U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark Knight

August 5, 2008 -

Labour MP Keith Vaz, long a critic of violent video games, has taken umbrage to the BBFC's rating of new Batman flick The Dark Knight.

As reported by The Register, Vaz and Conservative MP Iain Duncan Smith object to the film's 12A rating, which means that under 12s can see The Dark Knight if accompanied by their parents:

...Vaz said: "The BBFC should realise there are scenes of gratuitous violence in The Dark Knight to which I would certainly not take my 11-year-old daughter. It should be a 15 classification."

 

Vaz, who has previously railed against video game violence, wants to get the BBFC before his committee's hearings on knife crime later in the year. Presumably its representatives will be required to explain what they think they're doing fostering violent knifey rages in children...

 

The BBFC has defended its rating, admitting that while it was a "borderline" decision, the violence is in over-the-top comic-book fashion and does adhere to the guidelines for a 12A certificate. With a 15 certificate, said spokeswoman Sue Clark, "Younger teenagers would not have been able to see it, and they are the very people who are going to love it. We would have ended up with far more complaints from people who wanted to see the film and couldn't."

 In light of Vaz'z criticism, it's interesting to note that the BBFC will soon take over video game rating chores if the British government has its way.

 


Comments

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Thanks good job;

Btw, I think Atari and Midway will drop out too, but mostly travesti because  these guys have done nothing travesti or little and need to start saving costs. and dizi izle

YES.

Now I don't have to get off my ass for the important shit anymore!

Whats next, ordering pizza from Xbox live?

Wait... I think that sounds like a good idea.

But I think voting should MAKE you get off your ass, and see outside or a second while you go vote. I mean, your picking the president of the United States of America for God's Sake... least you can do is drive down there and punch out a card.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

I'm all for freedom of ttnet vitamin speech and allowing rent a car game makers to put whatever they want in games, but there's one thing about this app that has me scratching my head.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but from araç kiralama the previous article araba kiralama on this I gathered that players can use Google maps in-game to find the other (real-life?) dealers in their area.  If this is the case, has travesti anyone considered what's stopping someone from using this app to actually move drugs between hands for reals?

But majority araba kiralama of their outrage araç kiralama stems from what it could DO TO children, not the content itself.  Talk to one of these people and you'll find they don't think any books kiralık araba should be banned from children.  Mention American Psycho and they talk about kiralık araç the redeeming value of using imagination to construct a story.  Reading, no matter what the content, is largely viewed as a consequenceless activity for people of any age.  The reason why I mention American Psycho is because of the content itself.  Gaming never has and likely never will have any scenes where someone has sex with a severed head.  Not gonna happen.  Yet despite this, they'll fight tooth and nail to protect their children from two boys kissing in Bully but whatever they read is harmless... yeah.

The entire arguement is kiralık oto based upon a social normality inflicted by luddites who can't figure out the controls for Halo so it's frightening and terrifying and obviously the cause of youth violence on the rise even though, in reality, it's in decline (which is actually a HUGE suprise given minibüs kiralama the economies status).  In  a perfect world, we would have parents that actually parent.  The idea of sales restrictions on media on oto kiralama any form to accomidate parental unwillingness to get involved with their child's life is the real problem to me.  Here I am, 32 years old, and being held up at a self-scan rent a car needing to show ID before I can buy a $10 M rated game all because Soccer Momthra can't be bothered to look at the crap Billy Genericallystupidson does in his free time.  It's too hard for her, so I have to suffer?

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Who gives a shit how gory it is? If its too violent, then why the hell don't the parents just leave the fucking theatre?

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

The point of an age restriction is to stop children from getting into inappropriate movies. Whether the parents are there or not is immaterial.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Worryingly I have to agree (at least in part) with Keith here, the latest Batman film got off very lightly IMO. Ok so you don't see blood, but the violence is casual, pretty sadistic when it's not being cold blooded and relentlessly threatening. Besides, in someways the implied gore and violence is worse than graphically showing it (although two-face was grissly enough). Start to finish the movie, is dark, tense and violent in a way a 12 rated video game could never be.

Personally, much as I enjoyed the film I was pretty surprised to see it rated 12A, and this lax rating of movies appears to becoming ever more common. I first noticed the BBFC's relaxed standards when Casino Royale got a 12A rating (again despite being very violent), but I'm not sure why. I'm all for giving parents the choice, and indeed think rating should be advisory rather than statutory, but the certificate given should properly inform for the system to work. In that context I think the BBFC really made a mess, TDK's relentless menace definitely failed the 12A Horror criteria: “Sustained moderate threat and menace are permitted.” (my emphasis).

