Journalist Asks: Are Games Gay Enough?

Over at Kombo, journo Brad Hilderbrand surveys how gay and lesbian characters are depicted in games and finds those portrayals wanting:

Unfortunately games have fallen back into the rut of stereotype and hyperbole. While there are brief moments in games like Fable II or Metal Gear Solid that treat homosexuality with a careful, thoughtful approach, the game industry seems to be far more comfortable sticking with tired clichés and stereotypes for the sake of not offending, but also not progressing…

 

In a market where Marcus Phoenix stands as the definition of a man and Lara Croft is the essence of what it means to be a woman, there seems to be little inclination to tackle one of society’s biggest taboos. While games have the potential to stand at the bleeding edge of social and political commentary, they prefer to play it safe and put sales above message, lagging far behind their contemporaries in television and cinema…

 

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162 comments

  1. 0
    Good Lord says:

    You had one?

    If you don’t want to buy a game with homosexual elements… then don’t buy it. Problem solved, no whining or grandstanding required.

  2. 0
    Zevorick says:

    Awwwww, someone needs another dose of manlove!
     

    *snuggles with Derovius* 

    You of all people should know the meaning of context. It was the context of the quote, in which Ghaleon was shoving off his previous identity to reveal himself as the villain. It happens roughly a fourth of the way into the game so I don’t feel too bad posting it here for anyone who hasn’t played the game. It was purposefully hammed up with a stereotypical homosexual accent by the voice actor (who has that kind of voice to begin with. You’d know that if you actually played the game) to make it a double entendre. Lunar Silver Star Story and Lunar Eternal Blue are riddled with sexual innuendos, jokes, and puns. It was intended.

  3. 0
    Faceless Clock says:

    No, a dislike of a homosexuals isn’t immature. Oh, you’d be so lucky if it was merely immature.

    Instead, its hateful, stupid, short-sighted, and ultimately a result of your inability to accept practices that differ from your own.

    Don’t threat to argue with vitrol. You’re talking about hating a group of people because they choose to love people of the same sex. There is no need for you to use angry, mean, or hateful words, because the essence of your opinion already conveys this sentiment.

    The Honest Game – http://www.thehonestgame.org

  4. 0
    Shadow D. Darkman says:

    "I remember my horror at seeing Star Trek Nemesis, and watching Diana Troy and Picard have sex."

    Picard didn’t fuck Troi. Riker did. I assume you just got their names mixed up. S’alright, if that’s the case.

    ——————————————————————————

    "Game on, brothers and sisters." -Leet Gamer Jargon

  5. 0
    treydawg says:

    Ghaleon was bad but zophar was worse depending on which system you played the game on. i had the sega cd version but he looks far gayer in the ps1 version i hear.

  6. 0
    Karsten Aaen says:

    One word or many words: Mass Effect and Jade Empire both touched the issue of homosexuality; in Jade Empire you can have a three-way, if you so choose. I think there’s a broader issue at stake here, developers afraid to touch the issue of human sexuality in games at all.

  7. 0
    Baruch_S says:

    You’re assuming that people want to step into that sort of situation. If most people don’t, the game sales go bye-bye really fast. Sending a message is great, but companies have to sell enough stuff to stay in business.

  8. 0
    Baruch_S says:

    Interesting. That would be the exact opposite of the way I would approach the scenario. Of course, we also have to remember that this is GameFAQs we’re talking about.

    Still, I suppose both ways of thinking reinforce what developers already do. Players seem most comfortable playing as a heterosexual male character. If you’re a developer trying to sell games, you’re going to want to do whatever your players want you to do. Yes, games have the potential to be a an utra-edgy and controversial art form, but I can almost guarantee that such an approach would hurt sales. Given the choice between sales and a message, I think most game developers will choose sales so they can stay in business.

  9. 0
    Arell says:

    You make some good points, and I do agree on a certain level.  However, that’s not the kind of rationale I got from the gamefaq’s discussion.  Straight or gay didn’t really matter, only the object of effection (dating boys or girls).

    The original point of the thread was about a female protagonist.  Even when talking about a straight girl, a large portion of the replies said they couldn’t handle going through the dating part of the game (which would have been about a girl going on dates with boys).  So while you say that we should be able to relate to a heterosexal character’s relationships even of the opposite sex (while maybe still awkward), apparently that wasn’t the case for many.

    On the other hand, quite a few of this same group said they’d be more than willing to play through as a girl if she were homosexual.  If it’s harder for a straight person to relate to homosexual relationships, that seems odd.  But really, these guys were comfortable with the idea if it were lesbians.  Hell, they were probably more enthusiastic about "roleplaying" a lesbian than they were about "roleplaying" a stright male.  From this I have to conclude that "roleplying" isn’t even part of the discussion, especially since we’re talking about a JRPG.

    Basically, they only had problems with any scenario where they, the player, was controlling a character that hit on boys.  Didn’t matter whether the character was heterosexual or homosexual.  If relating to the character mattered to them, then even the lesbian option would have been uncomfortable to them.  But that wasn’t the case.

  10. 0
    State says:

    I find it laughable that people say that gay characters shouldn’t be included in games because they believe homosexuality to be morally wrong, yet no one has a problem with GTA in which you play a as criminal taking part in morally wrong behaviour.

    I remember the same arguements with Brokeback Mountain in which a film about homosexuality was condemned by many for its subject matter because it could lead people to become homosexual (although it’s not possible) yet they seemed okay with films about serial killers (in  which the killer is the anti-hero type character).

    If we can’t have films and games with homosexuality because some believe it to be morally wrong behaviour, then why do we have films and games about killers and criminals?

    Also as I have said before and others this isn’t just about homosexuality, it’s also about the lack of love interests for female characters (because young boys are so homophobic, they don’t want to play as a female with a male love interest) and this makes for rather flat characterisation.

  11. 0
    David says:

    In a market where Marcus Phoenix stands as the definition of a man and Lara Croft is the essence of what it means to be a woman, there seems to be little inclination to tackle one of society’s biggest taboos.

    And why should there be?  I don’t like being preached at by my entertainment, and I’m sure as hell not going to pay $60 for the "privilege".

  12. 0
    Aliasalpha says:

    Oh come now, you’re not seriously saying that Captain Jack is gay are you? He’ll shag ANYTHING

    Jack was always more likely to be a balanced portrayal of a gay/bi guy though becuse he was written by one, thats probably another reason why games lack major gay characters, a relatively small number of gay writers.

     

  13. 0
    Baruch_S says:

    I think the main character either has to add to the game or detract from it. Essentially, you’re becoming that character if you’re roleplaying. You either empathize with the character and enjoy taking on the roll or don’t connect with the character and don’t really enjoy playing as him/her.

    If you’re heterosexual, I think you can still identify with a character of the opposite sex in a romantic relationship. Hell, you have to be able to identify with a member of the opposite sex if you want to maintain a romantic relationship in the real world. As a heterosexual person, you don’t fully understand the opposite sex, but you understand the relationship well enough to empathize with and understand them. It would probably be more awkward for a person of one sex to roleplay a character of the opposite sex in a romantic situation, but it’s doable.

    On the other hand, I think heterosexual gamers would have more trouble identifying with a homosexual protagonist. The entire attraction would be rather foreign to the player because his/her mind simply doesn’t see things that way. Players can appreciate (or at least deal with) homosexual secondary characters, but I think they’d have more trouble connecting with a homosexual main character simply because they don’t can’t easily relate to that character’s attractions.

  14. 0
    KayleL says:

    That isn’t what I meant. Just to make it clear, I am all for gay people to live the way they want, mostly because I believe everyone should have equal rights in every single way.

    What I meant for yelling is pretty much what it sounds like, just going out to the public, and announcing your sexual orientation to the world, and let everyone know about it. Not only that it’s not necessary, but just because you don’t see that in movies or video games (in a mature manner at least), doesn’t mean there needs to be more of it. Dumbledore from Harry Potter is gay, but you never see a gay reference in any of the books. You would only know that because J.K. Rowling said it to a little kid.

