Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

October 7, 2008 -

Sega, publisher of the upcoming MadWorld, is working closely with the ESRB on the bloody game's content, according to a report on MTV Multiplayer.

Sega's goal, of course, is to avoid a sales-killing Adults Only rating. It's more or less a given that black-and-white (and red) MadWorld will be tagged with at least an M rating in the United States.

Of the cooperation, MTV Multiplayer's Patrick Klepek writes:

Sega is working closely with the Entertainment Software Ratings Board to ensure the game receives just an M rating, they told me. The ESRB receives new builds on a regular basis and Sega notes their feedback. Sega wants them to feel “part of the process” of developing “MadWorld” and isn’t looking to surprise them...

 

But don’t let the ESRB’s involvement make you nervous; “MadWorld” is plenty violent right now. It looks like “Sin City” was bathed in a bucket of blood.

As GamePolitics reported in August, Sega is similarly working with the BBFC on smoothing over MadWorld's path to a successful U.K. release. It's unclear, however, whether MadWorld will see release in other violence-sensitive markets, including Japan, Germany and Australia.

Although MadWorld is not scheduled for release until March, the game has already been the subject of at least one call for a ban.


Comments

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

No its getting dumped down to please the censores and ratings boards who think adults can not play violent games.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Another game is dumbed down to please the assholes in Australia.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

No, not this time.  This time this game is dumed down to please the assholes in the US and UK.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

152 comments and nobody here seems to get it. You guys need to get lives rather than writing 1000 word long diatribes about this crap. This happens a lot more than you think because money talks and bullshit runs a marathon. Some companies, like Rockstar don't care about the ratings process. They basically say, "Here's our game, deal with it." Other companies are VERY cognizant of the ratings process...the last big game that I recall a similar thing happening with was Bioshock. We saw several different versions of that game, especially the sequences on how Adam was harvested from the Little Sisters. You should have seen the original version...

"A man chooses; a slave obeys," right?? Oh, the irony of that statement did not escape me while through playing that game. :^)

Sega is just playing it "smart" here because the want this game to sell. End of story.

 

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

You can fuck off. Had it occurred to you that some of us may actually have enjoyed taking part in this debate? In fact I exited half way through to visit some friends so that I could thrash out the issue of whether or not supporting something being banned and simply not defending something from being banned were equivalent. That's called engaging with the issue, rather than laying down some snark.

You've jumped in right at the end and contributed fuck all. In fact, both Matthew and EZK had made the point you fumbled your way around a few posts above. So next time, why don't you keep your worthless drivel to yourself?

Tosser.

-- teh moominz --

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Dude, get a life. Seriously.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Oh come off it, just because we like to debate doesn't mean we have no life.

---------------------------------------------------- God created alcohol so that the Scottish and the Irish could never take over the world. -Chris 'Jedi' Knight

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

TROLL

-- teh moominz --

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

On a rather strange side note, whenever the topic of censorship and the BBFC comes up I can't help but think of an episode from the most recent Dr. Who series.  Where the Doctor ends up in a giant media sattelite that is used to manipulate the people.  Also a line where the Doctor responds to someone who says they were just doing what they were told, "With that you have lost the right to speak".

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Every time you mention the BBFC I can't help but think you havn't got the first fucking clue what your on about and start spurting the same tired censorship bullshit again without any real comprehension of why Manhunt 2 was refused classificaiton in the first place. Since then they've rated and passed games with equally if not more violent content, they've learned from the experience and moved on with their lives, why don't you?

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Having their decision overruled doesn't make up for the fact that the game was originally banned in the first place.  Furthermore the ripple effect from that is still being felt in other games such as, oh I don't know, Madworld.  So why don't you get some perspective and try to grasp the situation before opening your pie hole.  Compared to you, Chuma is the champion of thinking for one's self.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Furthermore the ripple effect from that is still being felt in other games such as, oh I don't know, Madworld. 

 

This is just utter bullshit, it's not like Sega are saying, oh sorry that Skull fucking scene we've been promising has had to be axed, it's just posturing BS from a company that hasn't even finished making the game yet. Until they actually turn around and state we couldn't include X because of the censors it's a just a load of crap

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

It doesn't matter whether or not anything IS cut.  What matters is that they are willing to do so at the command of the BBFC.  Sort of like a gift its the thought that counts.  But in this case the thought is censorship on behalf of the BBFC.