As it happens I’m apparently not the only one to think so either. At the very least there's something of a mismatch requiring a ratings tweek here, as large numbers of people are begining to notice film ratings don't correspond to their expectations.

Gift.

 

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

GP wrote:

"In light of Vaz'z criticism, it's interesting to note that the BBFC will soon take over video game rating chores if the British government has its way."

Eh? The BBFC have been rating games for years! What's this "will soon take over video game rating" nonsense?

And they have no link to the government, so there will be no kowtowing to ignorant dicks like Keith Vaz, who doesn't want to take his daughter to see a film that the BBFC thinks she isn't old enough for anyway.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Most film rating boards in countries across the globe have very specific film rating guidlines.  The same reason Batman got a PG vs. PG-13 in North America.

Dark Knight is quite clever actually, ever notice, for all the face cutting that goes on in the movie, you never even actually see blood pool from any of these wounds?

It is actually quite a comment on the quality of the writing, acting, and visuals of the film that the viewing populous can have such a viseral reaction to what is going on "off camera".  If more films took this sort of careful approach to the work we would have more Star Wars calibre films (and Batman is beginning to approach that level, Dark Knight was excellent, and I have never said that about a super hero film before)

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

I agree. I also said before that these squeamish moments are cleverly edited. I imagine it's what kept the movie in its PG-13 rating.

I think the visceral feel should have little impact on the rating of the movies because everyone has a different reaction to what they see. If I'm not mistaken, some woman actually got a heart attack from watching Passion of the Christ, but it did not prompt theaters to quickly take the movie reels off their screening rooms.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

My thoughts exactly.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

'under 12s can see The Dark Knight if accompanied by their parents'

um.. if accompanied by their parents.... the problem solves itself.

i wish Vaz would STFU. What he's basically saying is that parents dont have th right to decide if their 12 year old can see 'the dark knight' but for some reason he does.

*sigh*

 

 

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

No, he's saying that 12A was the wrong age restriction. Even though I hate to say it, I agree with him, and I'm not the only one.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

You know something strange, I actually agree with him, here in the states it got a pg-13 and if it had been just a little more violent it would have gotten an R. some parents think just because a movie is based off a comic book, it's ok for little kids, I even once saw a guy take his son to see Blade 2 even though it's rated r.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Everyone complaining about TDK being rated too low needs to grow a pair, seriously. There was no reason why it needed a higher rating other than prevent mommy and daddy from taking their little brat to a movie that may give them nightmares, which unless your kid already has issues, it wouldn't. That's the fault of the parents and I think TDK was all over the place enough to where you could get an idea as to what the movie was like months before it was even released. Hell, maybe ET should have been rated "R" because ET scared the shit out of me when I was little, especially that scene where he gets sick and laying out by a stream or somewhere and having turned white, I even had nightmares/delusions about ET's head floating above my bed saying he was going to kill me. Oh yeah, I was two years old at the time. 

I saw movies that were a million times worse than that later on including R rated movies (in the age range of the people who are bitching about taking their kids to see TDK) and none of them had that effect on me.

 

 

Queef Vag is not only an idiot, but a bad father as well and his daughter looks like she's going to be another one of those poorly adjusted kids if TDK upset her so much, same with the rest.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

When I was reading this, I read it as if it was all caps-locked... :)

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Heh and done in a sort of neat manner that wasn't literally in all caps and thus a bitch to read.

 

I'd like to show Vaz a magic trick....

 

 

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

As would I ;)

-- teh moominz --

-- teh moominz --

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

"The BBFC should realise there are scenes of gratuitous violence in The Dark Knight to which I would certainly not take my 11-year-old daughter."

If only the BBFC could come up with a rating that would mean parents get the final say in whether their 11-year-old daughter can see it. They could call it 12A or something.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Hey what does batfanboy JT have to say about this?

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

I will say this much, this version of the Joker was freakin terrifying at times.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

I think the rating given to it is fair. To believe otherwise is to assume that a 12 year old has a sensitive and innocent mind that just can't be corrupted. I don't know about a lot of you but I've been watching R rated movies many years prior to when I technically should've been allowed to.

