TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

July 22, 2008 -

Is New York's video game law necessary?

Is it constitutional?

Dr. Michael Rich, Director of the Center for Media and Child Health at Harvard Medical School, and Adam Thierer, Senior Fellow at the Progress & Freedom Foundation in Washington, D.C., squared off on the Bloomberg network to debate the merits of the New York law signed last night by Gov. David Paterson.

Thierer believes the law is unnecessary and will be struck down as unconstitutional. Dr. Rich worries about the training abilities of games in relation to violence and wants social science injected into the game rating process.

GP: We agree that the New York law is unnecessary. However, if the video game industry doesn't challenge it - and it's not at all clear that they will - then there will be no finding that it is unconstitutional.

So, why wouldn't the game biz challenge the law?

Because it has no effect on their bottom line. The content ratings and parental controls mandated by the law are already in place. While the industry might argue that the state is compelling this sort of speech, it's an argument that exists in a somewhat theoretical realm. In practice, the industry is already meeting the requirements. Game publishers and retailers would rather do business than argue the finer points of constitutional law. Moreover, for the game biz there's a political downside to fighting this part of the law. Doing so would be tantamount to saying, "Yes, we have ratings and parental controls, but we might want to take them away someday." Such a position would not be comforting to parents and would provide ammunition to critics. 

The law's mandated advisory council on video game violence enjoys First Amendment rights of its own. People, government bureaucrats included, are free to study and discuss whatever they like. Besides, the video game publishers and retailers will occupy two of the 16 seats on the advisory council.

As to Dr. Rich, while he may have desire to include social science in game ratings, that is not part of the New York law. The statute gives New York no power whatsoever over the ESRB rating process.

And, we note, the announcer gets it completely wrong in his opening when he says that the law includes "tough fines for retailers who sell adult games to kids." There's nothing like that in the legislation.

Adam Thierer lays out his position in detail at the Technology Liberation Front.


Comments

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Thanks good job;

Btw, I think Atari and Midway will drop out too, but mostly travesti because  these guys have done nothing travesti or little and need to start saving costs. and dizi izle

YES.

Now I don't have to get off my ass for the important shit anymore!

Whats next, ordering pizza from Xbox live?

Wait... I think that sounds like a good idea.

But I think voting should MAKE you get off your ass, and see outside or a second while you go vote. I mean, your picking the president of the United States of America for God's Sake... least you can do is drive down there and punch out a card.

 

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Gallagher can araç kiralama say all he wants, but I strongly rent a car believe it's due to his crappy leadership and E3 being a joke. ESA's Board of Directors need to find a way to get out rent a car of this horrid contract with this Bush cronie before there's no one left on the Board.

Btw, I think Atari and Midway will drop out too, but mostly travesti because  these guys have done nothing ttnet vitamin or little and need to start saving costs.

 

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

So yeah, the only way this law would be blocked is by the ECA to point out to the court that the government copied its own hard work into this piece of useless legislation and I am sure those politicians would not be happy at all. Another thing here, I see "unconsitional" thrown alot around here, and I also see the violent negative reaction that it is met with almost everywhere, but in this case i feel that the reaction is unjustified, for what I can make out what many in the anti-video game are trying to do is introduce laws which say that you can't be a 12 year old and walk into a store and buy GTA, and I whole heartily support them in this measure, and if you really feel that your, or your kids rights are being violated, buy it for your kids, really its that simple, the state deems that content A is not suitable for people a below a certain age and believe that the state is wrong in this conclusion, then by all means, buiy your son GTA, if you happen to be said son, I don't beleiev that as a child that you have the power to make a informed decesion and that the power of state and parent makes that decesion for you.

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Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Like I said in another articals comments, not chalangeing this only lets them gain ground for passing laws that are not redudent.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Well, the ESA and ESRB don't seem too keen on upholding the integrity of the constitution. Well that may be good and all if they want to focus on the bottom line- but if this law slips by, what would they do when another unconstitutional bill really hits home? Maybe outlawing games that involve drug content, for example- that's going to take a toll on game publishers for certain games, and then people would be wondering, "they didn't mind the other law, why do they suddenly care now?" And it will be seen as an act of double standards- only caring about unconstitutional laws when it affects you financially.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Having read though some of the legsilation. one thing hits me

Copyright Infringement

The New York Government is taking the creddit for laws that the Videogame Industry did all by itself.

