It’s not always easy to predict which video games are going to upset people.
One of the games that debuted at last week’s E3 was Sony and Titan Studios’ upcoming PSN title Fat Princess, a cartoony, capture-the-flag game in which the object is to rescue your princess from the enemy’s dungeon. The hook is that the enemy is plumping up your princess with cake, making her more and more difficult to haul back.
It’s cute. It’s colorful. It’s surprisingly bloody. And, from many reports, it’s a lot of fun. But, according to Joystiq, at least two feminist bloggers have taken issue with the fat part of Fat Princess.
Shakesville’s Melissa McEwan says in an open letter to Sony:
[Fat Princess] looks and sounds just adorable—but the only thing I can't figure out is why anyone would want to rescue a fat princess in the first place, since everyone knows that fat girls are unlovable human garbage at whom any sensible bloke would sooner hurl invective than cast a longing glance... I'm positively thrilled to see such unyielding dedication to creating a new generation of fat-hating, heteronormative assholes.
Meanwhile, Feminist Gamers’ Mighty Ponygirl offers her take:
Honestly, the “core game mechanics” are brilliant, and if I didn’t care one whit about the objectification of women or fat-bashing, I would think this was the best thing since… well, Team Fortress 2…
Instead of running out into the forest to find cake to fatten up the princess with, why not go out and find gold (which is a lot heavier than cake) to stuff into a treasure chest. The more gold in the chest, the heavier it would be, and the harder it would be to carry.
Oh, but that’s not as “cute” as cake and fat chicks. Right.
For his part, Titan Studios' art director, James Green, said in an email to Joystiq:
Does it make it better or worse that the concept artist (who designed the look, characters, everything) is a girl?
-Reporting from San Diego, GP Correspondent Andrew Eisen prefers ice cream...
Comments
Yay for Feminists!! Gotta love people who seek controversy. Good old made up controversy.
I also love the fact that one of the key people in making the game is a woman. Good stuff.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
Lord knows if it was skinny annorexic supermodel Princess they would be complaining its showing girls that you have to be skinny to be considered pretty....
Yes, there is no winning with Feminists. They think that women should be placed upon some pedistal and worshipped solely because they are a woman.
Even treating them like on of the guys is belittling to them.
I am just glad that not all women are feminists.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
So what did we learn this year?
You can shoot a black zombie without it being considered racist and you can't have a princess with a weight problem because it will apparently be considered chub hatin......wonderful year 2008 has been in the world of video game controversy. xD
Sorry I meant you can't shoot a black zombie without it being considered racist.......I should really learn that edit feature for posting. xD
Not to mention that if you do actually act like you are putting them on a pedestal they then bitch about special treatment and how they dont need to be looked at differently. There really is no winning with some women.
Someone sure has a lot of bitterness. What's the matter. Didn't your mama breastfeed you?
Those darn feminists. No exaggerated female charicature is good enough for them.
I bet you they also object to depicting women as uptight, lying bitches and selfless, chaste angels. Clearly, you can't win.
In all honesty, this is worse than the RE5 comments. In the case of the first person, YOU ARE RESCUING THE FAT PRINCESS! If you really hated her you would never rescue her and thus the game would never end. The second person "ponygirl" ignores the fact that, if you replace the princess with gold, it removes an important peice to the game itself, rendering it boring, or without some interesting point to it.
On a side note, when you go to those pages and read everything (including comments) then you feel a little bit of pitty for those two ladies....until you start to read their comments in response to genuine people commenting about their dissenting opinions. Those two ladies are as bad as any troll I have seen in a while, especially because they have Mod priveleages.
"but the only thing I can't figure out is why anyone would want to rescue a fat princess in the first place, since everyone knows that fat girls are unlovable human garbage at whom any sensible bloke would sooner hurl invective than cast a longing glance"
And yet, the object of the game is to rescue her... Me thinks they be missing the point here.
--- "Life's short and hard, like a body building elf." -- The Bloodhound Gang
Don't they always, I'm refering to game critics in case your wondering.
Also, I just hate feminists so much.
To everyone seething at feminists as a cohesive group...