    I bet most people don’t know that Rick Mercer is gay, but he openly admits it. But he doesn’t go on his show and starts announcing it to the world. (By the way, he has a damn great show.)

  15. 0
    catboy_j says:

    I have a question. I’ve seen the argument in this thread, and in other sites that if we include gay or lesbian love scenes or characters in games that it’s forcing people who don’t believe in that to sit through it? Well Does that mean I’m forced to sit through straight love scenes and plots?

    I remember my horror at seeing Star Trek Nemesis, and watching Diana Troy and Picard have sex. It almost ruined star trek for me, and I am bisexual. I get sick of the excessive sex in everything, but how can you really say that gay/lesbian sex belongs in the bedroom privatly but not straight sex unless you make the argument about gay and lesbianism not being normal or even right.

    Also I think that probably anything with a major gay lovestory or sex plot would automatically be classified LGBT which would just end up doing more damage to the game as far as mainstream medium goes.

    But seriously how is it being forced to sit through something you don’t like or believe in if there’s gay characters in games, but not straight characters?

    Plus non gay couples may be more common, and even non gay people, but there are a lot of gays, lesbians, bisexuals who do like videogames. And I know plenty of people who don’t care about it period. Like so what, I kiss my girlfriend outside why can’t she kiss hers type thing.

  16. 0
    questionmark1987 says:

     I don’t care what you believe, opinion should have no basis for a dissemination of an idea to the masses. Some people think its alright to pour molten candle wax all over each other while sodomizing farm animals, doesn’t mean they should be teaching children about it. If it comes down to household pressure as the cause of this immoral idealogy, who are you to tell people how to raise their children? They have as much right to teach them that homosexuals are dirty, hellish things as they are to teach tolerance.

     

    Of course they ahve the right to teach their children that. But explain to me why one group gets to decide what all of society needs to follow?

    Gays never tried to stop christians from going to church. They never asked to have churches forced to recognize gay marriage. They are asking for equal inclusion in the legal aspect of marriage.

    Frankly religious marriage is not what it always has been (and if you think it is you need to reread your bible.) Personally Iw ould rather see marriage removed from all legal papers and replaced with "Civil Union". The church can keep the marriage title, but legally no one should be married, just civilly unioned. Then the church can have their term, the law can have equality and everyone will be equal.

     

    Asking to have marriage as both a legal and religious term reserved for heterosexuals only is not only wrong it’s unchristian.

  17. 0
    questionmark1987 says:

    You make a good point. but I would say that because games as a medium (and entertainment in general I guess) is often sought out to allow us to step into situations we normally would be unable or unwilling to fulfill in reality, that it’s an important topic that could be explored through games.

  18. 0
    questionmark1987 says:

    And as I said part of a lot of these actions is a reaction, to fear, being marginalized etc.

    I agree that if ti is involved (in any media really not just games) it shouldn’t be thrown in just for kicks or to prove a point. But what you’re describing would be bad writing no matter what the scene or situation, it’s not specific to gay relationships.

    A game writer could make a script that was as endearing as any of the great game relationships we know and love (I’m leaving it up to you to pick your favorite here) and it could just as easily be a straight or gay relationship.

    My example, I really liked the love story in Final Fantasy X and X2 (I know most people hated X2 but it was an interesting if not entirely well done addition to the storyline). My point is that the thing that makes us love these stories is not the fact that it’s a hot guy/girl (based on your preferance) in the scene, it’s the situations and obstacles involved in the story and how they are dealt with that make it good.

    You’re making a blanket assumption that because there is an overwhelming prejudice against homosexuals in our society that it’s not possible to have a decent love story written into a game about them, and that there is no good way to involve them in a game. I would say a more accurate statement is that games in general do not handle relationships well for the most part, but that a homosexual relationship could be included in a storyline just as well and easily as a straight one. The difficulty comes in writting the story well, not in the gender of the characters being portrayed.

  19. 0
    BrandonL337 says:

    our population is already to high and climbing, you fail!

    There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can’t do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

  20. 0
    BrandonL337 says:

    I assume you yell that your gay during arguments with your mother because she "disapproves" of your orientation.  I feel bad for ya bro, it sucks that your mother is like that.

    There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can’t do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

  21. 0
    BrandonL337 says:

    Anti-heterosexual mobs? oh please ther is no such thing.  They only exist in the minds of homophobic jackasses, they need to grow up pull the, erm, sticks out of their collective asses and stop making shit up.

    There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can’t do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

  22. 0
    State says:

    The it’s the degradation into schoolboy humour. Express your dislike of homosexuality if you want, but of course your credibility would be greatly increased if you saw more in the issue than a couple of crude jokes.

    It just goes to show how hard it would ever be to get sex and similar matters to be taken seriously in games.

  23. 0
    Doomsong says:

    That…. was brilliant.

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  24. 0
    Shadow D. Darkman says:

    While I can simply say that it’s implied that you said something right, I can’t say it outright or believe it without Dividing By ZERO.

    ——————————————————————————

    "Game on, brothers and sisters." -Leet Gamer Jargon

  25. 0
    Arell says:

    Any more awkward that a straight woman having to roleplay hitting on girls?  Let’s face it, the JRPG sub-genre doesn’t really have a whole lot of "roleplaying."  You play stories that already have defined protagonists.  Persona just offers a little more freedom in some of the socialization, but the overall story arc is already linear and set in stone.

    The issue at hand is, with everything else that Persona offers (great story, character interactions, enjoyable combat, monster-raising demons, etc), should the fact that the main character is female or gay be a deterrent from enjoying the game?

  26. 0
    ZippyDSMlee says:

    Gay in this trem mirrors the amount of people that follow X life style, so since non gay couples are the higher avrage, then theres not going to be ALOT of gay in game..unless you count bad game designs…but thats using the word in a diffrent way.

    Could there be alil more, sure you can always have charatcer that get along really well and never really dev into thier relationship much and becoeeing flame bait and all.


    Shearing/Downloading will never be a mainstream market.


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes
    of transportation of story and thought, to take them from
    society and you create a society of children and nannys

  27. 0
    Arell says:

    I have no problem with gay pride events, they’re no different to me than the "Take Back the Night" events that women hold, or a cultural fair for foreigners to show off thier nation.  These events serve the purpose of raising awareness, and those that wish to be exposed to them can attend.  But I’m still talking about something entirely different, and I don’t think you mean to deflect, but you are. 

    As we have been talking about with gays in video games, there’s only a few ways to alert the player to the fact that someone is gay (since they are people just like everyone else).  You either go with a stereotype.  Or you can announce it in a blatently ridiculous scene that has little bearing on the story, because the writer is artificially trying to prove something.  Very few games, like SO3, just let the character’s sexual orientation flow out of interactions in a natural way.  Most of the time, a scene with a homosexual relationship is designed in a way to bring additional attention to it, it’s something "special" that you’re supposed to react to, and not just a matter of fact as part of the character’s identity.

    So I’m not talking about gays having to hide, or they should just keep it to the parades.  I am talking specifically of homosexuals that make it a point to let their sexuality become their "everything."  That’s what I feel when I see someone make a huge announcement to random strangers, or when they go super-flamboyant to catch everyone’s attention.  I wasn’t saying it was wrong to have your sexual identity as part of how you are identified.  However, it shouldn’t be your defining trait, like a label by which you are associated.  "Hi this is my friend Terry, and he’s gay."  That person’s first impression of you is now about what you do in the bedroom.  Not, "Hi, this is Terry, and he works in the automotive industry," or, "Hi, this is Terry, and he loves jazz as much as you do."  Nope, he’s now "Terry the gay guy."  And there is a difference with if you introduce your gay boyfriend to our coworkers, and throwing it out there to random strangers.  Don’t strawman me.