Yes, there are certain aspects of the movie that may be disturbing but given how little screen time these things get I'd say a higher rating wouldn't have really been necessary. Though I suppose we all will disagree on what constitutes disturbing material I don't think I could say this movie was disturbing enough that I wouldn't let a young child of 11 or 12 watch it. It's not THAT bad.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Dark Knight may scare little kids, but Joel Schumacher's Batman movies traumatized everyone, even grown men.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

There's no one universal standard for movies OR games to have a certain rating and anyone who thinks a different ratings system will fix the problem is delusional.  Casino Royale is rated PG-13, and I didn't hear anyone crying about it.  I personally think it's more graphic than The Dark Knight in some ways.  Anyone who's seen it will know what I'm talking about.

M. Carusi

Capitol Gaming

augamers.blogspot.com

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

I've seen Casino Royal...I have no idea what your talking about. The Dark Knight is straddling light horror, but Casino Royal is a BA action movie with some sexuality (which, if you've seen any other James Bond...), nothing over-the-top...

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

I think he is mainly referring to the torture scene near the end.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Yeah, a torture scene where someone gets stripped naked and has their testes smacked with a rope knot in order to get them to talk strikes me as graphic. :P

M. Carusi

Capitol Gaming

augamers.blogspot.com

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Why so stupid Vaz?

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

"In light of Vaz'z criticism, it's interesting to note that the BBFC will soon take over video game rating chores if the British government has its way."

Please stop saying things like these. It already does do game ratings to some extent, and it has no-one to take over from. Such sentences massively oversimplify the situation, and mislead those who do not know much about it.

As per Wikipedia: "Normally these are exempt from classification, unless they depict human sexual activity, human genital organs or gross acts of violence, in which case the publishers should submit the game for classification."

Phrases like "if the British government has its way" also do not help, because you are saying it as if it is against what the UK populace wants when I think it's fair to say most are really not that bothered. I remind you the UK is not the US.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Yes many of us ARE bothered - we did NOT vote bastard brown in, but right now he and his cronies are trying to regulate EVERYTHNG in UK citizen's lives, no matter how small. The populace WILL vote Labour out, but heil commandant will squeeze every day he can out of his coup. Statements like that do help, because it shows the feeling that we all aren't nu-labour brown-nosers, like many of the neds / chavs which seem to have taken over the culture of this once-grand country (red-neck trailer trash, for an American interpretation)

 

Hell, the police set-ups and reason for busting up  peaceful protest over 'lack of emergency exits' is the weakest facade I have ever read.  IT'S A FIELD, for fucks sake. Labour desires state ownership of everything they can - Northern Rock, transport networks, and now the classification system.  I cannot wait to emigrate and get far away from people who believe statements like you make here. Hell, I'd prefer America than the censoring body arseholes like Vaz would make this country if they had their way.  Yes they would, there is no denying that.

 

The people most capable of running this country are far to smart to get involved in politics.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

IF ONLY Labour had control of the transport networks... in 1997 John Prescott promised that the rail networks would be taken out of private hands and failed to deliver.  Sadly we are now left with a train system where tickets from Edinburgh to London cost £80 whereas it costs £35 to fly!  Northern Rock was kinda a forced issue what with the press causing a run on it with scaremongering tactics; if the government didn't step in then tens of thousands of people would have lost their houses from the collasp.  The classification system has always been under review, and morons like Vaz aside, I think this is at least one issue that has been dealt with properly; the Byron report was very impressive when we thought it would be sensationalist.  Police powers... yeah, there we definitely agree.

In short, I'm no fan of Labour, but at least let's get some sense of fact here, yes?

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

For the 100 millionth time, voting in the UK does NOT WORK LIKE THAT!!! Please read up on the matter.

Oh, and take your pills, man. Relaxing makes you live longer :)

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

As interesting as your paranoid ravings are, I think you could knock it down a notch.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Much of the US "soccer mom" population is stupid, hell, a lot of the US population doesn't know anything ABOUT their own country, let alone the Constitution...Mant just follow the media and rally for that

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Having seen the movie twice, I would have to say that I feel the general rating for The Dark Knight is a bit too young.

I found the movie to be quite disturbing at points.  Perhaps because younger minds can't understand the depth of insanity that the Joker represents.  But everyone can understand the horrorific appearance of Two Face.

In my opinion, it suffers from the same kind of thing that video games did at the beginning of the whole "games are evil" thing.  The Dark Knight gets a bit of elbow room because it's Batman, and Batman is for kids (right?).  People assume it's okay for kids, because it always has been... until they actually start paying attention to the content.

