Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?

Video game industry consultant Vincent Scheurer (left), speaking the Develop conference in Brighton, warned that future game bans were possible in the UK.

As reported by gamesindustry.biz, Scheurer said:

The costs of the Manhunt 2 ban to RockStar were massive – an independent developer would be out of business… Call of Duty and BioShock could be banned under that criteria [that applied to Manhunt 2]… The next game to be banned could be BioShock 2, and then where would we be?

 

…It makes the business of making games that much harder.

Scheurer also spanked ELSPA boss Paul Jackson for praising the Manhunt 2 ban:

While we fail to fight back we will continue to be blamed for all of societies ills… In my view [European game developers group] Tiga was the only association to step up… Tiga realised, where the other’s didn’t, that this was about more than Manhunt 2.

Gamezine has more on Scheurer’s remarks…

And GameSpot UK has even more…

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114 comments

  1. oto kirlama says:

    Nintendo is indeed selling SOME of these on the Virtual Console but not even close to all of them. While i agree in part to his piracy he was filling a market that Nintendo failed to recognize. Maybe someone doesnt want to buy a Wii. maybe they just want a console with 50 – 100 NES games on them?? maybe just maybe?

    but no Nintendo wants everyone araba kiralama to buy the Wii. thats their excuse but thats not what copyright is supposed to protect. i am real sure that the makers of 10 yard fight were losing sleep because they were missing out on their $0.00025 worth because they didnt get royalties from this player. *smirk*

    my question is, should Super Mario Bros. be banned from public domain forever? isnt 23 years enough time for Nintendo to have made their profits?

    If you have followed the Steamboat Willie case regarding Mickey Mouse you can rest in your bed well at night knowing that the MOUSE will still be under copyright law, away from public domain after your great grandchildren are in nursing homes. That is beyond ridiculous dont you think??

    Gallagher can araç kiralama say all he wants, but I strongly rent a car believe it’s due to his crappy leadership and E3 being a joke. ESA’s Board of Directors need to find a way to get out rent a car of this horrid contract with this Bush cronie before there’s no one left on the Board.

    Btw, I think Atari and Midway will drop out too, but mostly travesti because  these guys have done nothing ttnet vitamin or little and need to start saving costs.

    YES.

    Now I don’t have to get off my ass for the important shit anymore!

    Whats next, ordering pizza from Xbox live?

    Wait… I think that sounds like a good idea.

    But I think voting should MAKE you get off your ass, and see outside or a second while you go vote. I mean, your picking the president of the United States of America for God’s Sake… least you can do is drive down there and punch out a card.

  2. Erik ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    "We both support censorship, even for over 18s. Kiddie porn, for example."

     

    Strawman.  You see kiddie porn is illegal due to its creation there is an illegal activity happening.  Ergo: apples and oranges

     

    "Doesn’t it twig with you that none of the UK GPers are anti-BBFC? We’re all comfortable with it. It has been shown time and again that it doesn’t affect our civil liberties."

     

    It is an oddity I must admit.  That everyone seems to be passive to it as though they were cattle.  But in say, cannibalistic societies it wouldn’t be unheard that none of them would find fault with eating people.

     

    "Do you really have that low an opinion of the UK that you think we want some totaliatrian state where we can be told what we should watch?"

     

    Well yes actually.  You seem to support that with your statement that there are no UK GPers which are anti-BBFC.

     

    "Try and understand that we have a system we like. You have a system you like. Everyone is happy."

     

    We have a system I like?  Well that is news to me.  Between the FCC, scaremongering senators, and massacare chasing lawyers I can say that I loathe our current system.  I may have a low opinion of how the UK does things, but I have an equally low opinion about how the US does things.

  3. Jezcentral says:

    We both support censorship, even for over 18s. Kiddie porn, for example.

    Doesn’t it twig with you that none of the UK GPers are anti-BBFC? We’re all comfortable with it. It has been shown time and again that it doesn’t affect our civil liberties.

    Do you really have that low an opinion of the UK that you think we want some totaliatrian state where we can be told what we should watch? Try and understand that we have a system we like. You have a system you like. Everyone is happy.

  4. Erik ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Your point being?  Liking censorship doesn’t mean that it isn’t still censorship.  Book burners like burning books.

  5. Anonymous says:

    Erik wrote: "Firstly, I proudly consider myself one of the "American BBFC Hate force.  You liking it  or it "working" is a really moot point."

    Rubbbish, we Brits liking our own BBFC and thinking it works, is EXACTLY the point.

  6. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Being dyslexic or "learning disabled" is no excuse for not running you text through a spell checker.  Having just done so on an example block of text it corrected not only the spelling mistakes, but also some of the grammar too.  This is not about embarrassing you, it is about being able to understand what you are saying.  Some of your sentences are incomprehensible no matter how much you read them.

    You go on to mention "straw man argument" but frankly that is hypocritical given that you are constantly calling people names like ‘sheeple’ (horrible bastadisation of two words… please don’t use it) if they disagree with you, which frankly is most of the posters here.  Furthermore, if you are going to admit that you are only making "silly inane banter" to begin with, it undermines your position from the off.

