T2 Whines About Used Games – a Day After Industry Touts Record Sales

Can someone explain this to me?

Wasn’t it just yesterday that video game industry trade group the Entertainment Software Association issued a press release high-fiving itself over record sales of game software in 2008?

Why then, today, do we learn that GTA publisher Take-Two Interactive is griping about used game sales?

Here’s what the ESA said yesterday about its record-breaking year:

Overall computer and video game industry hardware, software and peripheral sales climbed to $22 billion in 2008, with entertainment software sales comprising $11.7 billion of that total figure—a 22.9% jump over the previous year— the Entertainment Software Association (ESA) announced today… on the strength of a December sales month in which industry revenue ($5.3 billion) topped $5 billion for the first time in any single month. By comparison, as recently as 1997, the industry generated $5.1 billion over the entire year…

And here’s T2 CEO Ben Feder (left) whining (via Cowen analyst Doug Creutz) today:

"GameStop continues to aggressively push their used game business, which is having a meaningful negative impact on sales of new games," noted analyst Doug Creutz, following a meeting with Take-Two CEO Ben Feder this week.

"Management is frustrated with this trend and is examining ways to ameliorate the problem, which includes strategies around online play and downloadable content which extend the lifespan of AAA titles."

GP: We have to ask: how "meaningful" can the supposed "negative impact" of used game sales be with game publishers having just completed their best year ever?

Or, is this another case of a greedy media corporation trying to squeeze every last nickel out of its customers?

UPDATE: I should make it clear that "whining" is my characterization of Ben Feder’s position. Doug Creutz merely reports on Feder’s concerns in an investor’s note detailing his Tuesday meeting with the T2 CEO.

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162 comments

  1. Michael Chandra says:

    Throwing in a counter-comparison: Being a murderer is no different from being a cop who has to kill someone in self-defense. Either way you end someone’s life.

  2. Michael Chandra says:

    Already commented this elsewhere in the thread, but in the long run second-hand games in fact DO decrease in value. Not just because of quality (reliability, support, amount of players to multiplay with) going down, but also because of standards going up. Better graphical engines and video cards, better sound, etc.

  3. nighstalker160 says:

    He’s specifically whining about GameStop’s used game policy as frustrating management. Frustrating management from what exactly? Having to settle for the mid-class Mercedes? Oh boo hoo to you.

    When you take this statement in light of other statements from Take Two and the industry in general, statements that suggest that they view used game sales as just this shy of illegal, you get a picture of a whining corporate exec who wants to add an extra 0 to his paycheck.

    When you take previous statements as well as this statement and place them in the context of the way these companies  have pushed things like DRM, draconian copy-measures, and the overall restriction on the private right of ownership, you get a very different picture than your "captain of industy."

     

  4. Chuma says:

    Given that most stores give credit for 2nd hand games which go towards buying new games, the developers do indeed make money on the back of the used games market.  I notice that this neatly forgotten about because of greed.  I have no sympathy for T2.

  5. Chuma says:

    But the stores that sell the games do so you know, it is still creating jobs.  Frankly I found the first time you were beating this drum stupid but now you’ve made your point so concise it is easy to just be flippant.  Piracy is another word for Theft.  2nd hand sales are an exchange of ownership.  The two are not even closely linked.  That the developer makes no extra cash?  NOT MY PROBLEM.

  6. Andrew Eisen says:

    It’s actually $22 billion but I don’t think those figures are available without buying the full report from the NPD.  I do know that Gamestop expects to sell $2 billion in used games during the ’08 – ’09 fiscal year.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  7. Freyar says:

    I wish they could do me a favor and make sure the games were worth the $60 price tag they ask for. One of the main reasons people prefer grabbing used titles is that the work put into them is not viewed as a good $60 (new) investment, and would rather get it second-hand and save enough for a meal while they play their new game.

    I buy used titles all the time. In fact, I bough Resistance, and Resistance 2 used two nights ago. I didn’t like the idea of just buying them new because I wasn’t sure I’d come out with a $120 worth of enjoyment out of it. (After writing $120, I realize that is quite expensive these days.) Good games, and good companies will even go so far as to get my money early. Unfortunately, Take2 really has lost me with GTA IV’s wonderful PC debacles.

    Get your PC work up to spec, guys. A number of console games ARE PC users too, and when you screw over PC users, you’re screwing over your console buyers as well.

    —- There is a limit for both politicians against video games, and video games against politicians. http://www.goteamretard.com

  8. unholyblackdeath says:

     Part of the whole appeal of buying a physical boxed game instead of a digital download is the prospect of recouping some of the investment later on when you are done with the game.  If you do not want people to resell your games, then just sell everything via download services like Steam.  You cannot reasonably expect consumers and used game retailers not to "agressively" pursure the used market when a physical product is involved.  

     

    I did read the article and did not hear any whining.  To the man’s credit, he was being positive.  

    The issue is simple:  Sell a physical product and have a thriving second hand market or sell a purely digital format and not have to worry about it.  Those are the options.  As long as you sell a physical product, this will be an issue, so why bother even bringing up what goes without saying?  Even if you make better games, people are gonna resell them when the next shiney new game comes out.  Its just reality.

     

    I buy all my music and books used unless its something I’ve really been looking forward to.  As for games, I pretty much only play MMO’s on the PC so used games are not an issue for me.  These people’s crap ass games do not get my money anyway.  Console gaming is for twitchy ADHD kids. 

  9. Wolvenmoon says:

    That ‘update’ is unneeded, ‘whining’ is an understatement. "Bitching" would be my description. Just wait until federal laws banning modchips are overturned. He might have to go without that fifth luxury jet and settle with another limosine.

  10. starsrift says:

     I think this is the first time I’ve seen GP jump into something without considering all the facts.

    I’d like to see a better breakdown of the numbers. How much of this 5.1 billion was in used games? Or XBOX Live or WoW payments?

     

  11. Zero Beat says:

    See, they wanted a gold-plated building, but they had to settle for silver.

     

    "That’s not ironic. That’s justice."

  12. Conejo says:

    a thriving second-hand business is indicitive of an adequate/good product being sold for too much money first-hand.

    there are plenty of games that just aren’t worth the new price but buyable at reduced cost.

    Here are we — and yonder yawns the universe.

  13. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Game retail prices are general dictated by the console manufacturer. The ygive some leway to the publisher but for the most part, the maximum price is set. PC is mostly dictated by comparison to their console counterparts.

    Sony and Microsoft felt because they have such expensive tech, the price of games needed to go up to compensate. Thus the $60 price tag.

    Nintendo felt that in order to retain the mass market friendly price, they stuck with $50.

    PC had no real change besides the general incremental changes of hardware and kept the $50 price tag.

    Now if Microsoft and Sony both decided that their consoles were profitable enough to handle a lower price in games, retailers will oblige. The same would happen if Nintendo decided to lower their price.

    No retailer I have ever been to has raised a price above MSRP and kept it that way for long. They are usually pressured to lower it below MSRP in order to stay competitive with those who are already at that level.

    So I think you are over estimating whatis needed to lower the overall price of games.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  14. CyberSkull says:

    Whine, whine, whine. Look, your making money hand over fist with GTA IV & BioShock. You don’t have a right to the resell market, so shut the hell up!

  15. ZippyDSMlee says:

    CDs are antaquited and badly priced,they have caused their own downfall trying to control every aspect of the market, as they expand into online distrobution and what not they will improve over time.

     


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  16. hayabusa75 says:

    Are you serious?  Aside from the things everyone else has mentioned, buying a used game by its very nature shows that the game was purchased before.  The developer made money off that sale.  They shouldn’t make money off the used game transaction.  It’s nothing like piracy.

    Welcome back, by the way.  Nice to see your posts are just as balanced and well-thought out as before.

    "There is no sin except stupidity." – Oscar Wilde

  17. beemoh says:

     

    >Oh I understand this but this assumes that the publisher drops the price. Walmart is a hugh force correct but they can’t really force the publishers to change their price that much. Remember they need to make money back on the development and then a nice profit on top of that. Which by all accounts they seems to be doing.

    I’m using Walmart as an example not of a games retailer, but of a retailer of anything. Take any brand name food item in Walmart and compare it to the price at some local store. Walmart’s is most likely the cheaper product as it has been able to abuse an economy of scale to gain market share.

    However: Walmart has less shelf space to play with than the specialist retailers. If some distributor offers Walmart this game for cheaper than that game, they’re more than likely going to take it- and it’s going to be easier for a company to make their profit by selling games cheaper at wholesale, so long as they are able to sell more of them- this is how Walmart negotiates low prices, and what will happen given higher games sales.

    >BTW you also assume each part of the chain passes the saving on to the next part. This doesn’t happen unless it needs to happen.
     

    Which they will, because it does. GameStop sell second hand cheaper because it is cheaper ‘wholesale’, and they can undercut Walmart. If Walmart felt it could lower the cost of new games to less than that of GS’ second hand and make the loss back on footfall, they would- Tesco frequently does that in the UK, often selling big, new releases- and even hardware- at half the cost the specialist retailers are offering.

    > do know if there isn’t a used game market ok yes GameStop may not exist or not as big but I doubt the games will drop in price. 

    They will, so as to gain marketshare. If, for the sake of argument, GameStop isn’t forced to start selling totally new stock, and just shuts down, the reduced retail outlets for games will push competition up and wholesale (and thus retail) prices down as all the titles fight for limited shelf space.

