The Escapist: Artist Suggests Game Biz Should Compete with Pirates in Less-wealthy Nations

In a novel, if certainly controversial suggestion, Filipino game design artist Ryan Sumo argues that video game companies should compete with bootleg sellers in poorer countries by selling products with minimalist packaging and even allowing the pirates to burn the actual discs.

Sumo makes his argument in a guest column for The Escapist:

Piracy supports an underground economy and the livelihoods of thousands… in Asia, especially in countries where most people live below the poverty line. This underground exists primarily because its participants cannot afford the exorbitant prices charged by game publishers…

 

Publishers and console manufacturers like Nintendo are convinced that once they stop piracy, the money from all those lost sales will suddenly come flowing into their coffers. For whatever reason they never take into account their prospective market’s spending ability…

 

In the Philippines… piracy isn’t a matter of right or wrong; it’s a matter of survival. To eradicate piracy means depriving people of jobs… It means eradicating the businesses that employ them and negating the taxes funneled to the Philippine government. Developers and publishers will claim a huge victory, but they’ll soon notice that those billions of dollars in lost sales aren’t exactly showing up on their bottom line.

GP: This is a provocative way to look at the piracy issue. Sumo makes a reasonable economic argument. On the other hand, the publishers do have legitimate rights.

 

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156 comments

  1. oto kirlama says:

    I’m all for freedom of ttnet vitamin speech and allowing rent a car game makers to put whatever they want in games, but there’s one thing about this app that has me scratching my head.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but from araç kiralama the previous article araba kiralama on this I gathered that players can use Google maps in-game to find the other (real-life?) dealers in their area.  If this is the case, has travesti anyone considered what’s stopping someone from using this app to actually move drugs between hands for reals?

    But majority araba kiralama of their outrage araç kiralama stems from what it could DO TO children, not the content itself.  Talk to one of these people and you’ll find they don’t think any books kiralık araba should be banned from children.  Mention American Psycho and they talk about kiralık araç the redeeming value of using imagination to construct a story.  Reading, no matter what the content, is largely viewed as a consequenceless activity for people of any age.  The reason why I mention American Psycho is because of the content itself.  Gaming never has and likely never will have any scenes where someone has sex with a severed head.  Not gonna happen.  Yet despite this, they’ll fight tooth and nail to protect their children from two boys kissing in Bully but whatever they read is harmless… yeah.

    The entire arguement is kiralık oto based upon a social normality inflicted by luddites who can’t figure out the controls for Halo so it’s frightening and terrifying and obviously the cause of youth violence on the rise even though, in reality, it’s in decline (which is actually a HUGE suprise given minibüs kiralama the economies status).  In  a perfect world, we would have parents that actually parent.  The idea of sales restrictions on media on oto kiralama any form to accomidate parental unwillingness to get involved with their child’s life is the real problem to me.  Here I am, 32 years old, and being held up at a self-scan rent a car needing to show ID before I can buy a $10 M rated game all because Soccer Momthra can’t be bothered to look at the crap Billy Genericallystupidson does in his free time.  It’s too hard for her, so I have to suffer?

  2. DXR88 says:

    wether you like it or not, prices have a lot to do with theft. why would i pay $60.00 for somthing i can get for 15.00 or 20.00, and works almost identical to the original. i do wait for prices to fall on certain games but the price fall over the years has slowed to a crawl what used to take Six months now take Two years or more. yet another reason piracy is doing so well.

     

  3. gs68 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    You remind me of someone I used to know. Someone whose nick begins with "Raw" and ended with "SteelUT."

  4. Diddy_Mao says:

    Clearly a lot of time and effort didn’t go into spellchecking my previous post.

    yikes.

  5. Diddy_Mao says:

    Okay Mr. Sumo, I see your point.

    Lets comprimise, I’ll pirate the software itself and use your presuedly vast portfolio of game related artwork to advertise and sell my products.

    The game companies shouldn’t care because hey they wouldn’t be seeing this money either and you shouldn’t care because hey, these people weren’t paying you royalties to use your intellectual properties either.

    Meanwhile I get paid and I can go but myself something nice.

    Everybody wins.

    Clearly I’m being sarcastic.

    A lot of time effort and money goes into the production of a game and I don’t see how it’s unreasonable to expect to be paid in kind for that work.
     

  6. Anonymous says:

    Before going further, you need to define your pirates. Game companies are familiar with the standard European/American guy with money who’s too much a cheap bastard to pay for games. That’s a given.

    But in third world countries, not everyone is starving to death. The pirates are members of the middle class that has both the money AND the desire to play games, but a lack of access to those games. The ones pirating aren’t necessarily the poorest of the poor, nor the WorldVision poster boys, many who probably don’t know/care about videogames, let alone know how to read or write. No, it’s the middle class and up the ones who have the technological savviness to copy a game to begin with, let alone torrent it and download a crack. That level of technical know-how starts in the middle class and up, not in the favelas.

    When it comes to places like the Philipines/Colombia ect, people pirate for lack of options, not necesarily for being cheap bastards. If games are overpriced or if the game can’t be imported to begin with, that’s in the game company’s court and it’s up to them to stay competitive. If they are businesses, they better start acting like it.

    Not all hope is lost: do not underesimate the appeal of a nice, original package and new shininess. For example, you don’t HAVE to buy games like Final Fantasy or GTA4 on launch days. Anyone can wait a year or so and get it in the bargain bin. Yet people don’t wait; they make an impulse buy.

    Reasonably priced games set according to the socioeconomic levels of a country leads to happier gamers that will buy many games, instead of having to choose only one and pirating the others. Why? Rule of shininess and the fact that the world ISN’T completely rotten. You will always have the cheap bastards, but you have a chance to earn legitimate buyers. (It wouldn’t kill the devs to lower production costs. That’s why Square Enix went multi with the last FF on the XBox 360. The PS3 alone wouldn’t put them in the black.)

    The genius of iTunes isn’t the price —they’re actually pricier than other services. It’s ease of service. If the custumer really wants a CD, his question is: "do I spend hours searching and downloading a thing that may or may not work? Or checking out some other service that may not work with m iPod? Or do I take out my credit card in .09 seconds, click a buttom and get the song a like for the price of a Wendy’s value meal?" That type of person doesn’t care if CDs have better audio; they only want a song that they’ll play a few times and forget about eventually.

    There’s an old business adage that says that if three guys in a garage can do the same thing you can do cheaper and easier, YOU are are doing it wrong. Pirates are winning, and sitting around complaining or adding Securom won’t help or ignoring Third World markets won’t help. Recognizing the market’s limitations help: like someone said in this very thread, MMOs are making money in the Philipines. MMOs are particularly well-suited for the region, since they are hard to pirate and the subscription is cheap. If I ruled the world, I’d make MMOs a priority on Third World markets, since there’s money to be had if you play your cards right.

  7. Anon says:

    Not to mention you’re hitting 10$+ for a lossy AAC album as compared to CD audio. When you think about it you’re not really getting a deal at all because you’re paying less for something of worse quality. When a company puts up a store that allows you to dl lossless albums I will stop buying CDs, until then I’m not going to pay close to the same price for stuff like itunes and amazon mp3s.

  8. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Uummm Its called localizing profits,heres the funny thing about games they can be sold for 30$ USD and still get a profit, it would take a years worth of world wide sales rather than 3-7 months in the main 3 countries, they need revamp how they handle  localized ales the Australia thing is quite sad when you are paying twice the world wide average this is not mere profits but price gouging.

    Its there own damn price fixing that creates piracy half the time!

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  9. ZippyDSMlee says:

    You still hit 10$+ on albums but its definalty a way forward for the music industry, a cheaper model like amazon I hope becomes more standard , the less DRM the better without high prices and silly restrictions people can rebuy as much as they want.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  10. Vinzent ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    You can’t price compete with software pirates. Legit business have overhead, like paying the developers so the developers can survive to make more games. Pirates have no overhead, so they turn a profit no matter what the price.

    If the videogame companies announced that they were selling these games for $5 tomorrow in underprivaledged countries (at a significant loss to the company), The pirates would sell the same games for $3 and still turn a profit.

    So all of this "help the poor guy out and defeat piracy" is just pixie dust being blown up our collective biologies.

  11. Krono says:

    To lay the poverty of one country on the backs of another, isn’t right either.

    And this would be a change in their current business practices… how exactly?

