Leland Yee Urges Supreme Court Appeal of California Ruling

Is California’s violent video game law headed to the U.S. Supreme Court?

State Sen. Leland Yee (D) thinks it should be. Yee has urged California Attorney General Jerry Brown to appeal today’s 9th Circuit Court decision which upheld a lower court’s ruling that the video game law he authored in 2005 is unconstitutional.

Yee, a child psychologist, released this statement: 

While I am deeply disappointed in today’s ruling, we should not stop our efforts to assist parents in keeping these harmful video games out of the hands of children.  I believe this law will inevitably be upheld as Constitutional by the US Supreme Court.  In fact, the high court recently agreed, in Roper v. Simmons (2005), that we need to treat children differently in the eyes of the law due to brain development.

 

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97 comments

  1. sbs sonucu says:

    sbs

    When the refere of a Soccer match has made their decision, 9 times already in the state of California, no matter how you bitch or moan, the refere is never going to change their decision.

    And if the refere says that Videogames are Protected Speech, it means that Videogames are Protected Speech.

    But no matter how good these politicians think they are, they will always be sore loosers if they don’t get what they want.

  2. florian says:

    Mr. Yee as there is nothing in these games they need protection from. Also how can a man claiming to "Protect the Children" vote against a law banning toxic plastics from childrens toys, something that actaully really does harm children. I swear kids are getting more of a green pass each day to break the law and commit crimes and then when they’re caught they claim ignorance and blame the TV and they get off scott free. They event ignore their assignment, dissertation and thesis writing

  3. GoodRobotUs says:

    ‘In fact, the high court recently agreed, in Roper v. Simmons (2005), that we need to treat children differently in the eyes of the law due to brain development.’

     

    Funny that these particular claims are made by people who were raised in a society that did far less to protect them when they were young than society does now. All that evil Media like Rock’N’Roll, Latin dancing, comic books etc were ‘proven’ to corrupt their minds.

    Now this leaves two possible options:

    (a) These people seriously need a bandwagon to be on else they feel as useless as they actually are.

    (b) Society really did damage Yee when he was a child ,with all that horrible media, and he was effected, and if that’s the case, what the heck is he doing as a politician?

    Yees generation is the Generation that, post WW2, had the struggle of finding their own identity and individuality, his generation was famous as the ‘Baby Boomers’, he seems to forget that the struggles of young people when he was young is part of what inspired the more free way of thinking in younger people today. In truth, he’s desperately trying to become his own father, dictating to all the little kiddies not to do anythng he used to do, and enjoy, when he was young.

    Society has been getting along just fine without his law for thousands of years, I’m sure nothing cataclysmic will happen to our youth because his poorly thought-out law didn’t get enforced.

  4. finaleve says:

    In a sense, we do treat kids differently.  How many of you have been spanked at least once for doing something bad?  As an adult, we could get arrested for doing such a thing, but as a child we’d have to take it because we "fucked" up and this is our punishment.

    We are basically taking the obligation of being a parent and shitting all over it.  Eventually they will have government run Parental Facilities where you can just drop off your child and have the goverment train your child with every day things.

     

    Will Smith had it right…Parent’s Just Don’t Understand

  5. Shadow D. Darkman says:

    For Mr. Yee, from a Mr. Diego Armando.

    EDIT: Whoops, got his name wrong. *facepalm*

    EDIT 2: Got a smaller pic, to appease the mods.

    SDD: Made an OBJECTION! (click the pic) to add salt to the wound.

    ——————————————————————————-

  6. TBoneTony says:

    Like a soccer player who blames the referee for his side losing the match, Yee is a bad example of a politician who needs to be dumped from the team.

  7. TBoneTony says:

    When the refere of a Soccer match has made their decision, 9 times already in the state of California, no matter how you bitch or moan, the refere is never going to change their decision.

    And if the refere says that Videogames are Protected Speech, it means that Videogames are Protected Speech.

    But no matter how good these politicians think they are, they will always be sore loosers if they don’t get what they want.

     

  8. PeterWDAwson says:

    I stopped caring about Lee’s posturing about thinking of children when he allowed the use of toxic plastics to be continuted for toys.

  9. PHX Corp says:

    So the odds are not against us per se

    Watching JT on GP is just like watching an episode of Jerry springer only as funny as the fights

  10. sqlrob says:

    He should put his money where his mouth is. If he’s so sure he should "loan" the state the money for the appeal, to be returned on success. On failure, he personally pays every dime of the state’s court costs from the beginning.

  11. C. Aaron Browbowski Jr. says:

    yeah, i think you got that wrong, it’s more of 10,000 cases out of 100 that are heard each year… so it’s really a 1 out of a 100 shot that this silly case will be taken into consisideration IF THAT!