    Bear in mind that profit margins on games are very low for retail. If GS were no longer using second hand as a safety net, they would very quickly start using their increased sales (due to canniballised sales converting to new, as well as the expanded product line they’d need to fill the store with) as a way of negotiating a lower wholesale price. Done right, this can both increase GS margins and lower retail prices at the same time.

    >Frankly since Walmart has no used game market that they run (That I know of) why aren’t the prices lower?

    They’re still cheaper than the competition, or at least the competition Walmart customers (less dedicated gamers, less likely to go to a specialist store, if they know such a thing exists) are aware of. Lower specialist prices, even just by $1, will push Walmart prices down.

    It seems, however, that most people seem to want game prices to drop 50% overnight- and that’s simply not going to happen. But it will creep down.

    >actually started looking at how to make better games people would buy instead of rent and well thats have worked for them.

    Which is exactly what Take Two are doing.

    /b

     

  18. Craig R. says:

    You know, at least the RIAA had some level of legitimacy with their gripes over downloads (and I’m sure the used market as well) with the fact that their sales figures were dropping.

    The video game industry has no excuse for this kind of stupidity at all.

  19. Awol says:

    Wal-Mart has become such a dominant force in US retail by using an economy of scales (that is, stuff being cheaper to buy in bulk) to offer lower prices than the competition. This is the first principle any basic business course will teach you, and can be expanded infinitely down the chain.

    If GameStop can sell a game for just $1 less than the indie retailer across the street, they will, to get you to come into their shop and buy it there instead. If Some Random Distribution Company can sell games wholesale to GameStop for just $1 less/unit than the next distributor along, they will, so that GameStop will get their games from this distributor instead. If a publisher can sell distribution rights for their game to some distributor for $1 less than the next publisher along, they will, so that distributor distributes their games instead of somebody else’s and so on.

    The catch is that they have to be able to do it. GameStop have to sell games at a higher price than they buy them from the distributor. The distributor has to sell units at a higher total price than they paid for the distribution rights. However, if the retailer isn’t buying so many games from the distributor, say, because they know they only need about ten copies because six of them will come back second-hand, then the distributor has to keep his prices high.

    This is the most basic of basic economics. If you can’t grasp that, then you really shouldn’t be in this discussion.

    Oh I understand this but this assumes that the publisher drops the price. Walmart is a hugh force correct but they can’t really force the publishers to change their price that much. Remember they need to make money back on the development and then a nice profit on top of that. Which by all accounts they seems to be doing.

    BTW you also assume each part of the chain passes the saving on to the next part. This doesn’t happen unless it needs to happen.

    No need to insult people, you have no idea who I am and what I know. I do know if there isn’t a used game market ok yes GameStop may not exist or not as big but I doubt the games will drop in price. I’ve been gaming for decades and frankly most AAA games have always been $50+ this has not changed in the decades. Even with Walmart being in the mix the game prices have stayed the same or increased. Even before the used market came about the prices did nothing. Frankly since Walmart has no used game market that they run (That I know of) why aren’t the prices lower? I mean Walmart is a driving force in prices in many areas but yet still games are the same price even at Walmart. Just the fact that GameStop buys fewer new copies than before and the price has stayed the same tells me this isn’t the economic force working or it tells me the force is indeed working correctly.

    Frankly the point is mote as there will always be a used market what will happen is the publisher/developers will make some changes see that except for a few title nothing will change and people will still be buying used games.

    But: to use Nintendo again, Nintendo had "enough money for them to live on", and they still decided it wasn’t enough and started to aim at a new, untapped market, with massive success. That is all Take Two are doing.

    Yes instead of Nintendo complaining about the used game market they found a niche that wasn’t being covered and exploited it. I know Nintendo used to be big about renting games in the 80s they gave up that losing battle and actually started looking at how to make better games people would buy instead of rent and well thats have worked for them. Innovation makes money not killing the used game market. Makes me wonder how much money the publishers are spending to prevent the second-hand market on their games and how it could be put to better use.

  20. JC says:

    That’s actually a "yes" & "no"

    Some are simply b/c people rush to beat games repeatedly with the perception that they get the old "$40" entry price from last gen by buying the game at $60, then beat it quickly and then sell it back for $20, then move on. Since game stores don’t always keep ordering new stock, they can simply put up used games for sale and some people will just buy it since they can’t find the title new everywhere, or because it is simply cheaper. Also, sometimes gamestop will mark up used higher than the new price when new copies aren’t available, and the consumer has the choice of either caving in or shopping elsewhere.

  21. ZippyDSMlee says:

    It wont work because the game industry is limited in market share and will always be limited in market share because of the console war model.

    Look at Blu ray prices range from 17-35$ a video  why such a huge range in prices? Because they have the market power to push the hardware out and sell videos at a perceived loss, they have 1 hardware standard they can focus the retail industry on world wide, if you split that industry into 3 or 4 pieces prices would double if not tipple because they all want a part of the profit pie and not lose any perceived profit.

    Edit:Edited for zippy speak.


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  22. beemoh says:

    Atlus and NIS aren’t the entire games industry.

    To be fair, they are good examples of the sort of thing the games industry should be doing- making a product within the market’s means, and pricing it competitively.

    The catch is they are both very much niche publishers- their titles don’t really represent a very attractive prospect to second-hand retailers. Most of the few people who are going to buy Atlus or NIS games will have bought it in the first week, whereas something more mainstream (like Take Two’s output) which might have a slightly longer shelf life gets its less dedicated sales cannibalised.

    /b

  23. beemoh says:

     That was a hypothetical worst case scenario, used by Epic’s CliffyB as an example of where the industry shouldn’t be going, as usual lost underneath the hysterical "EVIL GAMES INDSUTRY TAKING AWAY OUR SECOND HAND" coverage such comments tend to get.

    /b

  24. beemoh says:

    Whining is going "Here is something I percieve is a problem, somebody fix it for meeeeeeee!".

    Identifying is "Here is something I percieve a problem, I will atempt to fix it"

    The latter is what Take Two are doing.

    /b

  25. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Whinning=complaing=Being anoyed with slow sales.

    I am sorry, he is whining I should know when I see it sicne I do it all the time…. 😛


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  26. JC says:

    This is more or less their strategy on discouraging practices like yours. So far, TT2 hasn’t done anything, but the idea of focusing on online, may end up where they don’t allow rented copies to play online, or they make such DLC exclusive to new purchases (probably a bad move). It may also just be that they have DLC available so people will pay for it during the time they rent, who knows? 

    I mostly disagree with such practices in that manner. I support the practices done by Stardock though: you buy new? You get free updates.

    I thought publishers discussed about taking away the endings on game disks and making it DLC for rented or used titles to discourage used sales and such, perhaps the online aspect is a focus for this?

  27. mootyslayer says:

    What about rental places such as Blockbuster or online sites such as Gamefly? Yes the game companies make money when the rental companies buy the games. But most people will rent it and return it. I hardly ever Buy games anymore. I use Gamefly and on occasion I will buy the used games from them.

    But I really can’t afford to pay for every single game that comes out.

  28. Monte says:

     Really now, we can apply this argument to most any consumer product aside from food…

    Selling used toys, books, furniture, clothing and so forth… there’s lots of stuff that’s sold used but could be as good as the day it was bought originally… hell, people sell items that are in mint condition for multiple times the original worth.

    By that reasoning, all of this is considered a form of theft… guess we should go out and arrest anyone who attends a yard sale

  29. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Retail seemed to have no trouble going up in price. That is for sure.

    But then again, retail never seems to have a problem with selling budget games either. I consistantly see games sold at lower price points than the current max on release. Granted they are not AAA games, but they still have a lower price point.

    If a publisher told them the game should be sold at $40 rather than $50, it will happen.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  30. beemoh says:

     >Frankly because of the focus of the industry and the profit that needs to be made they should increase prices by 30-50% the used market will take care of those that can not afford the luxury as it always has.

    Or they could lower prices on the principle that the increased sales would make up the difference- 100,000 sales at $5 profit is $500,000- if a price drop of $1 results in just 25,000 more copies being sold, then the corps still get to make as much money, and a new group of people get to "afford the luxury" of new. If they sell 25,001, then they make more money than before.

    It’s just a matter of getting retail to support it- and why should they when the current second hand system works so well for them?

    /b

  31. Arlen says:

    Bizarrely, neither libraries nor Half Price Books nor Bookins has managed to bring publishing to its knees.  It sounds like game companies would rather complain about something outside of their control than take responsibility for consistently producing excellent products.

  32. TheEggplant says:

    And here it is again. If any of the moneysuits who have complained about used games in the last year really wanted to do something they would quit selling to Gamestop. Then Gamestop would have to survive off of strictly used sales. I doubt they’d go far. Of course the wholesalers probably wouldn’t be down with the idea so it doesn’t seem feasible. It is entirely possible to support used games without supporting Gamestop. Check out "Zero Originality", and just don’t shop there. Amazon, ebay, gogamer, Best Buy, there is never any need to go into a Gamestop.

    And for all the consumers against used game sales, I wonder how many buy indie games direct from the developers website? This is what you do if you really believe in supporting creators and creativity.

     

    ——————————————————————————————————————————— Hookers and Ice Cream aren’t free. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/5137-Stolen-Pixels-12-T

  33. Baruch_S says:

    Tell me about it. I just bought a PS2; I won’t be able to get most of the games I want unless I buy them used. Let’s face it, who has a new copy of Final Fantasy X sitting around? I’m too cheap to buy the games and consoles new.