    They already do regional pricing with some countries getting shaffted with higher prices, simply because they can get away with charging them.

    So why not take it to it’s logical conclusion and lower the price to budget levels in places where the market can only support budget levels? Development costs have already been recouped elsewhere anyways, so why not acknowledge that a given area isn’t going to turn a large profit, so instead settle for a small profit rather than no profit?

    -Gray17

  12. Thad says:

    Seems like a good idea to me.

    The best way to challenge piracy is to compete with it.  The iTunes music store hasn’t eliminated music piracy by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s given people a cheap, convenient alternative and is doing damned good business.

  13. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Wow what a way to miss the point why not have the black market not sale guns enslave people to trade or push drugs on people…or better yet have corporations share their profits wit the world!

    The point here is that media needs to realize they need to change to focus on longer term outlooks, by adding alil debt in one sector to expand it and thus break even or better later, its deper than just "lulz they can’t affordz it move along"…………………..

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  14. ZippyDSMlee says:

    But they suffer for not doing it, dman if you do damned if you don’t if you make leeway in a market you can gain a profit of it but not even trying to effect change is more assinie,corperations want profits handed to them on a golden plate screw working for it they want to spam out antaquited and flawed business practices in the hopes to maintain high profits, the music has found out such foolishness will end them, the music industry is finding out what poor business practices dose to their bottom line they a re trying to change but both the video and game industries need to get a clue before they implode on them selfs.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  15. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Renting is not an option when the cost of 2 rentals eqauls the price of 1 used game, notto mention the gas prices now adays..renting anything is bad anyway you tend to pay 25% fothe price that soemthign canbe gotten dicounted or 50-60% of what it can be gotten used..

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  16. Questionmark says:

    Rather then pirating games someone should be working to help localize them and bring them in legitimitley. I’m sorry it’s more expensive for you, I really really am. But that doesn’t mean you should get to buy illegal copies that don’t benefit the people who created them. If you can’t afford to play legal copies, then you can’t afford to play. Period.

  17. Quesitonmark says:

    It’s not the companies responsability to suffer so that anyone who wants to play the games can. If you want to play the game, it’s your responsibility to find a way to finance that yourself, if you can’t tough luck, sucks to be you. As I said before, playing games is a privlidge and enterainment, not a right or a need.

  18. ZippyDSMlee says:

    and all the more reason to do soemthing to get thos lost profits insted of ignore it and let the whole media indutry rot there, bootleggers jsut don’t bootleg games but CDs and DVDs as well this is a issue the indutry as a whole has to deal with, ignoreing it and mispalcing the blame onthe consumer is not the answer.(I ahte this palce dose not work with FF’s spell checker grrr!)

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  19. ZippyDSMlee says:

    or the comapnies stop being glutonus masses and see that becuse they do not properly distribute thier stuff they not only lose would be profit but aid the black amrket byproxy as well.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  20. Mazinja says:

    No, the Philippines is poor because of countless other reasons.

    This doesn’t mean that they should be deprived of buying games 😐

  21. Mazinja says:

    this is also an issue in Colombia. While considerably better off economically than other latin american countries, videogames are still REALLY expensive, well over the $50 price tag, even for older games. And then there are games you cannot even FIND. Importing games is often not an options, since the shipping is often rather expensive and the mail is SLOW. Even the ocassional "save to get a $50 game" deal doesn’t work too well considering the gouging prices. There is no system for trading games in, because there are only a handful of game stores in the capital and they offfer no such service. The rentals offered are usually on the crappy side, if available at all.

    So… people get consoles, chip them up, and get pirated games. Sure, they may have crappy quality or whatever, but often the salesmen are willing to trade them back if they don’t work. I much prefer getting original games and do so wherever I can, but I cannot afford to do so when I’m in Colombia, having to go to the US to get them.

    The business opportunity for videogames is there. The desire for videogames is there. What is NOT there… is the economic resources to get an original product, which is why piracy is so big.

    I imagine the situation repeats itself in many other nations, including the ones mentioned in this article.

     

  22. Questionmark says:

    Or people could stop being selfish and say "Hey, I can’t afford to pay for this so I’m gonna have to go without."

    The Phillipines are not poor because of the Game Industry.

  23. Questionmark says:

    Excuse me, well if you had an iota of sense you would know that the mac version is going to be basically the same as every other version with slightly lower graphics. And honestly, who the hell plays games on a mac?

  24. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Yes but 1 cent over the cost of production is profit thus they can chose to either fix the problem they made by ignoring it or keep on ignoring it, also it would not hurt corporate image if they tried abit harder to help reduce illicit profit from black market rings buy trying to offset regional prices more.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  25. Questionmark says:

    Hmm, sounds like I get to be an unpopular opinion, yay.

    So basically this guy’s arguement is that the publishers won’t get any of the money they aren’t getting now, and thousands of people will be out of work.

    How sad for them. I’m sorry but asking me to feel sorry for a software pirate when he gets caught and loses his income is akin to asking me to feel sorry when a thief gets caught and doesn’t get the money for selling his stolen goods. The material isn’t theirs to sell, so I can’t really feel bad that they’re not going to get paid.

    Likewise, even if the publishers don’t get any additional income from the people who would have bought pirated games, they can be assured they won’t get any less, or at least not much less, either. They will be able to say that only those people willing to pay for the privlidge to play their games got to. Because that’s what videogaming is people, a privlidge not a right. It’s entertainment, and in reality if you can’t pay for entertainment, you get to do without.

    Also, I’m sure there are lots of more productive things these pirates could be doing with their lives, like I dunno, farming food for poor nations or something. The world needs lots of work to be done still.

  26. ZippyDSMlee says:

    In a ture free market there is no real monoply, so in a sence they have to in order to gain profit from aeras that otherwise would go untouched becuse they are not ensured a monoply.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  27. Freak4all says:

    I sorta understand what he’s trying to say, but at the end of the day he’s basically asking these companies to compete with their own products….

  28. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Its like government they can easily do it,or at least do it with a reasonable amount of trouble the problem is here is no way to force the point to have them to do it, its almost like civil rights in the 20-40s its subtle something that may come to a head in time but being a bureaucracy for the bureaucracy they put off dealing with the issue until they HAD to.

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  29. shaoron says:

    @GP

    it’s a surprise you suddenly have 2 game related articles about my country.. hehe…

     

    anyway.. yeah, this article is so true.

    Here’s the thing, if it wasn’t for pirated games, the PS and PS2 wouldn’t have a large fanbase here.
    it’s a bit sad i know but it’s true.

    PC CDs sell for aorund P50, DVD around P100-120

    PS used to cost around… P120(?) and now as low as P40. PS2 around 150 i think now around P75-100

    i don’t know the value of XBOX/360 games but my guess it’s around there…

    Original copies, depending on the game, cost as little as 1000 and up to 3000 (sometimes more, again, depends on the game) When i bought a copy of CnC3 and KW during their release dates it cost me 1700(?) and 1500 respectively (if i got the numbers right)

    NOTE: As of the moment, the exchagne rate is somewhere in $1 = P45

  30. Jabrwock says:

    Kind of like the slant that "piracy = sampling what’s out there"?

    *shrug*, I’m not the one trying to justify millions of dollars of taxes to be spent trying to recoup billions of dollars of fictional revenue. They have literally pulled their "loses" figures out of their asses, and have frequently admitted it.

    Why is it that pirates are all lumped into the "little teens who don’t want to pay for anything" group? Is that stereotype easier to rationalize being mad at? As opposed to: a) people who use laptops and don’t want to have to keep inserting the CD, b) people who hate the idea of an app "phoning home" all the time, c) people who don’t want to shell out big bucks just to try something out because the marketers don’t feel a demo is worth their effort…

    If you want to sample a game, play the demo.  If you want to play the full game without paying for it, call a spade a spade.

    Ok, current example. Wall-E: The Game. For Mac. Guess what, no demo. You can’t rent PC games, you can’t borrow your friend’s copy (legally anyway), and most brick & mortar stores don’t sell Macs, so you can’t ask them to demo it for you.

    And I certainly can’t buy it, discover it’s shite, and return it. EULAs & return policies bind your arse when you take the shrink-wrap off.