Anyway, ratings are guidelines, they are not rules by which you should raise your child.  That is and always should be up to the parent.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

While it does have fantastic elements it's not a pure fantasy movie.

Batman was originally serious (in the Detective comics) then made campy in the 60's, and then attempted to be made dark again starting in the 80's. However, Batman is still bound by morals and does not try to kill anyone. The movie I'd say walks the line between PG-13 and R.

I don't know to what extent they mean when a movie "dwells on violence" but The Dark Knight is definitely up there. It had at least two squeamish moments of injury, though they were cleverly edited so you don't see much blood. But it does make up for it with Bat-fisticuffs and a whole lot of explosions and gunfire. And those disturbing moments made a point, to show how messed up the Joker is. But I don't think they were overdone.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

The "attempt" at being made dark agian started in the very late 60s and through the 70s with Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams and their work with Batman. Contrary to what Frank Miller and his followers would have everyone believe.

Expanded Statment from the BBFC

Good to see El Reg getting some love, but heres a larger write up from the BBC from the other day.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7540292.stm

Some Key Points

* The film regulator's spokeswoman Sue Clark said the sequel was a fantasy movie with only implied violence.

* But she admitted that the British Board of Film Classification had carefully considered giving it a 15 rating.

* The 12A rating states that a film should not "dwell on violence" and "does not emphasise injury or blood".

* Ms Clark emphasised the fantasy nature of The Dark Knight and its basis in comic books. "Batman can jump off buildings and fly and The Joker is not a realistic character and bounces back with a smile on his face."

To be fair, its not exactly like the Joker has a choice to have a smile on his face. :)

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

"Presumably its representatives will be required to explain what they think they're doing fostering violent knifey rages in children who would otherwise never see a knife nor be able to spell the word*."

If they went on pencily rages, then we'd know.  I didn't know the UK had so many movie ratings, the US only has about half that. So Vaz is critical of the BBFC's rating, but wants them to rate video games?

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

No, Vaz probably wants such decisions to be taken by Parliament if he had his way. I think what he wants is a State-run ratings body, as opposed to the BBFC which is independent from Givernment (as this case clearly shows).

-- teh moominz --

-- teh moominz --

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Can't Vas declare and rating he wants for the film inside his own consistency.  I'm sure the same was done for David Croninbergs Crash, Westminster Council, banned the film also the original Spider-Man film was down graded from a 12 to a PG by North Norfolk and Breckland District Councils (Which was the event that caused the creation of the 12A certificate).

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

My knowledge of local politics is a bit rusty, but if I recall hes the MP but that doesn't mean hes in charge of the council. There are usually seperate local elections for that position.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

You are quite correct, however Im sure Keith Vaz would have some influence over such as decision.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Is the 15 rating like R? Or is there one beyond that, like 17, but still not to an X rating? I think the American PG-13 rating is good, though it was almost pushing it.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

I believe the BBFC has an 18+ rating aswell (not sure if there's the equivalent of an X rating though)

By contrast, The Dark Knight was rated at 16+ here in the Netherlands.
As the only country in Europe I might add, even Germany put it at 13+.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

There is an R18 (restricited 18) rating that is saved for porn.

The full list is

Uc U PG 12A 15 18 R18

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

R18 is reserved for hardcore pornography, your run of the mill playboy dvd's are standard 18 cert which you can buy from any DVD stockist (HMV, Virgin, Zavvi, any airport shop, they all do them). Ben Dover and the super duper whores from bangkok are more likely to be R18 and thus sold in licenced sex shops.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

You have U for Universal, PG for Parental Guidance, 12 meaning 12 or older, 12A which means 12 or older unless accompanyed by an adult, 15 and 18, you can guess what they mean and R18 which is for hardcore pornography that can only be sold at licenced adult stores.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

I thought this movie was a R or R equivalent until reading this. The film had a very dark and violent vibe throughout, but I guess there really wasn't any gore or foul language. This would definately push the border of what a PG13(or foreign equivalent) movie can display. I think the ratings board is wrong though about teenagers being the primary target audience for the film. Most comic book readers are adults and the books themselves, especially Batman, are written for adult tastes.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

I think the point they were trying to make is that people between the ages of 12 and 15 make up a consderable proportion of the film's target demographic.