What if Sega were working with the KKK to see if the game met their standards, but no changes were announced.  What would you think of that?

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

It's not really as simple as cuts at the command of the BBFC, or editing to meet the M requirements of the ESRB for that matter (not sure how M compares to 18 tbh in terms of content allowed), it's about producing something that can legally be released to high street retailers in the first place which may mean having to make concessions to censorship, I understand that you seem to be against censorship of any sort (and the youtube link above is a fair example of why) but it is a necessity of life to get anything in the media done, without the ratings boards and censorship, things would be much worse as it opens up a free for all of blame and accountability whenever something that may be percieved as objectionable is released.

What if Sega were working with the KKK to see if the game met their standards, but no changes were announced.  What would you think of that?

I think there's enough irrelevant analogies floating around let's not throw another one up.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

I really don't give a flying fuck if it can be produced or not.  I'd rather it not be released at all than having to put up with some lesser, watered down, censored version.  I'm aware that there would be a chance if they didn't work with the ESRB or BBFC that it wouldn't get to be realeased, but I would be thankful to Sega for having the guts to stick with their vision.  And it would add just more fuel to the fire about the ESRB and BBFC just being censors which need to be dealt with.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

I'd rather it not be released at all than having to put up with some lesser, watered down, censored version. 

And how do you know this is what will be released? There's been no mention of anything actually being cut at all, your just guessing and flying off the handle because SEGA are bothering to check with someone else first.

Producing something so ultraviolent that it just sits on a shelf and can never be seen or played by ayone isn't a gutsy vision, it's just plain dumb.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Whether or not they actually cut anything is irrelevant.  The fact that they are WILLING to do so is the problem.  Can you say you would be okay if one of your parents told you "You know when you were a baby I was getting ready to sell you for crack, but then I hit that lotto ticket so it was okay!"  Would you be okay with that because, you know, they didn't actually sell you?

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Try talking to people without the analogies, or at least try ot think of one that is at least vaguely relevant to the point being made, then someone might actually listen to what your saying insted of dismissing it as a meaningless, ill-thought rant.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Then read just the first few lines: "Whether or not they actually cut anything is irrelevant.  The fact that they are WILLING to do so is the problem."

And I could drop the analogies, but its the only way I've been able to simplify my point for those with their fingers in their ears.  I could use caveman speak, but that is even more condesending.

 

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

I've read the first few lines and it completely ignores the fact that SEGA are an international company trying to make a commercial product to be sold in numerous countries with diferent regulations and who want to make money and are working within the pre-existing guidelines that they have no control over, not an indie developer trying to make some social commentry or some whiney emo bitch.

Wether they are willing to or not doesn't matter, to do their business they have to

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Screw their money.  For being whore-sellouts who are pandering to the censors trying to destroy the industry they will get none of my money.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Whether or not anything has been cut isn't really the issue. The issue is whether videogame developers ought to be taking classifications into account in the first place, as opposed to staying 100% faithful to their original vision.


-- teh moominz --

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Like them or loathe them, classifications are there so taking them into account just makes more sense, I mean as a developer you can either work within the guidelines of others and produce something your happy with, or produce something your happy with then watch as people outside of your control tell you to change it. With increasing costs and production times, not bearing the classifications in mind is poor business that will lead to time and resources being wasted that you can't afford. That or you can bitch about it on the internet but that never got no one nowhere.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

A classic argument to value pragmatism over idealism, amirite?

But in the final analysis, which position is the worthier? This is what I am struggling to reconcile.

-- teh moominz --

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

I don't know which is worthier but from my perspective, Idealism is nice, but sometimes the rest of the world is just gonna up and bite you on the ass, you can either accept that or move your keyster and try to do something about it

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

A few questions to those who deem Sega's willingness to appeal for input as wrong:-

1.  What is the difference between paying someone from within Sega to determine what has gone too far or likely to gain an AO/refusal of classification and going direct to the source of those that actually have the decision?