  7. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Dear unintelligible and illiterate friend with no spell checker, I’m so glad that someone outside of the country, outside of the industry and outside of the company knows so much about the BBFC that he can comment on what they have learned and what they are going to do in the future.

    Your wild speculation and ridiculous supposition only adds to your reputation.

  8. Erik ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Firstly, I proudly consider myself one of the "American BBFC Hate force.  You liking it  or it "working" is a really moot point.

    Secondly, it is because of shit like the Patriot act that makes reliance on gun ownership a must.  Read your history books.  When a government disarms a people it is never for reasons of violent crime.  Rather it is to make the people subservient and harmless to them.   Godwining:  Hitler supported gun control.  Can’t have the Jewish people defending themselves now can we?

  9. ZippyDSMlee says:

    You know…. You call me a incapable incoherent but fail to realize you are trying to get blood from a stone, or in this case proper spelling and grammar from someone that’s learning disabled who can spell a word in such a way he has to re spell it 5 times in order for a spell checker to figure out what the word is, if you cannot get a brain and read and try and comprehend the subtle soury mash then don’t bother because the  insulting, belittling or using “ZOMG the spelling he’s just a spaz/idiot he has nothing to say move along move along” straw man of last resort is more annoying than my silly inane banter.

    Perhaps I am not the only one that needs to remove head from arse here, I’ll admit I can be an arse I can be incoherent and oh I can dog one element of a issue into the ground and rape its weepy corpse(like eeww :P) but in general there’s something more than poo in what I say if here was not I would be beaten dumber by the ban stick in not only here but in the forums as well.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=

    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  10. ZippyDSMlee says:

     

    Dear lil woolie friend its simple the court was used as leverage to un ban the game, the BBFC has not learned from the process and will continue to ban anything that goes to extremes, instead of realizing their folly and adapting properly.

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  11. Canary Wundaboy says:

    Apologies SticKboy, I was in a bad mood and reading the replies in this thread just tipped me over.

    My apologies to all or any who felt offended.

  12. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    "The BBFC may not be the government, but that does not negate the fact that when they refuse classification of a game, the game cannot be sold within the UK."

    Excellent.  I’m glad we can agree on the distinction.

    Incidently, do you have any control over GP’s registering of Usernames?  I’ve not had a confirmation email yet after 24 hours…

  13. BunchaKneejerks says:

    "You also seem to think that owning a gun is a bad thing."

    Again this is a cultural thing. The general feeling in the UK is in favour of firearm controls but that is not a debate worth going into

  14. E. Zachary Knight says:

    We hate the Patriot act as well. It should never have passed and those who supported and voted for it are getting their just desserts.

    You also seem to think that owning a gun is a bad thing.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  15. Anonymous says:

    It is a shame we don’t have a "r18" for games. That would have been good.

    (R18 (just porn, but I’d like to see it expanded) can only sold in lienced shops.

     

    So MH2 gets a "really bad shit" sticker. Requires entering dodgy shop to get. Little Timmy can’t really ask mummy to buy it for him.

  16. Anonymous says:

    Dennis, no. I do think the headline sucks, but it will get readers. And that equals ads.

     

    The person who wrote the article sounds like a fool typing any old trash. But if he is a popular enough fool it is Dannis’ job to report it.

  17. BunchaKneejerks says:

    Holy shit! Your right! I never actually realised R* hadn’t actually released it over here yet. I assumed they got it out the door asap.

  18. SticKboy says:

    That was a low blow, CW, and not befitting of your usual standards. I do, however share your frustrations.

    — teh moominz —

  19. BunchaKneejerks says:

    The point I am making is that until such times as the ownership of the tape can be determined the court barred sale or distribution. From the courts perspective it is unknown who the rightful owner is and until that determination can be fully ascertained the material should not be put into circulation. You are running on the assumption that the plantiff was right all along. It is reported it was his Ex who owned the tape and she sold it to SugarDVD. If we were to say at the end of this court case it turns out the rights to the tape were the Ex’s and was subsequently released then would you have considered the restraining order a ban?

    I suppose the point I am making is that a restraining order could be issued to block the release of something until a series of conclusions can be drawn. Same thing with the BBFC and Rockstar, the process was still ongoing and thus the game could not be released until the process was completed and a determination could be made.

  20. E. Zachary Knight says:

    You are right. He now has a clean record and that original conviction will not be held against him any time in the future. But that does not erase the fact that at one point he was covicted and spent months possibly years in jail under the false conviction while awaiting appeal.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  21. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Yet we get back to the point that what the BBFC says has full weight of law behind it.

    The BBFC may not be the government, but that does not negate the fact that when they refuse classification of a game, the game cannot be sold within the UK.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  22. Canary Wundaboy says:

    I see the usual American ‘BBFC Hate Crowd’ are out in force.

    We like it, it works, go away and suck on your Patriot Act and your cultural reliance on guns to make yourselves feel better.

  23. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    And again we get back to the point that BBFC <> government.  *sigh*  You’d think after about 100 times of shouting it, posting articles, links, official websites, breakdowns of who funds the BBFC and how it works you MIGHT understand that little fact.

  24. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    My bad,  29/08/2008.  August, not September.

  25. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I know, let’s recycle all our old arguements again and again and chase this topic round in circles shall we?