    Like I said several times already, gays shouldn’t hide it.  They should treat their lovers in public just as any couple would.  But they also shouldn’t flail it about their head like a mace, ready to strike at anyone that gets within range.  For true equality to be reached, gay people will end up treating their sexuality the way straight people do.  That it’s no big deal.  By making it a primary factor of your identity, all you are doing is reacting to the prejudice.

  28. 0
    Andrew Eisen says:

    "When did we start talking marriage?"

    It confuses children if they are told that there are many different ways for someone to be married.

    "Marriage is the perview of religion…"

    Not exclusively.

    "You only want to show pornography to children."

    Not what I said.

    "I don’t care what you believe, opinion should have no basis for a dissemination of an idea to the masses. Some people think its alright to pour molten candle wax all over each other… They have as much right to teach them that homosexuals are dirty, hellish things as they are to teach tolerance."

    Not even remotely related to what I was talking about.

    "So you’re saying the society has absolutely no effect on a person sexual identity, and yet you want society to take a more active roll recognizing homosexuals as acceptable."

    Also not what I said.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  29. 0
    Derovius says:

     How is this not being handled well? Oh, oh I see. People are expressing a dislike of homosexuals, that must mean they are immature. That makes you no better than religious people demonizing homosexuals, as far as I’m concerned. So I’ll approach your arguments with the same vitrol.

  30. 0
    Derovius says:

     And people still hate black people; no one will change their opinions because society tells them to, they either do it themselves or hate quietly. Such is how the law works, you be as big a bigot as you want so long as you don’t infringe on their safety.

     And no, I’m not interested in you either State. I know I’m sexy and all that, but this has to stop.

  31. 0
    State says:

    A thread about homosexuality and it gets taken over by silly comments because obviously the topic at hand can’t be handled with maturely by some. This is why homosexuality is not present in many games because teenage boys can’t handle the subject well at all.

  32. 0
    State says:

    They have as much right to teach them that homosexuals are dirty, hellish things as they are to teach tolerance.

    I think I heard the same argument about black people fifty years ago.

    Out of interest how old are you?

     

  33. 0
    questionmark1987 says:

    I’d actually liek to see a serious game where a person ahs to deal wiht coming out and the repercussions in our society currently from it. Might help a lto fo people gain perspective.

  34. 0
    questionmark1987 says:

    Like I said, the outburst of "I’m GAY!" randomly in public is odd to say the least. But things like pride parades are meant to bring to people’s attention that yes, there are gay people around you. How many times have you heard some random person on the street saying something derogatory about gay people. A lot of times those people aren’t necessarily prejudiced, they wouldn’t say something to hurt or offend a gay person, it’s just common habit (example: [insert anything here] is gay).

    The point is to make people realize that there are gay people all over the place, and to get them to start realizing that we really are just another sub group of the general population. Basically by making a spectacle of ourselves we:

    1. Reaffirm ourselves for ourselves so that we don’t feel like outcasts.

    2. Reaffirm to the community in general that we exist.

    3. Give people a chance to experience our culture (yes I’m referring to things like the leather/bondage community, Drag queens etc. A lot of those people do a lot of good for the community through events and fundraisers) and an opportunity for someone who hasn’t had direct first hand experience of a gay person or gay culture a safe place to explore that without being afraid that they will get hit on or offend someone.

    A lot of straight people come to gay pride events to learn, make friends, and talk to people and a lot of pride events are more geared towards dealing with current issues and education. They also are good ways for people to learn about gay owned and operated businesses in the area and ways for people who haven’t come out yet to be able to make friends without endangering their secrecy.

    What I find odd is that straight people get offended by it. We aren’t the ones telling you to hide yourselves away because you’re weird. In fact I find the most encouraging thing to me is to have a straight friend or family member come to a gay pride event because it shows me that they really do consider me and other gays just another part of the community whole.

    It’s essentially a regular festival when you get right down to it, with food, vendors, entertainment (men’s choruses, performers, singers, plays, dances, parties etc.) and rather then being based around cars (car shows) or holidays (christmas parades, thanksgiving parades, large scale easter egg hunts), or city or state anniversaries, or race (black pride parades), or political stance, it’s based around sexual identity, and acceptance and tolerance of ALL sexual identities.

    In essence it’s not even just about gays, it’s about tolerance for everyone regardless of their sexual identity or preferance. Which means it SHOULD be just as affirming to you as it is to me.

    And I almost forgot, why si it a negative thing for sexual identity to be part of how you are identified? Isn’t that how we identify mothers and fathers, husbands and wives? Girlfriends and boyfriends, those terms wouldn’t exist and wouldn’t be useable if you weren’t aware of someone’s sexual identity. Is me commenting to my friend or employer that my boyfriend (I’m a guy) would like to come with me to the christmas party "shouting out" about my sexuality? Where does the line get drawn?

  35. 0
    Derovius says:

     Go google yourself the birth rates and death rates of several major Western nations. The problem is glaringly obvious. I suggest the CIA World Factbook; at least if the information is wrong, its consistently wrong for all your samples.

  36. 0
    Derovius says:

    "From marriage to porn, eh?  Bit of a jump that.  But, go ahead.  If they’re curious about love making and the parent feels the child is ready for it, I don’t have a problem."

     When did we start talking marriage? If thats the topic at hand, than its completely out of the question. Marriage is the perview of religion, and for all their uselessness, we have no more right to tell them to redefine its definition than they have to tell society to adhere to their morality.

     If people of said religion want to delve into same sex marriage in their place of worship, so be it.

    "And yes, most kids can handle porn.  Ever walk in on your parents doing it?  How old were you?  How about the first time you saw porn?  I was eight.  I turned out fine.  So did pretty much everyone else."

     Oh yeah, perfectly fine. You only want to show pornography to children. Thats the shining example of morality right there.

    "I don’t believe that.  I think any gay person living a heterosexual life does so, not out of true confusion, but out of fear and shame.  Likely derived from a household and/or societal pressure convincing this person that being homosexual is wrong or immoral."

     I don’t care what you believe, opinion should have no basis for a dissemination of an idea to the masses. Some people think its alright to pour molten candle wax all over each other while sodomizing farm animals, doesn’t mean they should be teaching children about it. If it comes down to household pressure as the cause of this immoral idealogy, who are you to tell people how to raise their children? They have as much right to teach them that homosexuals are dirty, hellish things as they are to teach tolerance.

    "Not at all.  Just because the people you describe are hiding who they are doesn’t mean they don’t know who they are. "

     So you’re saying the society has absolutely no effect on a person sexual identity, and yet you want society to take a more active roll recognizing homosexuals as acceptable. If the former is true, why argue the latter. It would be a moot point.

  37. 0
    Father Time says:

    Population crisis? You got any proof of that?

    —————————————————-

    Debates are like merry go rounds Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it’s over they have the same positions they started in.

  38. 0
    Father Time says:

    Chill, man.

    I haven’t read the article because it’s a massive wall of text but it seems like more of a suggestion then a demand. Besides even if was a demand there’s no way he’d get a bill passed to that effect, what with compelled speech being illegal and all.

    —————————————————-

    Debates are like merry go rounds Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it’s over they have the same positions they started in.

  39. 0
    CarsAreScary says:

    Marcus: "DAMNIT! MORE LOCUSTS! BY THE WAY I’M GAY!"

    Dom: "Wait, wha-?"

    Marcus: "I SAID MORE LOCUSTS!"

    Dom: "Oh"

    Marcus: "-THAT I WOULD HAVE SEX WITH IF THEY WERE WELL-BUILT HUMAN MALES LATHERED IN OIL!"

    Dom: "Christ, I just realized our hands are bigger than our heads."

  40. 0
    Father Time says:

    I can’t think of a scenario where the protagonist being gay would have a significant impact on a game’s story without it seeming cliched and/or overdone.