  34. TJLK says:

    I’m not saying people that claim to be hurt by used game sales don’t make good games.  I’m saying they might need to focus on providing a unforgetable experience.

  35. TJLK says:

    Lets see, I’m going to look through some of my older games to see which ones I held on to.  The Black Bass, Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt, Super Mario 3, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Battletoads, Sonic I & II, Golden Eye, Star Fox 64, Mortal Kombat, Doom, Primal Rage, Mutant League Football … alright thats enough.

    Alright these games are really old but that is exactly my point.  Ontop of that it is important to understand that this small selection of old games of mine aren’t all classics or even considered to be GREAT games.  Sure there are some of them included are legendary but some aren’t.  The reason I hold onto them is because I felt a connection with the game when I played it and I appreciated it so much that I wanted to keep it so one day I could experience it once more. 

    Three main things to understand: 1. Why people buy games. 2. Why people hold onto games. 3. Why people sell games.

    You buy games to have fun, to be entertained.  Simple as that, you want to be engaged in a immersive gameplay experience.

    You keep games that you have formed a special bond with.  Yes this sounds incedibly cheesy and cliche but who honestly didn’t fall in love with Golden Eye.  You could easily point out several newer titles that have the upper hand on just about every aspect of Golden Eye… except for the appreciation you have for it.  Lots of newer games will absolutely blow Golden Eye out of the water by a critic’s stand point but you can’t replace Golden Eye.  Those who played and enjoyed Golden Eye know exactly what I’m talking about. 

    People sell games because they want money to purchase another game.  When this happens I feel that perhaps there wasn’t a great sense of appreciation for the game.  Some games you feel okay not having available but some games you want to hold onto forever.  If I make a game and someone plays it then sells it then it means I failed to make the player emotionally attached to the game.  There are a great deal of things that will cause a player to fall in love with a game but it all revolves around the experience in game.  Sometimes even terrible games make this connection to some.  Ecco was a terrible game according to me.  But it sucked in a way no other game has sucked before.  I kept it just because of how badly it sucked.  While this is a terrible thing to shoot for it just illustrates my point that gamers crave an experience that they will never forget.  If they are selling your game after a few weeks then you’re not providing them with that experience.

  36. beemoh says:

    Point missed.

    He is not complaining, but pointing out that sales "just aren’t necessarily going up as fast".

    He is identifying a reason for this- the same way Nintendo identified that the reason the GameCube got a panning sales wise in comparison to xBox and PS2- and identifying what he can do to solve this problem (change his business model)- the same way Nintendo identified what they could do to solve theirs (aim at a new, untapped market).

    Mr. TakeTwo hasn’t called for legislation banning used sales, a second hand ‘licencing fee’, or an industry-wide boycott of GameStop. He is accepting that used sales are something he, and indeed the rest of the industry, is going to have to work around.

     

    /b

     

  37. chadachada321 says:

    They shouldn’t just make the used market less appealing by making all sorts of gay restrictions and bullcrap, though. They should just make better games at a lower price with more replayability…

     

    -If an apple a day keeps the doctor away….what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-

  38. TJLK says:

    You can whine all day and night about used game sales but really the only thing you can do about it is adjust the way in which you approach production and of course the way in which you execute production.  If you don’t want people to sell something that is their property then you should give them a reason to own your game for a long period of time.  I really see this as weakness.  It is hard not to.  Own up to the flaws of your approach, amend them and continue.  You can’t stop people from selling their property so the solution must lie in the approach and execution.

  39. chadachada321 says:

    Here’s an idea, if the industry didn’t charge $60 for a new game, maybe they’d get more sales. I’m not going to buy a new game unless I’m SURE that I’m going to like it. Hell, even Blockbuster’s rental prices are way too high these days ($9 for a 5-day rental, screw that).

    Of course I’ll buy 2nd-market more often if it’s an old game, and I’m just not buying new games until they lower in price or I truly know I’m going to be playing it for a long time.

     

    Truth is, they’re making shorter-lasting games and charging more for them (Fable 2, etc. While good, they don’t have the same playability as the games listed below), instead of making a truly amazing game that will last forever (Mario Kart 64, even Halo 1, Goldeneye, etc)

     

    -If an apple a day keeps the doctor away….what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-

  40. beemoh says:

    Where did the Take-Two exec say he wanted used sales banning? All I can see is him saying that he is going to change his products to make the used market less appealing.

    /b

  41. beemoh says:

    >How would getting rid of the used game market lower prices on games? Please they wouldn’t even bother touching the price except for increasing it

    Wal-Mart has become such a dominant force in US retail by using an economy of scales (that is, stuff being cheaper to buy in bulk) to offer lower prices than the competition. This is the first principle any basic business course will teach you, and can be expanded infinitely down the chain.

    If GameStop can sell a game for just $1 less than the indie retailer across the street, they will, to get you to come into their shop and buy it there instead. If Some Random Distribution Company can sell games wholesale to GameStop for just $1 less/unit than the next distributor along, they will, so that GameStop will get their games from this distributor instead. If a publisher can sell distribution rights for their game to some distributor for $1 less than the next publisher along, they will, so that distributor distributes their games instead of somebody else’s and so on.

    The catch is that they have to be able to do it. GameStop have to sell games at a higher price than they buy them from the distributor. The distributor has to sell units at a higher total price than they paid for the distribution rights. However, if the retailer isn’t buying so many games from the distributor, say, because they know they only need about ten copies because six of them will come back second-hand, then the distributor has to keep his prices high.

    This is the most basic of basic economics. If you can’t grasp that, then you really shouldn’t be in this discussion.

    >Used game market or lack of a market wouldn’t chance the perception of games as a form. Assuming you are talking about art form and form of entertainment? How would either case change the perception? Most non gamers think its a kid thing and makes us violent and hostile. So without a used game market all of this goes away… Forget it.

    Most non-gamers think games are a "kid thing and makes people violent and hostile" because the bulk of games on the market are shoddy cartoon licences and next-gen-brown shooting games for 13 year olds to swear at each other with on xBox Live. The increased sales bought on by a lower price point would make the market more accessible to more people.

    As well as that, by making more room in stores for new product by getting rid of the space taken up by second hand- coupled with increased sales of new games- will make devs, pubs, and stores be more willing (or will force them) to take risks on different kinds of games which will change the perception of gaming- we’re seeing the start of this with Nintendo’s casual range, and the expanded market it has brought gaming.

    >If its not enough money for them to live on

    Nobody said it wasn’t. But: to use Nintendo again, Nintendo had "enough money for them to live on", and they still decided it wasn’t enough and started to aim at a new, untapped market, with massive success. That is all Take Two are doing.

    /b

  42. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Also you can say you drop game prices 50% and sale 60% more titles  and lose a 3rd or so profit you would have gotten if you sold it at normal price.

    Frankly because of the focus of the industry and the profit that needs to be made they should increase prices by 30-50% the used market will take care of those that can not afford the luxury as it always has.

    Prices are a problem but so are how the games are made, the games are made to be forgettable there is little you can do about the discontentment formed from lack of quality development but raise prises to off set the loses gained from short sightedness, it seems a standard corporate tactic to grow the industry while trying to stumble over a way to save it .

    Yes I do realize it sounds ridiculous as it means they will price them selfs into extinction..but zippy can dial in on and mimic corporate stupidity… but with growth no matter how inept comes innovation thats profitable.

     

     


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  43. NovaBlack says:

    Cry me a river.

    Tell you what, when used book sales (which have been common for how long now?) destroy a publishers ability to make money from a book, and they get banned, along with every other industry that doesn’t whine about it, then we shoudl talk about it. Until then its a non issue.

     

  44. nighstalker160 says:

    It isn’t, but the point is the same. It’s kind of silly to complain about stuff like this when you’re making record profits.

    Earlier in the thread you mentioned something about "game publishers want to eat." That’s a rather silly argument, these people are not destitute, they aren’t out on the street, they aren’t losing their homes. They’re just making slightly LESS obscene amounts of money than they could be.

    Sorry but, cry me a river. This is just a sign of a fat cat wanting to be fatter.

    I guarantee you if there was no used game market this guy would come up with something ELSE to blame for why his wallet isn’t as fat as he wants it to be.

    This isn’t some righteous crusade against a phenomena that’s really hurting his sales. His sales are, in fact, going up. They just aren’t necessarily going up as fast.

    Plus, I do take notice of the fact that he doesn’t actually present any…ya know…data on this issue. He just kinda spouts about it.

    I’d be very interested in knowing the percentage of sales actually lost due to used game sales. I’d wager it isn’t as big as you, or this guy, would think. In fact, I bet you he knows the number and realized how ridiculous it would sound if he actually mentioned it.

    Bottom line, most video game sales still occur at outlets like Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Target, in other words, places that do not sell used games.

    If he, or anyone else, wants to argue that used games sales are having a significant, measurable, negative impact, then let’s see the numbers. But if you’re going to whine about used game sales, ya might want to do  it at some point when you aren’t releasing record sales figures.

    And again, you’ve never bought a used item in your life? You don’t think a consumer who purchases an item has a right to sell it when he’s done with it? That sounds like corporate ownership of property there. Would you say that my house is actually owned by the builder and I don’t have a right to privately sell it? Or is my car still owned by Honda? Oral-B still own my toothbrush?