    I refer you to the responses elsewhere about how getting a rating is a process that doesn’t end with the BBFC and how trying to suggest it is banned just because their precious release date was missed doesn’t mean that it has been banned.

    Infact your point is again largely moot as MONTHS after the ruling was made in favour of Rockstar, they STILL haven’t released Manhunt 2 here.  It’s release date is currently 29/09/2008.

  26. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    "You have a rating for PORN — 18R. Why couldn’t that rating have been applied IN THE FIRST PLACE?"

    Because Manhunt 2 is NOT porn, much as Jack Thompson would like people to believe otherwise.  Is that not obvious enough for you?

  27. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    … talking about British Politics than affects British Gamers and their British Ratings Board.  You point is moot.

  28. Colonel Finn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Actually yes.  The law in Britain holds that anyone convicted of a crime ceases to have ever been guilty of it, should it be overturned in retrial or appeal. As can be seen in current events in the UK.

     

    So using that analogy, yes the game was never banned, it was merely inconvenienced for a short time.

  29. Colonel Finn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    "Going by the logic used against you EZK it could be said that if a person who was convicted of a crime and found guilty were let out on APPEAL then that person must not have been guilty to begin with or never served any time…"

    That IS how the law works here…  if you are convicted of a crime, and the conviction is quashed at re-trial or appeal then technically you were officially NEVER guilty of that crime.

     

    Here let me pop that into your pipe for you and give you a light…

  30. Jeff says:

    Why do you twist everything I say in my posts to make an entirely different point?

    You have a rating for PORN — 18R. Why couldn’t that rating have been applied IN THE FIRST PLACE? It would’ve avoided the whole controversy, the game would’ve been sold, everyone would be happy, and the BBFC wouldn’t have made idiots of themselves to the international gaming community.

  31. Jeff says:

    Did you not read my post?

    I never said it was banned in the US. There is NO LAW in the US that could ban it. The only ones who have the power to effect a ban on a game are the Big Three themselves — but that applies internationally and is not exclusive to the US. A game does or does not get banned because of anything in from the legal system in the US. The US does not place these constraints on selling AO games: the retailers do. Contrast that with the UK where it is the government that places the constraints of the sale of selling unrated games.

    Retailers != Government

    This isn’t a topic of our 2nd or 1st Amendment rights. The point I’m trying to make is that I don’t want government in my gaming. You may be ok with it but I’m simply trying to express a view.

    Every single time you bitch about something us Americans say on here just remember where you are: an American run website, from an American blogger, who works with/for an American based organization that is working to secure the rights of — you guessed it — American gamers.

  32. E. Zachary Knight says:

    I think you missed something in my analogy. The original ruling was the BBFC. The Appeals ruling was the VAC. How hard was that to interpret?

    Let me also ask you this, was Rockstar free to distribute Manhunt 2 during the appeals process? After all, their original release date would have fallen within that period.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  33. E. Zachary Knight says:

    So how does this apply to the Manhunt 2 situation? What you just described was the owner of the tape stopping release of his property, not the government stopping release of his tape.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  34. ZippyDSMlee says:

     

    Absolutions are bad, bans are near absolutions the ban structure needs to be changed in the UK instead of banning slot unrated to 18, and then slot questionable stuff to 18 or 18R and be done with it, mainstream pubs will try harder to not cross the line when their media is as restricted as porn.. at least with 18R thre is wiggle roo for adults tog et the product.

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  35. ZippyDSMlee says:

    The point is all it takes is a mindset change in goverment or the BBFC and it very well could.

    This is why the ban stick that the BBFC has is so important, you jsut do not want goveremnt having that much power, look at austrila and newzeland…….

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  36. DuncanM says:

    "Call of Duty and BioShock could be banned under that criteria [that applied to Manhunt 2]"

    Well, they clearly weren’t, so he’s talking utter drivel.

  37. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Incorrect.  Under this analogy, the VAC would have found in the BBFC’s favour against Manhunt 2 and Rockstar.  In these circumstances it would stand that the game had breached the moral code that allowed the game to be released in the UK in its current form.  This DIDN’T happen in this circumstance, nor any other in the history of the BBFC rating games.

  38. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    We feel the same way about everyone in the US owning guns and having death penalty, so what is your point exactly?

    Oh as typing *licks* makes you sound like a fucking furry, so kindly keep your tongue to yourself unless it is used to enunciate a useful sentence.

  39. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    "Sorry the minete they decry higher ground and refuse to rate something is either as mature or mature restricted is the minute they become a bunch of immutable fassicists."

    I have read this sentence 5 times and it still makes not one iota of sense.

  40. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I will apologise in advance for my drunken misgivings before they are pointed out to me.

  41. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    So… you are giving an american example about porn to a British issue about gaming…

    A few things to say.  If you don’t have the time or ability to either spell words correctly or form a sentence that makes any sense, being disparaging or rude (using phrases like pull your head out of your ass) leaves you open to ridicule, EVEN if you have some form of learning disability or dyslexia.