    —————————————————-

    Debates are like merry go rounds Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it’s over they have the same positions they started in.

  41. 0
    Arell says:

    Then what you are discribing is a symptom of a larger problem.  A large portion of society frowns upon gays, or outright discriminates against them.  So in an act if defiance, they blurt it out openly and publicly to force people to pay attention.  However, that’s not optimal, as they are only reacting to prejudice. 

    I’m not talking about two guys holding hands and giving each other a peck before class.  That’s standard PDA, and there’s nothing wrong with that (I do take issue with anyone, straight or gay, trying to slurp out each other’s tonsils in public.  eww).  But it’s quite another thing to make a spectacle of yourself, to brandish your preferences as some sort of challenge.  Do you want the crowd of strangers to be proud of you, or are you trying to make them uncomfortable?  Ideally, they shouldn’t care what orientation you are, so it would be rather pointless and rude to impose your sexuality on others.  Worse, you are making what shouldn’t mean anything, into the defining trait that everyone identifies you with.  What would that be like if everyone did it?  "Hello fellow employee, my name is Blank, it’s nice to meet you.  By the way, I have a bondage fetish.  So, would you like to begin the presentation?"

  42. 0
    Andrew Eisen says:

    "Along this same illogic thought path, lets start showing children pornographic material to show them how copulation takes place."

    From marriage to porn, eh?  Bit of a jump that.  But, go ahead.  If they’re curious about love making and the parent feels the child is ready for it, I don’t have a problem.

    And yes, most kids can handle porn.  Ever walk in on your parents doing it?  How old were you?  How about the first time you saw porn?  I was eight.  I turned out fine.  So did pretty much everyone else.

    "Why not? It confuses gay people into being straight."

    I don’t believe that.  I think any gay person living a heterosexual life does so, not out of true confusion, but out of fear and shame.  Likely derived from a household and/or societal pressure convincing this person that being homosexual is wrong or immoral.

    "Which is why there are homosexuals out there who marry women… They are just so loopy… You underestimate the degree of control the social norm and morality has on people.?"

    Not at all.  Just because the people you describe are hiding who they are doesn’t mean they don’t know who they are.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  43. 0
    hellfire7885 says:

    In my experience usually gay characters are written as they are for humor.

     

    FOr instance Florian AKA Bernie in GTA4, he may have been a stereotype, but I hardly stopped laughing during his cutscenes.


  44. 0
    Arell says:

    Just recently on the Gamefaqs Persona 4 boards (because I’m a big nerd), someone posted the question, "would you like to se the next protagonist of the series be female."  About half the responses were open to the idea, because we’ve all done it before (The Longest Journey, Beyond Good and Evil, Tomb Raider, Wild Arms 3).  However, many were against the idea, because the Persona series has incorporated dating sim elements, and they would be too uncomfortable going on dates with male characters.  While never openly expressed, this is classic homophobia in the Western world.  "You mustn’t do anything that could even remotely be percieved as gay, because real men aren’t gay."  Even through the lens of a female game character, they couldn’t bring themselves to view a story fold out where their controlled avatar flirted and dated boys.  Many claimed they simply couldn’t relate to the situation, but that was a cover, because up until now many women gamers had played through the series with male characters, with nary a complaint.

    Another faction said they would agree to playing a girl, but only if she was/could be bisexual or a lesbian.  This showed two things.  They were just as uncomfortable as the first group about leading a female avatar on dates with boys.  But also the standard, "hur, hur, lesbians r hawt!"  Make no mistake, this group had no strong interest in seeing homosexuals represented in games in any meaningful way.  They just wanted girl-on-girl fanservice.

    Of course, this did lead the discussion to having homosexual options in future games.  The group that opposed a female avatar also opposed a gay male lead.  The ones that just wanted lesbians don’t count.  But it was almost universally agreed that IF both the gender and the sexual orientation were customizable (you pick), then that would be ok.  This allowed females and gay characters to get their feet in the door, without "imposing" themselves on those that didn’t want to experience it.  Homophobes could still play the game, and just choose options that didn’t make them question their manhood.  And people willing to try a new kind of story, could do so.

    At least two people made (not unfounded) arguements that if gay characters were included, they would probably only be useful as fanservice (or worse, stereotypical).  Considering most of the gay characters in the past, it is understandable why they’d feel that way.

    I don’t have a point to all this.  I just wanted to relate an experiece I had discussing this issue, as debated by anonymous gamer geeks on a site not known for thoughtful discourse.

  45. 0
    Derovius says:

    "Really?  I doubt that.  I think the grand majority of children are able to grasp such a simple concept."

     Along this same illogic thought path, lets start showing children pornographic material to show them how copulation takes place. I’m sure that the grand majority of children are able to grasp such a simple concept.

    "I might be misinterpreting your meaning here but I don’t think refusing to hide the fact that not everyone is heterosexual is going to confuse straight children into being gay."

     Why not? It confuses gay people into being straight.

    "I’ve met plenty of stupid people in my time but few so loopy that they could be tricked into misidentifying their sexual orientation."

     Which is why there are homosexuals out there who marry women, father children and hide their urges. They are just so loopy, wacky and otherwise unbelievable right? You underestimate the degree of control the social norm and morality has on people.

  46. 0
    questionmark1987 says:

    While the outburst you mentioned is a littler strange I have to disagree.

     

    Have you ever kissed a girl (I’m assuming you’re a guy) in public? Now have you ever seen a girl and a guy make out in public? How about a guy and a guy?

    Being gay involves hiding yourself a LOT from the general public. For fear of being attacked verbally ro physically. I avoid certain businesses and resterants that I would otherwise go itno because I’m afraid of their other clientel. Announcing or telling people isn’t about trying to be the center of attention, ti’s about not feeling like an outcast every minute.

    If you want to get an idea of how it feels, pick one week and refuse to do anything intimate (holding hands, kissing, leaning in etc.) with your partner when you’re in public. Take some time and see how it feels. I bet by the end of the week you’ll be dying to go make out at a movie or something. It makes you feel like you’re worthless and that there is something wrong with you when you have to be scared to eb who you are while other people can see.

  47. 0
    questionmark1987 says:

    And someone who is gay and playign games just needs to deal with it? There’s a lto more eye-rolling at homosexual aspects in games then hetero. And any storyline that can support a straight love story can support a gay one too. I don’t see how people think they are that different.

    Gay love stories can be just as valid portrayed with or without conflict. One (with) shows a more realistic version of how life is now for gays, while one (without conflict) presents a model of reality that would be more desireable and teaches tolerance.

     

    Win win.

  48. 0
    Zevorick says:

    If you think video games aren’t gay enough then perhaps you should try playing Lunar Silver Star Story and Lunar 2 Eternal Blue.

    The most "obviously in the closet" villian ever. Ghaleon.

    I’m sorry but when you have that accent, and one of your lines is "It’s time for my coming out party to finally begin"…

  49. 0
    Arell says:

    When I think of gays in video games, I think first of the Shadow Hearts series.  Aside from vendors always being (flamboyantly) gay, SH2 had a main character how was gay.  Joachim was a gay, pro-wrestling vampire.  Granted, he was a bit stereotypical and was never really taken seriously by the story.  There was even a side quest that involved him ending up having gay sex off screen, for laughs.

    A more positive role-model for the gay video game character would be Nel Zelpher from Star Ocean 3.  She wasn’t stereotypicly gay, she didn’t flaunt it, however it was implied several times that she and Claire had a relationship.  Even if you beat the game with her with the hightest "affection level" for Fayt, she still ends up with Claire.  This is a perfect example of how to incorporate gay characters into games without annoying everyone.  They didn’t make a big deal about it, she didn’t stop the plot to say, "oh and I’m gay," and she wasn’t a stereotype (she was badass in combat, but she was career military).  I think the biggest problem is that gay people are just like everyone else.  You wouldn’t know them if you saw them, unless they go out of thier way to announce it in some way.  Which annoys the hell out of everyone.  Once a college, a guy crossing the quad just suddenly shouted, "I’m gay!" in a joyous manner.  I shouted back, "I’m straight, but you don’t see me bragging about it."  I am all for gay rights and tolerance, but I don’t understand why announcing it to everyone is so special.