So yeah, the only way this law would be blocked is by the ECA to point out to the court that the government copied its own hard work into this piece of useless legislation and I am sure those politicians would not be happy at all.

I really hope some people within the Industry stand up and fight this, or else I hate to see politicians thinking they are doing something right and try to take the credit for it.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Next thing you know you'll be labeled a terrorist for owning and or playing these so called "Violent videogames"  I just love america.  Only place I know where most people see stuff like this on TV and go "Oh please big Brother! Take my liberties away even more!  Save the children! Were far too incompetent to raise them on our own!"  This is a non issue being made into an issue.

Im so sick of these controlling laws and bills being set fourth, and all these sheep following with it.  I really hope america wakes up soon, or we'll all be playing hello kitty island adventure with subiminal messages "WAR is good only if it means $$ for your elected officials!"

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Amazing. Someone else that thinks of others as sheep. I praise you for your thinking.

The government should just let the parents be the ones to actually make the decisions. The government doesn't know the minds of every single child. They don't know how each and every single child will react to certain things. They just assume that most of the violence is caused by video games. But with most of America being sheep and the government their shepherds things are just going to get worse because the government knows they can do whatever they want and most of the people will just blindly follow. It is up to the parents to teach their kids right from wrong and real from fictional. It is also up to them to decide when their children are ready for things such as violent games. NOT the governments. So why must the government now be involved with the ratings? It is pointless, stupid, and idiotic if you ask me.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

That Dr. Rich, to me, seems to have in his mind that ALL video games are played by only children.
Or am i the only one who feels that way from the video?

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

I can see some of Dr Rich's points, but the fast food opinion throws me off.  Kids (at any age) can get to a McDonalds and buy a fattening, unhealthy hamburger despite warnings and so on. In fact, kids do. (Obesity epedemic anyone?) Point being is that it is not 'Social Science' nor lawmakers that decide what is, and is not socially acceptable, it is the general population.

 

---- There is a limit for both politicians against video games, and video games against politicians.
http://www.goteamretard.com

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

I haven't ever met or heard of a social scientist who didn't come off as a total dipshit. The broad generalizations used in that science are literally painful.

 

-Entertainment isn't the reason the world sucks. It's the reason we know the world sucks. For information on games and psychology, look up: Jonathan Freedman(2002)Block & Crain(2007)Grand Theft Childhood, by Harvard researchers Larry Kutner&Cheryl Olson

Reality/////////////////////////////////////Fantasy. Seems like a pretty thick line to me...

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Even though I disagree with Dr. Michael Rich, at least he seems down to earth. But I completely disagree the fast food argument.

The biggest problem is that the ESRB is so tough that people think rated M is nothing.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

There's a very good reason that this law can break down constitutional rights that people keep forgetting.  The ESRB is privately run and voluntary.  It essentially can close up doors whenever they feel like it.  Or maybe they'll just someday run out of funding.

Ah, but now there's a law that says that a rating MUST be there.  So in the unlikely event that something happens to the ESRB, how could games be sold in New York (or any of the other States that are bound to follow suit with this "feel good" but useless bill)?  Why, the government will step in and create their own ratings system, of course!  Publicly funded, oversight by people needing family votes for reelection, the works.

The law in and of itself is harmless.  But it is just one more inch through the front door that legislators have been trying to kick in for years.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

If the government starts rating games it won't be the end of the world (it will be wasted taxpayer money that used to be spent by the industry). The government still needs proof of harm before it can demand that 18+ or 17+ games not be sold to children.

And if we get a new rating system that may mean the dreaded Ao rating de facto ban will be dead and that an M rating or a 17+ rating will no longer exist.

Of course a government run system will probably be less accurate then the ESRB and might require full games instead of just clips.

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Actually, if you read the law, games only need a rating if they get one. Confused yet?

E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Bwah?

'The real issues are not getting out to parents and children that video games may or may not effect them in positive or negative ways'

'There's good evidence that they can do harm to some children'

Someone has no gorramn idea what hes talking about.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Some children meaning those who are aggressive or all ready had a tendency towards violence before they touched a controller.

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

If the ESA doesn't fight this, then Mike Gallagher needs to be fired as ESA president. Straight and simple.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Agreed

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Amazing... First Firearms then transfat, now Videogames... whats next...

Their not going to stop until every little bit of joy life has to offer is taken away from us and given only to the privledged few.  This is against The Constitution if they ban, limit or restrict gaming which is Free Speech. 