At the core of feminism is the simple idea that men and women should be considered equals, and to a wide extent we've achieved this. Sure, there's still sexism, particularly in academia (as a grad student in physics I've had piles of experience with that first hand) and compared to many fields of work it's received comparatively little attention. In the past fifty years, there have been no female nobel laureates in either physics or chemistry, and _never_ any in economics. The debate about why this disparity between men and women in the academic world, particularly in the hard sciences, could provide enough material to last for weeks. Personally, I think it's a combination of societal conditioning to think men are better fitted for the hard sciences and the simple fact that making a career in academia requires an almost obsessive drive and is not conducive to raising a family at all. Many women-I'd even go as far to say the majority-who consider an scientific career also want children. Working the insane hours required to be successful in such a competitive and stressful field doesn't allow for this goal that many women put high on their list.
But I digress...
Real feminists don't go squawking around about a cute, harmless video game. Comparing these nutcases to the wider feminist movement makes about as much sense as comparing every muslim to the radicals who blow themselves up in supermarkets.
And to the women involved: I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find something worthwhile to do with your time.
Personally I object to feminism. Just as I object to any other group that sets out for equality but ends up somehow going on about how their side is actually "better" than the side they feel is getting the better end of the stick.
Ofcourse I can only really talk about the local feminist movement, I don't know anything about the global movement, or if there even is one (Though I bet it exists). But if their local operations are any indication they come off as straight edged male haters. I'm all for equality, but bullying and bullshit arguementation does not endear their cause to me.
As an example I got called a rapist by a feminist. Not just "a feminist", a active member of their movement, and infact the entire rally at which they were. Why? Because males are the clear majority those who commit sexual offenses. Ergo, me being a guy must mean I'm a rapist.
Excuse me while I go finish my rape quota for the day.
Huge posters, fliers, pins and such with the slogan "Men Rape" was spread all over the place. Also spread around were calendars with heartfelt pleas from "Women" to "Men" about stopping domestic abuse, to not do this or that. It's so inane. If I put up a sign saying "Women Whore Themselves" what does that accomplish exactly? It's most likely true (doing no research) that the majority of prostitutes are women...and so what? That in no way reflects on women in general, nor does it say anything about the woman sitting next to you. All it would do is attract men who most likely have no respect for women. It'd gather them around so we can exchange manly comments about our latest oppression of women or a racial minority. Then we'd top off the evening with some right 'ol sexual abuse!
This is my experience of the feminist movement. The rape thing is especially prominent in my mind since it was when my patience and understanding with them just gave out and I had to speak out.
Feminism to me is "We want equality, but we all know women are better". If what you want is equality then call it that, call it equality. Be an Equalist. I've seen this happen in other things as well. Subject of racial discrimination, where they sound fine at first. And then all of a sudden they draw up all these "facts" and how this or that race is not as good physically or mentally as they are, so discriminating against them, the clearly superior race, is ludicrous.
And in the end, who really cares about what feminists think? I can certainly agree on some of the things they're striving for. Equal career, salary and education is just how things "should" be. But it's this undertone of "you chauvinist bastards" that I take offense to.
Like the first poster who talks about how nobody loves fat girls. Who the hell is she to say that? What a, excuse my french, bitch. Since clearly anyone slightly over their BMI or that does not look like a cover girl is "fat" I, as a guy, take offense to that statement. Sure, it was meant in a humerous way, but they are the ones now perpetuating this fashion of thin is beautiful and that fat people need to be ignored.
I was reminded of another incident. There was alot of chatter among feminist around here some time ago about men holding doors for women, offering to take their bags and things of that nature. That this clearly meant that men saw women as being weaker and inferior and thus they needed to help the noobs out. I don't know, it just sounds polite to me offering to help someone with their bags, be they male or female. Or to hold the door for someone, or to offer someone who is clearly cold your coat. It's just arguing for arguements sake when you oppose people being polite to you. If you don't want the coat, fine, reject it. If you don't want help, fine, reject it. But to say that this means that men in general HATE you and want to discriminate...just makes them weak silly bitches! (oh snap!)
(I'm OP)
Wow... I've never had such an experience.
The plain truth of the matter is men are subjected to just as much sexism as women, if not more nowadays. I'm a women, so I can't give personal anecdotes to support that statement, but your story as well as the behavior I've observed between my male friends and colleagues lend great support to it.