    Secondly, giving an example of US Porn laws in the context of UK gaming laws in frankly laughable.  Over here we didn’t flinch when  there was sex in Oblivion of GTA:SA.  Oblivion, there was political pressure on the ESRB to allow for modders making skins that were outside of the original content and they changed the rating from Teen to Mature.  In the UK it is STILL a 15, because much as you would like to paint it differently, the BBFC do not succumb to political pressure..  With GTA:SA, there was NO chance of it being an AO game as it would STILL have been 18 even if the sex mini game HAD been included in it; we are not all puritanical.

    "Banning is not good" is a very naive phrase.  I suggest you do some research into the UK way of life and the US legal system and see just had little media content is actually censored to the public this side of the pond compared to your own.  that you have your knickers in a twist over a single computer game means fuck all to 99% of us.

  42. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    We already have an 18 rating for games.  The point is lost as the BBFC thought it overstepped the 18 mark.  The VAC disagreed and consequently it got a rating.  Why you Americans want to make more of this that there is is beyond me.

    The BBFC have guidelines they have to adhere to as a body that reviews games and DVDs and Movies based upon not only legal issues but a moral code applicable to the current day.  They played Manhunt 2 and thought that the moral implications of it were grave enough for it to not even get an 18 certificate.  The provisions in place to assert where the line is crossed in the UK disagreed (by 4 to 3 in favour of Manhunt 2) and said it should be allowed a release, which ultimately happened.

    THERE IS NO 1ST AMENDMENT LAW IN THE UK.  Ofcouse, over here we also laugh that your terrestrial TV doesn’t allow people to say ‘fuck’ after 9pm, or allow any sex or sexual content.  That seems to slip through your filters in the in censorship department…

  43. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Okay, but you accept that in the US the contraints on selling a game with an AO rating are such that most would choose to either redesign and downgrade it than sell it under those conditions?

    No system is perfect, and suggesting that the US is somehow superior because it effectively bans something in a different way to the UK is frankly silly. 

    What you and other americans need to realise is that the 1st amendment begins and ends in your country.  We in the UK know about our censorship laws and accept them.  In well over 99.99%, these laws serve us very well and we have no problem with them. That you do.. has very little impact on the UK way of life.  You can bitch and moan about the UK laws until you are blue in the face, but we are very happy with them.

    On the same token, it is amazing how many americans become very defensive when you point out that over 11,000 americans are killed by guns a year and that their 2nd Amendment laws are causing them more deaths than are necessery.  It is a culture thing.  Accept it.

  44. Erik ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Then what sort of stories would you like to see instead?  Perhaps you would like to see Dennis gush endless amounts of praise upon the infalible BBFC and lament that a similar system has not come to this side of the Atlantic yet.

    But I wouldn’t hold your breath expecting a story such as that to come from Dennis or Gamepolitics any time soon.  But I wouldn’t doubt that something of that nature could be found on http://www.copycatviolence.com some day.

  45. CrazyBlue ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    WHAT!! I do hope that when (and if to a degree) Bioshock 2 comes to be released in the UK that this horrible event does not occur! Now I think many like me did not care presonally too much about Manhunt 2’s ban, but of course on the bigger issue of censorship is bad, we all cared as part of the greater good. Of course Bioshock on the other hand is a game much more cared about, and it will be a disgrase is such a horrible action were to take place. Of course it depends on how the rest of Europe acts. As say France didn’t give a damn about it, well then there would be massive numbers of people importing it from our neighbors!

    But unfortuantly I am becomign increasingly worried about the state of game ratings in this country…

     

    (Damn Labour trying to control what we do!!)

  46. BunchaKneejerks says:

    Nothing down to porn laws, its a matter of ownage rights. Long story short, A porn distributor got their mits on the Verne Troyer sex tape and a clip of it got posted onto TMZ with the distributor intending to sell the footage to the public. Troyer’s lawyers got involved and successfully got a restraining order applied to prevent the sale and distribution of the video until such times as a judgement was made as to whether it could be released and who owned the rights to the tape. Thus pushing the video passed the release date.

    In that situation would you consider that a ban?

  47. E. Zachary Knight says:

    What are your porn laws? I am more familiar with the way the UK handles games than I am with the way they handle porn. But if they are barring the video from distribution, that is a form of banning yes.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  48. Anonymous says:

    How about tacking this one I posted earlier, which I believe it more accurate.

    So when a restraining order was initially issued to prevent the distribution of the Mini-Me sex tape you would consider that a ban too?

  49. Jeff says:

    I think he means to say that it would’ve been easier and less painful if the BBFC had just slapped an 18 or R18 rating on it to begin with instead of creating a big controversy over Manhunt 2 by refusing to rate it to begin with.

  50. Anonymous says:

    I dislike censorship, given the games they are baning, it seems more like quality control.

  51. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Since you like this court analogy, I’ll swing with it.

    Say a man was arrested and charged with a crime he didn’t commit. The Prosecution however made a compelling case and the judge ruled that he was guilty and was going to jail. He decides t oappeal the ruling and starts the process. During this process, he is still in jail and is still considered guilty according to the court. The final appeal process finally goes through and the new court rules in his favor and finds him not guilty.

    Now was this guy never ruled guilty and never spent time in jail? According to you, it never happened and he was always innocent and free.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  52. ZippyDSMlee says:

    So you are saying a court case brought about by immaturity and stubbornness to not slot a adult media to the adult range is somehow not a farce?