    So, in the end, I was left with two choices. Risk being stuck with $60 worth of crap I can’t use (and before you say "reviews", keep in mind that they can be bribed), or try it out (albeit illegally), and decide that yes, I like this game, it’s worth it. At which point I order it from the store, because I feel that their product is worth my money.

    So call me a pirate with morals. If that makes you feel better.

    — If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap…

  31. Cyberdodo says:

    [quote]Also here is a quick fucking clue[/quote]

    I stopped reading at that point.  Thanks for the hostility. kk bye la~

  32. Shock_at says:

    So far, only one publisher is thinking correct in terms of pricing (in the philippines) and thats EA. All EA games sold here are only around 30$ even the spanking new ones like crisis, kane’s wrath, mass effect. I only buy original from EA and the occasional Valve game which is worth the 50$. But if alot more publishers would sell their stuff at around the 30$ here, then i would have owned alot more of those games.

    It isnt much of a problem with the issue between spending for food or games. Most people who have trouble with basic living dont even know about the games and just watch the variety shows during lunchtime. Those who have a stable source of living are the ones actually playing the games, but when a single game could cost you a little more than 1/3 of your monthly salary then it makes you think of your options (this is a consumer standpoint with no morals considered since the free market idea is supposedly without restrictions).

    Thats why in the philippines, the highest earning game related companies are the online game publishers since there is no way to pirate it without loosing some of its allure (IE private MMOs, seriously with less than 1k people in the server its hard to have fun as opposed to 5k people). People here would spend the entire day at the internet shops playing these types of games and they spend for the internet time, the game time (if there is) and any item shop. The average pay2play cost for these games is around 250-350 pesos which is 5-7$ per month add into that item mall spending which for the hardcore group is their bread and butter to stay competative and also the cost of internet time here is around 0.40$ per hour.

    What does this mean? it means there is a very large group of people spending alot of money on games, but spending in "smaller" chunks at a time. These people might consider the 50$ price point as something they would never touch

    Now if EA could sell their games at 30$, then maybe other publishers could also follow.

     

    Fun Fact: gamecube games here are more expensive than wii games at the retailer (70$, 50$ respectively)

  33. Anon says:

    Man I don’t pirate games and I think its stupid, but people like you that get all high and might about it really piss me off. Look, I have read barely anything in this thread defending piracy, just people saying that this idea might be smart to combat real piracy in poor countries where games are sold for ridiculous inflated prices.

    Give me a fucking break man, by your logic any kind of music turns people into thieves and degenerates as well, because I can promise you that every genre of music has had songs dled from it, while your at it movies turn people into criminals as well because there are bootleg copies of those.

  34. PHOENIXZERO says:

    But corporate morals (what little they had left) went out in the 80s. *shrugs* It goes both ways.


  35. PHOENIXZERO says:

    Major retail stores do keep track of every return made and usually you need to have a receipt and if you don’t then you’re screwed except for places like Wal-Mart that will let you still make a return if you provide ID such as a license and you’re only allow so many returns this way every six months or a year. They either have regional databases or the info is shared with their entire network. They could easily adopt this to game/software/movie returns. But the fact remains that publishers are the ones that refuse the returns. Though I’m sure if WalMart wanted they could bend them to their will.


  36. ZippyDSMlee says:

    you ever sign for a return on anything?

    that data goes somewhere just the whole retail industry has not been forced in anyway to do something about it.

    I’d like to go along the lines of innocence before guilt on returns even if you have a max of 3 items per store per month its enough to force the retail industry to reevaluate and streamline the process if enough of the industry dose this then they can share customer buying habits(via statics like they dio now) and return data, make the accounts something you need to sign for (as so they can do basic level of statistic gathering to help share the burden of the return system, the statistic company buys the data).

    But its going to really need to start with indavendaul stores and shops and then evolve from there unless a middle man agency can come out of no where and assit in the foundation and operation of  such a database that all retail shops can have access to for a small fee, but in the end the indutry has to want it for it to evolve into something they can manage easily.

     

    poke holes in mew logic but I think it can be done.

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  37. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Heres how I precive it to "work"
    you make a game with a world wide focus and are running say a healthy 120% in debt on the project, say your major regions will seek to reduce that debt by 30% each (EU,US,Jp) you have 30% debt left or at least planed debt still on the books for the next qauter now in the small region you are looking at a few thigns

    add 3-8% debt to localize with maybe 1-2 other like regions to  leave it alone to gain 1-12% off your current debt over time.

    or

    You go say 10-20%  in debt for this one single project to ultra localize it to that region, the added debt is to make cheaper packaging,localization,ect  also factors in precived losses at selling at a loss, say in the first 3-6 months because you priced down you sale 3-6% wroth of profit which is 2-3 times as much as you once received from that market, within a years time you could break even on that project in that region and if you are making a profit off the game world wide that region has already started to make a profit, what you do is offset regional profit issues with each other instead of using the current theme of spamage.

    I is have had a fcking nice mental day tell me if any of this "logic" works i the real world LOL

     

    Also yuo can make a budget title that works in multi "poor" regoins and spam that out at like price to lower over all cost, the serge in sales along should offset the nromal ammount of loss or null profit in a years time, altho you stil need to keep margins tight you don’t need to spend 30% of your bduget just making it for budget vile…altho at the same time if you recuop half that you’d probly be making more than not doing anyhting at all, also theres soemthign tob e saidfor building a media buyer/goer theem in a market…the indutry will have to do soemthign in order toget people to buy in..

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  38. Tolazytoapplyforalogon says:

    Again, how would you do that?

    2-3 items per ever store that might carry items that could be pirated.  It takes an hour or two to copy a something.  I can see the public using their Social to purchase media just so returns can be tracked.

    If one person bought 3 different dvds from every different retailer in a large city, copied them and then returned them.  In a week they would Netflix.

  39. ZippyDSMlee says:

    IMO if digi distro is not half the price or less of retial packages its profiteering and bad and should be railed agisnt.

    If they had more DRM but half the price of a normal game I’d buy in easily, I am willing to give up some thigns if the price is right.

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  40. Tolazytoapplyforalogon says:

    Thats just it,

    Can a budget version be made since 90% (I assume, I really don’t know) of the cost is in the game development.

    To lay the poverty of one country on the backs of another, isn’t right either. 

    I agree with a later release, lets say 7 months later when the full profits of the game have run their course.  Since the game is now considered old it becomes budget, but what are the chances that the people in the philipines don’t want to wait that long.

  41. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Around that time the media industry was campaigning that returns on media lead to piracy and it would save the bottom line for both the retailer and publisher, all media games,DVD,VHS,tape,CD stoped beign returnable after 20-30 is months.

    A reasonable return policy of 14 days and 3-6 items total (2-3 games,2-3 dvds,2-3 cds ) I mean my god at least try and track returns with a simple account for returns…it will track returns made by consumers theres good data there to sale to statistic companies and all that I mean it should be the natural evultion of a consumer driven market.

     

    Keys are no problem either jsut have the publisher sale keys and peopel can go to retialers and buy them with or without the used retial package, make it so it takes 6 months befor keys are abaile to protect new game sales than past that make a profit where you can..

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  42. Tolazytoapplyforalogon says:

    Very true, I agree that software return policies are crap but isn’t true that they were created because of piracy.

  43. E. Zachary Knight says:

    I agree that stealing for the sake of stelaing is bad. Piracy is bad. I hate it when people justify their theft.

    My problem is that when game developers and publishers release a game in a poverty striken country such and the Philipines at US prices and then complain about piracy, they are the ones with their heads in the clouds.

    True they have cost to recoup and money to make in order to make the next game, but they sure aren’t managing the marketing very well.

    Most of the time they will recoup their costs in the US, Japan and the greater portion of Europe within the first couple of months. They can then release a budget version in poorer nations to create a better market for legit games in those nations.

    It would require a risk on their end, but if they managed that risk properly, it would be worth it in the end.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  44. tootiredoftheright says:

    You can rent you know? Also most pc games have demos. You also have trailers and as for the review comment that is why you read four or five reviews of a game and use your brains critical thinking skills to determine what reviewer is telling the truth about the game. Also most pirates who claim to sample admit they pirate games with demos already out that do a fine job of demoing the game such as the first four or five hours of gameplay. When this is brought up the pirate admits to not wanting to pay for the game. Here is the thing I have over 50 DS games  guess what very few were full price often and nearly every DS game was brand new and only out for a month or two. There are things called sales and store shopping.

