.09/20/2014 - 12:12am
Andrew EisenPersonally, I see nothing wrong with someone offering their opinion or the other person making up their own mind on how to run their site.09/20/2014 - 12:06am
E. Zachary KnightKrono, I read nothing of the sort in that email chain. I read Ben giving advice on what to do when a forum thread is used to harass someone and spread falshoods about them and others.09/20/2014 - 12:05am
KronoThat's exactly what Ben Kuchera was doing to Greg Tito.09/19/2014 - 11:58pm
Krono@EZK So you see nothing wrong with one journalist pressuring a journalist from a different organization to not only not run a story, but to censor a civil discussion already taking place?09/19/2014 - 11:56pm
E. Zachary KnightI write for a number of blogs and talk to people who write similar blogs all the time for tips and advice. I see nothing wrong with that.09/19/2014 - 11:50pm
 

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