Perhaps it's time to rename feminism to something that tackles all sexism and promotes people being who they are, rather than something that inspires so much vitriol.
Something I would wonder, is the 'fat princess' actually being portrayed in a negative light? Besides being difficult to get back to the castle.
If she isn't I would question if this is really 'fat bashing' as opposed to 'they put a fat female in a video game so any portral must be negative"
Now, onto James Green's question..... actually it makes it much worse. If you watch the various waves of feminism, each group tends to save it's highest scorn for other women who do not meet there specific cultural mindset. Once the 'authority of men' is decreased, since humans are, well, humans, you have a power vacuum that quickly gets filled up with alpha women who, just like thier male counterparts, want a say over how culture pans out.
A good example is looking at the morality clashes between the 'sex positive' 4th wave and the 'sex negative' 3rd wave. The sex negative group heaps piles of scorn on the sex positive group for being 'the tools of men' or 'pandering to men' etc etc,.. so essentially in fighting for freedom of choice they want to make damn sure that all women choose the model THEY like, otherwise they are traitors.
Of course, none of this is exclusive to feminism or even liberal movements.
'S human mentality, I suppose. ;)
- In the beginning, there was nothing. So God started making stuff.
Pretty much yeah ^_~
One gains status and power by having others say the same thing. Being able to claim you speak for a larger group is better then a smaller group, so it becomes important to pain those within your group that are against you as 'not really speaking for us' is an important step.
Yeah, it's like the criticism of WALL-E for (MINOR SPOILERS?) having ridiculously obese humans in it. One: of course they were fat and lethargic; did critics somehow miss the extended explanations as to why? Two: they could have made them objects of ridicule, and yet they explicitly didn't. It was a completely sympathetic portrait of people of weight, and people who insist on being offended really need to take a deep breath and get over themselves.
Seriously, these chicks need to get over themselves. In case they haven't heard, having boobs no longer causes us to earn smaller salaries and have fewer rights. As many feminists are so fond of pointing out, this is the twenty-first century. True, there is still sexism, just as there is still racism, nationalism, etc., and the sad truth is, there always will be. The key is fighting discrimination where it really is, and it is not in this video game.
If anything, maybe this will help girls think twice about starving themselves to get skinny. Then maybe I can convince the rain to stop and Thompson will give up his crusade (I can hope, can't I?).
Wait nationalism is bad? When the hell did that happen ...
WWII and the rise of nationalist idiology.
Even if the word ment something positive at one time it is now associated with negative behavior in the name of your nation. So in many ways, something is 'nationalism' when it starts becoming unhealthy. At least from an socio-linguistic perspective, websters probably disagrees.
American patriotism differs greatly from European nationalism.
riiiight.
No. No it does not.
That is quite a subjective opinion especially in the world court.
wah wah wah wah.
although i do find this pretty funny:
For his part, Titan Studios' art director, James Green, said in an email to Joystiq:
Its like Capcom saying they have black friends. hopefully it works. I didn't even know about this title but know I'm pretty interested.
It's more akin to Capcom revealing that the designers and script writers for RE5 are African, but yeah.
Meh. I don't get why people freak out about RE5. It's set in Africa. The zombies are going to be black. If it was set where I'm from, Maine (the whitest state in the US), the zombies would be white. Would it be considered racist then?
Nooooo... because then you'll be killin all those rascists as honkeys...
You know, strictly speaking, I'm getting kind of tired of, in this country, the only people who can't speak their mind about whatever are ironically and supposedly the race keeping all others down...
While you may or may not be right the truth is the power in thies country is primarily held by white men. Until there is a more equal distribution of power and wealth there will always be one group or another claiming oppression. It sucks for the poor white man who doesn't have a say but come on now they sort of blew that oppritunity themselves with turning a blind eye to Jim Crow laws and in some cases orginization of illeagle vigilante groups.
While the 50s and 60s seems centuries old let us remember that those in power right now are the boomers who were the ones to ignore the wrongs the United States commited back then.