  45. beemoh says:

     How is that different to a few years ago when someone at Nintendo said

    "We had a great year…but if games weren’t so complicated we could have sold games to more different people and I could have bought TWO BMW’s instead of just one." 

    ?

    /b

  46. Awol says:

    How would getting rid of the used game market lower prices on games? Please they wouldn’t even bother touching the price except for increasing it. Don’t fool yourself if you think if everyone bought new they would lower the price. Having used games as a choice keep the price in-line really would you sell a game for $100 if you know someone can get a used game for $50?

    Used game market or lack of a market wouldn’t chance the perception of games as a form. Assuming you are talking about art form and form of entertainment? How would either case change the perception? Most non gamers think its a kid thing and makes us violent and hostile. So without a used game market all of this goes away… Forget it.

    From what I see game publishers and developers get their money. If its not enough money for them to live on then either raise the price, create something people really want or cut the budget. More money doesn’t mean better game and less money doesn’t mean crappy game. They should really focus on the experience and not some new technology or realistic graphics.

    Frankly seeing that the video game industry had a record breaking year and for the last few years out did the movie industry in terms of sales. I don’t feel sorry for them if they can’t figure out how to make money from it.

     

     

  47. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Besides what EZK and GRU are saying the only thing  free distribution brings to society  is creativity and money spent on hardware and things they truly love and support all of that shows up in time in mostly good ways. But it dose not directly support the developer even byproxy. However used games are sold from titles that HAVE made the developer money at one time and by support the retail chain and gamer both it supports the developer byproxy


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  48. beemoh says:

     >There a lot of people with varying reasons when it comes to dealing in the used market.

    Okay, we’ll use your three.

    >trading in their old games to get a new release.

    is more or less the same as

    >I saw many people buy used as it was more affordable

    so I’ll tackle them both simultaneously.

    The second hand market isn’t the same as piracy, in the sense that second hand actually is a lost sale, 100% of the time. These people are happy to Purchase a Game with Money.

    If someone is not prepared to buy a game for (figure plucked out of my arse) $50, but prepared to do so for $40, (or is prepared to buy at $50, but happens across a $40 used copy first) then a new pricepoint of $40 would increase sales. The people happy to buy at $50 will have bought the game, and the people happy to buy at $40 will have bought the game.

    So long as the $50 set and the $40 set are large enough combined, then the cost of original development can be spread over a larger number of units and thus games at a consistantly lower pricepoint becomes sustainable.

    However, in the meantime, so long as the $40 lot are in the second-hand market and cannibalising new sales- articifially inflating new prices at both production and retail- that simply can’t happen.

    How this can be achieved is simply another matter. "Just" making cheaper games doesn’t strictly work- how many people do you think traded in Mirror’s Edge because it was too short?- and I don’t think anybody expects the games industry to operate at a loss for however long it takes to 

    >the only way to get an actual copy.

    Then that’s another problem caused by retail. If the store knows it’s going to get 50% of its original buy back within a month or two, where is the incentive to buy enough copies to go around? If the store has copies in second-hand a year on, where is their incentive to buy new copies in? If retail is not going to buy more discs, where is the industry’s incentive to press more?

    /b

  49. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Let’s see. Aside from disk condition as GRU brought up, used games often come without manuals and boxes, or with damaged manuals and boxes.

    Sure you can find that information online, but it generally is not the same as having the real thing. Much like aftermarket parts for cars.

    While I agree that the car analogy is not 100% completely valid, it does compare as used car sales do impact the sale of new cars. That is why new cars come with warranties and such to get you to buy them.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  50. nighstalker160 says:

    So you have never, in your life, bought a used item?

    Face it, producers aren’t the only ones with property rights. Sure they can identify it as a problem, but there is a problem with saying "it’s negatively affecting us" while at the same time touting RECORD sales.

    That’s basically saying "We had a great year…but if they didn’t have used game sales I could have bought TWO BMW’s instead of just one." They’re making record profits, so obviously used sales aren’t having that much of an impact.

    Bottom line though, consumers have property rights in the things they buy. That includes the right to sell it used to a friend, or back to a store.

  51. nightwng2000 says:

    Actually, that’s not entirely true.

    When the game was originally purchased, the original product (DVD/CD/disk, container, etc) was paid for and the publisher, developer, etc, received their cut for that specific copy of the game.

    Book publishers/authors/etc, clothing manufacturers/designers/etc, furniture manufacturers/designers/etc, even food manufacturers/growers/etc, don’t receive anything when a product is resold to a friend, in a yard sale, in a consignment store, on ebay, sold as scrap, or other exchange of ownership.  BTW, you’ll notice I mentioned food.  Whether it’a a kid buying lemons and making lemonaide and selling it or someone making receipes and selling their concoctions in a bake sale, or some other way, the manufacturer/grower/etc got all they are going to get when the ingrediants were bought.

    Go even further:  Buy a lawnmower, and get paid mowing lawns.

    Buy a bicycle and deliver newspapers.

    In fact, beyond the initial, and perhaps subscription, licensing fees, if you bought a computer and used it in your place of business, how much extra for your usage of that computer would the manufacturer/developer/etc receive as opposed to the computer being used at home to play computer games?

    Whether you trade ownership of an item to gain cash or use the item to earn cash on an ongoing basis, the manufacturer/developer/etc, got all they’re going to get from the initial sale.  They aren’t entitled to additional income from that specific copy.

    Now, it’s more difficult to argue this when it applies to non-tangible products.  But when you’re talking about physically sold items, then it is far more clear.

    Nightwng2000

    NW2K Software

    Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

  52. ZippyDSMlee says:

    There are many more sucky games now and with the industry focusing on disposable mass market media new games just do not age well in either price or function(have they patched it yet?…no….).

    I like box art and I like owning the game but I refuse to pay more than 25$ a used game now so I pick and chose and add carefully.

     


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  53. gamegod25 says:

    I think someone needs to get T2 a bottle and a fresh diaper.

    I do support the selling of used games. That being said EB games is evil. Every gamer should boycott them and refuse to trade in their used games.

  54. GoodRobotUs says:

    Second discs tend to be beaten up, scratched on occasion and don’t have anything near the life of a second hand car, a car can be sold repeatedly, and can even be repaired by the owner, something game players don’t even have a right to do if you take the wording of the DMCA literally.

    If anything, second hand games are already more limited in that department.

  55. beemoh says:

    A second hand car tends to be beaten up, worn out and generally not perform as well as a new car would. Second hand games tend to work as well as new ones- the second hand car analogy isn’t comparable.

    /b

  56. rma2110 says:

    I think the problem is Gamestop and their way of buying and selling used games. As gamer we should refuse to sell used games there. Use E-Bay instead.

  57. E. Zachary Knight says:

    You cannot truly judge the impact of used game sales util we have accurate sales information of used game sales in relation to their original release date.

    ie, the purchase of a used game that was release 1 year or more ago would not be as impactfull as the purchase of one that was release within a year of its original release.

    Unfortunately, there is no accurate reporting of used game sales.

    But if I can make an estimate based off my limited knowledge of sales data, I would garner a guess in the range a <5% increase in sales.

    Having worked in EB games myself, I saw many people buy used as it was more affordable or the only way to get an actual copy. I also witnessed many people trading in their old games to get a new release.

    There a lot of people with varying reasons when it comes to dealing in the used market.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  58. Hannah says:

    I buy almost all my clothes at thrift stores, mostly the Salvation Army — I can’t justify spending over $100 on a sweater when I can the same item good-as-new for just $6 — so does that makes me a shoplifter?  After all, the clothing manufacturers aren’t getting a cent!

  59. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Not as much as you think. Sure those limited release cartidges of the past made some games more valuable to fans. Yet, now that printing and pressing games has become so cheap, there is very few games that have such collectible value at all.

    Also, very few people buy games to collect them. Most people buy them to play them.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  60. insanejedi says:

    You have to play with an evil when your taking a side with this issue. The question is which is the lesser of two evils.

    If you support the sale of used games then you also support companies like Gamestop who are really sleezy about their sale of games. At the same time, you are defending consumer rights and freedoms.

    If you support the sale of new games only, then you also support publishers which may be either big or small. Something like Activision Blizzard is someone who I do not support in their buisness practices and PR. But in return, you support developers getting their due and continuing what they are doing, perhaps with a bigger budget and more potential.

  61. beemoh says:

    >We have to ask: how "meaningful" can the supposed "negative impact" of used game sales be with game publishers having just completed their best year ever?

    How much better could this year have been without the second-hand market? What effect would a lack of second hand market have on game prices (clue: it’ll lower them), on the range of games available to the public (clue: it’ll increase it) and what it would do to the perception of games as a form? (clue: it’ll improve it).
     

    /b

  62. VideolandHero says:

    Buying used games is no different than piracy.  Either way the developers get no money off the game.

    — Official Protector of Videoland!

  63. ZippyDSMlee says:

    So used games are bad eh? then how would you like a 30% cut in new game sales roma  mix of a loss of a huge retailer and from losing gamers that can not afford not selling off old to buy new….

     


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  64. Baruch_S says:

    Lies. The industry makes more than enough money to break even and turn a profit. They don’t need more unit sales; they just want more money. That’s also why game prices are so high. They know enough people will pay $60 a game to make a nice profit, so why start the prices out lower?