     

    Jesus Jack Jones Thompson loves you, so die for him instead of the other way around so he can sue your ass back to the stoneage (oooh upgrade!)

  12. Sai says:

    You can "assist" parents with that all you want, but many of them are still going to buy M-rated games for their kids. At that point you just have to do what society seems to hate doing the most: *gasp* actually hold a parent responsible for parenting!

  13. PHX Corp says:

    I doubt It’ll head to the US supreme court (given the case that they have 100 cases a year out of a 1,000)

    Watching JT on GP is just like watching an episode of Jerry springer only as funny as the fights

  14. PHX Corp says:

    Leland yee, If you contiune to force California to urniate on people’s rights and keep Pissing away money, the state will become bankrupt(like earlier this month, due to the state budget crisis that started in december)

    Watching JT on GP is just like watching an episode of Jerry springer only as funny as the fights

  15. hayabusa75 says:

    Case was closed…no charges filed…

    So much for the presumption of innocence.

    "There is no sin except stupidity." – Oscar Wilde

  16. PHX Corp says:

    Taken from wikipedia(for everyone to know Leland yee’s Colorful History and to qwell the citation needed for proof)

     

    Allegations of theft and prostitution

    On December 19, 1992 Per County of Hawaii Police Lt. Ed Tanaka caught Leland Yee as he walked out of the KTA Superstore in Kona’s Keauhow Shopping Village with a small bottle of "Tropical Blend Tan Magnifier oil" in his front short pocket.[5] He was subsequently stopped by a store security officer who summoned the local police. Yee was booked on suspicion of petty misdemeanor shoplifting but the case was closed in 1993 without prejudice. However, the case was publicized by the San Francisco Chronicle which published Yee’s mug shot.

    Yee has also been pulled over by SFPD three times under the suspicion that he was cruising for prostitutes in the Mission District of San Francisco. All three times, he was questioned by police and let go with no charges filed.[6]

     

    Editing Wikipedia

    On September 4, 2007 it was revealed using WikiScanner that IP addresses registered to computers in the California Senate office had made changes to its Wikipedia entry favoring Leland Yee.[14] It was reported that they removed the 1992 shoplifting allegations and the video game controversies sections.

    These are the only controversies that I know about Leland yee aside from the video game controversey(that are cited on his Wiki bio)

    Watching JT on GP is just like watching an episode of Jerry springer only as funny as the fights

  17. sqlrob says:

    Here is a married man who crusies the drag at night looking for protitutes and stealing $8 items from drugs stores

    [Citation Needed]

  18. GRIZZAM PRIME says:

    Yes Yee, that’s exactly what California needs right now, for you to keep dicking around with stupid bullshit laws that only the illiterate or completely braindead need. Meanwhile, we have imporatant shit to do, and I guess you don’t want anything to do with that.

    Also, "developing brain" does not equate to "retarded until 18 years of age".

  19. JustChris says:

    As more and more gamers reach the age of legal constituency, these kinds of laws will get less support. I’m tired of laws that spoon-feed parents.

    GameSnooper

  20. Solipsis says:

    What, no "Ultraviolence"?

    Mr. Yee, you disappoint me. I needed my Clockwork Orange reference to get me through my friday afternoon! 😛

  21. Bigman-K says:

    No, i’d feel sorry for the puppy. Now if they found some incriminating evidence of him with some prostitutes that would be great. I heard for a married man he has quite a liking for them.

     

    "No law means no law" – Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black on the First Amendment

  22. Bigman-K says:

    Leland Yee is nothing more then a two-faced hypocrite. Here is a married man who crusies the drag at night looking for protitutes and stealing $8 items from drugs stores trying to jam morality based laws down our throats. Children neither want nor need your so-called protection Mr. Yee as there is nothing in these games they need protection from. Also how can a man claiming to "Protect the Children" vote against a law banning toxic plastics from childrens toys, something that actaully really does harm children. Me thinks Mr. Lee had a nice check mailed to him by some toy manufacuers for his re-election campaign. There is a reason i despide this guy.

    "No law means no law" – Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black on the First Amendment

  23. Shoehorn Oplenty says:

    "While I am deeply disappointed in today’s ruling, we should not stop our efforts to assist parents in keeping these harmful video games out of the hands of children."

    Your efforts? The retailers’ effort have led to a 80% success rate in this issue. These politicians efforts have led to a 100% failure rate and a massive amount of expenditure.

    "I believe this law will inevitably be upheld as Constitutional by the US Supreme Court."

    In complete opposition to what has been decided twice already.