    For anyone that wants to do some extra homework:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_characters_in_video_games

  50. 0
    Andrew Eisen says:

    "It confuses children if they are told that there are many different ways for someone to be married."

    Really?  I doubt that.  I think the grand majority of children are able to grasp such a simple concept.

    "If we start confusing straight children into being something they are not, you are further reducing the breeding population."

    I might be misinterpreting your meaning here but I don’t think refusing to hide the fact that not everyone is heterosexual is going to confuse straight children into being gay.

    I’ve met plenty of stupid people in my time but few so loopy that they could be tricked into misidentifying their sexual orientation.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  51. 0
    State says:

    The reason why they aren’t included in many games is simple: profit. Developers know that teenage boys make up a big percentage of the market and they are incredibly homophobic and so they don’t want to put it in there for risk of upsetting them. If people think that it is because the developers are worried about the controversy in the press, then they are wrong because when has that stopped a company putting excessive violence and gore in a game?

    Also note how with female characters very few of them have boyfriends, but quite a lot of male characters have girlfriends (or are part of rescue the pretty girl type missions). It’s simply because a male love interest would put many teenage boys off of that particular game. The most homosexuality I see in games is when it is bounded around as abuse from gamers. Quite frankly there are not that many gamers out there who are mature enough to handle the subject (just look at some of the above posts).

    Lesbians are seen more often (particularly lipstick lesbians) because again it gets the teenage boy interested in the game, Fear Effect 2 being a perfect example. In Mass Effect the female could go gay, but the male couldn’t, a bit unfair really.

    I must say that Rockstar have done a lot of positive work towards this issue. Bully featured it, and although there were some stereotypes in GTA4 in missions you defended the gay character from the anti-gay crowd, Bernie was your friend.

  52. 0
    Derovius says:

     It confuses children if they are told that there are many different ways for someone to be married. This is why all children should be raised with the original notion of pairing between a man and a woman and allowed to disagree later in life and adjust accordingly.

     At the end of the day, if you believe that indocrination can occur by having this sort of standard, its better for EVERYONE if people are indocrinated into a productive pairing/mating system. If we start confusing straight children into being something they are not, you are further reducing the breeding population. As it stands, Western society is on the verge of a population crisis; there is simply not enough births to counteract the deaths.

  53. 0
    Nagaina says:

    It’s ‘progressive’ to teach not to harm someone for something you disagree with.

    And you teach this by never addressing the issue of homosexuality as it interfaces with the larger culture…how?

  54. 0
    Derovius says:

    "Harry Potter and The Sorcerer’s Stone: Harry Potter Movie Quotes:


    Dumbledore: I was unfortunate enough in my youth to come across a vomit-flavored one, and since then I have rather lost my liking for them. But, I think I could be safe with a nice toffee. (eats it)

    Dumbledore: …Hmm, alas, earwax

    Dumbledore: Oh, did I ever tell you how I adore buggering little boys in the arse?"

     Like that?

  55. 0
    gamadaya says:

    No, because he wasn’t actually gay. Rowling just said that for publicity and to appear to appear more gay freindly. If she had any balls, she would have had him announce it in the book.

    ———————————

    Internet troll > internet paladin

  56. 0
    Wolvenmoon says:

    Perhaps it’s that no one gives a flaming flying frig about homosexuality in games, and doesn’t want someone’s perception of what a gay relationship or gay person should be forced down their throats?

    It’s bastards like these guys that make my gay friends even further segregated in society. It isn’t ‘progressive’ to force people to accept something they find morally wrong. It’s ‘progressive’ to teach not to harm someone for something you disagree with.

    However, idiots like this, even though they sound more levelheaded than greenpeace and peta, are much the same.

    It’s people like this that bring gay propoganda into first grade classrooms, that should have absolutely no mention of sexuality in them.

  57. 0
    Derovius says:

     I’m pretty sure Bill is not a fag, but Louis is hard to gauge. He screams like a girl and whines all the time. I’m thinking they are keeping Zoey around just to stave off the rumours. 3 – 4 guys running around in a zombie apocolypse? sounds pretty gay.

  58. 0
    Kojiro says:

    Who can really know how many game characters are gay?  Most video game characters don’t exactly disclose their sexual orientation.

    For example, any or all of the Left 4 Dead characters could be gay.  Just because they don’t stop for a gay pride parade in the middle of the game doesn’t mean they aren’t.  In fact, I bet Zoe is hoping they’re all gay…

    Then there is the money and controversy issue that has already been brought up.  Do you want some right wing nuts protesting your game?  And Fox News blasting it?  Or wait, maybe that’s a good idea, free publicity…

  59. 0
    Geoff says:

    And that’s why they are on the fringe, ’cause the rest of us understand that they’re nuts.

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  60. 0
    Seiena_Cyrus says:

    I dunno I’d be kinda insulted being Heterosexual if I was forced to play a character that rolled it’s eyes at my prefered romantic choice, and personally from a gameplay/story perspective…I’d like to see more Fable/Jade Empire style games…they are my favorite but there aren’t too many of them, even KOTOR Had a Homosexual twist in the lines (If I am remembering right). I much more enjoy the games that allow me to shape my own character…

    However, I’d be more offended, if they did start trashing storylines for homosexual friendly characters, if it’s not in the script it’s not in the script…and a plot writer shouldn’t have to worry about such things as they might not add to the story written, same with the fact that some stories written wouldn’t work with Heterosexual characters you know?

  61. 0
    MileyZorEl says:

    The way to correct this is to look otuside of America for inspiration. Let’s face it, we have no idea what we’re doing when it comes to non-stereotypical writing. Including gay characters do not have to involve stereotypes or overly romantic subplots. The problem is, the only way most people can picture homosexuality is masculine wymyn or feminine men, and avoiding stereotype is merely subtly showing these traits. Even our "positive" gay shows such as Will and Grace rely on such stereotypes.

    Anyone who’s really watched foreign shows, such as the BBC know that this is one of America’s flaws. Just off the top of my head, characters like Captain Jack Harkness from Torchwood, and Timebomb from iTV’s No Heroics stand out as non-sterotypical gay characters. They are characters that would not be out of place in video games, strong masculine men’s men, that also happen to have non-heterosexuality. The key is in a couple of personality mentions, that go a long way towards felshing out the character of a story.

    When you start off in the player’s house, there could be certain pin-ups on the walls, for example, and you could have the player’s character roll their eyes a bit in the presence of a heterosexual interaction. These little cues are what would identify the character as gay, without overt annoying voices or "pink armor". But it would be mroe than we have now. The reason why games like Fable 2 are ntoed for these kinds of things is because they present it to flatly and matter-of-factly, without framing personalities around it.

     

     

     

    Why are so few of us left healthy, active, and without personality disorders?

  62. 0
    ddtoronto says:

    Well, that would be because we look exactly the same as straight people, and are assumed to be straight until we reveal ourselves. That involves disclosing (which I guess you hear as yelling) one’s sexual orientation.

    I’m sure it’s happened at least one time (probably in a fight with my mother), but I can’t really remember ever "yelling out" that I’m gay. It doesn’t affect 80% of my daily social interactions. But it does affect my relationship with the books I read, the movies I see, the TV I watch and the games I play. No one is asking for every game to have a little something something just for gay people–that would be unworkable and absurd. But games like Fable and Mass Effect and such, which are mature and intelligent and which can incorporate gay content naturally, are made that much more enjoyable for gamers like me.