     

    Also here is a quick fucking clue they can track how many downloads and how many bootlegs are sold. Not 100% but a huge margin of it. When a game comes out with a new encryption techinque that makes bootlegs and pirate downloads next to impossible for several weeks or months sales of that game are incredibly high. When the game starts to be pirated they can see how the sales are affected. They keep track of what pirates are saying on various forums.

    Piracy causes the industry to lose billions and hundreds of thousands of jobs.

    Games are a luxury item. Not necessarcy and if you want to blame game prices in foreing countries blame your damn goverment who puts the tax on the games because guess what the goverment hates video games and wants these foreign products not to be sold in their country. As for the claim of tax money do you honestly think the bootleggers are paying taxes on these illicit sales? Funny how whenever a raid comes up they find tons of money that the local goverment then seizes and arrests are made. They ain’t paying jack to the goverment unless it is bribe money to avoid being raided.

    As for claims that the packaging manufactoring are the issue no it isn’t. A game costs tens of millions to develop and why should the first world pay extra to let dumbasses who cannot learn to feed themselves or make industry have cheaper videogames or let piracy happen.

    Funny how people side with pirates without doing the slightest iota of research or any rational thought. It’s called piracy for a reason it’s stealing. Why is it differant to bootleg or illicit download an item then walk into a store and walk out without paying for the item? There is no differance. Pirates should have their hands chopped off and store merchants who sell bootleg merchandise should be executed on the spot and their family members have their businesses destroyed. You would find theivary in the third world to vanish overnight if we started to bomb these little shit countries who contribute nothing but poverty and disease to the world.

  45. Jeremy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    DDO is one I bought from Direct Drive that frankly cost me the same as buying it at the store (they got the sell because the store sold out, hence the reason I was willing to pay the price) …

     

  46. Jeremy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Here Here, I will be a proponent of anti piracy all the way the day developers and publisher tell retail chains that they have to accept returns on the grounds that their product sucks.  I remember when I was a child if a game sucked my parents didn’t go well to bad we are stuck with it they took it back and said this game was horrible we want our money back.  (God forbid if service is not to expectation or not rendered that you have to give a refund)

  47. ZippyDSMlee says:

    you winged me 😛

     

    But really one of the reasons for lack of respect is due to the industry seating tis bottom line right on the consumers, some of us have gone mad from the anal leakage dont’cha  know.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  48. Jeremy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    No I read the whole thing but the first line struck me as so Tom Cruise that I had to make that comment…. oh and I apologize you are not a commie you damn fascist

  49. ZippyDSMlee says:

    I am sorry but thats arrogant spew try living from paycheck to paycheck  sliping bit by bit and enjoying the slightly older console you have as an ecspace from TV/life.

     

    if it was brand new top of the line crap ya I would agree, but thee is more to life than top of the line.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  50. ZippyDSMlee says:

    The industry dose not know how to run on a long trem profit plan thus selling at a loss to compensate over time IE malign more copies available is something the current industry can not do and its to be noted one of the things hold down game sales is the multi consoles them selfs if we had Nin,Sony,MS selling out the designs and let vendors make the hardware and thus incorporate them into some all in one units software sales would go through the roof.

    But again most of the industry woes are caused by the industry not by 2nd hand or the magical one eye/legged bandit!

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

  51. Verbinator ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    "And don;t bring morals they went out in the mid 90s" — hence the problem.

  52. Verbinator ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    You’re right. The cost should be lower, even though there are costs incurred in the marketing and delivery of digital product. Moving data may be cheaper, but it’s not free (just ask your ISP who is probably looking for ways to throttle your band width and make you pay more for it). Any specific games you’re referring to? Heck of a lot of games are available from download retailers like Direct to Drive almost simultaneously with the release of the product in retail stores.

  53. ZippyDSMlee says:

    If you donlt ahve live your SOL on most 360 demos, PSN offers soem demos for some games bu the issues remain,  only a few games have demos and demos are hapharzedly swiped from a game to front for it notto show the rust behind the shiny paint job.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  54. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Theres a problem here, when millions buy the product and only hundred  or thousands don’t pay for it wil the 30% differential keep a dev thats bleeding money out of the poor house the answer is no.

    Also you are not competing on a world wide mini region by mini region scale, they NEED to reevaluate the smaller markets and see that if they sale 100K of product at full price and make alil profit or not enough to cover the price then they need to quarter the price with a localized focused lang/text/region locking if need be then you can sale to that 3-6 times as much having money coming in to offset debt, tis a long trem game plan the short sighted media industry can not handle thinking about.

    And don;t bring morals they went out in the mid 90s when they decried they returns had to be ended because of piracy….more like a itchy bottom line that needed a few more LB added on to it…..

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  55. Verbinator ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

     … but you forgot to figure in the high cost of photo-copying a cover for the CD that these "entrepreneurs" have to shell out.

    We go on and on denying that games cause people to commit violent crimes, but there is certainly strong anecdotal evidence here that gamers are willing to justify other crimes, like larceny, forgery, and distribution of stolen goods.  Jack are you reading here? You’ve just been focusing on the wrong crimes.

  56. Anonymous says:

    Apparently, you stopped reading after the first statement.  No one wants to believe that what they do or how they feel could actually be wrong. It might hurt their precious feelings. But then, rationalization is the second strongest human motivator after survival.

    Right wing fascist, maybe. But never a commie.

  57. ZippyDSMlee says:

    makes a fine point either games are not their for the games you want or they are pre release or tuned to front the game and not show whats under the paint, also for the 360 you need to pay for most new demos one way or another, reviews are more offten than not a loss as well.

     

    Demos are a 2nd thought and frankly I would rather have right of return(with in reason 2-3 games)  a month as so I am protected from poorly made produts.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  58. Anonymous says:

    Not snarky at all. Anyone who can afford to own and operate hardware capable of playing games (PCs, consoles, hand-helds, etc.) is not poor by any definition (in any culture).  If they can afford the player and would like content for it, then they need to make decisions about purchases and buy within their budget.

  59. Jeremy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Probably not much I bet it hits all the high points, but yeah there are a few download sites that have demos still (fileplanet is my choice of sin).

    Mostly I didn’t give it even a chance due to the gamespot incident (I also don’t use gamespot anymore either).

  60. Jeremy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Speaking of cost and oh god its so hard to make a game logic … anyone every wonder why I pay 59.99 for a digital release and I pay 59.99 in a store for a hard copy release … one would think cutting out the boxing, the shipping, etc that I could get a cost break instead of being hit with the same price tag for a copy that may not exist for download in 5 to 10 years.

  61. Torven says:

    Strangely enough, the first hit on my search for ‘Kane and Lynch demo’ turned up the filefront link to the game’s demo.  I wonder how many people might have saved themselves some agony by trying that before dropping $50 on the game.

  62. Jeremy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    LOL that is a Scientologist defense, you only disagree with me because you must have commited crimes and are therefore guilty.

    I love that argument.

    Well frankly you disagree with me and therefore you must be a commie =P. 

     

  63. Jeremy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Now add in on the fact that many reviewers are paid off to say a game rocks (Alone in the Dark cough Kane & Lynch cough) and you have a whole new problem …  so far in the past year every game I have bought that was an "awesome" and "10/10" and "OMG" was a dear god stop the agony stop the crap please someone.  Therefore the simple solution is don’t buy the game till either its so old that they are selling it for that no profit waste of our time price (cause apparantly 10 bucks is to damn cheap yet they still sell the games for that after a year) or buy used on ebay for 10 bucks and tell the company(poor poor developers) to piss off.

     

     

  64. Anonymous says:

    Those arguing that publishers should price themselves to be competitive with pirates are simply rationalizing their own theft habits.

    I make a good living making games, but I still can’t afford a high end BMW, or a 5000 square foot mansion, or even to sit down and eat steak at every meal. Since transportation, housing, and food are all basic necessities, the same "logic" that is being used to justify pirating games should apply here. If I want a BMW, I should be allowed to say, give someone $1000 to go onto a BMW dealer’s lot, hotwire or jack a car and then I drive away with in. Or I should be able to break into someone’s luxury home and live there, use their amenities, eat their food, etc. Or leave a $5 tip on a restaurant table to compensate my server for his or her time and sneak out of fine restaurant without paying? I’m just getting my basic necessities there? Is that wrong.