(My opinion here is there is a very little difference except that the ratings board aren't going to refuse an M/18 cert. if the person employed by Sega gets the boundaries wrong or tell Sega they need to tone certain sections down)

2.  Why do you believe that Sega or any other company, particularly in the current economic climate, should risk spending tens of millions of dollars on a game's production that might not get a release or potentially go over budget due to costly delays due to legal rammifications on AO/certification refusal or just failure to release the game at all?

(My opinion is that Sega are a BUSINESS.  Businesses are there to make MONEY.  Period.  This is the same reason why Nintendo didn't put a huge processor in the Wii, Microsoft didn't put wireless in their Xbox360 and Sony... well they aren't making money so I would suggest that to be BAD business sense.  This is the product of a corporate led commercial society and the reason why we get Star Wars I to III, Indiana Jones IV, Madden '09 and a bunch of other safe bets that make oodles of cash rather than risks.  If you don't like it... don't buy it!  Just don't suggest that these companies owe you anything or have some sort of obligation beyond their shareholders)

3.  At a time when games are under the microscope and the ignorant vocal minority are scaremongering do you want to court more controversy with games that are all about violence and not about the important aspects of gaming; playability, graphics, storyline(where applicable), value for money and appeal.

(My opinion is that being controversial for controversy's sake is downright pathetic and juvenile.  Trying to defend such actions on tghe basis of free speech will only get you so far before you look dogmatic and equally juvenile.  If I see gore, I wan't it to have a context.  I found the Saw movies as pathetic as the original Manhunt and neither had any credibility in my book and if they were never made, neither industry would have lost anything)

 

Please, when answering these questions, do not debate the merits of if the BBFC should be able to deny a rating or that the ESRB should given out AO if they know it won't be authorised and DEFINITELY don't start on crap like "think for yourself".  Let me tell you something about thinking for myself... I weighed up everything I know and everything I believe and came up with these opinions.  If you don't like them?  fine, but the day I listen to someone here making repeated pathetic one liners in every single post and change my viewpoint based on them - THEN I would have failed to think for myself, NOT before.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

So much of this. Sega are literally banking on MadWorld skirting the boundaries of the banhammer and then, crucially, surviving. It's how they make money while sticking to the design spec. If you want to see true unrestricted, unrated freedom of gaming expression then look to the indie PC market. Don't expect to see those games on consoles, because the consoles' catalogues are controlled by their manufacturers and they want big sales.

As for point 3, games are under media attack at the moment. Violent games are under seige, and the best way of surviving a seige is not to stick your head over the battlements and suggest that the invaders' mums are less than wholesome. Instead you bust out Wii Fit and World of Warcraft and the odd round of Team Fortress 2. OK so I dropped the analogy, but there have been too many of those today.

If I must disagree on something though, I kinda liked Saw. I love a bit of the old ultraviolence and imagination but almost literally couldn't stomach the sheer gratuity of it. With what was arguably its USP removed though, I actually thought the story was pretty clever.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

 Sega are literally banking on MadWorld skirting the boundaries of the banhammer and then, crucially, surviving. It's how they make money while sticking to the design spec.

Agreed, being able to tagline a game as "The most violent game you can legally buy in the high street" is going to give the game some 'street cred' with certain crowds, which is only going to help to raise the games profile and sales.

I don't actually think it will be the most violent game out there, I just think that's the marketing angle they are going for.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

For the record, I'm a big fan of B movies and some of those have quite a lot of gore, even humourously so.  I just found Saw... pathetic?  It was an hour long version of a joke/story I was told as a kid (the saw and the metal ankle bracelet).  Beyond that, it was just taking the death scenes out of Cube but without all the indie film plot and goodness.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

1) There is some difference, but ultimately at the end of the day it has the same result: Censorship.  They should make the game without concern for the BBFC, PEGI, ESRB, Thailand Department of Jerking Knees.  I'd rather not see their creative potential squashed by external or internal forces.