    Sorry the minete they decry higher ground and refuse to rate something is either as mature or mature restricted is the minute they become a bunch of immutable fassicists.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  53. ZippyDSMlee says:

     

    I don’t really have a problem banning unrated material however I think it would be better if you labeled it as unrated and make it a default 18 just to streamline the process a bit because it’s 18 and bound by age laws retail shops will do their best to keep it from minors.

     

    The problem with banning is it does not work people still get the product some get their mail order confiscated by anal thinking censorbots, its wastes time and money when a title is brought to court, it is just cumbersome and moot process to generally protect adults from alterative “thinking”.

     

    As I have said before the BBFC could easily be perfect if they streamlined the process funnel “duck” games(if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck it’s a duck) and re-reviews into simple submitted material that a rating is based on if a further full review is needed then so be it but most games are not going to need contrived scrutiny as the review process, for games that push things to far send a message to the industry and label them 18R so what if it can only be sold in sex shops or shops that handle adult stuff the point has been made and either the pubs will re roll it or let it stand and lose sales money from limit sales, to ban it shows the immaturity that most uptight sheltered busy bodies have, banning simple should not be used post rating.

     

    If you cannot understand that banning is a bad thing just wait till the government decides its something it wants to use to actively “protect” the masses with, instead of banning things unrated by the BFC should get a automatic 18 since the 18 range stuff is bounded by law everything clicks making it better for the populace.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  54. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Never read about how porn is treated? contraband media including videogames can be confiscated by the mail system and it has happened, sure its randomly enforced but EVERYONE is trying to tell you all it takes is one administration  to make it mirror New zelands anal retentive censor board, one simply dose not want such power for the government to muse over not with the age laws being more than enough, so pull your head out of your ass and see than banning is not good,that instead of banning they should just slot it correctly and be done with it, if Man hunt 2 was treated as a mature product meant for adults it would have been slapped with an 18 or better yet they can slap it with a 18R and call it obcense to the point of porn.

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  55. Jeff says:

    If I implied that I didn’t believe someone in the UK couldn’t own the game then you must’ve misread what I wrote. I said the game can’t be SOLD in the UK if it is unrated whereas an AO game CAN be sold in the US. I don’t need to import to purchase an AO game here in the US. I don’t know where you got ownership of an unrated game from my post but I never said any such thing.

  56. BunchaKneejerks says:

    Quite frankly, thats what the courts are for and the judicial review wasn’t exactly a large scale affair. If it was the scale and farce like the Hutton Enquiry I may agree with you but look at it with a sense of perspective. Personally speaking, I consider it money well spent, if it didn’t happen then chances are Manhunt 2 would never have been released (although I am not exactly a fan of Manhunt or Rockstars antics.) Its all part of a process that has resulted in a re-assessment of where the goalposts lie.

  57. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Um, you DO realise that any game that isn’t rated may still be owned by a member of the public, just not sold within the UK?  Thus importing it into the country for personal use is NOT illegal.

  58. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    As we Brits are tired of repeating, You cannot apply US thoughts to UK culture.  You’ve said nothing new here that hasn’t been said by others, but you keep banging on about there being a force of law behind the BBFC.  It makes no difference who is doing the rating, there will ALWAYS be the force of law behind who is doing it as Finn has correctly pointed out.

    "I will never understand the "advantage" of a rating board having the force of law/government behind it. If anything it simply creates issues like this."

    And until you do, or try to accept this is the UK way of doing things, we will continue to correct you when you come at the subject with an Americocentric viewpoint.

  59. Jeff says:

    I should correct myself… The court process that Rockstar, or any other company for that matter, had (or would have) to go through cost taxpayers money. That was a mistyped thought on my part. I am fully aware that the BBFC, PEGI, and especially the ESRB get their money from the companies who want their movies or games rated.

  60. BunchaKneejerks says:

    "but it is a costly process that wastes taxpayer and industry funds. Also, if the BBFC is anything like other rating boards … then a publisher must pay THEM to rate their game, am I correct?"

    Tax payer money doesn’t factor into it. The BBFC is fully funded by the fee’s it levys. Also, if the results of the VAC appeal is sucessful then the BBFC offers a full refund of all costs from the appeal process. Which would have been the case with Rockstar. I would also point out the ESRB and PEGI also levy fees.

     

  61. Colonel Finn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Actually you’ve got things a bit backwards.

    The BBFC doesn’t ahve the force of law behind it, it simply applies the ratings that are already enforced by law.  If the BBFC was shut down tomorrow and PEGI was put in it’s place then the PEGI standards would be enforced by law.

    Also everyone whinging about the BBFC not giving ratings being a scary idea.  What the hell do you think the American AO rating does? Exactly the same thing.