    Hell yeah it’s wrong. Just like pirating games and selling or buying them is wrong.

    The "idiot" publishers and developers know that to stay in business they need to sell copies of their game at prices which are affordable to customers and make it attractive for retailers to stock their product. Development costs for a AAA title these days with lots of pretty next gen content are running as much as $30 to $50 million dollars. That’s the cost to make it, to pay the salaries of the developers (very few who are independently wealthy game gods). To just break even, they have to sell a LOT of copies at retail prices (not necessarily from retail stores).

    If they don’t sell enough copies at high enough prices, then they go out business, shut down studios, lay off developers.

    If we were just talking about a few sales in 3rd world countries, it might be no big deal. But the worst pirates are the gamers in western nations (US and Europe in particular) who do have the money to buy game titles, but instead, choose to find them for free online. My anecdotal story is this: Our latest big title was about to hit the shelves. In an attempt to get simultaneous world-wide release, copies were manufactured and shipped in advance to other countries. As our death match servers went live, we saw them fill up with gamers from Europe and the US … all playing with the same CD key.

     

  65. unangbangkay says:

    This kind of snarky "if you can’t afford it don’t buy it" comment helps no one. The discussion is about  publishers taking into account economic and market context and expanding their markets by making pricing accessible to the greater majority.

  66. Tolazytoapplyforalogon says:

    Granted, Ill be the first one to say that video game prices are a insane but if I can’t afford one then I simply wont buy it. 

    If it’s something I simply must have, then I save for it.  I don’t go crap, I can’t afford that game so Im going to invest more money into modified equipment so I can steal the game.

    Whether rich or poor, a video game is entertainment.  It is not something one needs for survial, it is not an addiction like Crack (some will argue that), because it isn’t a means of survial you should pay the price of admission.

    A theif, is a theif, is a theif no matter what justifications you try to give it.  If you stole some food to survive, everyone would probably understand but it doesn’t change the fact that you stole some food.

    If a game can be made cheaper by a D/L distribution, cool go for it but I don’t think a recessed country should be the only ones to benifit from it.

     

  67. Brokenscope says:

    No what you have stopped seeing was hard copy demo’s of console games, with the exceptions of demos that come with retail games.

    Most console game demos are gotten online now.

  68. Cyberdodo says:

    Demo? What demo?

    I’ve yet to see a demo version of a console game, and far too often there’s no demo version for PC games either.  I have seen comments to the effect that publishers see demo versions as an aid for pirates to crack the full version, so therefore refuse to publish a demo (which therefore makes the pirated version the only available demo).

     

  69. Vinzent ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    If the locals are living below the poverty line, then perhaps they shouldn’t be blowing their money on Xboxes and playstations. There are cheaper forms of entertainment and FOOD would seem to be more of a necessity.

    Videogames would sem to be more of a destraction from their problems when they should be working towards a solution.

  70. unangbangkay says:

    Look at it this way: game publishers simply don’t reach consumers, either by price or distribution. Digital distribution not only lowered the overall sell cost of many games, it allowed people like Valve and other Steam partners to reach people that could never get a boxed copy. The thesis is that getting more boxed copies out encourages people to buy legit.

    Pirated games come with many caveats, like mod chips, cracks, serial-hunting, multiplayer issues, etc. Legit games hold the advantage in all respects (except when having as nasty DRM as EA planned with Spore et al), and if the cost is only slightly higher, publishers win. Many people in the phils. buy legit, no-frills copies of DVDs and VCDs (sometimes) because quality is higher with legit copies and distributors make certain to get copies out as soon as possible, so folks don’t have to get impatient waiting to see popular movies as soon as available in theaters.

    More availability means higher sales.

  71. Tolazytoapplyforalogon says:

    What about the moral outlook?

    Do the Philippines have such an addiction to video games that it warrants theft?  From the article I can only assume that the difference from pirating a video game and stealing food is that the government makes their taxes on pirating.

    I believe it’s a lousy argument to say that stopping piracy would put people out of business and lose jobs.  If cheap video games are really the issue, then the Philippines should just start a game development company, hire people, and release cheap video games.

    I would have an easier time believing this justification if the people of the Philippines simply traded games (I know, it’s not far from the same thing but the thought process or intentions is different).  Example a group of 10 people got together and bought 1 game and then copied it amongst themselves but that is clearly not the case.  Here, a business is created to solely profit from the works of others.

    Before anyone jumps down my throat, I realize that the tone of the article was to have game publishers release cheaper versions into recessed countries but how can a company realistically do that. 

    “Ok, were going to gouge America for 59.95 but since you’re the Philippines, here’s the same game in a paper sack for 10 bucks.”  Fancy box work doesn’t mean anything to me and if I could get a game for 10 bones without it, then sign me up.

    Another thing, would it really be possible?  I know printing is expensive but would eliminating it really bring the cost down so far in comparison to the millions that are spent creating the game.

    As I blabber on, one more thing…  Would it really change anything?

    “Nintendo – Hey pirate guy, we’re release the game for 10 bucks. Now everyone is going to want to have an origional, Ha ha ha.”

    “Pirate guy – Hey Nintendo, we stole your junk and are still selling it for 5.  Money is so precious here, guess who their still going to buy from.  Our government applauds our efforts too.” <- ok, im being a jerk here but you get my meaning.

     

  72. Torven says:

    "I’ve never bought the industry slant that ‘piracy = lost sales’."

     

    Kind of like the slant that "piracy = sampling what’s out there"?  If you want to sample a game, play the demo.  If you want to play the full game without paying for it, call a spade a spade.

  73. Torven says:

    We are not talking about some life necessity here, we are talking about video games.  If they stop bootlegging, perhaps the money and manpower involved would allow more legitimate enterprises to begin; the peple there obviously have some disposible income.  If this can’t happen, then there are some deeper problems in the region that need to be addressed rather than papered over with a black market economy.

  74. unangbangkay says:

    It makes sense. Most of the people buying pirated games wouldn’t be served legitimately in the first place. The primary font of legit games in the Philippines is DATABLITZ, which has exactly 3 outlets in the country’s largest city. The Philippines has 85 million people. If piracy were totally removed, publishers and devs would hardly see any improvement in sales.

  75. DrmChsr0 says:

    Heh.

    The Basic business equation.

    To get customers, you need to either make a good product or set it at a price many can buy (Of course, within reasonable ranges, no one likes to lose money, you know.).

    While the company has the "right" to a game, they also have an obligation to get the game out to as many people as possible. After all, having the game on the shelf pretty much means thet are losing a lot of maney.

     

    Free information and education as a right? I’d love to say yes, but I have no faith in humanity doing the right thing. Also, I’ve seen educated people not just acting like complete retards, but also either flowing with public opinion or being very easily manipulated by whoever benefits from the manipulation. So you can’t say education should be a right.

    You can manipulate anyone with the right stimulus. Be it religion, an idea, tangible things, or emotions, all one needs is the right stimulus. Even if you educated someone about the evils of such things, there’s no guantaree that he or she will make the right decision. In fact, it’s safe to assume that more often than not, they WILL make the wrong decision.

    Call me pessimistic, a downer, or cynical, but when you’ve seen humanity’s brightest succumb to public opinion and the only thing you can do is absolutely nothing, that’s pretty telling about the state of affairs.

  76. Jabrwock says:

    I’ve never bought the industry slant that "piracy = lost sales". Their convoluted belief that if they only eradicate piracy, sales will skyrocket. They’re assuming people only pirate to avoid paying. Many people I know pirate to "sample what’s out there".

    It’s a question of benefit vs.  effort. If you are a big Indie fan, then while you might pirate a cam of the film, you’ll probably also likely go see it in theatres, because you’re a huge fan, and cams suck. So not a lost sale, in fact, it might help generate some hype, as you might use the cam to convince a few friends to come with you.

    If you think Indie is barely worth $2 watching it at the cheap theatre months after it’s out, then if it’s available for free (interweb), you *might* download it, but if it’s not available, you won’t. And you’ve already decided it’s not worth the $15 to see in theatres (or $30 for the DVD), so stopping the piracy only means you get zip from them, in more ways than just the zero revenue because it was pirated. Zero exposure, and zero revenue potential. They’ll get about as much revenue from you as if you borrowed the DVD from a buddy, watched it, and returned it (I’m sure they have nightmares of all the lost revenue from THAT transaction…)

    Now I’m not trying to justify piracy, I’m just saying that the industry’s accounting practice of "every pirated copy is a lost sale" (see Microsoft’s math that every dollar value of pirated content = $5 of lost "related" sales), is all based on a really bad assumption.