  24. SinisterInfant says:

    He looks so sad in that picture.  Like somebody killed his puppy.  Also I hope someone killed his puppy

  25. robbway says:

    we need to treat children differently in the eyes of the law due to brain development

    Mr. Yee is a smart man, by he misses the fact that the law ALWAYS treats children differently, otherwise we’d have a bunch of drunk, and smoking 5 year olds.  You don’t need to quote a recent case.  And for his benefit, children can’t enter binding contracts, make medical decisions, or stay home alone at a young age, either.

  26. EvilTikiMan says:

    People like Arnold, Leland, and the rest of the old fogies will only be ousted if we the younger generations activly make an effort of taking the reigns of power from them weither it be via voting (and getting others to vote alike) or steping into the shoes of a senator or congressman ourselves.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Responsibility: Something that everyone has, but no one seems to want when something goes wrong. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  27. EvilTikiMan says:

    While I agree that someone should come out and chew them out by pointing out that it is almost always they (the parents) fault, no one would listen to them since no one whats to take the blame. First I will refer you to my Sig at the bottom of my post. Then allow me to quote a famous line: "The Truth, you cant handle the truth!"

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Responsibility: Something that everyone has, but no one seems to want when something goes wrong. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  28. Zero Beat says:

    I think he should do it.  Then we get a SCOTUS ruling in our favor and he gets out voted out of office for wasting California’s time and money.

     

    "That’s not ironic. That’s justice."

  29. M. Carusi says:

    "I believe this law will inevitably be upheld as Constitutional by the US Supreme Court."

    I would submit that you don’t exactly have a good track record to base that claim on, Congressman.

    Seriously, that goes beyond tenacity and just sounds incredibly pompous.

    M. Carusi

    Capitol Gaming

    http://capitolgaming.blogspot.com

  30. BearDogg-X says:

    Hae to break it to you, Mr. Yee, but the Supreme Court will more than likely not hear California’s appeal of today’s 9th Circuit ruling against your worthless video game law, since all the court rulings are in favor of the video game industry.

    Mr. Yee, be a man, admit defeat, and move on.

    Geaux Saints, Geaux Tigers, Geaux Hornets, Jack Thompson can geaux chase a chupacabra.


    Proud supporter of the New Orleans Saints, LSU, 1st Amendment; Real American; Hound of Justice; Even through the darkest days, this fire burns always

    Saints(3-4), LSU(7-0)

  31. PHX Corp says:

    Gov Arhnold "Get to the choppa" Schwarzenegger: I think his term is going to be up soon

    State senator Leland "Needs a cup of STFU" Yee: He may no longer be in the senate

    Watching JT on GP is just like watching an episode of Jerry springer only as funny as the fights

  32. BlindJustice15 says:

    Are you thirsty, Mr. Yee? How about a nice cup of Shut the Fuck Up?

     

    Personally, I want the Supreme Court to hear this so the matter can be settled once and for all. I also think Californians should recall Governor Schwarzenegger and urge that Mr. Yee be expelled from the State Senate.

  33. Doom90885 says:

    Unless the parents are borderline retarded I can’t imagine what is so complicated about ESRB game ratings? Unless their IQ is a single digit number I can’t see what more they need to make a decision about choosing a game. As TK n Happy Ness said all this is about is parents not wanting to their job and be parents and have the government police their children when it should be them doing it. I wager half the parents complaing about game content are the ones who buy it for their kids and then complain about it. They don’t have a leg to stand on. I don’t know why somone doesn’t chew these people out and point the truth out but oh well. As for brain development…..how many scapegoats are these ppl trying to give children when they do something wrong? I know kids brains are developing but they weren’t born yesterday most know what they are doing is wrong even if they can’t fathom all the consequences and should be held accountable. I swear kids are getting more of a green pass each day to break the law and commit crimes and then when they’re caught they claim ignorance and blame the TV and they get off scott free.

  34. JC says:

    Ah Yee, treating children differently or not, can simply be done at the expense of the parent, and not the government’s.

    A law isn’t needed to keep your children from these games, and throwing away money to make it law doesn’t help at all for your "cause."

    The first amendment is pretty absolute in this game, especially when no one’s well-being is at risk from these games simply being sold at the discretion of parents.

  35. sqlrob says:

    If you were responding to me, I wasn’t talking the violence and cursing. In American Pie, think Webcam, "What’s my name,…?",Band Camp. All sexual and as much or more shown than Hot Coffee. Why should Hot Coffee have pushed over into AO?

    As to your point 1, as had been said hundreds of times, PROVE IT, and prove it is substantial enough to warrant legal restriction.