I just recommend to you all ... to vote this election year against those communists and liberals who are doing this. 

Also be sure to excercise your 2nd Amendment Right!  Go to the range... buy yourself a rifle... you never know you may love target shooting or hunting

Thanks

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Guns aren't my thing, but as long as you're responsible and not prone to fits of uncontrollable rage, I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed them.

 

Heck, I think civilians should be allowed to own fully functioning tanks.  Or at least the Batmobile from Batman Begins.  That thing is awesome.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Communists and liberals?  Both leftists and rightists love to bash on video games.  Everybody loves to bash video games. 

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Yeah really check out Mitt Romney's ancient 'Ocean of Filth' campaign trailer where he likened violent video games TV porn and whatnot to an ocean of filth that he promised to clean up.

And then of course there's the religious right that loves to bash anything that goes against their religious views.

Oh and uh if lots of gamers started buying or training with guns when people still think that games teach people to kill or can be used as training simulators ... well that would probably cause a panic if the news media ever caught on.

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

 everything buy the fines is already in place

but yes fight it

 

censorship is like meth  VERY BAD

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

So true. So true.

-Entertainment isn't the reason the world sucks. It's the reason we know the world sucks. For information on games and psychology, look up: Jonathan Freedman(2002)Block & Crain(2007)Grand Theft Childhood, by Harvard researchers Larry Kutner&Cheryl Olson

Reality/////////////////////////////////////Fantasy. Seems like a pretty thick line to me...

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

I have to agree, that it needs to be fought. It may not hold power over them, but I see as by not challenging it, it's like opening a door for more to come in. They have fought every time so far, and have won. They shouldn't stop now, just because it holds no real power.

Switch

Okay, having read all the posts here I have decided that I do think this law should be challenged for the principle of it all.

 

-Entertainment isn't the reason the world sucks. It's the reason we know the world sucks. For information on games and psychology, look up: Jonathan Freedman(2002)Block & Crain(2007)Grand Theft Childhood, by Harvard researchers Larry Kutner&Cheryl Olson

Reality/////////////////////////////////////Fantasy. Seems like a pretty thick line to me...

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Why am I seeing GTA3 being presented? I thought that game was long past. I guess it kinda does make sense since people still bring up the original Doom.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

In the USA, they came first for the videogames, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a gamer;

And then they came for the pornography, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a pornographer;

And then they came for the web pages, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a web surfer;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Dude there is no way they will be able to touch pornography.

If they ban it in one coutnry the porn companies will just move their servers to a different country and continue developing it and hosting it there.

The internet is for porn, and don't you forget it.

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Well put.

-Entertainment isn't the reason the world sucks. It's the reason we know the world sucks. For information on games and psychology, look up: Jonathan Freedman(2002)Block & Crain(2007)Grand Theft Childhood, by Harvard researchers Larry Kutner&Cheryl Olson

Reality/////////////////////////////////////Fantasy. Seems like a pretty thick line to me...

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

All I know is unconstitutional laws should be fought at every courner and every single time.  Letting one go will allow more to follow.  Erroneous judgement should be fought.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

The whole point is that the law is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. If there was a way I could fight it, I'd represent myself if I had to, and take it to court. Alas, I am only 17 and am not the best lawyer ever, but SOMEONE needs to stand up, or the whole industry (gamers included) will suffer in the long run

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Judging by the accounts presented by GP, this may not go to court unless EFF, PFF and the ECA do it. It seems that the ESA and the EMA couldn't care less. It doesn't effect tehir bottom line. IT doesn't attemtp to censor. But it does waste time, money and the constitution.

E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Here's a freebie, ESA.

Spend a little cash to make a commercial that informs the public that their government is passing a bill that does not need to be passed. Inform the masses that their government is using their tax dollars to do this. Then challenge it in court.

You need to do more than educate parents about the videogames ratings system. You need to educate them about the slimy tactics their own political oficials are using to waste taxpayer money. If you need help, go on Colbert or the Daily Show.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

Ya waste money to tell people someone else is wasting money.  Makes total sense.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

It could save money in the long run, stop stupid anti-video game laws from being passed, right?

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

I'd rather the ESA spend their money than "our" government spending our money.

Re: TV Debate on New York Video Game Law

It's true because I heard it on TV.

That's the problem of this bill and why it needs to be fought. It's about image.