 

-- teh moominz --

-- teh moominz --

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

I feel a bit unclean. Myself and Keith Vaz, agreeing? I never thought I'd see the day. I can't stand the man, nor his attitudes towards gaming, but I also think The Dark Knight should not be a 12A. Parents can take incredibly young children to see films with a 12A rating, and given the source material ("Mummy, mummy, I wanna see Batman like I saw him on TV!) I imagine that they have. The Dark Knight is a very intense film, and Heath Ledger's Joker (whilst excellent) can be quite disturbing. Two words: pencil scene.

Re: U.K. Video Game Critic Keith Vaz Has a New Target: The Dark

Why so serious?

 
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E. Zachary KnightZippy, So you can't find even one?08/29/2014 - 1:04pm
ZippyDSMleeAndrew Eisen:Right because shes prefect and never exaggerates... *rolls eyes*08/29/2014 - 12:53pm
SleakerAnd honestly, nearly all of the games she references, or images she depicts I've always cringed at and wondered why they were included in games to begin with, from pinups through explicit sexual depictions or direct abuse. I think it's cheap storytelling.08/29/2014 - 12:35pm
Sleaker@AE - aren't most people fundamentally misunderstanding her at this point? haha.. On a related note I think a lot of the backlash is coming from males that think she is telling them their 'Generic Male Fantasy' is bad and wrong.08/29/2014 - 12:33pm
Andrew EisenAnd no, I don't think the female community would be upset over the performance of a case study in and of itself. Possibly the mostivations behind such a study, the methodology or conclusions but not the mere idea of a case study.08/29/2014 - 12:29pm
Andrew EisenAmusingly, these videos aren't saying you can't/shouldn't use tropes or that sexual representations are inherently problematic so those are very silly things to have a problem with and indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of the series.08/29/2014 - 12:29pm
SleakerDo you think the female community would get extremely angry over a male doing a case study on the negative impact of sex-novels and their unrealistic depiction of males and how widespread they are in american culture?08/29/2014 - 12:25pm
SleakerThe other thing that people might find problematic is that they see no problem with sexual representations of females (or males) in games. And realistically, why is there anything wrong with sexual representations in fiction?08/29/2014 - 12:24pm
SleakerTo even discuss or bring up these issues at a cultural level to begin with. Going straight for games to many probably feels like a huge overstepping given that it's interactive story in many cases, and when you're telling a story why can't you use tropes.08/29/2014 - 12:21pm
SleakerI think a large part of the controversy stems from the idea that games aren't culture setters, but culture reactors, and simply depict what is already in culture. So people don't care that games use tropes or are blind to them because we've failed ...08/29/2014 - 12:20pm
AvalongodBesides, what better way to make her point for her than to respond to her opinion by behaving like a misogynistic asshole. Sure, it may be a troll account, but that doesn't make it "ok"08/29/2014 - 12:19pm
AvalongodWhether Sarkeesian is "right" or "wrong" is not relevant, neither she nor any other woman should have to expect that her opinion will be met with death threats or even just sexist language.08/29/2014 - 12:18pm
Andrew EisenOh, may as well. Zip, I challenge you to cite three specific examples from the TvW videos (use direct quotes and time stamps) and explain how/why they ring hollow or are over exaggerated.08/29/2014 - 11:56am
Andrew EisenZip - Bullies on both sides? What both sides? And of course bullies are worse than people who aren't bullies.08/29/2014 - 11:23am
Neeneko(2) yes, male tropes also have problems and gender studies looks at those too. But this highlights a privilage problem, the idea that if male issues are not brought up too female issues should not be discussed.08/29/2014 - 10:42am
Neeneko@ZippyDSMlee - jumping back (1) one can acknowledge systemic problems without requiring every male be a Neanderthal.08/29/2014 - 10:42am
MaskedPixelanteI don't like the new 3DS, mostly because it means there's a good chance future 3DS games won't be compatible with the current models.08/29/2014 - 9:30am
ConsterI don't get why Amazon decided to buy this "Twitch" fellow, really. It took him ages to beat Pokemon.08/29/2014 - 8:31am
ZippyDSMleeIt goes without saying that we need to et rid of the bullies on both sides that are far worse than Sarkeesian or Quin will ever be.08/29/2014 - 8:24am
ZippyDSMleeI'm talking more about the genreal movement and how silly it is, as for Sarkeesian half of what she is says rings hollw while the other half tend to be over exsagerated.08/29/2014 - 8:22am
 

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