    — If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap…

  77. -Jes- ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    As long as the game publishers actually BELIEVE the bullcrap spewed forth by SecuROM and StarForce, I’m not going to care one bit about the supposed "losses to internet piracy!"

  78. DXR88 says:

    Is Piracy wrong, yes it is. are multibillion dollor’s company running around screaming pirates any better, no there not.

    You can spin it anyway you want, Piracy is wrong(selling for money). Sharing is Okay. and the multibillion dollor company’s that go after both are even worse. 

    Should they compete, No. the game industre should lower its prices, on games to that to the movie industree, around 30 dollors. the pricing on games is outright robery.    

  79. Zerodash. ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    As someone who runs a business, I am shocked at the attitudes presented here about THEFT.  Guess what?  If you produce product and you DON’T GET PAID FOR IT, then there is no way to maintain the business- people lose their jobs.

    My industry also has problems with theft, but if I dropped my prices to compete with cheaper, stolen goods, then I don’t make enough to COVER MY COSTS.

    With piracy, the developer is forced to cover the development costs of both legit and pirate copies (burning a DVD costs are negligeable compared to dev cost).  Forcing the developer to compete with a product (priated) that they SPENT THE MONEY TO CREATE and yet get ZERO payment out of it is absurd.

    You people who defend piracy seem to think all businesses are just swimming in cash and can afford to have their goods consumed without compensation.  Profit margins aren’t what you think- even at full price.

    Keep stealing shit, you parasites.  You are making the world an even better place. 🙁

  80. William ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I f you cannot afford video games, the answer is simple:  Don’t play them.  This seems fairly obvious.  The high prices are no excuse for theft.  Prices are set by the market and what people are willing to pay.  If you think something is too expensive, then vote with your wallet and don’t buy it.  There is no complication here and I’m not sure why there is even a debate at all. 

  81. Linkreincarnate ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Maybe not a right but if games ever want to be considered a true artform by the mainstream then broad worldwide acess is definitly a requirement here. Books, movies, music, sculpture, paintings, and photagraphy all have this. Why don’t games? It seems to me that the games industry wants it both ways. They are either an art form easily accessable to all. Or a buisness. The writer is arguing that they are a buisness and so should make good buisness decisions. He has a point too. You’ll never eradicate piracy. Ever. The best thing to do is make lemons out of lemonade and still get SOME cash out of it. This is not about whats right or wrong it’s about the battles that the video game industry should choose to fight. A battle that costs you costomer loyalty and trust is never worth it because you can’t easily get those things back.

  82. ZippyDSMlee says:

    uhg mew brains has clustered fcked me again…. if you ever want to know what tis like to be learning disabled read what I wrote and think it makes perfect sense….. and then ahve that going a good bit of them time…. ><

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  83. ZippyDSMlee says:

     
    Actually you believe it to be a "product" protected over other media, I don’t see it as that its a medium of media nothing else nothing more and like all media should protected from profiteering as much as illicit profit, I answered your ramblings with those of my own, everyone is so focused on the extream ends not  trying to find a middle…. its so easy to forget a middle is there but I stuck to arguing my point and stuck my feet into my mouth again..I failz! ><.

    personally I argue the point if its bought used then previewing it cannot hurt because I am buying it used, but beyond that the industry wont be getting record profits it shearing dissapaers over night but I  digress (or regress in the case of zippy) .

    Lets end it as I believe the thieves are justified by the industries attempts to misplace their bottom line on the consumer, until right of return returns to the public there is lil sympathy I have the the industry that made tis own bed and then complains about thorns.

    Illicit profits on the other hand needs to dealt with it takes money away from the market and the consumer and may lead expansion of the black market, if mod chips where not a federal crime (ice/FBI raids) I would strongly suggest that the feds get on it beyond racketeering and other charges that go along with piracy.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  84. Brokenscope says:

    Where did I support copyright in its current form? I simply said that copyright as it was originally intended was a good idea? Was that not a clear statement that I do not like current day copyright?

  85. Brokenscope says:


    Where have I said no middle ground should be found? FFS I’ve argued consistently against most DRM and copy protection. I am a fair use Nazi, and I believe that first sale should be inviolable. I believe freedom of speech to be absolute, and I find many corporate business practices annoying if not downright stupid. I have several personal boycotts against companies for anti consumer practices. I believe that videogames are art; I also believe they are a product. Those are not mutually exclusive states.

    So fuck off

  86. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Once again you are unwilling to read what is said or better yet refuse to because you dis approve of the response.

    Would you like to specifically ask the question directly  as so I can answer as much, keep the anagoliges for another day otherwise I will ramble on again.

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  87. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Trouble is mate its only stupid if you ahve money.*lick*  =^^=

    Also currect CP protects the CP conglomernts more than the indavendauls that made the product but then this is about them and not the people that make or buy the product. *rolls eyes*

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  88. Black Dragon says:

    Gotta agree with you here; people just don’t need entertainment, and certainly have no right to them without paying for it.

    They don’t even rise to the point of things people don’t "need" but should have, such as education and free access to information.

    Video games are capitalism in its purest form; a product produced entirely for the pleasure of the consumer with a good chunk of disposable income with the sole purpose of making its producers as much profit as they can pry out of my wallet. Such noble-minded theories such as data being a "right" (which is news to me, anyway…) bounce uselessly off of the monolithic reality of economics. They’re producing these things to make money. People are using these things without giving them money. Those people should be stopped.

    PREFERABLY in a way that doesn’t plant a bunch of annoying copy-protection BS between me and my legally-purchased software, but then I tend to blame the pirates for that, not the victims.

  89. Mauler ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Video Games aren’t fats and sugars, you do actually need some of both to stay alive, but the veal and cavier of the food realm.  They are something that requires extra-ordinary care, have a poor shelf life, and are so removed from ordinary life that not eating them or eating them has no impact on your life.

    I would also take the point that food and water, while necessary for life, aren’t rights.  If you don’t have the right to someone elses food or water you certainly don’t have the right to their work be it media in any form.

  90. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Who says anything about altruism facts are funny in 30ish years alof of brands and IP/cps will be forgotten, the media industry is one that makes the brunt of its money on new products tis not going to hurt sht if CP/IPs out of publication are shared agomst the people, in fact its not hurting them now or its so completely imposable to track it can not be calulated.

    Instead of being a good lil sheep think outside the box the industry is lop sided what can we/it do to be better will for one drop the DMCA and reinstate fair use as it was, 2 right of return so the modern public can return the crap they are being fed if they have the compulsion to do so, it might even bring some of us black sheeple out of hiding and back into retail shops because we feel we have a leg to stand on within them.

    Buying used is great and all but holy fuck you ever think that sometimes we want to buy new and try and support the industry but are not willing to risk 50-790$ on a "game"?

     

    there are thigns that can be done for a better balance but the indutry is only mostly focuing on how tor ape sheep!

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  91. Brokenscope says:


    Fine then zippy

    If I create something, I can charge for people to see it and FUCK what society needs. If society really needs it then they will find the money to pay me for it, because I put an investment into it and because tomorrow I need to eat. Eventually it’s going to be public domain, and then everyone can have a field day with it.

    Copyright, as originally intended, is not bad and evil. It doesn’t club baby seals, or punch babies. It serves to allow creative people to live off their creativity. Which is a good thing.

    Also please stop using censorship incorrectly it is annoying and it is stupid.

     

  92. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Funny you are the ones that want no middle ground to decry video games are not media are not this are not that are protected just because, it could never possibly be that they are works of art like anything else and need to be shared within reason with the masses, by strictly focusing on profits you lose sight of the real reason why stuff is made to be seen!

    oh god I am sounding like a stoner more and more….oh well…I am brain fried after all…. 

    in the end a better balance needs to be struck in the industry than "ZOMG PROFITS!"

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  93. Brokenscope says:

    Well arguing with you is proving to be pointless, you writing is harder to read than normal, and your not answering any questions or comments directly, you are ignoring the argument and trying to pick at the means used to convey the argument.