You are a perfect example of not letting go. Who cares who's in power or whats going on. Treat each person on an Individual basis. I am a white male, and I'll tell you what, the only reason I would appear racist to ANYONE is when I point out that some of the negative stereotypes about certain minorities are true in a lot of cases. Yet, still, I treat each person as an individual, without any pre-concieved notions about anything. Which is more than I can say about alot of minority individuals. The past is the past, the present is now, lets stop living in the past, like so many people seem to do.
"the only reason I would appear racist to ANYONE is when I point out that some of the negative stereotypes about certain minorities are true in a lot of cases"
Examples, please. You can say something like that without qualifying it.
Well you know what they say every stereotype has a grain of truth to it (or in some cases used to have a grain of truth to it).
You know, we didn't see the Spanish up in arms about RE4 while Leon Kennedy was slaughtering legions of bewitched Spanish peasants, or white Americans up in arms while Chris Redfield mowed down hordes of white people in, oh, every other Resident Evil game....
I'm just saying...
I belive that my brain just got fried.
We cannot rescue a fat princess from an enemy castle because that would somehow be fat bashing?
Well then, are they not putting forward the belief that fat people are worthless?
For his part, Titan Studios' art director, James Green, said in an email to Joystiq:
The game concept is cute. This comment isnt. Pretty likely is it that the "girl" concept artist is over 25. That's a woman. I know some men in the industry dont come into contact with them that often, but the underlying concept should be recognizable . . .
So next time a woman at school refers to me as one of the Boys I should get annoyed? The terms are interchangeable, and unless you have the benefit of hearing someone’s tone of voice its very hard determine how they are using the word girl or boy. Given the context it is a large leap to assume he is using that in a patronizing or derogatory fashion.
Agreed. The vast majority of the time, the term "girl" (more often the counterpart of "guy" than "boy" in modern social context) is not derogatory at all. Hell, you don't even get the same negative connotations out of "girl" as you get out of "boy" when attempting to use the latter in a derogatory manner (conveyed through tone and inflection of voice).
Sorry, but you're taking offense where there's none to take on this one, Chickalicious.
For a moment, I didn't realize the OP's name for this string was "Chickalicious"...
I was like... "Yep, way to end a smart comment with something that could be contrived as an insult.."
Lol.. I guess I should Lrn2Read.
"Pretty likely is it that the "girl" concept artist is over 25. "
It is? Most concept artist usually jump out of school fairly young, many around 20-21, especially in this highly competitive and specialized niche within the industry as a whole. Not to mention Titan Studios is likely a startup primarily fueled by fresh from college working professionals who depend on these smaller studios for jobs before they can even apply for the larger studios.
Of course you probably knew all this and wasn't intending to sound ignorant while making a point... right?
Or... for fucks sake, we could drop this whole charade and quit looking for controversy where none exists.
Woman:Man
Girl:Boy
Girl:Guy
He could've said "woman", but instead he said "girl" as the feminine equivalent of "guy". (No one says "gal" unless they're trying to be folksy.) No sexism here, move along.
Just change the title to "Phat Princess"
Problem solved.
Yeah, but then you would have to change the mechanic to the Princess getting weighed down by excess "Bling."
Win.
Then that would be construed as racism, because everyone knows it would be making fun of black people and saying that all of them are obsessed with heavy jewelry. And this would be despite the fact that the princess is white.
Isn't it just wonderful how you can NEVER win? Its like playing Global Thermonuclear War - The only winning move is not to play.
By saying everyone in America you commited a logical fallacy thus rendering your arument moot...
And even not playing isn't a winning move because then you are succumbing to censorship.
Aaah! A War Games reference! Classic.
Um... i have nothing to say about this. It's just too weird.
Meh. I think the thing about this that annoys me the most is the blogger's attitude of "I'm going to be insulting and immature, oh look people were immature back! That proves that I am right!"
I think people need to remember that if you post nasty blogs about how insulted you are by something, a good chunk of the time that post is going to insult some uninvolved 3rd party..... so unless you word it carefully one will end up hurting others in their attempt to say how they are hurt, and those people will have every right to attack back. And then turning thier pain around and using it as example of why you were right all along just amplifies the effect.
What a joke! If the women are too skinny, they get pissed. If they're too fat, they get pissed. So all they want is normal sized women in a video game? This is supposed to be fantasy here!
On top of that, look around and you'll see that the fat woman in the game is fairly close to how big women (And men) are becoming in society.