  65. Craig R. says:

    Well, the other option if there are no used games is piracy. If they really want to force our hands over whether not we can buy used games, I can guess which option many would choose…

  66. beemoh says:

    >If I couldn’t get ahold of used games, I’d just wait until I could buy the new copies for less than $40.

    Exactly, thus proving my point. 😀

    /b

  67. Baruch_S says:

    If I couldn’t get ahold of used games, I’d just wait until I could buy the new copies for less than $40. The industry isn’t going to wring $60 out of me for a game either way. If I buy used, they at least had a chance of getting the full price from somebody else.

  68. sortableturnip says:

    In 5 years, there won’t be any games to buy from a store like Gamestop…They will all be download only and there will be no 2nd hand market…

  69. Michael Chandra says:

    Argument against that normally is that cars their conditions grow worse over time, they lose value. Some argue a game doesn’t. Of course, against that I’d comment "try playing the original Unreal Tournament". The constant improving quality of games in many ways, average graphic quality, sound quality, gameplay aspects, means that older games become worth less because the standards increase.

  70. reverandspaniel says:

    Apologies, didn’t make myself clear enough. Generates revenue in the economy and for the retailer. Not for T2. Hence the word "additional".

  71. Baruch_S says:

    Yeah, they should make a better product and sell it at a resonable price instead of complaining about the used game market. Wouldn’t that be freaking amazing? They might also solve their supposed piracy problem if they made great games and sold them at lower prices. Wow, who would have thought of that?

  72. beemoh says:

     Which one? All he’s done is say that he believes that new sales are being cannibalised by the second hand market, and that he believes the solution to this is to make better product.

    That’s neither a rant nor an attempt to get paid twice.

    /b

  73. Doomsong says:

    I’d say just about the whole rant on how a second hand market hurts multibillion dollar industries does a pretty good job of asking to be paid twice for the same copy of the game.

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  74. Baruch_S says:

    It doesn’t, and it shouldn’t. T2 already sold that copy of GTA; they shouldn’t get paid for it again. They also shouldn’t be allowed to control how people use what they’ve already purchased. If I buy something; I can do anything with it that I want aside from making and distributing copies. Game companies shouldn’t be able to stop me from playing, selling, or melting games I’ve purchased.

    Tell me, why should T2 get paid for GTA again? They made a copy, you bought the copy, they made money off that copy. Do you really think they should get paid for it again? That’s like saying Ford should get paid every time someone sells a used car. Restricting the sales of used games would be like restricting used car sales. I don’t see any other industry (aside from maybe music) complaining that people resell used stuff. If book publishers and car makers aren’t complaining, why are game companies? As long as they make enough money to cover the production costs and turn a little profit, game companies should shut up and be happy that they sold what they did.

  75. squigs says:

    Of course they can!  Prices aren’t based on sales of previous games.  They’re based on the amount that maximises profits.  That’s what the games industry wants to do.  It’s what businesses want to do.  the purpose of a business is to make as much money for the investors as possible.  That’s the whole point of developing the game in the first place. 

    If they thought they’d make more money doing so prices would drop.  They don’t think this.

    If the plan works, and people no longer want used games, trhen thre will be no competition.  How will this encourage them to reduce prices?

  76. questionmark1987 says:

    Once again, book comparisons are invalid, the cost is created from printing which happens in response to demand. Games cost upfront.

     

    Movies make their money back in most cases from box office sales not from final sales. The only exempts from this are the ones that never go to the theatre.

  77. Baruch_S says:

    And why can’t the game industry lower prices until new sales increase? It seems to me that lowering prices would increase new sales. Somebody has to take the first step, and the game industry would have an easier time organizing and implementing a price drop than the consumers would have organizing a buy new games campaign.

    Or the game industry can be happy that they’re making money despite the used game market, shut up, and focus on making games. They’re breaking even and turning record profits; I don’t think they have any room to complain.

  78. E. Zachary Knight says:

    It was a combination of low interest, difficult to manage inventory and pressure from publishers over piracy concerns.

    There was no central licensor for PC games and thus it was hard to keep track of all the possible games people would bring in. Most games that were traded in were logged under a generic PC game label.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  79. E. Zachary Knight says:

    But we keep demanding bigger, faster, more content-

    Who’s ‘we’? I am certainly not calling for that. And I know plenty of people who feel the same.

    DICE tried to make a game for less money recently. It was called Mirror’s Edge.

    I certainly would love to play it after hearing about it. Unfortuanately, I don’t own anything that would run it.

    It soon found itself in second-hand bins for being "too short".

    My impression was that it found its way there because people didn’t understand it. Much like most new IP. I personally don’t mind shorter games as long as the price is right. I certainly can’t justify paying $50-60 dollars for something that will only give a maximum of 10 hours of play time.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  80. Ambiguous says:

    Actually, thats a good question.  Why don’t they deal in used games?  I mean, I don’t know anything about economics, but if someone can bring in an old game for some cash, then the retailer can resell it for a little more income, why not work with PC?

    I know EB Games used to deal in used pc, but once it was acquired by gamestop it had to stop.  Is there just not enough money in it or are there other issues stopping it?

  81. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Its only irrelevant because you are diluted in the opinion  that second hand games is destroying the industry when billoins are spent a eyar on hardware that could easily go into the software side of the equation balancing price,cost and profit.

    You can’t drive a car thats out of juice (gas or electric) , you can not make better games by saying we will magically change if you buy more product (which has been steadily rising over the years/months),it dose not work like that it never has even if they are making record profits they will not change because it suits them more to create short term products and ride on the small time frame of profits they give them because they well know that consumers will not always buy a real quality product so the industry has chosen the lesser of evil to them and will continue on this path until corporate mentality changes, they will have to lower the over head they will have to bring back proper bug testing they will have to change the very nature of modern gaming in order to lower prices and make it a more profitable industry, however they won’t they are seeking to fulfill the whims of adolescents by blowing billions on better 3D bewbs which  costs us all profit and quality loss.

    As I have said with the console makers diluting the focus of the industry you can not have lower prices you can not make it more mainstream than ti already is because the very fact you have 3 incompatible hardware systems vying for profit you  damage what can be made be developers and publishers, think of it like this if if the 360 was the solitary standard how much money would be saved on  multi platform work? Not only would developers save billions world wide consumers would save billions world wide and that means billions X billions more  spent on consumer media and goods.

    So what ever foolish and incomprehensible train of thought you have about "ZOMG used games are killing the industry!" I completely totally and utterly reject as utter foul  zippy speak(unlike normal zippy speak which is just minorly flawed though bad grammar :P).

    I would agree used game damages the industry but whatever damage done is reasonably nullified by people trading in used games for news games and the sales from the places that sale used and new titles.I will also admit I don’t have all the answers but to exclaim silly and incomprehensible things is to be just well….zippy…… now do you want to be a zippy?? 😛

     


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  82. beemoh says:

    >Games are high priced because of the high price of wholesale.

    And the more units the wholesaler can sell, generally the less he will sell it for. Like I’ve said in nigh on every post so far.

    >This is why PC games drop dramatically in price usually only after a few months, even on Amazon.

    How many places do second-hand PC games? Not many, certainly not in the UK.

    /b

  83. TheEggplant says:


    Uhhh.. No

    Licensing on the individual consoles is different. That is why the PC version is always cheaper. Games are high priced because of the high price of wholesale.

    http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2006/06/4386.ars

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_26/159-A-Marginal-Business

    This is why PC games drop dramatically in price usually only after a few months, even on Amazon.

    I don’t like Gamestop, haven’t been into one in 5 years. Trying to stop me from buying used through DRM is underhanded. Trying to insensitivize me is great. Unfortunately companies such as EA and 2K have proven with past actions they aren’t to be trusted.

     

    ——————————————————————————————————————————— Hookers and Ice Cream aren’t free. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/5137-Stolen-Pixels-12-T

  84. beemoh says:

    I’ve done the DLC stuff upthread, so I’ll leave you be on that one.

    >So many are failing to break even b/c of the production costs and the expenses used to produce these games. It isn’t that consumers aren’t buying new often enough, they do buy new but it impossible to buy every game produced.

    But we keep demanding bigger, faster, more content- DICE tried to make a game for less money recently. It was called Mirror’s Edge. It soon found itself in second-hand bins for being "too short".

    I never said the games industry was blameless. However, that doesn’t mean retail and consumers are.

    >Games are mainstream […] and don’t forget, record sales…

    Which are still lower than mainstream persuits like films and music. More money’s being spent, yes, but it’s across fewer units by fewer people.

    /b

  85. beemoh says:

    >focusing entirely on DLC, I wouldn’t like to see since we’ve seen what some companies do with it.

    Dunno, I quite like the DLC-centric model for the music games- I’d rather have that and buy one or two tracks I want than have to buy twenty at a time which I mostly won’t on disc.

    >if they make it to where you can only do so by buying new

    Why would they do that? Surely that’d make them less money? I think the DLC approach is to monetise tradeins- turning the second-hand channel into a marketing tool, or just keeping games out of the channel altogether.

    /b

  86. JC says:

    So many are failing to break even b/c of the production costs and the expenses used to produce these games. It isn’t that consumers aren’t buying new often enough, they do buy new but it impossible to buy every game produced. That’s the result of competition and many expecting to break even by throwing tons of money at it to gain that "AAA" status and cover exclusives on a magazine or big preview sections on websites, etc. Don’t forget the expenses thrown at marketing.