  36. Andrew Eisen says:

    But why bother?  One game out of multiple thousands was misrated.  Big deal.  It was addressed and remedied quickly.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  37. Andrew Eisen says:

    The ESRB is upfront about not playing games.  It’s right on their website.  They rate games based on a content submission form and gameplay video provided by the publisher.  Hand picked and randomly selected titles are played to ensure the publisher provided content is accurate.

    Seeing as how out of the multiple thousands of titles rated there have been only one to three problems (depending on how you count), I don’t see why this method isn’t satisfactory.  Why go through the time and expense to play through the entire game?  It’s completely unnecessary.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  38. Wolvenmoon says:

    Then have them play through it on top of the developer’s submission. The oblivion problem was retroactively explained as missing much of the blood and gore, when the majority of it can be seen and predicted the first time that zombie comes tottering around the corner in the beginner’s dungeon.

    A full run of oblivion’s main quest takes <15 hours. Everything else is sidequesting. Even if the entire game isn’t played completely through, we’ve more than doubled what they’re doing now to verify content.

  39. Wolvenmoon says:

    To the other two posters below this as well….

    An "R" rated action flick with violence, cursing, and the works is treated the exact same as an "R" rated comedy in rating.

    Also, don’t most games have the descriptions on the back of the box? Let’s grab unreal tournament anthology…any of you have F.E.A.R. 2 or GTA IV handy? Here it is: M for blood and gore, intense violence, and mild language. What’s GTA IV rated M for?

     

    If the ESRB cannot play every game that gets a restrictive rating (I’m going to say restrictive as T and up) through, then they are not rating the content of the game and not doing their job. I really don’t give a flying flick if they don’t have the manpower. They need to either be blatantly obvious about games they play through and games they don’t play through, play all games with a restrictive rating through, or pave the way for someone else to do so.

    I’m not sure how I ended up playing devil’s advocate so hard. What would pacify me is either bright red barcodes (Typically under the ESRB descriptors) so that clerks couldn’t check the game out without knowing beyond any doubt that there was something different with it, or the rating having a bright red background instead of a white one. I believe a local super target store actually already sets M games away from T games, and T games away from everything else, at least in PC software.

    I’d actually LIKE the ESRB if they added a ‘T 16+’ rating on top of this. GTA? Definitely ‘M’ at least. Manhunt 2? Can’t say myself if it should have gotten the ‘M’ instead of the ‘AO’, but oh well. Crysis would be a great example of a ‘T 16+’ game.

    Also, suppose I’ll just close up my contribution to the entire discussion here: Computer security 101 : Unmanaged physical access is unmitigated absolute access. A web browser without some form of constantly updated filtration is a gateway into all sorts of trouble.  Any filtration without some form of moderation can be bypassed. There have been other discussions talking about piracy on this site, and how easy it is to do.

    I can champion a clearer rating system where there’s a rating that allows for some more intense content, then one that you can expect some hell on (Most of my games are M rated, actually) all I want and when it comes down to it even if there were armed guards patrolling the M rated software and R rated movies, with them back in a one entrance vault that required ID every step you took, it wouldn’t prevent a child from grabbing bittorrent and pirating all the M, AO, R, and even X rated content he or she wanted-and possibly getting the family sued. (Mega comma splice, but it’s 4 in the morning-cut me some slack, I’ve been fragging people in UT..)

    What I believe to be true:

    1.Violent video games on young developing (12 and under) minds have a negative effect, the measure of which is not yet known but the presence of it can be seen. There have been 8 year olds that go into puberty, there are people under twelve that can handle ‘M’ content, both of these groups are the tiny minority and if the parent feels that their children can handle it, fine with me.

    The government can’t stop them, neither can I, nor do I care to. I do support bigger warning signs, and not funding government programs to catch them.

    2.Our current rating system is flawed and at least a little biased. The understanding given to the majority of the public is games are played through and examined closely, the truth is content samples are sent in from the game developer,a nd possibly a beta, then at random games are playtested. If this were a water treatment plant, we’d all be drinking shit in our water after being told it was treated and filtered.

    3.’Parental control’ in TV, consoles, and PCs gives a false sense of security. While I know not everyone is like me, at age 10 I was able to bypass every filter we had, unintentionally actually. I used to look on the web for jokes, and for some reason all the joke sites ended up with all sorts of dirty banners. Also, google images. None of this is the set-it-and-forget-it stuff it tries to be and advertises itself as.

    My opinion: Make the M rated games stick out like sore thumbs, seperate them visibly from other games (Same aisle, different display case), add a 16+ rating, clearly define the descriptors that make a game belong in a specific rating, and start some sort of campaign-even if just a flier in the jewel cases-to try to get parents active.