And any 3rd party that was insulted by my comment should go on a diet. Bwa ha ha!
As someone to considers herself a feminist, I'm not too happy with the notion that being one means you have to get upset over every, often trivial, things(that, like the cake, is a lie). Being a complainer doesn't qualify you as a feminist. The game looks amusing to me, a funny new take on the rescue the princess game.
Could you talk some sense into the feminists at that website because apparently no matter how non offensive you try to talk to them via the comments page they just find things to criticize one about such as my bad grammer. xD
Atleast your here sanely talking and trying to have a dialogue so your the good type of feminist. :)
Heh. The problem is, if she, as a feminist, goes and tries to talk some sense into these angry people, she will just be labeled a traitor, or a male apologist, or a tool of men, or man pretending to be a woman, or someone who 'obviously doesn't get it and who's attitude actually hurts women everywhere'.
People like this generally are not interestd in hearing ideas from within their own movement that do not match their own. They want to believe that they are the true form of what a feminist should be, fighting the things that need to be fought, and anyone who does not follow thier model is worse then the things they are fighting.
Haha, a "good type." Most generally aren't out to cut you balls off, you just don't hear from them as much since women like this get the attention.
Neeneko pretty much said it, once I disagree, I'll loose my "feminist" status in their eyes, it won't really be a fem vs fem arguement. I was actually thinking about writing up a response aimed more at their logic (that this princess is portrayed as "unlovable human garbage") during my lunch break (I'm wasting enough work time as it is, lol). I do thing some games are sexist (or at least have sexist elements, one part of a game can't really earn an entire title such a damning label), but this clearly isn't one of them, and crying wolf doesn't help a cause.
I liked Arashi's argument too, "a girl made it!" doesn't cut it ("girls" are capable of making sexist material). Do a better job of defending your creation.
This is a debate I've had with an ex-girlfriend on a few occasions (we're both still on very good terms, mind you). Basically, the feminists that we've all come to know and hate...are the only ones we ever hear from. The term "feminism" has become warped in the public eye, so it elicits a hostile response. Just as you, Meggie, don't like being lumped in with the "evil feminists", most guys don't appreciate being lumped in with the "male chauvinist pigs". I admit it is something of a catch-22 regarding your ability to speak out against the idiots within your ranks (at least it is easier for a decent guy to call out a jackass for being a jackass).
That said, I have never liked the term feminism simply because of its etymology. The "true" feminists claim to want equality between the genders, yet they themselves have taken up a label implying a bias toward their own gender. I'd much prefer the term "equalist", myself, but then again I'd much prefer that there be no need for labels in the first place, so...meh.
Either way, we can all agree that women are cool, for the most part, but the two quoted above fail =)
Luckly the notion is slowly dieing out.
Whiney extreamists will always find an audiance but they will increasingly be the minority.
Plus the cultural fears over feminism are dieing off so there is less imagry of the 'insane feminatizi' floating around, which means even when these outliers find an audiance they get less benifit out of it.
Eh...this might be true of the mainstream, but if you ever go digging for more information on the subject...
I think that's another self-defeating tendency that feminist groups, especially on the internet, seem to have. They can deny it until they're blue in the face, but the Greater Internet Dickwad Theory applies to them too, and their blogs/forums/etc. are often cesspools of male-bashing. So when some unsuspecting guy decides he wants to find out more about the "real" definition of feminism and what the philosophy is all about (possibly because some "good" feminist told him his misconceptions were, in fact, misconceptions, and he should try to learn what it's all really about?), what he finds is pretty much confirmation of all his worst fears and suspicions about them.
Because, once again...the idiots are always the loudest ones. It's tragic how many aspects of humanity that's true of =(
Well, the mainstream is pretty important. It provides the baseline for sociatie's attitudes.
But yeah, well meaning males who get introduced to 'feminism' via blogs and fringe groups are bound for a bad experince. Usually I just dirrect people to NOW or other mature groups. Years ago I used to work with a group (I wish i could remember it's name) that ran special classes trying to get girls introduced to science and technology degrees. Now there was a great feminist group to work with.. they started with a real, tangible problem (asymetric representation of women in science/engineering), asked what caused problems, then took positive steps to try to show young girls/women that these fields could be really interesting.