    Games are mainstream, especially with the difficulty dwindling down on titles to make them more accessible to the general public and with Nintendo’s shift of strategy to their new market. Oh, and don’t forget, record sales…

    What plans are these? It remains to be seen, but by the mention of the analyst that they’ll focus more on DLC and online strategies. I’m speculating, but so far it hasn’t been promising in my opinion judging by other companies like EA. If you believe me to be overreacting, perhaps I am. I’m speculating that if they focusing on online instead of having it as an expansion; they will likely have them push for subscriptions and such, which I rather not see happening instead of simply owning a title. There wasn’t a discussion for making titles people don’t want to trade in, but make them extend the life of the titles by DLC and online play.

    There is a bit of problem with DLC and "fees", they want you to pay typically, which I don’t really see a problem with, but the perception of "what is real dlc" is a problem. Some companies can simply just sell the game in chunks and make you pay more with the "online focus" aspect, giving them an inch with that, means they’ll do it more often and we have yet another price increase for simply wanting the title itself. What if they charge for patches at some point? DLC typically is a fee, and you said they weren’t talking about a "fee".

    The Lost and the Damned seems great so far, but it’ll bug me greatly if they try some measure of authentication of "only copies that were purchased new may be allowed to buy it"

    Again, I’m speculating.

     

  87. beemoh says:

     >consolidate the game hardware into 1 unit

    Total irrelevancy, wouldn’t really be in retail’s power if it was.

    >The trouble is used sales can not and can never be touched

    Absolutely and totally incorrect. Again, for the hundredth time:

    Take.
    Two.
    Are.
    Not.
    Trying.
    To.
    Ban.
    The.
    Used.
    Market.
    They.
    Are.
    Trying.
    To.
    Make.
    A.
    Better.
    Product.
    So.
    That.
    You.
    Will.
    Not.
    Want.
    To.
    Trade.
    It.
    In.

    The second hand market can be basically destroyed if the industry is willing to undermine it. If game prices drop to the point where retail can’t offer consumers an attractive price and still sell the game on at a price that is lower than new and still profit, then the second hand market’s more or less dead and gone, apart from maybe bargain basement ‘complete collection’-type things on eBay. This is has happened with home video already.

    However, as long as new sales stay so low, cannibalised as they are by the second hand market, which we have proof of in the comments of this article, then prices are not going to get to this stage.

    So instead, Take Two are taking the sensible option of making a game you don’t want to trade in, because you’re playing it online in the long term/are waiting for DLC.

    They are not calling for a legislation.

    They are not threatening GameStop with anything.

    They are not suing consumers.

    You have nothing to complain about.

    /b

  88. ZippyDSMlee says:

    And new sales are not going to expand at a rate to drop prices until the console war model has been abandon and we have a universal system to buy software for is in place, IMO you are misplacing the damage the cost of hardware dose onto the used market and blaming it for all the issues that come about when you have 3+ sets of costly hardware to upkeep that by itself is spurning prices to rise and keeping it out of mainstream households because people do not want to spend 300$ 3 times to have all the systems so they can chose all the media they want..


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  89. beemoh says:

    The console war thing doesn’t make a blind bit of difference. Wholesale cost is the same whether they print a million xBox 360 discs or half a million 360 and half a million PS3 discs.

    There’s probably slight increases in production cost, but spread across all sales it’s so small as to be negligable.

    /b

  90. ZippyDSMlee says:

    They only have 3 choices stop and find a new line of work, lower the over head or consolidate the game hardware into 1 unit to sale all the software for because these issues are far more connected to price and profits than 2nd hand sales.

    The trouble is used sales can not and can never be touched, its like saying we are going to ban game/film sales/distribution because those in charge do not like them. Its a slippery slope that should never be touched. You don’t want to protect a business model that has to live off of taxes and used merchandise bans to survive if an industry can not survive on tis own merits precived by the public then it needs to die for the sake of progress and innovation because the void will be filled by a better process because thats true capitalism.

     


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  91. JC says:

    I see there is a disctinction that they blame gamestop for pushing used sales. However, they talk about online and DLC as future plans which in my opinion, can end up punishing consumers, even ones that buy new. I’m not saying online is bad, but that itself, is an expansion, and shouldn’t be the focus on consoles; and focusing entirely on DLC, I wouldn’t like to see since we’ve seen what some companies do with it. I’m only speculating on what some may do though, T2 seems to be doing DLC "right" so far, but if they make it to where you can only do so by buying new, then that’s a problem…

  92. beemoh says:

     >GameStop vs. Walmart

    If Walmart think they’ll sell ten copies of Beemoh’s Super Awesome Game X, Walmart will buy ten new copies at wholesale. If GameStop think they’ll sell ten, they’ll most likely only buy three or four at wholesale, knowing some will be coming back to be sold again.

    >Shelf Space

    I think that’s the case at most game stores- but the issue isn’t of how many discs they can have in a store room, but how many different titles they can have on display- count the number of different games are available at GameStop, then go to a major DVD outlet and see how many different DVDs are on sale.

    >often

    If so many games are failing to break even, and so many studios are closing, then people aren’t buying new often enough. Remember these "record breaking numbers" are revenue. Not sales. Games are simply still not ‘mainstream’, despite claims to the otherwise because some news programme did a human interest piece about some old people playing Wii Bowling. If a DVD cost a third of what a game does, then we’re only selling a third as many copies. How many people are being priced out of the market because prices aren’t getting any lower?

    >future plans of practices that will obviously punish the small margin of consumers who buy used.

    Sorry, what plans are these? The only one that’s been mentioned in this article is the one where the Take Two guy wants to make games people don’t want to trade in, not some draconian law, fee or DRM software measure.

    /b

  93. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Don’t glaze over the msot impaortant part that the hardware setup of the console war model forces it out of the mainstream and forces it to have higher prices across the board.


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  94. JC says:

    Of course production cost is important, the problem is they do throw millions and expect to make bank, but most just hope of breaking even! It is insane!

    Banking on second hand? I know Gamestop does this, but Walmart still sell a portion and as far as I know, they don’t have a second hand department, they also don’t count on game sales for profits, but yet they still sell them and quite a percentage of the total, to boot.

    Shelf space varies from store to store, at mine, they have plenty of empty copies and keep plenty in the storage area and only fish them out when needed. There is only so much a store can hold though, the problem is still dependent on how much they base demand on from pre-orders though.

    New sales don’t happen often enough? Seriously? Record breaking numbers nearly yearly, and it still isn’t often enough; even with the economy as it is? I think the real problem is greed at that point, consumers are making the market grow and the industry still demands more…there is a problem there. How much does the market need to sell if it keeps increasing in size?

    The people who say "lower prices now" are the ones that buy new and simply wait for them to drop in price, the fact is, they STILL buy new which means profits.

    If they really are reliant upon another, consumers have obviously done their part, but not the other two, yet there is blame upon consumers with future plans of practices that will obviously punish the small margin of consumers who buy used.

  95. beemoh says:

    I mentioned that DVD is a larger market. It is a larger market partially due to being more mainstream, and partially due to higher sales due to less used cannibalism.

    The high pricepoint for games *is* a major barrier to the mainstream adoption of the form (casual games being sold at noticably lower prices isn’t coincidental) but prices can’t come down until sales increase- something that the used market is an obstacle towards.

    I’m not saying there aren’t other factors- but this is, by far, one of the bigger ones.

    /b

  96. beemoh says:

     

    They will work, but they all have to happen more or less simultaneously.

    >I agree, but they seem more content with the perception that if they throw 80m at the game’s production

    Production cost isn’t that important, but how that is spread out is. More copies at wholesale = lower effective pricing. An $80mln game can still profit if it sells enough copies.

    However, you have to write off any number of sales higher than the artificially low number the retailers order, banking on second-hand, and higher prices put consumers off.

    >but retail on gamestop’s part refeuses to order extra stock

    And they have to balance available shelf space- individual titles are a lower risk if GS can stock more of them. Sadly, if half the store is taken up with second-hand games, then they have to take on fewer copies of fewer titles than they would if they were working with a full store.

    Of course, if they ordered more, then individual prices would be lower, increasing retail margins while simultaneously decreasing sticker prices, meaning higher sales.

    >I think the fact that they have record breaking numbers fairly nearly yearly, more or less proves that this happens quite "often."

    Although clearly not often enough- count up how many posts here are little more than "I never buy new LOWER PRICES NOW! *folds arms*"

    If more people were buying new, then retail would buy in more new copies at wholesale, which means more titles are likely to break even.

    The point is that all three are reliant on one another, but somebody has to break the chain to make cheaper games happen.

    /b

  97. beemoh says:

    But you did immediately assume it was greedy money-grabbing in your first post at the top of this thread, without perhaps looking at where this assumption comes from (hence my bollocks about economics), which is the problem.
     

    Demonstrable facts don’t change who is and isn’t right, for want of a better example- one party or the other is already right, be it us or Take Two, and we can’t work out who it is without looking at both sides, which doesn’t seem to be happening here, or at least it’s getting drowned out over "OMG GREEDY". (Example: most anything Zippy’s said ;P)

    /b

     

  98. JC says:

    The three situations you proposed likely won’t work.

     

    The industry needs to make cheaper wholesale games.

    I agree, but they seem more content with the perception that if they throw 80m at the game’s production, that people will somehow think it is the greatest title or for it to gain the perception of AAA, but a majority of consumers seem to avoid this, or they hate the entry price ($60). Only handheld developers seem to have the right idea of budget spending for quality titles.