    By the way, when you played through the Metroid games and found out that Samus was female, did you throw down the controller and complain that "now women are getting into everything–damn feminists!"?

  63. 0
    Derovius says:

     There are always people on the fringes of the right and the left within said community who will decry it as a "training simulation for hate crimes".

  64. 0
    Geoff says:

    Actually, I find your scenario to be rather unrealistic.  They might get a few angsty homosexuals angry, but overall I think a lot of gays would find it as a great commentary for what some of they actually have to deal with. 

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  65. 0
    Derovius says:

     This arguement is a little one sided. On one hand you want the freedom to steer the character to whatever leaning you want, but how quickly would your community be up in arms if there was as equal a freedom for the computer to like/dislike your choices? I.e. If you make a roleplaying character into a homosexual, you randomly encounter anti-homosexual mobs that try and attack you. Or on the other hand, anti-heterosexual mobs should you choose that path.

     There would be rioting in the (gay) streets.

  66. 0
    ddtoronto says:

    As a gay gamer, I appreciate the fantasy element of game playing as much as the next guy, and prefer to be able to make appropriate choices about my character’s sexuality and how it’s enacted in the story. Making a character gay just so you can say there’s a gay character in the game is pretty much useless. I’ve greatly enjoyed the Fable series and Mass Effect for making same-sex relationships possible and viable without making them mandatory or presenting a distorted or homophobic view of them. Bully was another good example of this–the kissing option was there, but it was not a requirement to fulfill a quest or gain some points. I expect that representation of gays, lesbians, transsexuals, etc. will continue to mature. Besides, it’s only recently that we’ve started seeing any kind of racial diversity among major game characters–there’s still quite a ways to go on that front.

  67. 0
    Nagaina says:

    I tend to agree with the viewpoint that one of the main reasons that publishers avoid including LGBT characters and storylines in games is due to the massive backlash factor. Nothing makes basically conservative, risk-averse business types in the corner office twitch harder than the idea that a product they’ve sunk money and manpower into producing might tank as a result of factors outside their control — factors including massive queer-fear being trumpeted all over the media. I do, however, also agree that, in order ameliorate the ability of bashers to generate that backlash in the first place, publishers need to sack up and just flat out say, "Look, these characters are gay and that is not a bad thing." The fundamental ideas and attitudes about a topic ingrained in the dominant culture only change if the producers of that culture — and that includes game developers and publishers — are willing to help change them. As EZK said, video games will only begin maturing as an artform when they begin acknowledging and acting upon their ability to change the cultural conversation in this regard.

    Does this mean that I think every game that’s published should address homosexuality as a social issue? Of course not. That’s ridiculous and, for the record, I don’t think that’s what Brad Hilderbrand is saying, either. Similarly, I think that saying ‘why should video games address sexuality at all’ is a little disingenuous. How many games have not only romantic plots among the main characters but among the supporting cast and background NPCs? Seriously, think about it. Romance permeates whole classes of games (RPGs, I’m lookin’ at you) and, by logical extension, the inherent sexuality of the characters involved in those ubiquitous romance plots and subplots is being commented on — and those comments are, except in very rare cases, pretty much universally heterosexual. I don’t think anybody is actually asking for gays to be more ‘visible’ in the every third character being a flaming queen or a diesel dyke sense, so much as a it’d be nice if one of those epic, sweeping, love that can change the world for the better romance plots would revolve around some LGBT characters for a change sense. And I, for one, would love like burning to see more intensely badass gay characters for whom their intense badassness and their gayness are both fundamental to the character, as depicted in their relationships with other characters, and absolutely nobody thinks that this is at all weird or unusual.

    Normativity, baby, it’s the name of the game.

  68. 0
    Doomsong says:

    Word.

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  69. 0
    Doomsong says:

    See this is exactly what I’m getting at. When writers start making characters blatantly gay, the people who bitched about the lack of gay characters will start bitching about stereotypes. Thats why, we should just keep the subtle gayness alive… Like in Gears of War.

    (You just know that Cliffy B. is gonna see these posts and hold a press conference about Gears of War 2 not being gay… or broken!!)

     

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  70. 0
    Geoff says:

    Yeah and I’m still confused about this assumption that a character like Marcus can’t be gay, as if they all have to be pansy, pastel-wearing pussies.  (Say that three-times fast).  The Romans conquered a large section of Europe and the Middle East and they were hardly prudish when it came to homosexual behavior.  Seems like this guy wants more stereotypes in the games, which is neither a good thing nor a solution to the problem he’s presenting.

    Hehehe, I dig the toggle option.  One free interwebz for you.  Bring your ticket to the front desk and claim your prize.

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  71. 0
    Derovius says:

     Did I missing something? Unless there is some sort of sexual theme to the story, why do we care who or what the protagonist has sex with? I could care less what people do in the privacy of their own homes, but forcing everyone to sit through their lifestyle is no different than someone telling them its wrong.

     Maybe have a toggle in the games options: Gayness [] on [x] off (default).

  72. 0
    Geoff says:

    The guy never played Army of Two apparently…

    But honestly, would it matter?  If Marcus was gay (and he might have a thing or two for Dom) should he be acting any differently?  I don’t get it.  Unless there is a romantic sub-plot within the story when is the character’s sexuality even an issue?

    It seems like the guy is complaining that not enough game characters act as obviously gay.  Who says a gay man can’t be a foul-mouthed, violence-loving, mean-spirited bastard like Marcus Fenix?  Should his armor be pink so we know for certain?  Maybe a lisp?  It seems the author wants more characters to be obviously homosexual in ways that many would view as stereotypical.

    In a heavy story-driven game I can see where he’s getting at.  There usually aren’t many homosexuals.  But for the most part games are about gameplay, how fun it is to play.  Would it make sense to complain that there aren’t any (apparently) gay characters in Team Fortress 2?  No.  Why?  Because it’s all about the frags, not whether or not any of the characters are fags!  (We’re allowed to use that word now, right?)

    Bah…bah I say.

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  73. 0
    Ambiguous says:

    The game itself isn’t all that bad, pretty standard rpg fare.  Nothing that will blow your mind but its good to waste 20+ hours on.  As for the voices, I’m pretty sure theres an option to turn off the ever-horrible english voice actors, and switch to the original japanese audio. Can’t any games actually do this right?  I mean come on, how f**king hard is it to get someone who can read lines with more realism and emotion than an 8 year old reading aloud from his history book for class?

    Anyway, if you switch to the japanese voices its much more tolerable, particularly if you’re already used to the japanese version of the stereotypical gay guy from watching various anime, as its actually a fairly common character archetype (not to be confused with "trap").  Besides, he doesn’t talk gay for most of the game anyway, only in the beginning and end.

  74. 0
    zel says:

    Ya I played maybe 8 hours worth over the course of a week and gave up. I only managed to play that long because I muted the game whenever the gay character talked, the voice over was so horrible and forcibly ‘gay’ it was annoying. It’s no wonder the local gamestop had like 20 used copies of the game. I picked it up for like, 15 bucks cause it was the first RPG on the 360 I could find. Avoid this game O.o

    ————————————

    I am a signature virus, please copy and paste me into your signature to help me propagate.

  75. 0
    Doomsong says:

    Not for more than say 2 hours….

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  76. 0
    Werrick says:

    I love Neil Patrick Harris, firstly because I’m a huge fan of, literally, EVERYTHING he’s done, but also because he proves that it’s possible to be gay and not act like a mincing, lisping, affectacious idiot.

    When they can create a game character that doesn’t wear their orientation like a banner, waving it in everyone’s face, then you’ll likely see more gay characters.

    However, the reality is that even if there were openly gay characters in games who acted like normal human beings instead of the raving queens that are so often portrayed as the norm, no doubt there’d be SOMEBODY complaining that they weren’t gay ENOUGH

  77. 0
    Shadow D. Darkman says:

    "Games COULD use more Yuri."