  94. ZippyDSMlee says:

    What I am saying is the junk food analogy dose not work for mass media because like the old great works it can inspire and imagine the masses prehaps not as well but it dose so non the less and who are we to deny information to the masses if they are willing to get involved to find it, most don;t know don’t care they prefer to consume from the filter of whats for sale, I am saying that what is for sale is  not broad enough for humanity.
    We need to protect profits but not at the cost of completely  preventing media being "censored" for something as petty as money.

    Media is part of the culmination of humanity’s knowledge,wisdom heart and soul you can not lop off parts of it and say this is unneeded that is censorship it is not for us to say who may see what, media is is beyond profits and rules, but this dose not mean that rules and profits can not be reasonablely made fro it.

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  95. Brokenscope says:


    What the fuck are you on about? 

    I can make a tool and sell it to you; I don’t have to tell you how it works though. The flipside is that you are more than welcome to take my tool and figure out how it works. That knowledge can be attained by anyone willing to do one of 2 things, offer me compensation for it, or find it themselves. That is how the world works, aultruism is a nice thing, but it doesn’t get me food the next day. Someone somewhere has to be doing something for a profit or for trade so they can give someone something.

    If one person can find something then so can someone else. In fact when one person finds something it actually makes it easier for other people to find it.

  96. E. Zachary Knight says:

    I am sorry. I am lost. I am not going to attempt to make sense of anything you are saying. Just reading it makes my head hurt.

    Come to think of it, it is a briliant strategy. Confuse the oposition so bad that their only recourse is to leave. that way you can claim a victory.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
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    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  97. ZippyDSMlee says:

    So then context is for the "privileged" to decide? I think not best we not linger on pettiness in evolving souls and minds unless we stagante and damn them to to merely what can be sold.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  98. ZippyDSMlee says:

    And once that decision is made by those in power any form of media can become irrelevant to the "needs" of the people by the whim of the state going beyond simple moral censorship to full fledged brain washing, thus "media" is all forms of media not just what a few think they are.

    What I am getting at you can not separate general nuclear plans that couldbe easily used for crime or to reinvent nuclear power by some a group of freethinking students from books with "questionable morals" that make people stop and think from mass market media that once every now and then can inspire the world and because its not a total loss it much be protected for the world to see, how it is protected be it fair pricing or better distribution setups or good old fashioned shearingis up to fate as its always a mix of everything when huamns make something.

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  99. Brokenscope says:

    Somedays trying to talk to zippy is impossible, for more than one reason. I think today is one of them.

  100. Brokenscope says:

    Data is useless without context. Knowledge creates a context. Data can contain knowledge but knowledge must be applied data for it to be useful.

  101. E. Zachary Knight says:

    EZK wants games to be treated as media under normal circumstances yet now its not media its not a art form that can inspire or uplift.

    What in the world does that even mean? I am not saying that we shouldn’t have video gmaes or that they are somehow inferior to other artforms or entertainment. What I am saying is that they are not a necessity to life. We will not die or become incapacitated if we are denied entertainment. You seem to think otherwise however.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  102. E. Zachary Knight says:

    So you decide to change your stance and instead of comparing games to movies and novels you compare them to Leonardo and Classic Literature. That is like deciding a twinky is not comparable to a cupcake but to caviar. You are changing them from junk food to more expensive junk food.

    People can live without going to an art museum just as they can live without playing a game.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  103. ZippyDSMlee says:

    So lets then call video games childish entertainment that needs not to advance to the next stages of a art form in fact tis games not media it need not be compared to film or art…….sorry there is no past go with mew =^^=

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  104. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Data is information which is the seed of knowledge, all forms of media are data that opens facets of the mind, creativity is spurned that will shape people in subtle ways and sprun them to create or to imagine or lift them up, EZK wants games to be treated as media under normal circumstances yet now its not media its not a art form that can inspire or uplift…how shallow are we yet to think such things, we need to balance the needs of the people and mere profit.

    I have been thinking(which I know most of you say no please no stop…no really…sirsly man STOP THINKING!!! lulz)
    Anyway……

    Frair use needs to expanded to the point anything old is free to trade anything recent and or new that is being published is protected with digi distro coming out of its infancy there is no reason the CP owner can not maintain its publication thus keeping it fully protected and right of return to protect the public at large for poorly made media.

    And before you or anyone starts the media industry is a core industry of the world with trillions at their combined disposal they will always have the majority of the masses to sale product to and because of that the dredged illicit sharing dose not harm them even if doubled it will not harm them.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  105. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Let’s make an anology that your referenced and I hope that you can understand.

    Let’s takethis "food for your mind" thing and run with it. Media is food. Media includes all things printed, audio, video and interactive. Let’s compare that to the food pyramid. At the bottom, you have your grains. This is the staple of the human diet. This would be your general education. Learning basic human skills and such. Things like social skills, basic maths, phonics etc.

    Next you have Fruits and Vegies. These provide more specific nutrients for the bodies. Compare this to balancing your check book, managing debts, daily news etc.

    on top of that, you have your meats and dairies. These have high concentrations of certain protiens that you body needs. Compare this to your higher education. University degrees and such. This also includes political knowledge and other specialized knowledge.

    At the very top is your fats and sugars. Nothing here to offer the body other than fun foods. this is where movies, novels, video games, music all reside. These can be removed from the life of a person and not deny them any nurishment they need. It may make them a lot more boring, but they are still functional.

    Video games are not necessities of life. They are a nice perk to life but not a necessity. You have no valid claim to your desire to make them a necessity.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
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    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  106. Brokenscope says:


    Zippy you are confusing data and Knowledge.

    Even then your point is debatable.

     

  107. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Media is food for the brain and by media I mean books to music to video to yes thats right video games, but like food its not free but that dose not eman it can not be harvested or gotten cheaper than "industry standards".

    You seem to think media cannot expand the soul and the mind, you fail to realize the creativity of the human spirit by locking things to profit only, we are beyond such petty things, yes profits should be protected but not at the cost of stagnation of the mind.

    By enforcing vague protections on media to ensure a minimal amount of the populace can see it, you create sheep willing to to sway with whatever the industry has to offer, the current industry offers no balance thus I will fight it all I can by buying used and ensuring my money is well spent by previewing it first..

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  108. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Seriously? You think that having video games is a basic human right? I am sorry, but I fail to see your logic.

    If you take food away from a person, they will die. If you take education away from a person, they will become easily manipulated. If you take video games away from a person, they will be bored until they find a new way to entertain themselves.

    Hardly anything necessitating video games becoming a human right.

    Video games may be the product of data, but they are hardly on the level of scientific data, economic data, educational data etc. Now if video games were the only way the average person could have access to that other data, you may have a point, but as it stands, there are a myriad of other ways to gain access to that more relevant data.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  109. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Sorry nope, media is data the fulcrum which society broadens its horizons, you can not pigeon hole any form of data into being "protected" from public for a "price".
    Like I have said before there is a separation between rights given to make profit and rights given to us to use our brain to seek out digitals apples in the kings forest.

    If protecting data is so important then throw out the corpse that is fair use and the first sale doctrine, I strictly buy used thus it dose not matter if I buy my data or not, a victimless crime is most victimless indeed..

    And before you or anyone brings in but what about the small "X" they are SOL in a huge ocean they either manage to make a hit that sales like crazy or they do not a 30% boost in sales wont save them from the brink.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  110. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Video games are not "data" in the sense that data is usually associated with education. Education and learning are necessities like food, but video games are entertainment. Hardly a necessity to have video game entertainment. There are plenty of other free ways of being entertained.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
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    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  111. grifter_tm ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Now that’s just ignorance right there. What, only the Japanese, Americans and Europeans have the right to play video games now coz’ you can afford a $60 game? We’re talking about countries that considers $500 a month more than enough for a middle manager.

    You have to understand that people from 3rd world countries are really poor by U.S. and Japanese standards. However, their middle class tends to be pretty well off (they can afford to eat better, they own their own home, have their own bank account, own the latest mobile phones), by the 3rd world’s standards. That being said, they can afford different modes of entertainment, such as movies, TV’s, and video games.

    Now that being said, you can watch a movie in a 3rd world country for about $2.50. It’s probably around $8 in the U.S., depending on the day. You can get a full meal there for about a dollar. Remember, we’re talking about countries that considers $500 a month more than enough for a middle manager. Using these example, people would expect to buy video games at around the same scale (25% of the original price at the very least), but no. You can get an original GTA IV for about $90 in these countries. The copy I bought off at Gamestop cost about $60. A pirated copy costs about $3. If only companies have made better pricing decisions, maybe these people would’ve preferred buying orginal copies instead of getting pirated ones.