    Retail need to improve their range of new games.

    I agree with this, but retail on gamestop’s part refeuses to order extra stock and bases it on the pre-orders they receive to calculate demand on how much they’ll order. Obviously, sleeper titles are ignored for the most part as a result of this. As for other retailers, walmart only seems to do something similar. I’m not sure how game-crazy or best buy does their range.

    Consumers need to buy new more often.

    I think the fact that they have record breaking numbers nearly yearly, more or less proves that this happens quite "often." The prices are also higher than last gen, more or less meaning that plenty of consumers have done their part.

  99. E. Zachary Knight says:

    I don’t think I ever said that corporations are evil for wanting to sell more new copies. That is fine for them to want. What I am complaining about is that they are saying that new sales are canablized by used sales without any facts to back that up. Whether that lack of facts is on their part for not seeking them out or on Gamestop and other used games merchants not releasing the data, is beside the point.

    They are only speculating on the loss of sales based on used games.

    AS far as I am concerned, used games help more game franchises than it hurts. But alas, my thoughts are speculative as well. I will give you that.

    Personally, I would love to see Gamestop release monthly sales reports on trade-ins and used sales. It would be quite enlightening to read.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  100. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Wow……I’d say your delusional  but I would be calling the pot black…. the reason dvds are cheaper is because it has a larger market and they can afford to sell them at 1X.xx a pop were as games have to be higher in price not because of used games but because the game industry has a double market bubble going om. One bubble is the limited hardware to distribute the games on the other is the size of the overall  market.

    In compensation the DVD market works on 1-2 hardware types DVD and blu ray and the blu ray can run DVD thus keeping revenue flowing for film developers  and this dose not even count whats made from theatrical releases, the game industry is so proprietary that it forces higher prices because it can only sustain 2 or 3 hardware monopolies, its not used games that is driving prices its the hardware/software exclusive driven nature of the game industry that forces them to keep prices high because one you have one hardware standard that all devs can make stuff for prices will go down because everyone has a higher chance of making some profit from the process and is able to sustain some form of profit over the long term unlike the current short sighted setup that has to push out games ASAP to maintain profit when items are at a higher price point.

    Used games are not the problem the nature of the console war business model is.


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  101. beemoh says:

     You (collectively) don’t have any more proof that the games industry is being greedy (other than "OMG TEH EVIL CORPORATIONS") than I have for any of my comments, however- at least I’m using reasonably sound economic theory rather than name calling.

    The problem is that Mr. Take Two is highlighting a problem ("new sales are too low because…"), and everone else here is also highlighting a perceived problem ("OMG TEH EVIL CORPORATION WANTS TO TAKE AWAY ARE SECOND HAND WAAAAA"), and while TT is trying to find a perfectly acceptable solution ("make new products more appealing"), here we get "OMG EVIL GREEDY etc" and nothing constructive.

    I want the same result as everyone else: cheaper games. However, without explaining the machinations of business, and my/your/somebody’s take on the situation, this isn’t possible.

    The industry needs to make cheaper wholesale games.
    Retail need to improve their range of new games.
    Consumers need to buy new more often.

    These are the three things that need to happen so that we can get what we want. These things are not going to happen individually and on their own. Until we accept that we all have a part to play, the situation isn’t going to change.

    /b

  102. beemoh says:

     So you’re saying that you’d buy more games if they were cheaper? Funny, that’s what I’ve been saying all along.

    Here’s the catch: the games industry can’t lower prices until new sales increase. New sales can’t increase (or can’t increase quickly enough to make a difference) for a number of reasons, one of which the T2 exec identifies as- not complains about- the second hand market, something he identifies as something that HE has to change, by improving his product, not something the government has to change by passing laws.

    He accepts that he has to do something within the realms of his product offering to do something to give himself the wriggle room to kick off lower pricing- in this case, make new games more attractive than second hand ones.

    /b

  103. beemoh says:

    Ask the retailers- the revenue figures are only really relevant to the health of the dev/pub industry, not retail.

    What matters in the second hand debate is the profit margins retailers see. Because film studios are able to use their economy of scales to sell discs wholesale cheaper, film retailers can still offer DVDs cheaper than games but still make more profit for themselves for unit.

    GameStop do the second hand stuff because they make more money per disc for used than new. If retail made more money per new disc, then their reliance on second hand would be unneeded.

    In order for GS’ new margins to increase, they either need to increase new game costs higher, or buy at wholesale cheaper. The former isn’t going to happen, $60 is, as we know, unpopular as a price. For the latter to happen, the dev/pub industry needs to sell more games to be able to lower their prices via the economy of scales- something they will struggle to do as the second hand market cannibalises their sales.

    /b

  104. Baruch_S says:

    Bull. What the industry fails to realize is that their consumers don’t all have bottomless wallets. Some people resell their old games to buy new ones. If they can’t get that resale money, they’ll buy fewer games. There are also the people like me who absoultely refuse to pay more then $40 for a game. I either wait until the game goes down in price (meaning the industry gets less) or buy used. If I buy used, the industry doesn’t get anything directly from me, but the guy who sold the game to Gamestop probably spent the money buying a new game that the industry did get the money from.\

    The video game industry is obviously doing fine especially considering that we’re in the middle of an economic crisis. They should be happy that they’re making enough money to cover their production costs and turn a little profit.

  105. beemoh says:

    >If movies did not have theatres they would rpbably be selling movies for $30+ per disk as well.

    If movies did not have theatres then other markets for films- broadcast, recorded media, even piracy- would increase. Not, I grant you, to the tune of the value of box-office takings, but still noticably. A more mainstream medium like film would still be selling discs at a lower pricepoint that those of a similarly-budgeted game.

    >Please give me some solid information to back that up. I have yet to hear anything besides specualtion to bacj up that statement no matter who says it.

    See my other posts in this thread where I bang on tediously about cannibalised sales and basic economics.

    /b

  106. face777 says:

    New games have always been at that price point, even before the second hand market became more ‘mainstream’, so your argument that such a facto is the reason for the high prices is flawed.  They are artifically high to begin with, and Gamestop / Gamestation / other second hand retailers base their pricing against that system.

     

    It’s not a case of what came first, the chicken or the egg, as the high price of new games has always been there.  If they are suggesting that they COULD be lower, except that such stores are taking their profit, then lowering the price would surely encourage more to buy new?  IF the second hand retailers lower their prices accordingly, well… that’s capitalism for you.

  107. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Games are only 3-5 times the cost of DVDs because of the second hand market.

    I highly doubt it is a direct result of used sales. It has more to do with the fact that movies usually break even in the box office and not the store front. If movies did not have theatres they would rpbably be selling movies for $30+ per disk as well.

    No, but then, neither do the bulk of film buyers. Most film sales are still discs from B&M stores, and let’s not forget the extra revenue from the box office and TV.

    Actually  I would say that it is pretty much the same type of people who buy used games. The yare looking for a specific release of a movie as it has the extra features they want or it is a hard to find new movie.

    And used games make new games more expensive.

    Please give me some solid information to back that up. I have yet to hear anything besides specualtion to bacj up that statement no matter who says it.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  108. sirdarkat says:

     Blockbuster also does the whole selling movies that have been used before granted its the ones they have rented out instead of ones they have bought from people but similar concept and I doubt the movie company sees a dime off of that sale.

  109. beemoh says:

     >How muc hof the $60 price tag of new games a direct result of used game sales?

    The difference between the price tag of a new game and the price tag of a new film.

    /b

  110. E. Zachary Knight says:

    While not all of them, but a fair ammount are large retailers that sell both used and new movies and books. One would be Hastings. A place that sells, both new and used movies, books, music and games.

    Let me ask you a question. How muc hof the $60 price tag of new games a direct result of used game sales? Also, how much of that price tag a result of the stigma resonating from "next-gen" consoles?

    I would gather that more of the price increase comes from the latter rather than the former.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  111. beemoh says:

    >have you bothered to check and see how many used DVDs are on Amazon and Ebay?

    No, but then, neither do the bulk of film buyers. Most film sales are still discs from B&M stores, and let’s not forget the extra revenue from the box office and TV.

    >games are easily 3-5 times the cost of DVDs.

    Games are only 3-5 times the cost of DVDs because of the second hand market. If a game and a movie cost the same amount to produce, the film is more likely to profit because it will shift more new units, partially due to being a more mainstream medium, and partially due to its lower pricepoint- something it is able to maintain due to its higher new sales.

    >You see because of the high price it makes used games that much more lucrative

    And used games make new games more expensive. If games were just $10 cheaper, what do you think that would do to the amount GameStop would give consumers at trade-in, or their margins? If GS offered even less at trade-in, they’d lose that market altogether. If the margins went, the second hand market wouldn’t be sustainable. It’s in GS’s best interest to keep new prices high.

    /b

  112. Truec says:

    I’d love to hear the reasoning behind your theory that the retailers are artificially inflating retail prices, and particularly why this would have anything to do with the secondhand market.

  113. beemoh says:

     >I can name a least a dozen places within a 20 minute drive from my house that sells either used books or movies.

    How many of those are big-box retailers where the masses actually buy their media?

    >So let’s see what they decide to actually implement then.

    They can increase revenue buy having DLC that expands the life of a game. They can also increase revenue through episodic games, expansion packs etc.