2) In all honesty in on a purely financial level of thinking they should probably just pander to the lowest common denominator.  At the time being being the whipping boy of the BBFC, PEGI, ESRB, TDJK is the most sound strategy financially.  But my interest isn't invested financially.  I'm looking at this from a viewpoint of freedom and artistic integrity.  If you eschew creativity for finances you get, the Wii.  Great for Nintendo, not so much for gamers.

3) Yes

And as a side note as far as you go I wouldn't bother with the "Think for yourself" line.  That ship has long since sailed.   I've long since come to accept that you need an organization to tell you what you should or shouldn't play.  Myself on the other hand I can say that the ESRB doesn't factor into the decisions of what I want to buy one iota.  None of these organizations have shown themselves to be of any benefit whatsoever.

Banning Manhunt 2, even for a short time and being overturned, served NO purpose whatsoever.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Just because I agree with the BBFC and adovcate their usage doesn't mean I am told what to do.  You seem to be under the delusion that unless people agree with your way of thinging they are in someway bereft of thought.  You're wrong.  What you can accept that I will stop thinking of you are juvenile....

... which is a shame really because when you actually answered the questions you offered something to the debate.  Try and stop being derogatory where it is neither warranted nor applicable and we might be able to have some meaningful discourse.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

I see that you are still completely misunderstanding what I am saying when I say "Think for yourself".

I don't think I know how to word this any better, but here goes.  Lets say there is an orange on the table.  And now lets further assume that you have never eaten an orange.  Would you prefer that some company makes an assumption on your palate or would you rather peel the damn orange open and try it for yourself?  Why aren't you offended that the BBFC decided that you aren't enough of an adult to handle Manhunt 2?


Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

To take your analogy, let's say that we replace the orange with a cake.  Let us also say that I have a nut alergy.  Should I be eating the cake without knowing what type of cake it is or if it contains traces of nut or should I have this information handed it to me on the packaging?

Let us seperate up the arguments because I think we can find some common ground here if I can explain my position without having to come up against an attack on 4 fronts:-

1.  Rating games.  I think rating games is both useful to those who want to know what a game is like and who it is suitable for.  Yes I agree that parents should be able to exercise discretion over those decisions so that a mature 15 year old should be able to play GTA, but the information of who it is aimed at and what kind of game it is still should be on the packaging.  It is in this role I defend the BBFC with all my might because I think they do an excellent job.

2.  Preventing minors from purchasing games rated above their age range by law.  Here I believe it is right and sensible to do so in the UK.  I am aware that the US differs from a legal and constitutional point of view to the UK ideals so there is some difference of opinion, however I believe that not allowing minors to purchase certain games is a good thing.  This is me making a rational decision and not just agreeing with government because they want me to (for the record I vote Liberal Democrat and they are pretty left wing as a party, so my ideals are not conservative values as a whole).  What I object to on the US side is the notion that games should be prevented from sale to minors but other media should not because there is some extra need to protect them from games.  This is why I think Jack Thompson and others are scaremongering, explotative idiots trying to make a career off ignorance.

3.  Preventing adults from purchasing certain games.  This may surprise you, but I'm not actually in favour of this.  There are certain things I don't think should be sold as entertainment, such as snuff films (beheadings and so forth) or exploitative dvds like, for example, a compliation of people beating up unsuspecting others to record for entertainment.  I have no issue with Saw, Hostel, or Manhunt 2 being released, but I DO think they are pathetic attempts at media and are only there to court controversy.  If the day comes where something is released that I think is genuinely harmful to adults then I will change my mind.

 

So actually where do I think the argument stems from?  I think it is because I support the BBFC *given the legal framework that the UK has*.  A lot of people on these forums say "I like PEGI because they don't ban games".  These people have no idea how the UK works and despite being told 100 times fail to hear that even if PEGI were in charge, they would HAVE to refuse classification to some games because that is the law in place and the moral majority view of UK citizens is one that this law should remain, or at least the politically minded majority.  I believe that within these laws the BBFC judge games and films fairly and with an up to date moral standard of the society we live in.

If you wish to debate the merits of the UK law that means that some games are refused classification and thus refused sale, then I do so.  I HOPE this clarifies the position of myself on this issue once and for all.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

"To take your analogy, let's say that we replace the orange with a cake.  Let us also say that I have a nut alergy.  Should I be eating the cake without knowing what type of cake it is or if it contains traces of nut or should I have this information handed it to me on the packaging?"