  62. Jeff says:

    I suppose that’s the issue with a rating board having legal authority or having enforceable ratings…

    Every game and movie in the United States goes through rating. Is it part of the process? Yes. Is it mandatory? No. It is meant to be informative — not determine what a few individuals feel should or shouldn’t be sold to the general public. If a movie or game doesn’t get a rating here in the US it’ll either a) simply not be carried by any retailers or b) in the case of movies it’ll just have an unrated edition available at  the store and games w/o ratings can be sold over the internet. If the ESRB refused to rate a game then the developer/publisher can simply sell it on the internet. The rating only applies to whether a retailer will decide to sell it or not. Is that a ban? No, because the game can still be sold in the US. Is it illegal? Thankfully it’s not.

    My issue with the BBFC is that it has more power than a rating board should have. It can make decisions on whether or not a game can or cannot be sold by refusing classification. Yes, this decision can be appealed, but it is a costly process that wastes taxpayer and industry funds. Also, if the BBFC is anything like other rating boards of its kind then I assume that to receive a rating then a studio/publisher/developer/etc. must pay THEM to rate their game, am I correct? If that is the case then they should keep their end of the bargain. Rate the game or refund the money. In this case Rockstar paid to have a game rated and had to pay court fees to get the very organization they paid to rate their game in the first place to do what they paid them for to begin with!

    I will never understand the "advantage" of a rating board having the force of law/government behind it. If anything it simply creates issues like this.

  63. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Incorrect.  The logical conclusion of having been found guilty or given a ban would be if the VAC came back and agreed with the BBFC.  At this point Manhunt 2 would have to be modified to get a release, never get a release, or wait until the moral climate has changed to allow such a release as a 18 cert.

    Some of you people just don’t understand that obtaining a rating is part of a process.  Usually that process goes smoothly, but sometimes there have to be changes made.  Would you suggest for instance that Pulp Fiction got banned because they made them change a scene where Vincent injected Heroine so that it didn’t show the needle?  No, it was a cut that was made before it was resubmitted and they got its 18 cert.

  64. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    "That is not what I am saying and you know it."

    Whether it is or it isn’t is irrelevent.  If you are going to suggest that it is a ban up to the point a game doesn’t have a rating then you have to accept that any delay in getting the rating from the moment the game is ready for release is considered to be a ban by the criteria you are laying out.

    "It is when a game cannot meet its scheduled release date and may never meet that, that is banning a game."

    There are also a multitude of reasons for a game not being released.  Would you say that a publisher is banning a game from release when they put it back so it comes out during a holiday period?  Afterall, you can’t buy it legally until then.

    "It does not matter that there is the possiblity of appeal and that the ruling can be overturned. The fact is the ban was there and could have stayed indefinately[sic]. That is the problem."

    Just because you say it doesn’t make it so.  Think of it like a court case.  At first the Police decide whether or not to charge someone.  If they do decide to charge them, they can admit guilt or they can take it to trial.  They are not found guilty until the court case is over.  The decision by the BBFC to not give a rating was taken with previous moral decisions in mind and they thought they were doing the right thing.  Rockstar were allowed to appeal to the VAC and ultimately the BBFC were shown to be wrong.

    If anything, the Manhunt 2 debacle will have an effect on the BBFC by letting them know that the line they thought was crossed is actually much further away then they first realised.  The next time someone pushes the boundaries, those boundaires either be crossed or set again.  This is much like Films that were banned in the 1950’s that these days have got a U release because society and morals have moved on.  It should also be pointed out that were PEGI in charge, they would be expected to make similar moral judgements in line with UK law.

  65. Jeff says:

    Going by the logic used against you EZK it could be said that if a person who was convicted of a crime and found guilty were let out on APPEAL then that person must not have been guilty to begin with or never served any time…

    The game was banned. Not permanently to be sure. But it was banned. Refusal of a classification is not the same as not assigning a classification because you haven’t gotten the game yet.

  66. E. Zachary Knight says:

    By extension of that logic, ALL games are banned in the UK until they get a rating…

    That is not what I am saying and you know it. All games are scheduled to be released until they get a rating. It is when a game cannot meet its scheduled release date and may never meet that, that is banning a game. It does not matter that there is the possiblity of appeal and that the ruling can be overturned. The fact is the ban was there and could have stayed indefinately. That is the problem.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  67. BunchaKneejerks says:

    So when a restraining order was initially issued to prevent the distribution of the Mini-Me sex tape you would consider that a ban too?

  68. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    "Rockstar: Makes Manhunt 2

    BBFC: Rufuses classification

    UK Law: Unclassified games are banned from sale.

    Rockastar: Appeales to VAC

    VAC: Manhunt 2 should be classified.

    BBFC: Still won’t classify it."

    You were correct up this point, but actually what happened was that the BBFC appealed against the VAC’s decision, not Rockstar.  The VAC were told to come back with a decision which they did and at that point the BBFC accepted the decision (however grudgingly) and the game got an 18 cert.

    "Right up to the point that the BBFC gave in and gave in a rating classification the game was banned from sale. That is a ban in my book."

    By extension of that logic, ALL games are banned in the UK until they get a rating…

  69. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    "Its[sic] not that the release date was pushed back, it was pushed back indefinately[sic] depending on the result of the apeal[sic]."

    And if courts knew how long every case was going to last I’m sure they would love to give out accurate dates of when people can plan for their ‘not guilty’ parties.

    "The fact that it could not be released as scheduled because the BBFC refused to classify it, comes accross[sic] to me as a ban although temporary but possibly permanent."