    GTAIV Multplayer? Lost And Damned? Non-‘live’ online like Rockstar Social Club?
     

    Part of this could be as simple as selling games $5/unit less to the wholesaler, slowly undermining the value of the second-hand market, but if- as I suspect- retailers are artificially keeping new prices up to support the second-hand market, then that’s simply not going to work. And it assumes that the projects can still profit with at $5 less per unit.

    That this isn’t something that can be solved by one party alone.

    /b

  114. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Not front in center? have you bothered to check and see how many used DVDs are on  Amazon and Ebay? I believe that EB/GS is about the only nation wide retailer that dose sale used media in B/M stores but thats due to it being a effect business model even more so since games are easily 3-5 times the cost of DVDs.
    Also another reason why tis not front and center is the CEOs and exces already stopped people from returning a bad title in the 90s they pretty much stopped whining years ago.

    You see because of the high price it makes used games that much more lucrative, only old books stores and ma and pa outfits would bother reselling a DVD/VHS for 4 or 6$ to only get a buck or 2 out of it and you would need 2 or 3 items the space to be able to make a real profit off it than you would for games.

    If the game industry wants to stop whining..er…do soemthing they’ll have to gear it down and make less top heavy games and lower their own dev costs.


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  115. E. Zachary Knight says:

    True. Their used sales are not waved in their faces like the games industry, but it is just as prevelant. I can name a least a dozen places within a 20 minute drive from my house that sells either used books or movies. There could be more that I don’t know about. They obviously have some kind of impact on their respective industries.

    I did make a general statement about DRM which has been used lately to limit resale and "piracy". I did glaze over that line in the quote. But why are they only concerned about the lifetime sales of AAA titles? I guess that would be because they have to most to lose when it comes to those games. I can understand why used game sales are a problem for those games.

    So let’s see what they decide to actually implement then.

    But just as a suggestion and so I don’t sound like a complete used game sympathizer, They can increase revenue buy having DLC that expands the life of a game. They can also increase revenue through episodic games, expansion packs etc. There are more ways to make money off of a game than jus tthrough new sales.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  116. beemoh says:

    >The difference is that although none of those industries like used sales and rentals, movies and authors have stopped publicly complaining about it

    But their used markets aren’t front and centre, like the games one is. New sales of those media are such that mainstream retail doesn’t need used to prop itself up. (Although I am, of course, speaking from a UK-centric perspective here)

    >For once, however, I would like to hear a CEO or whoever whines say something along the lines of "Used games are cutting into new game sales. Here is what we are doing to make new game purchases more appealing to and better for consumers."

    Then how’s about, from the GP article: "online play and downloadable content which extend the lifespan of AAA titles"? Sounds pretty much like what you’re looking for. He didn’t ask for DRM, and he didn’t ask for legislation.

    /b

  117. E. Zachary Knight says:

    I agree. Game Developers do deserve to be compensated for their time and talents. So do movie producers and authors. The difference is that although none of those industries like used sales and rentals, movies and authors have stopped publicly complaining about it and have come to terms with the fact there is nothing they can do to stop it.

    For once, however, I would like to hear a CEO or whoever whines say something along the lines of "Used games are cutting into new game sales. Here is what we are doing to make new game purchases more appealing to and better for consumers."

    Until then all I hear is whining.

    Adding DRM that unnaturally limits the resalability of games is not the right way to go.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  118. beemoh says:

    >If they are suggesting that they COULD be lower, except that such stores are taking their profit, then lowering the price would surely encourage more to buy new?

    Only is they are able to break even at the lower price point (less likely considering the current sales situation), and that retailers will pass that saving on in the first place, considering that doing so would undermine their more lucrative second hand market.

    As I’ve said, this isn’t a one-party issue.

    /b

  119. questionmark1987 says:

    Book publishing continues to get cheaper, not more expensive. It additionally requires very little in terms of up front money. Most of the cost is in printing copies which is done to match sales. The large majority of the price of game developement happens before a single copy is ever sold.

  120. Yuuri says:

    I don’t see book publishers whining about second hand book stores, do you? They don’t get any part of the resale of books. Do you see authors complaining about second hand book store? Nope. In fact I know of several well known authors go to one of the largest second hand book stores in the USA to do signings.  (The book store in question is Powell’s Books in Portland, OR. Their largest store is an entire city block, and 4 stories tall.)

    All the developers and publishers are entitled to is the first sale. After that it belongs to whomever purchased it.

  121. beemoh says:

     You can cancel calls off with the B button. Also, there’s a ‘sleep mode’ which turns the phone off altogether.

    /b

  122. Frank says:

    I second the bit out it being mediocre.  I hate how often I get called up to go out and do things with people I don’t care for.  Wish I could just drop the damn phone and be done with it.

  123. Doomsong says:

    Why did Feder also leave out the part where GTA4 (despite being a mediocre game in every way) also broke records by itself?

    I gotta go with greed on this one.

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" – Benjamin Franklin

  124. Keleron says:

    The used game markert is one that the game developers get nothing from. And I respectfully disagree with Dennis that companies are just "whinning". All you need to do is take a look at how many studios are closing up shop. Even EA has to close several of its studios. Hundreds of thousands of game industry veterans are suddenly finding themselves out of work. Companies hate doing it, but they don’t want to go under.

    Personally I feel that the people in the used games market are the ones "whinning" about how games shouldn’t cost $60. But as the technology gets better and customers expect more (better graphics, more content, etc.) the cost of development gets more expensive.

    Developers see the used game market as stealing money from them. And contrary to Dennis’ comment about greedy corporates, the companies do need the money. Now I understand the place and desire for the used games market and the ways in which it helps the consumer. But if you want to protect it, then quit "whinning" about the game companies in a forum and prove to them that the used game market is actually good for them. Because right now game developers need all the money they can find just to keep their companies afloat. So help them out and show them how helping the used game industry would actually benifit them, because unless you do you will begin to see more and more games levraging one-time use codes and other such tactics.

  125. beemoh says:

    At industry side, it lowers unit sales, making projects riskier, and yes, impacts on profits.

    At consumer side, it keeps the price of new games artifically high and lowers consumer choice.

    /b

  126. beemoh says:

    Waaah!! They’re trying to take away my used games! Waaah!! People with jobs in videogames would like money to buy food to eat! Waaah!! I might ever have to enter into a give-and-take system rather than just take! Waaah!

    Seriously, that is all I hear. We can all twist meanings if we want to.

    Certainly as far as the GI.biz article Dennis cites is concerned, Take Two aren’t trying to ‘take away’ the second hand market, just identifying it as a problem their business have to overcome- and it is a problem, as anyone with a passing grasp of economics can see.

    The quote isn’t "Second hand is a problem, let’s legislate against it" (although, yes, some have said it in the past), or "Second hand is a problem, let’s stop selling to GameStop" it’s "Second hand is a problem, how can we create products that mitigate this issue?"- which is exactly the attitude the industry should be taking.

    /b

  127. barra_sadei says:

    In a slightly related note, I’m suggesting that we compile a Waagh! to deal with this situation. Preferably with gamers, and not orks, for obvious reasons.

  128. E. Zachary Knight says:

    Waaah!! People aren’t keeping our games forever. Waaah!! People like to save money. Waaah!! We should be treated differently than every other industry when it comes to First Sale but not when it comes to content regulation. Waaah!

    Seriously, that is all I hear. First Sale Doctrine is a fact of physical goods life. Get used to it.

    E. Zachary Knight
    Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
    http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma


    E. Zachary Knight
    Divine Knight Gaming
    Oklahoma Game Development
    Rusty Outlook
    Random Tower
    My Patreon

  129. Afirejar says:

    It generates additional revenue, keeping people in jobs (which at a time like this, is a great thing…so why are companies whinging about that?)

    Please tell me, if I sell my used copy of GTA4, how does that generate revenue for Take2? You do know, that there’s more than one company, do you? It’s not a hard concept.

  130. reverandspaniel says:

    Its totally ridiculous, once a consumer purchases a new product they are well within their rights to sell it on to whoever they please, including a retailer. That retail is within their rights to sell it back to a second consumer at a reduced price. It generates additional revenue, keeping people in jobs (which at a time like this, is a great thing…so why are companies whinging about that?)

    I think that Epic managed to produce a great concept, with the extra downloadable map pack with each original copy of Gears 2. It encourages people to buy it new, but doesn’t penalise them by much if they choose to go second hand.

    I think that while developers should be due more money from the sale of their games, it’s the publishers which are becoming too greedy…

  131. barra_sadei says:

    I’d like to point out that, if Game Stop couldn’t sell used games, they’d probably go out of business, and if they could resell used games (by paying a percentage to the game developers), they’d cut corners and drop stores (probably).

    I’d also like to point out that, if people can’t go out and buy used games from one convinient collection, I’d guess that old games are more likely to probably be forgotten, repackaged with one or two new things as a new game (a la the re-release of Final Fantasy games or, more recently, Chrono Trigger), or pirated more often. Considering that people would want to play the old masterpiece games, the first option is least likely, and some old games are already re-released. I’d bet that people would pirate more often.

  132. GoodRobotUs says:

    As I’ve said before, this is what all that ‘numbered life’ of Video Games is about, not combatting Piracy, but combatting second hand sales.

    Video Game corps are becoming exactly like every other Mega-corp out there, it had to happen eventually, and if people start refusing to buy their goods, they have built the perfect scape-goat, Piracy.

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