That is all well and good, but as everyone who is paying at least some attention is aware the ratings boards have long since devolved from givers of information to manipulators.  Yeah, they should tell you that the cake has nuts in it, like the BBFC should have rated Manhunt 2.  But ultimately they really shouldn't have a say in whether or not you eat that cake.  As an adult it is your decision.  In an ideal world I might support the ratings boards, but as things work in the real life I cannot without kowtowing to Thompsonites.

1) Once again, to try and make this an issue about merely education means that you would have to turn a serious blind eye to all the ways these ratings boards have stepped over from merely rating to having direct influence in the creative process.  You know, like Madworld.

2) I disagree that age ratings need to be enforced by force of law.  Once again this is taking something that should be merely informative, such as saying which cakes have nuts, and eschewing it for control of the populace rather than educating them to make their own choices.  So pretty much any headway you made with me in the cake analogy you seriously lost in this part.  This is not a list of ingredients, this is breaking your hands so you can't eat cake.

3) Why?  I mean if you support the ratings boards eschewing education for manipulation for the under seventeen crowd why not just take the last plunge down that slippery slope and let it expand to adults.  If I supported bans for under seventeen I would fully support those for over seventeen.  All or nothing.

"I like PEGI because they don't ban games"

I don't buy into that.  I fully expect they would be just as much of freedom-killing control freaks as the BBFC.  People are far too trusting of PEGI.  DON'T think that any ratings board is "pure" and don't trust them or turn your back on them.  Lest they stab you in the back that is.

"I believe that within these laws the BBFC judge games and films fairly and with an up to date moral standard of the society we live in."

And if they judge so fairly why the bans for Carmageddon, MH2, and Visions of Extascy?

"I HOPE this clarifies the position of myself on this issue once and for all."

I don't know.  It still sounds like you are putting the "moral standards" of the BBFC before your own.  I on the other hand make it a point to try and NOT agree with the ESRB.  Case in point, I think that the technicrapper color filter version of MH2 should have been rated T.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

We are at least debating now though which is good.

The creative input argument I think is false.  You better believe that in all media there is someon holding the reigns and deciding what can and cant be done or should or should not be done.  You may not like it, but it is how the world works.

1.  I wouldn't trust the BBFC blindly either.  Thankfully there is a full appeals process already set up with has been proven to work in the case of Manhunt 2.

2&3.  I see the difference between children and adults.  I don't believe that a young child should be able to purchase soemthing that they are not mature enough to comprehend fully or that might disturb them.  The slippery slope argument is actually one of the logical fallacies I often refer to.  Just because you do one thing doesn't mean you have to go further.  In actual fact my opinion is the opposite.  We currently HAVE both in the UK; I would probably reduce the adult side of it for all but the most extreme cases, but unfortunately I don't make the laws.

"And if they judge so fairly why the bans for Carmageddon, MH2, and Visions of Extascy?"

The BBFC are obliged to judge on the basis of prevailing standards within the social fabric of the UK.  In the case of both Carmageddon and MH2, they were overturned on appeal.  These are however a minute amount of cases in the sea of games they rate.   So overall, yes I am happy with their work within the laws they are bound by.

"I don't know.  It still sounds like you are putting the "moral standards" of the BBFC before your own.  I on the other hand make it a point to try and NOT agree with the ESRB.  Case in point, I think that the technicrapper color filter version of MH2 should have been rated T."

Not really.  I am putting the moral standards of the general population above my own because THAT is what the law requires.  I also DON'T make a point to disagree with someone on principle just in order to be at odds with them.  Being contradictory on principle rather than on merit I don't believe helps your case.

As for the filter, I haven't played the game yet, I only played the original, but any realistic looking deaths in a computer game is usually an instant 18 rating in the UK;  I see no reason this should change.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

"The creative input argument I think is false.  You better believe that in all media there is someon holding the reigns and deciding what can and cant be done or should or should not be done.  You may not like it, but it is how the world works."