    So if someone is remanded in custody before the decision to charge them with a crime, doesn’t that mean they have been found guilty?

  70. ChumaStillWaitingForUserAccountConfirmationEmailFromGP... ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    No, no it doesn’t.  Next question?

  71. Anonymous says:

    <blockquote>The fact the ELSPA didn’t dig in its heels over Manhunt 2 is disturbing. It means the agency either doesn’t take its responsibilities seriously, or is blissfully ignorant about the long-term impact of its decisions. Either way, it’s bad news.</blockquote>

    Sadly the same can be said of the ESA here in the US. They just don’t seem to understand the long-term impact of anything they do.

  72. BunchaKneejerks says:

    There is no sign the UK is moving towards an Australian style system, infact I would say it is more likely that your system will end up being liberalised.

  73. Anonymous says:

    I don’t buy into that. If the law suit was over a matter of copyright and the game was put on hold until the legal dispute was resolved you would not call that a ban.

  74. TBoneTony ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    of course we should also be careful of any people here that might be trying to use scare tactics.

     

    Try to think before you act is also important

     

    also no one mentioned any BoiShock 2, although it might have been used as a reference.

     

     

  75. Malygris says:

    The point here, and I think it’s a very valid one, is that vigilance isn’t something to be applied selectively. Choosing to let a ban against Manhunt 2 stand without a fight because it’s Rockstar, and it’s kind of a half-assed game anyway, can have very serious repercussions down the road, such as that cited by this hypothetical – totally hypothetical – ban against BioShock 2. Simplistically put, if Manhunt 2 is banned for a particular set of criteria, and BioShock 2 overlaps that criteria, it could not only be banned as a result but the industry’s ability to fight the ban would be somewhat straightjacketed by its choice to go along with similar, earlier bans.

    The fact the ELSPA didn’t dig in its heels over Manhunt 2 is disturbing. It means the agency either doesn’t take its responsibilities seriously, or is blissfully ignorant about the long-term impact of its decisions. Either way, it’s bad news.

     

  76. TBoneTony ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    You Gamers and Game Developers in the UK should stand up and fight the Government and their BBFC for trying to ban ANY game.

     

    If one game is banned, others will follow and more and more developers will suffer from costly legal proceedings of trying to overturn BBFC’s decision

     

    You need to protect the thing more important in your life,

     

    and you all need to let other people know that there IS a working rating system that DOES describe what is in every game…

     

    Of course the rating systems of the BBFC and the PEGI can be imporoved, but please don’t resort of banning one game all because some people in the BBFC decided that it was not suitable for adults to play.

     

    If you lose this battle, then you will get closer and closer to the laws of Australia

     

    And I know because I live in Australia.

     

     

     

     

  77. Chuma ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Also "Next" implies there has ever been a game banned in the UK.  There hasn’t.  Ever.  Those refused classification were overturned on appeal.  If you are going to ridicule Jack Thompson for claiming victory with 2 Live Crew in one breath and then claim Manhunt 2 was banned in the UK with the next, that is purely hypocracy.

  78. BunchaKneejerks says:

    Does anyone else out there feel if Dennis is intentionally painting the UK in a bad light? Mibby a siege mentality helps sell more ECA memberships?

  79. Jeff says:

    Incorrect on the last part.

    It doesn’t carry the weight of law behind it. That is a HUGE difference in the way our different rating systems work. A game CANNOT be sold in the UK if it has no rating. A game with an AO rating CAN be sold in the US. Retailers may not carry it but people can still buy it off the internet if they want. The de facto ban comes from the console manufacturers — Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft. Does anything they say about the game being on their consoles carry the weight of law? Nope. It certainly does not. The game still got rated and it can still be sold. THAT is a massive difference between the AO rating in the US and no-rating at all in the UK. That is not the same thing.

  80. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Its not that the release date was pushed back, it was pushed back indefinately depending on the result of the apeal. The fact that it could not be released as scheduled because the BBFC refused to classify it, comes accross to me as a ban although temporary but possibly permanent.

    Let me expound a bit:

    Rockstar: Makes Manhunt 2

    BBFC: Rufuses classification

    UK Law: Unclassified games are banned from sale.

    Rockastar: Appeales to VAC

    VAC: Manhunt 2 should be classified.

    BBFC: Still won’t classify it.

    UK: Law: Unclassified games are banned from sale.

    Rockstar: Appeals to high court.

    High Court: VAC should take a second look.

    VAC: Manhunt 2 should be classified.

    BBFC: Fine. Here’s you rating classification.

    UK Law: Classified games can be sold.

    Right up to the point that the BBFC gave in and gave in a rating classification the game was banned from sale. That is a ban in my book.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  81. ZippyDSMlee says:

     

     

    “”” Hey, Just because BioShock wasn’t as good as System Shock 2 doesn’t mean Bio Shock was a bad game. That’s like saying Mega Man 5 is a bad game or Super Mario Bros. 2 is a bad game when they beat a whole lot of crap that’s put out on the NES. 

    Basically, what I’m saying is, have some perspective, geez. “””

     

     

    The trouble is I have perspective and it says the game was watered down for the masses and under deved (the PC port is broken out fo the box for christ sake).