    Quoted for fucking TRUTH, biatch!.

    ——————————————————————————

    "Game on, brothers and sisters." -Leet Gamer Jargon

  78. 0
    Monte says:

    Did you actually read those articles?

    The first article does not mention gay kissing in Bully at all… If we recall, teachers at the time had concerns about the "bully" concept behind the game

    the seocnd article mentions the gay kissing but doesn’t really make it the center of a major controversy… in mentions the NIMF protest against the game but does not asy the protest concerns the gay kissing; again, as before the vilence of the game and the fact the game takes place in a school was a major concern

    The last one is the only article that tries to call the gay kissing a new major controversy… but all it does is say its a major controversy but has nothing to back that up… no watchdog groups going up in arms, no mass objections coming from chruch officals, no outrage coming from the conservative pundits… nothing…

    none of those articles really support your argument… essentially their wasn’t much uproar about the kissing in Bully other than the noise coming from Jack

  79. 0
    BrandonL337 says:

    I will never get that fucking image out of my head, I am scarred for life, thanks a lot asshole.

    There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can’t do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

  80. 0
    BrandonL337 says:

    What are you talking about, seriously.

    There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can’t do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

  81. 0
    BrandonL337 says:

    huh, i looked at the guys post there was nothing to suggest he was on first name terms with Ann Psyco bitch Coulter, nor that he even had any fondness for her

    There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can’t do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

  82. 0
    Shadow D. Darkman says:

    FAUX Noise doesn’t count, EZK, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they did have a story like that.

    And BTW, deoVIRUS, thought I’d remind you that EZK is a moderator. Even if Dennis doesn’t listen to my testimony against you, he’ll at least consider it if he hears it from EZK.

    Now the game is fair.

    —————————————

    "Game on, brothers and sisters." -Leet Gamer Jargon

  83. 0
    E. Zachary Knight says:

    Those are gaming news sites. I asked for Mainstream news as that is who you said were making a big fuss about it. So when you can give me links to Fox News, CNN, BBC or some equivelent news sources, I will conceed.

    But now that those links are posted, I do remember GP reporting on that Canadian Teachers group.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
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    E. Zachary Knight
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    My Patreon

  84. 0
    Geoff says:

    Ok.

    Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because…(and on and on)

    Mmmm, tasty.

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  85. 0
    E. Zachary Knight says:

    That is exactly my point. Derovius accused all conservative Christians of taking an Anti-gay stance in the case of Bully, but has nothing to back that up.

    I initially wanted to make it clear that JT was the only one in any kind of spotlight making that connection and trying to run with it.

    And yes Derovius is more narrow-minded than he accuses religious people of being.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  86. 0
    Geoff says:

    Broad generalizations are excuses used by bigots to rationalize said bigotry.

    There are plenty of sects of Christianity in America that are rather anti-gay.  Fred Phelps comes to mind, and JT does run in a similar vein.  You’ve displayed a good amount of intelligence on this forum EZK so I know that you know this.

    However, Christian =/= anti-gay.  Likewise being a homophobe isn’t something exclusive to religion either.  Funny thing about hardcore athiests, they tend to be just as narrow-minded and ignorant as the religious fundies they criticize.

    But that’s a totally different topic.  This part of the thread was about the Bully gay-kiss controversy, of which there was very little of.

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  87. 0
    E. Zachary Knight says:

    So you are accusing me of being closed minded when I ask you to explain yourself? I can’t believe that you are completley blinded to your own close mindedness. You cannot even keep religion out a discussion that doesn’t invole it. And I am the close minded Bible thumper?

    I asked for you to point me at main stream news stories about the Bully "gay sex" controversy.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  88. 0
    E. Zachary Knight says:

    The whole "Gay Sex" thing Jack screamed about in Bully was never covereed by any major news outlet. So I don’t understand where you are coming from. Point me at major news stories about Gay sex or any other homosexual related Bully story. Please enlighten me.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  89. 0
    Derovius says:

     Oh, but I did get it right. JT is one man, but his only major coverage is here on GP. I’m referring to your assbackwards news agencies like Fox and CNN pushing the christian agenda around. I’m sure someone like you is on a first name basis with Cloutier.

  90. 0
    Derovius says:

     What debate? The fundamentalist right (re: religious people) screamed bloody murder, the rest of us laughed, and the Earth continued to spin as it had the day before.

  91. 0
    T5 says:

    *points to name of the website*  GP is at its best when it is reporting on legislation or politicians that interfere with videogames. I dream of a world where one day a site like this will not be necessary. 

  92. 0
    BrandonL337 says:

    Election games? or am I missing something?

    There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can’t do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

  93. 0
    questionmark1987 says:

    The relationships in general aren’t any different, sex is different but that’s really it.

    As for the relation aspect, people don’t have to have exact copies of themselves to relate to in games. While a story like this might be hard to relate to for a male gamer, it would possibly be easier for a female gamer, and definitley easier for a gay gamer (which there IS a large subsection of). Developers have thus far been afraid to attempt targetting that market, because it’s believed to be so small that it couldn’t sustain a game. I would like to see one game take making the main character homosexual seriously and see if it pans out, but most liekly that will happen when I run my own company lol.

  94. 0
    Hitodama says:

    That would be a showing of thier sex life, I’d say.

    Coming from a personal point of view, I could not very well conceive of a homosexual relationship in a grand romantic fashion. This may stem from my heterosexuality, perhaps. Also, one tends to relate themselves with thier character, and being a heterosexual playing a homosexual character would feel…. Awkward.

  95. 0
    questionmark1987 says:

    Would it really be all that hard for people if the main character was gay and the main love interest was fo the same sex. Take any FF love story and change one of the character’s genders, you don’t have to change personality at all.

    Why people assume the only way to know someone is gay is if they say it is absurd. How about the relationship they get into or the internal struggles they have with it. Coming out to friends and loved ones could provide a very emotional story arc for a character as well.

  96. 0
    Austin_Lewis says:

    No one can.  Freddie Mercury was an amazing singer.  That’s probably why the last two singers that have ‘replaced’ (as in tried to stand in, not as in done a good job) were Joe Cocker and Paul Rodgers.  Joe Cocker, some of you may know him from the show ‘The Wonder Years’; he sang the intro song ‘with a little help from my friends’.  Paul Rodgers, he just can’t compare either. Probably why they are now going by ‘Queen + Paul Rodgers’ and not Queen.  Honestly, I can’t bear to watch or listen to Paul Rodgers sing Freddie Mercury’s songs.  

    I’d rather not see it on Rockband, mainly because I don’t want to see MTV touch Queen’s music ever.  MTV killed good music.  Now I turn on the radio and here shit by the ‘ting tings’ (seriously, when the fuck did that become music?) and other bands that sound like shitty versions of what I heard in the 90’s.  MTV killed music; if its good, you won’t find it there. 

  97. 0
    jkdjr25 says:

    I’d like to see that or a expansion for Rock Band that does the same thing. Though the poor person on the mic will have a devil of a time hitting the notes the way Freddie did.

  98. 0
    Doomsong says:

    damn…

    I’m gonna go listen to QUEEN now

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  99. 0
    Austin_Lewis says:

    I just want to see Guitar Hero: QUEEN.  The person doing vocals plays as Freddie, guitar plays as Brian May, Bassist plays  as John Deacon, and drums plays as Roger Taylor.

    Although I’d probably play a game with Freddie in it.

  100. 0
    BrandonL337 says:

    You people crack me up, all of y’all I love you, except Derovius, that guys an asshole

    There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can’t do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

  101. 0
    Doomsong says:

    LOL… well, someone had to do it.. may as well be you eh?

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  102. 0
    Geoff says:

    I don’t know about that.  Baird is always pissed off, like he’s got something shoved up his ass all the time.