The government is stepping in to regulate videogames. It doesn't matter that it lacks teeth or that the provisions are already voluntarily in place. Videogames are going to be regulated by the government. Why? They must be dangerous? It's about time they started fining retailers for peddiling that smut. They're not? Why not? Obviously these games are dangerous!

And the ESA probably won't say a word. A silence as profound as when Fox News slandered Mass Effect.

 
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NeenekoI have met some real jerks and slimeballs in gender activism, but when I hear the idea that there are many 'not nice' people it comes across as code for 'uppity people who do not know their place'.09/19/2014 - 12:10pm
Andrew EisenKrono - Many of the people pushing gender issues aren't nice people? I'm sure not everyone's a sweatheart but so far, everyone I've seen with such a critique had absolutely nothing to back them up.09/19/2014 - 10:46am
InfophileI think there's a qualitative difference between a site and a hashtag though. GP can ban anyone from commenting, so they can have the image they want. But anyone can use any hashtag and try to poison it. Granted, that hasn't happened to the other one yet09/19/2014 - 10:13am
E. Zachary KnightKrono, your comparison to GP does not work. We do not need to get rid of GP, because no one associates GP with trolls and abuse. The same can't be said for gamergate.09/19/2014 - 10:09am
Krono@Michael You don't remember the "other hashtag" because no one actually uses it. We're talking 836,983 uses of #gamergate over it's lifetime, and 8,119 for the "alternative". 47,129 uses on the 18th vs 41. With #notyourshield at 140,133 uses & 5,209 uses09/19/2014 - 9:48am
Kronoresearch it. Changing tags to get away from trolls would be like wiping GamePolitics and restarting under a new name to get away from people calling Jack Thompson a filthy names in the comments section.09/19/2014 - 9:35am
Sleaker@quiknkold - seems like all that page is is a bunch of random developer opinions and rumors that we're supposedto do what with?09/19/2014 - 9:31am
Kronoas an opportunity to push back against them. It's one of the things muddling the issue. @conster A new hashtag would do nothing to improve anything. Trolls will simply follow to the new hashtag, and it will confuse the issue for anyone attempting to09/19/2014 - 9:25am
Krono@Andrew aaah. Yes, I'm sure there's some of that. Part of the problem is many of the people pushing gender issues are not very nice people. Basically the latest incarnation of moralists we've seen in the past couple decades. Naturually some will take this09/19/2014 - 9:23am
quiknkoldhttp://www.nichegamer.net/2014/09/real-gamedevs-sound-off-regarding-the-gamergate-controversy/09/19/2014 - 8:35am
MaskedPixelanteMeanwhile, in news that actually DOES matter, Scotland voted "NO" to Scottish independance.09/19/2014 - 8:20am
ConsterSeriously? "We shouldn't make a new hashtag - it's better to associate ourselves with psychos than to decrease our visibility"?09/19/2014 - 7:54am
Michael ChandraI forget what it is exactly, but there already is another hashtag that some use, exactly to separate themselves from the abusive behaviour. So don't bother lying to me.09/19/2014 - 7:06am
quiknkold2 to 3 or more09/19/2014 - 6:53am
quiknkoldMichael Chandra : I'll say this. The only reason they havent used another hashtag is because it would look like a form of dividing the arguement. Using another Hashtag has come up, and they feel like if they made a new hashtag, it'll split the debate from09/19/2014 - 6:53am
Michael ChandraYou want a debate? Build a wall between you and the poisoned well. Make clear you despise it, despise the behaviour. Then get into the other issues you are troubled with, and don't say a single word again about the poisoned well.09/19/2014 - 3:46am
Michael ChandraAnd someone claiming #notyourshield was to be taken serious, when chatlogs show they wanted it going to hide even more harassment behind? Yeah, not buying a word you're saying. You poisoned your own well.09/19/2014 - 3:45am
Michael Chandraallegedly fired over giving a game a mediocre review and the company threatened to pull ads? Sorry but I ain't buying this.09/19/2014 - 3:45am
Michael ChandraBut people arguing this is horrible and just about ethics, even though there's very little support that journalistic integrity was actually violated here, while they never spoke up when a journalist was09/19/2014 - 3:43am
Michael ChandraIf people start with condemning the way GamersGate was used as a misdirection, then use a better hashtag, that would work in convincing me they mean it.09/19/2014 - 3:43am
 

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