Well in no GOOD work is anyone holding the reigns.  Any real artist would look to go beyond what the censors deem appropriate.  Whores pander to said censors and garbage is produced.  Think the controversy that has been Ozzy Osbourne's career and compare it to the more "censor safe" Backstreet Boys.  I know which I would rather listen to.  Ergo I am not going to waste my time with Madworld.  The devs have shown they have no respect for their work, so neither do I.

"I see the difference between children and adults.  I don't believe that a young child should be able to purchase soemthing that they are not mature enough to comprehend fully or that might disturb them."

I partialy agree.  You see I don't think a young child should be able to play them.  But those who should censor the child should be their parents, not the government.  The more responsibility that the government takes away from the parents the lazier parents are bred.  Frankly, lazy parents are more likely to be the cause of a Columbine than video games ever could be.

"The slippery slope argument is actually one of the logical fallacies I often refer to.  Just because you do one thing doesn't mean you have to go further.  In actual fact my opinion is the opposite.  We currently HAVE both in the UK; I would probably reduce the adult side of it for all but the most extreme cases, but unfortunately I don't make the laws."

I'm telling you I would have to go further would I share your belief of age based and legally binding censorship.  I would extend it to adults as well as children, and I would chisel the dong off of Michelangelo's David.  Sorry, but I don't beleive in doing things like this half-assed.  To me GTA4 and MH2 are completely equal in content.

'The BBFC are obliged to judge on the basis of prevailing standards within the social fabric of the UK."

How... hivemind.

"In the case of both Carmageddon and MH2, they were overturned on appeal.  These are however a minute amount of cases in the sea of games they rate.   So overall, yes I am happy with their work within the laws they are bound by."

I don't care how many thousands of other games they have rated.  Those two examples are inexcusable.  And it didn't stop with just those two games.  The chilling effect is now being felt in this Madworld debacle.  Only two games were banned, but how many hundreds of other games down the road will this effect?

"Not really.  I am putting the moral standards of the general population above my own because THAT is what the law requires."

I can't really find a way to put this that isn't going to come off as insulting or antagonistic but... that is just sad.  You have my sympathy.

"As for the filter, I haven't played the game yet, I only played the original, but any realistic looking deaths in a computer game is usually an instant 18 rating in the UK;  I see no reason this should change."

Which further proves my point that Manhunt 2 should have been rated T.  There really aren't realistic looking deaths.  Unless whenever you kill someone a lava lamp gets busted over your eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fdLtjAbjEE

I mean seriously, what the fuck was that?

"We are at least debating now though which is good."

I prefer things as they used to be.  Saying "Fuck the BBFC" is just so much preferable than banging my head against a wall, aka debating.

 

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

"Well in no GOOD work is anyone holding in the reins"

Please. Whenever you have to interact with somebody else, you have to rein yourself in.

"Those who should censor the child should be the parents, not the government"

The ESRB is the government now? When did that happen? To your actual arguement, parents need to be weaned into that mindset. With the onslaught of socialism we're now seeing (take Obama, for instance), people have clearly slowly started to believe that the government actually does them some good. The populace must be weaned off that belief. But even if they were, ratings boards would still be necessary to tell buyers the kind of content they'd find in a game.

"I can't really find a way to put this that isn't going to come off as insulting or antagonistic but... that is just sad.  You have my sympathy."

Any kind of law puts one set of moral standards over another set. You yourself wish for your own moral standard to be instituted on the populace, whether they want it or not.

"Which further proves my point that Manhunt 2 should have been rated T.  There really aren't realistic looking deaths.  Unless whenever you kill someone a lava lamp gets busted over your eyes."

I disagree. Manhunt 2 at least tried to have it look like you were killing real (video game) people with easily accesible improvised weapons. Manhunt the series shows the killings in great detail, so if you wanted to emulate them, you could. Thus, I would give it an M.

"I mean seriously, what the fuck was that?"

That's a very, very, good question.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

"Please. Whenever you have to interact with somebody else, you have to rein yourself in."

Once again, not with any quality piece of creative work.

"The ESRB is the government now? When did that happen?"