     

  112. Anomalous ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    The poor ones are usually the ones who sell the pirated stuff, not those who buy them, people who buy the pirated stuff are usually nothign but cheap bastards.

  113. Brokenscope says:

    Well stolen boxes and black market boxes.

    There is also the fact that not everyone is playing on the next gen systems.

  114. Artifex says:

    (my thoughts as well)

    Question +

    How is one forced to survive on the sale of pirated games, yet can afford to have the expensive hardware required to burn and sell said prirate copys on discs?

  115. Tolazytoapplyforalogon says:

    Question – If one can’t afford a playstation game, how does one afford a Playstation?

  116. Black Dragon says:

    I fail to see how this "complicates" the issue much. If people in poorer countries can’t afford video games, why are they playing them? Don’t they have more important priorities for their scarce resources, like building up their community and businesses or getting educated?

    As for the "jobs" issue, this is a black market; I could give the same diatribe about drug dealers, arms dealers, or smugglers. Just because an illegal activity supports people doesn’t make it any more legal, or morally acceptable.

    Even if a pirated game doesn’t equal a lost sale, it’s still theft, and it’s still wrong.

  117. Anonymous says:

    Thank god someone had the guts to say this somewhere besides a forum post. Some pirates are cheap assholes, but some literally cannot afford the product. It’s time to stop simplifying the issue into a single cause with a single solution.

  118. Jeremy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:


    A Brain leads to having an imagination as we all know imagination leads to people wanting to create entertainment; we also all know entertainment created rock and roll, movies, and those damn video games and least you forget we all know rock and roll and by association video games lead to sex and drugs therefore we need to ban brains because they can be indirectly related to a concept you may not agree with, find offensive or is down right wrong.

     

    Viva Lobotomies

  119. Anonymous says:

    I meant in the whole, y’know, destroying human life aspect. Comparing DVD bootlegging to drugs, aslavery, and arms manufacturing is nothing more than an attempt to create opposition to piracy through association with strong negative emotions. It’s not a rational or useful argument.

  120. Jeremy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I thought that was funny too, but I agree I wish I had some spot light in this industry cause I would spout the same crap I posted above, but alas I don’t beyond my comments on gamepolitics and my rants to friends =P.

  121. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Insted of regoin locking lock the lanage/text to that regoin, that will forever be far more effective mass sale wise and even not regoin locking might create business to buy more media in that regoin.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  122. ZippyDSMlee says:

    then they will gain a boom from the low region and a slight loss from the other, everyone wins, I got 2 10$ games NEW PC games they are in English but for the installer which it and the box art was made for  Russia.(GoW and Turok are ze games)

    ^^

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  123. Brokenscope says:

    region locks among other things.

    You simply don’t allow the games to play on consoles from the more profitable regions. While Im sure this will piss some folks off. You could also reduce the online functionality, or only sell a localized version of the game that can only be played in a local language.

  124. ZippyDSMlee says:

    If that can’t be done they will have to deal with the problem they partly created since they regionalize to up the the price and not of set losses due to null zones or black markets they need to to take the precived loss to break even in those areas or continue to lose possible profits due to not wanting to leave the safe zone they have walled them selfs in other the decades.

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  125. Artifex says:

    What’s to stop people in those more profitable regions just importing the version from less profitable regions?

  126. E. Zachary Knight says:

    True, but when you have more profitable regions (US, Japan, Europe) earning back the development costs, it becomes much easier to lower prices in less profitable and poorer regions.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
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    E. Zachary Knight
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    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  127. Brokenscope says:


    Okay first calm the fuck down, lose the whining, and no one here "hates you".

    No one said sell the game at a cost. If the sale of the game covers the disks, and the labor to make the disk, you’re still making money. 5$ towards covering developments costs is still 5$ in the right direction.

    Hell if they could sell a full price game to the folks who make bootlegs they would still be making MORE money. You’re still making more money. As long as you sell a copy of the game for more than it costs to make that copy you’re making money.

    See that is the great fucking thing about software, once you have a functional product, making more copies costs very little.

    Here just to make sure I get the point across.

    If a guy in the Philippines pirates a game your company makes no money. If a guy in the Philippines buys a 10$ copy of the game that cost 4$ to make and distribute… you made 6$ more than if he pirated it.

    To you understand what is going on here?

  128. E. Zachary Knight says:

    I don’t think anyone is saying that you should sell your games below cost. What is being suggested here, is that in order to stem the tide of piracy, maybe they should be more cost cometitive with the pirates. That is not to say that you should give your game away because of p2p, but when you can give them value for the buck over the pirated copy, it would sell better. The world is a very large place. You can cover the costs of development in more profitable regions while lowering costs in poorer regions.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
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    E. Zachary Knight
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    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  129. Helpless Kitten says:

    Is anyone else from the industry going to chime in here?  Lets face it, not all games will ever be wildly popular enough to sell enough copies that a 10$ or 5$ price tag will pay for the game’s development.  Games are not cheap to make!

    Don’t give me that bull about independent games either.  When an independent game house puts out a 40 hour RPG or strategy game, sells it for 5$ a shot and can still afford to pay their employees then we can talk.  I’ve done art for independent games and half the time you’re lucky if they have enough to buy you a pizza!  This is not just something we do for fun, this is our livelihood!  Would you insist that a carpenter sell his work for less than it costs him to craft the item?

    Why do you hate game developers so much?  Why do you insist that the items we make are worthless and that the time and effort we put into then is valueless?  We have mortgages and children and elderly parents just like everyone else!

  130. Brokenscope says:


    The equipment to pirate ps1, older pc, xbox ,and ps2 games, are really not that expensive when you consider that organized crime tends to be involved and a fairly large target market exists to buy your wares.

    It won’t take to long to turn a profit.

     

  131. Artifex says:

    Packaging and disks only account for a very small percentile of the overall cost in creating a game. Reducing the costs at those ends would only reduce the retail price of games by pennys, at best.

    We’re not talking about slight reductions in price when comparing the cost of buying a bootleg to the retail price of a game. Most of the pirates in asain markets sell the bootlegs for less than $10, how is any game developer going to compete with that?

  132. E. Zachary Knight says:

    I like the idea presented here. If you cannot stop pirates, make your product a more cost competetor to the pirates. Reduce packaging, use less fancy disks. Make the game as cheap as possible. Lower the Price! Makes sense.

    Too bad the publishers can’t see things that way.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
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    E. Zachary Knight
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    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  133. Loudspeaker says:

    As much sense as this makes you’ll never get publishers to see the light.  It won’t change until a publisher experiments with the idea and finds it boosts profits.  Then the sheep will fall in line.  Until then it’s simply a dream.  *sigh*

    -Loudspeaker
    "Volume helps to get a point across but sharp teeth are better."

  134. Zerodash. ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Wow, I guess that anything is OK when an economy is created. 

    Lets all go support human-trafficing, opium trading, "protection money", underground arms dealing, and dog fighting.  After all, those things create an underground economy that supports thousands. 

  135. Jeremy ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Indeed its provocative but most developer/publishers will never agree with it. 

    Let’s face it most companies have this insane belief that if you pirate something that you would have paid for it if the piracy wasnt avaliable.  I can honestly say they are wrong on that assumption (look at Metillica they blamed Napster for their lost revenue and not their crappy music let’s just say Napster’s demise didnt suddenly see Lars with more money). 

    Now if you take a step further as the above author says and place it in a country in which piracy is the only possible avenue of affording these games then why on earth would you ever expect them to suddenly pay for it because you took down the piracy ring.  Especially since most of these countries a 40 dollar game is pretty much a month salary  (if not more) …. hmm choice between starving to death or video game well that one is a simple choice.  Now if I had the choice between one meal or a 1 dollar pirated game hmmm I might miss the meal for the chance of escapeism from the harsh reality I live in.

    Though I still have to say my favorite thing I see is the idiot publishers/developers that try copyright protection because god knows that slows down piracy and doesn’t just frustrate the people who actually bought their product(hmmm seem to recall Sony placing a rootkit on people’s machine who actually bought their crap and the pirates having a rootkit free version with in a day of release, yeah that slowed down those damn pirates).

     

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