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  103. 0
    Doomsong says:

    You just know that Baird is the dom in that relationship (no pun intended)

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  104. 0
    Geoff says:

    Yeah, notice how throughout a large portion of the game Marcus is followed by that cute blonde and yet never attempts to mach it with her?

    And Baird would never touch Marcus.  It’d make the Cole-train jealous.  (So many jokes could be made out of that…have at it boys.)

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  105. 0
    Doomsong says:

    I think the most appropriate Simpsons quote for this thread is:

    "DID HE GIVE YOU GAY!?!?!?"

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  106. 0
    Geoff says:

    I fail to see where I was being ironic, but if you say so…

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  107. 0
    Geoff says:

    Something like that, yeah.  Back during the golden age of Simpson’s writing.

    "Alcohol the cause of, and solution to, all of life’s problems."

    "But beware, for the Monkey’s hand is cursed."

    "That’s bad."

    "But it comes with a free frogurt!"

    "That’s good."

    "The frogurt is also cursed."

    "That’s bad."

    "But you get your choice of topping!"

    "That’s good."

    "The toppings contain potassium benzoayte" (Too lazy to look up proper spelling.)

    *blank stare* "…That’s bad."

    "Can I go home now?"

    Weeeeeee, thread-jacking w/ Simpson’s quotes!

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  108. 0
    Geoff says:

    If I remember correctly, they had an episode before that with the gay toy store owner.  Homer was afraid Bart was turning gay and so tried to "man him up" by taking him to traditionally "manly" places like the steel mill, only these places were filled with homosexuals.

    "We work hard, we play hard."  *cue house music*

    I’ve always thought Lara Croft was a lesbian…with Mai from King of Fighters…well, fantasize really…

    …Ok, if anyone needs me I’ll be in my bunk.  You may want to knock first.

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  109. 0
    E. Zachary Knight says:

    Speaking of the Simpsons, didn’t it take the Simpsons almost twenty years to really take homosexuality head on? Sure they had the enuendo of Smithers and Martin among others, but it wasn’t until the gay marriage episode that they actually made it a central focus.

    If it took the Simpsons that long, why are we complaining about games not doing it now?

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  110. 0
    Bennett Beeny says:

    I don’t think they need to make reference to it a lot.  They just need to implement a motion capture so that characters have the option of mincing around.

  111. 0
    Doomsong says:

    Just play Enchanted Arms and you’ll have your answer…

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  112. 0
    DarkSaber says:

    I don’t see him suggesting any ways they could be worked into games without making it look painfully forced though. Short of making reference to it a LOT how would you even know the characters gay?

    ————————————————–

    I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

  113. 0
    sortableturnip says:

    Developers tend to stay away from those kinds of controversy because of the backlash it seems to bring…look at the whole Bully "boy kissing another boy" debate. 

  114. 0
    E. Zachary Knight says:

    True. Developers should make the games they want to make. No one should tell them waht to make. But, that does not mean that people can’t be critical of the walking on egg shells attitudes of most developers.

    Games could be one of the best tools available for commentary, but they often aren’t. Right now it is relegated to Flash and poorly built PC games.

    I am all for advancing gaming as an artform, but really you have to be into it from the start and not worried about making tons of money to actually do it.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
    Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  115. 0
    Doomsong says:

    Because it was a slow news day?

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  116. 0
    JB says:

    I’m having issues with this statement and maybe someone can clarify it a bit better: "While games have the potential to stand at the bleeding edge of social and political commentary, they prefer to play it safe and put sales above message, lagging far behind their contemporaries in television and cinema… "

     

    Who says games have to "stand at the bleeding edge of social and political commentary"? Games are designed by the developers to be how they (the developers) want it to be. Telling a developer to do otherwise is like telling an artist how to paint.

  117. 0
    NovaBlack says:

    One main reason its never explored is because for some reason games get bashed to high heaven if they do (whilst its ok for movies and books to explore) and i guess for some developers it isnt worth  having to deal with all the fallout.

    Just look at the mass effect sex stuff, or how even mentioning the word ‘prostitute’ in gta means the press (and JT) make up all kinds of nonsense (‘full explicit anal and oral sex’ aparrently)

    As soon as you even mention homosexuality, you get all the right wing nutjobs causing a fuss.

    Mass effect had the most incredibly tiny POSSIBLE suggestion of homosexuality activity (in the ‘sex’ scene) and it had people going crazy.

     

    personally, i have absolutely no problem wether someone is homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, baloonAnimaloSexual whatever. And i have no objection to it being in any media (books films or games).

    But until developers / publishers start standing up for themselves when the misinformation propaganda squad start spewing (as they always do with any contraversial release) then it isnt going to become acceptable to the mainstream population.

    devs/publishers typically just sit back and let the misinformation spread. Leaving bloggers liek us to try and stop it, without any help from them.

    Games arent going to be seen on an equal footing as books and movies for artistic expression UNLESS developers/publishers actually get off their asses from counting money, and HELP stand up against this kind of thing when it happens.

     

  118. 0
    Doomsong says:

    True bout Gears… but it really wouldn’t be any worse than the dialog that’s actually in the game.

    And yes, Marcus is totaly gay for Dom (and he might have a thing with Baird on the side)

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  119. 0
    Aliasalpha says:

    Are these people seriously suggesting that Marcus isn’t totally gay for Dom? Did they not pay attention when playing these games??

    But yes, sexuality in a game like gears would only be forcibly rammed in (make up your own gay joke there) and be more like a public service ad break than a part of the story. Sure if at the start of gears 2 dom was looking for his boyfriend then that’d be fine (apart from the emotional trauma it’d cause poor lovesick Marcus). However when you’re halfway through a mission, Marcus yells at Baird to assault a locust position and Baird stands up, hands on his hips and said in an indignant, yet lispy, way "Why, because I’m GAY?" and then proceeds to run like a girl at the locust screaming "Ooh hello sailor!", that would be a teeny bit disruptive.

    In games where romantic relationships would belong in the story and type of game it is then sure, go for the gay if you swing that way but otherwise all it would be is cheap sensationalism or pandering to a special interest group. If it’s not an enhancement to the story then it’s got no place there.

    I seem to recall that Jade Empire handled a gay relationship for both genders pretty solidly.

  120. 0
    GTCv Deimos says:

    I dunno, the funny thing is that I think the one show that has done a GREAT job of including homosexual characters, without making a fuss over it was… Battlestar Galactica… Every once in a while, they just do that thing where "hey… Gaeta just kissed a doe eyed man…OOooOOhhh…"

  121. 0
    Doomsong says:

    You had me at Freddie Mercury!

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  122. 0
    King of Fiji says:

    Someone should make a game where you play as Freddie Mercury and you have to save the moustaches of the world from the evil shaving cream corporations of the world.

    That would be an awsome game to play.

  123. 0
    Doomsong says:

    Indeed, hell homosexual characters wouldn’t stop someone from playing a game if it was good.

    Maybe they should do like Metroid did in the 80’s… you get all the way through a kick ass action game, then at the end your character has a full blown make out sequence with his buddy. This seemed to help women get past their stereotype in games (the suprise factor; I don’t recall Samus making out with anyone at the end of Metroid… but I’d pay good money to see it!!).

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  124. 0
    GTCv Deimos says:

    @Doomsong: or better yet… why make a big deal about homosexuality in games…? The moment you stop treating it like it’s some ubersensitive subject you’ve gotta handle with kid gloves, the whole thing stops being a big taboo.

  125. 0
    Doomsong says:

    Or maybe, just maybe, gay characters in games are not written as flamboiant stereotypes and instead go on to suggest that homosexuals are no different from anyone else… but I guess having them act like a normal human instead of a billboard isn’t enough for the "Pay attention to me!!" brigade.

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  126. 0
    olstar18 says:

    I know to many of these gay activists forget the fact that 1 there are more straight people out there than gay and 2 the only way to tell if someone is gay is for them to say so and most games do not have anyone mentioning their sex life.

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