I was refering to organizations and countries with age based laws which prevent minors from buying such games.  The ESRB is a whole different can of worms.  The ESRB can't initiate such direct control as the BBFC, but that doesn't mean they don't have any control.

"Any kind of law puts one set of moral standards over another set. You yourself wish for your own moral standard to be instituted on the populace, whether they want it or not."

Incorrect.  I'm saying that individuals need to adopt their own moral standards rather than this hivemind bullshit.  Lets say that Manhunt 2 offends your morals.  Congratulations, I tip my hat to your superior morals.  Now since it offends you don't buy it.  But someone else whose morals aren't offended can still buy it.  I'm for individual morality, not my own.

"I disagree. Manhunt 2 at least tried to have it look like you were killing real (video game) people with easily accesible improvised weapons. Manhunt the series shows the killings in great detail, so if you wanted to emulate them, you could. Thus, I would give it an M."

Great detail?  Um, yeah I mean it probably would be great detail to a person who was tripping on LSD for every second of their lives.  If there was such great detail why did I not have a damn clue what was going on when I rented te game?  The confusion of just went was happening when everything went all Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds caused me to return a 5 day rental after an hour of play.

 

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

WRT the Obama comment, I think this underlines the difference in UK and US perspectives.  Obama is your left wing candidate for the Democrats, but he is still more right wing than our right-wing candidate David Cameron for the Tory Party.

There *IS* a socialism aspect with the UK that probably isn't in the US mindset and this was seen more clearly than anywhere else this election with the bailout plans for banks.  The plans nearly didn't make it through because of the ideology for not paying big corporates money from tax payers, but it had to be done as you also don't have any state funded pensions so NOT shoring up the stock market would mean nobody could retire without a LOT of capital behind them.

It's for this reason I am not surprised that some of you just don't 'get it' when I try and explain the position, not just of me, but your average UK citizen.  We believe in free Healthcare for all, State funded Pensions, and, yes, Protectionist laws for minors to prevent them getting hold of materials deemed unsuitable.  It's an intrinsically different mindset that we have here but still with a fair bit of common ground between us.

As for the rest of your comments, can I simply add that I think I agree and add my name to them also.

@Erik: I'm disappointed you would say you would prefer to just say "fuck this" or "fuck that" over debating something and trying to understand another person's perspective.  That we aren't agreeing with one another doesn't mean it is a failed debate or that you are "banging your head against" anything.  You were never going to sway me to your way of thinking, at least in its entirity, as I believe it to be an extreme in one direction and my thinking is not much for extremes.  That doesn't however mean that you aren't at least now coming across as approachable and thoughtful.  Please don't go back to old ways.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

I wouldn't describe the regulatory tradition in Europe as socialist, it goes back a lot further than socialism. It's also been employed by some fantastically right wing regimes - I need name no names.

It certainly ture that Europe has a very strong tradition or corporatism, whether the group is defined on a national basis or by way of class. That is quite starkly opposed to the individualistic tradition which holds so much sway in the US.

Socialism is a form of corporatism which also involves ownership of the means of production, so it's not really appropriate in this context as we are talking about private enterprise. But then again I'm probably just being a terrible pedant ...

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

"That doesn't however mean that you aren't at least now coming across as approachable and thoughtful."

I've never stated that I wanted to come across as approachable and thoughtful though have I?

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Well it would really help people see your perspective if you did.

----------------------------------------------------

 God created alcohol so that the Scottish and the Irish could never take over the world. -Chris 'Jedi' Knight

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

I'm not here to get people to see my perspective.  That is a fool's game.  Hence why I feel much more fulfilled when I state "fuck the BBFC" as opposed to what Chuma has labled "debate" which leaves me feeling emotionally winded.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

I, for one, appreciate it tremendously. Your more approachable attitude has provided me with much new food for thought.

-- teh moominz --

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

The ESRB and BBFC don't guess your level of enjoyment of the game, they measure its suitability for certain sets of people. A more suitable analogy would be if the orange was some sort of processed meal, which the food standards agency had analysed and slapped one of these on it:

http://www.eatwell.gov.uk/multimedia/images/document/virgin.jpg

You can then make the informed decision that you should not buy this product for your child because you don't want them to have a high-salt diet.