    The game is not bad but as someone who has seen better its lackluster.

     

    I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
    (in need of a bad overhaul)

     

  82. Anonymous says:

    You are by far the most annoying commenter on this site. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

    System Shock 2 is by far my favorite game of all time, but Bioshock was still fantastic. Drop the whole ‘all the masses are uneducated sheeple" act, you’re just as stupid and opinionated as the people you think you’re better than.

  83. Iron Curtain ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

     Hey, Just because BioShock wasn’t as good as System Shock 2 doesn’t mean Bio Shock was a bad game. That’s like saying Mega Man 5 is a bad game or Super Mario Bros. 2 is a bad game when they beat a whole lot of crap that’s put out on the NES. 

    Basically, what I’m saying is, have some perspective, geez. 

  84. Anonymous says:

    If there is money involved *And clearly Rockstar has alot of it* there will be people wanting their piece of the pie.

  85. Bob says:

    Why did the Aussie government effectively ban Fallout 3 but not 1 or 2?

    Government doesn’t need a reason to be stupid, it just is.

  86. Anonymous says:

    And I ask, where in the article does it say Bioshock 2 is going to be banned. Its one mans opinion.

  87. GryphonOsiris says:

    I guess the question is, under what justification do they want to ban the sale of Bioshock 2 for? All things considered, Bioshock wasn’t half as bad as other titles such as Manhunt 2, GTA IV, or Gears of War. In fact Biochock was more of a thinking man’s FPS, so I ask again, "Why ban the sequel?"

     

    "The Good, the Bad, and Videogame"
    Reviews on the best, worst, and controversial issues of Videogames.
    gryphonosiris.blogspot.com/

  88. Haggard says:

    They won’t ban it. Manhunt 2 was banned because the Daily Mail and the crusading zealots of the middle class here used it as a symbol of violent games. Bioshock? Nobody who isn’t into games here has even heard of Bioshock, and the BBFC can simply state that Bioshock 2’s violent content is justified by the context, and there have been plenty of games far more violent than Bioshock which haven’t been banned. Soldier of Fortune anyone?

  89. JB ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Bioshock was an amazing game. I’m normally not into FPS but this one I made an exception for. I look forward to playing Bioshock 2… in Canada that is. Sucks, though, for the adults in the UK. 🙁

  90. Geoff ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Let’s just stifle creativity all together while we’re at it.  For now on movies must never have nudity, cursing, or violence,  music must never have provocative lyrics or foul language, and all books must be about bunnies and rainbows.

    Rockstar is far from the only developer that has come under fire for censorship.  What about Mass Effect?  Or pretty much any shooter?  Rockstar is only cited so often because they have such a popular franchise.  If GTA never sold well the thought crime police would be targeting a different IP.

  91. Adrian Lopez ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    "Hell, R* could be a considered one of the greatest liabilitys to the industry."

    Yeah. If only developers would stick to making games that nobody wants to censor, we wouldn’t have to worry about censorship anymore. Clearly it’s Rockstar’s fault that we are surrounded by idiot politicians with a boner for censorship.

  92. davc4 says:

    I agree with you here and this honestly sounds nothing more than scaremongering.
    We also have to look at Manhunt as the exception rather than the rule, I have never played the game nor would i want to.

  93. BunchaKneejerks says:

    Oh shut the fuck up. This is the biggest pile of pish I’ve read on this site on a long time. Rockstar court controversy just about everywhere they go, I wouldn’t be suprised if that was factored into their business model. The original Manhunt sold terribly in the UK until it was wrongly linked to a murder. Hell, R* could be a considered one of the greatest liabilitys to the industry. Look at how much heat has been drawn because of that one developer.

    Let face it, Rockstar are always going to push bounderies in what is effectivly a young medium. So what happened with the BBFC is of no suprise, but what this guy is failing to acknowledge is the situation got resolved.

    Lets talk about other games that could be banned, The next Paper Mario could be banned after it was rumoured to take a dark turn with Luigi sneaking thru the Mushroom Kingdom and taking a drill to Princess Peaches skull.

  94. BunchaKneejerks says:

    Your a forum mod arent you? Is it possible you can mention to Dennis to rejig the headline/summary? Look at the number of posters who have aleady assumed Bioshock 2 is lined up for the banhammer.

  95. E. Zachary Knight says:

    This is a very hypothetical situation. He is just speculating on the possibility of a more in demand game being refused classification and then being barred from sale.

    It does make you wonder.

    E. Zachary Knight
    http://www.editorialgames.com
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  96. Anonymous says:

    THERE IS NO TALK OF BIOSHOCK BEING BANNED. THIS IS NOT EVEN A RUMOUR. ITS AN ANALYSIST JUSTIFYING HIS JOB.

  97. Anonymous says:

    There is no talk about Bioshock 2 being banned, this guy is talking hypothetically to stir up some contraversy.

     

  98. kurisu7885 (can't log in) says:

    So, absolutely no one knows anythign about the game, but these peopel are going to ban it in advance? Wow, just wow

  99. Anonymous says:

    They could probably go a long way to avoiding a ban if they just switched to something that didn’t look like a needle to inject plasmids 😛

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