No bashing, no whining, no victimization, just 'hey! this is cool stuff and you can do it too if you give it a chance'
Anytime someone uses the term 'heteronormative', god kills a kitten.
I just looked up the term and I have no idea how it even applies to this controversy...... 0_o
Well, that's the other thing...it doesn't. She just threw it in to show her PC street cred.
Heh... Can anybody make anything in this country without offending somebody?
No. Too many people with too many values and beliefs that will be insulted if you happen to continue on with the creative process.
a women designed it, Feminests were just owned
I guarantee that if the game had been titled "Fat King" and had you rescuing a tubby old soul with a beard, there would not have been one single iota of complaint or controversy.
It's saddening that groups who proclaim to be looking out for certain demographics just exacerbate problems by searching for or creating controversy like this where none exists.The same people who would scream if there were no black/female/overweight characters continue to scream when they are there. I think games, hell the entire world of fiction would be incredibly dull if every single character was a boring cookie cutter figure, designed to be as non-offensive as possible. I'm not saying that every black character should be a bad guy for instance, but there should be no outrage if a black guy is chosen to be the antagonist in a game. The same goes for any member of either sex, any race, religion, etc.
Of course there would be no complaints there, guys embrace their fatness, I know I do!
It's all about accepting yourself, and while fat guys may decide to work on their personalities and their humor many overweight women just brood on the fact they are overweight. This usually just leads to them becoming bitter and hateful.
This of course is just based on my own personal experiences and the people I have met and known awhile.
EMBRACE THE FATNESS!!!
I have a theory that as society gets less and less racist and less and less sexist these groups are struggling to find a reason to still exist. So they look for controversy, they look to stir up shit where none exists so that they can tell their followers that they are still needed (this process can be done subconsciously as well).
Melissa McEwan needs to grow up.
I can see why they'd be upset, but I disagree with them. I'm a fat female gamer. I have no qualms saying such. This looks like a game I'd enjoy - it's meant to be silly and fun; it's not meant to intentionally or maliciously bash fat women. I can see how it can be seen that way, but I don't think that's what the game is trying to do. (I feel a lot of times, "artistic" or "developers'" intent can get lost in a game, and in cases like this, it's important to see where they're coming from.)
Also saying "a girl made it" does not help your argument, Mr. Green. That's like saying, "HEY I CAN MAKE FUN OF GAY PEOPLE CUZ MY BEST FRIEND'S GAAAAAY". Doesn't work, and it's not cool.
I also believe that feminism should be about equality with men - not about preaching how women are superior to men. However, I do believe that both genders should be more understanding and accepting of each other. Woman-bashing (and male-bashing) is definitely not okay.
And the sad part is that if you tried to have a conversation with the people on that website, they would simply make fun of your grammer and would just dance around the issue. xD
My grammar is impeccable, baby. ;)
Reading the comments on those pages made my head spin with the stupidity of it all - and I'm not just talking about the feminists. Some very immature gamers didn't really make their points clear (and by that, I mean they sounded like a bunch of kids). Yes, intentionally baiting angry people TOTALLY makes them see your point of view. Some of the more reasonable comments did, unfortunately, seem to fall on deaf ears, which is too bad. The more rational comments should have at least been heard instead of being told almost immediately that they were wrong.
It's all about respect. Giving it means getting it.
Oh, also? If you don't want to support something? Then DON'T BUY IT. It's as simple as that. Companies don't make stuff that people won't buy.
I am not sure the 'because my best friend is gay' analogy holds in this case. This isn't 'my friend is a girl', it's 'the artist who's responbility it was to set the tone and designed the imagry for the game was a girl', which is pretty differnt. This isn't some bystandard that happens to be near by, he is talking about someone with significant influence over the game's look and imagry.
Within the gay analogy, it would be like talking about, say, a gay oriented movie where the director was strait, people got offended, then the director reveals that the writers were gay.
Good point.
Though maggie above also pointed out something that I had blanked on.
The exuse does kinda fall flat since women can be quite sexist twords women too. So the argument works if he is specificly countering the idea that the game was made by insensive men being sexist twords women, but is not a complete argument against the idea the game is sexist.
Wow that was convoluted english, my bad.