Does it suck that the BBFC and ESRB can de-facto ban a game by refusing a rating or hitting it with an AO? Yes. Can they change that? No. The law says games must be rated (BBFC) and console rules say no AO games (ESRB). The ban is the result of the law in the UK, Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo in the US.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

"The ESRB and BBFC don't guess your level of enjoyment of the game, they measure its suitability for certain sets of people."

And thus my point was missed again.  What I am saying is that who would know what games suit them best rather than that person themselves?  They don't know you personally so they honestly have no idea what would suit you.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

You're missing a crucial bit of information here. We do need ratings boards to help to tell us what to think. Why?

Because when we're standing in a shop, reading the back of a game box, we have not yet played it. How can we make an informed decision about a game's content, "thinking for ourselves", before we've even bought the damn thing? They're "content advisories." The ultimate decision of suitability lies with the consumer, having come to a conclusion based on box art and the various little stickers.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

Then rent the damn game.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

You really serious? You expect potential customers to rent the game first to try it out before determining whether it's a suitable purchase? Even parents buying as gifts? The ratings boards exist to analyse and present the potentially offensive content in games so that people can make informed choices without having to play the game.

Re: Report: Sega Working Closely with ESRB on MadWorld Content

"You expect potential customers to rent the game first to try it out before determining whether it's a suitable purchase?"

Yes, its just basic logic.

-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-

 
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Poll

Have you visited a video game arcade in the last year?:

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james_fudgeThere aren't many left in America08/21/2014 - 1:50am
MechaTama31I sure have. Dorky's barcade in Tacoma, WA.08/20/2014 - 5:56pm
Matthew WilsonI have not been to a arcade in years. I know arcades are still big in japan.08/20/2014 - 5:38pm
Sleaker@AE - Ah no it's called GroundKontrol - I was just referring to it as a Bar-Arcade.08/20/2014 - 4:39pm
Andrew EisenStill looking for confirmation that High Moon Studios (dev behind the PS3/360 versions) isn't working on it.08/20/2014 - 4:38pm
ZenGotcha.08/20/2014 - 4:37pm
Andrew EisenI already updated the story with it!08/20/2014 - 4:36pm
Zenhttp://www.gonintendo.com/s/235574-treyarch-isn-t-working-call-of-duty-advanced-warfare-for-wii-u-either08/20/2014 - 4:36pm
ZenLet me send the link for the Tweet as well...they state Treyarch is not working on it. Grabbing it now.08/20/2014 - 4:34pm
Andrew EisenWhere does it say that "NO dev is working on it"?08/20/2014 - 4:33pm
ZenHere's the link for my last comment: http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/08/20/call-of-duty-advanced-warfare-not-coming-to-wii-u08/20/2014 - 4:24pm
ZenWell, Call of Duty is skipping Wii U completely it seems...they updated that NO dev is working on it. Great way to just skip a market.08/20/2014 - 4:24pm
Andrew EisenYeah, Dave and Busters back in 2011 was the last time for me.08/20/2014 - 4:16pm
ZenWell, I tried lol. We just got a Dave and Busters on the beach but haven't been there yet...may go this weekend.08/20/2014 - 3:52pm
Andrew EisenIt's called The Bar-Arcade? Missed opportunity. I would have gone with Barcade.08/20/2014 - 3:25pm
SleakerThe Bar-Arcade however did have a lot of good pinball machines, they were however always taken as the place was packed..08/20/2014 - 1:17pm
Sleakerso I've been to an Arcade-Bar, not that great of a place has some okay machines, but generally over-packed. And then all the kid-friendly ones have is ticket-games nothing actually good unfortunately :(08/20/2014 - 1:14pm
Andrew EisenIf it has an area dedicated to arcade machines, I'd say it counts. Arcade machine in your house though, nope.08/20/2014 - 12:16pm
ZenDoes it count if you have actual arcade machines in your house?08/20/2014 - 12:01pm
E. Zachary KnightWith the current poll, I guess it all depends on how one defines "arcade". If Chuck E Cheese or similar multipurpose businesses count, then that is a yes for me.08/20/2014 - 11:59am
 

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