    For heaven’s sake, a friend of our family’s is a doctor that used to work 28 hour shifts, sleep for 12 hours, then go and work another 28 hour shift, and he had time to sit down and play every game he let his kids play, from beginning to end. He actually played through red alert 2 and okayed it, but disliked yuri’s revenge due to the grinder factory in it. If he can do it, parents can at least peek over their kid’s shoulders every once in awhile, or read a review site.

    Why not start up a site that shows the relevant material to what earned the game a more restrictive rating from the ESRB for parental monitoring? There’s a solution right there! I’m positive if someone approached google/youtube with this they’d be ecstatic to have their brand name attached to it.

     

    That was longer than I intended. I wonder how many grammar errors I made. *Wave* On to different articles.

  40. sqlrob says:

    "Let" and "Needs to be codified in law" are two completely different things

    There’s a high bar for speech regulation, and it hasn’t been met yet for video games or movies.

  41. Andrew Eisen says:

    As the poster above me said, aren’t the content descriptors enough to differentiate the different "levels" of an M rating?

     

    Andrew Eisen

  42. Wolvenmoon says:

    Lemme put it this way…

    They are not playing through the games, our "M" rating is an amalgation of the movie industry’s upper end of PG-13, R, and NC-17 ratings in how its used, and I don’t like anything the ESA has a hand in. That’s actually ordered from biggest to smallest reason. =P

    If they made a distinction between our more violent "PG-13" games, our "R" games, and our "NC-17" games, I’d have a lot less of an issue with them and probably wouldn’t care.

    Where they’ve screwed up in my opinion is not in misrating games into wrong catagories, but leaving out a catagory altogether.

  43. Andrew Eisen says:

    Why so much mistrust?  By my count there have only ever been three mistakes:

    GTA: San Andreas – The rating should not have changed from M to AO because the hot coffee content was inline with the original rating.

    Oblivion – Should have been rated M in the first place.  Not sure what happened here.  The ESRB says Bethesda didn’t disclose everything, Bethesda says it did.

    Forsaken 64 – Should have been T.  There is nothing in that game that merits an M.

    That’s only 3 boo-boos out of the thousands and thousands of rated games.  Pretty good track record if you ask me.  Even so, the ESRB is constantly making improvements to its methodology.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  44. Wolvenmoon says:

    So they aren’t really rating the game, but what ever the developer feels like submitting. This isn’t that much different from the self rating system, except that the developers can’t hide huge amounts of content.

    —reads the last paragraph carefully—

    *Sarcastically* So, how much do you have to pay to make sure you aren’t ‘hand picked’ or ‘randomly selected’?

    Seriously though, why in the world aren’t they reviewing every game, with anything more than an obvious E 3 and up, in the game’s entirety?

  45. Andrew Eisen says:

    "I will, however, concede that if the ESRB published its testing methodology that I wouldn’t mind it as much."

    It’s right here.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  46. Monte says:

     If i recall, the esrb does have penalties for leaving out details in the submissions. As in i think their is kind of a contractual agreement or something that requires the developers to submit all the material of the game that would have an influence on the rating… certain items pass under the radar though since even the developer did not think it needed to submit the content; GTA for example, the content had been blocked and would not be seen in the normal game play and thus rockstar did not feel it needed to tell the ESRB about it as ESRB has never asked for that kind of stuff thinkign about how it might be unlocked through modding

    Would you have the ESRB play the games instead? how much would you have them play? Do you have any idea how long it would take to rate a game if they had to look through every tiny corner of the game in the off chance they might miss something. Play through only part of the game and you might miss something important; play all the way through and you could takes weeks or even months to rate the game. Think of RPG’s that have minimal playing times of like 70 hours, or games that might utilize randomly generated levels and thus could never been 100% explored. Can you imagine taking a game like GTA and having to take Niko to explore every tiny corner of the city in the off chance their is something AO rated hidden in a corner somewhere? When it comes down to it, no amount of playing through the game would have allowed the ESRB to for see stuff like the GTA and oblivion modding; grant it, they could have spotted it if you asked them to examine every single line of code… but i can only imagine how long the code would be for games like that and it too would take a very long time to look through

    In essence, because of how long games can be, and because playing only part way through a game can result in missing something important, the method of having the developers submit the content is the most efficient and thus far, aside from just a scant few muck ups, it’s a system that has worked. Developers have little reason to lie about content of their games to try and get a lower rating as they know from the GTA fiasco that they will not get away with it anyway…

  47. hayabusa75 says:

    The M-rated games are further distinguished through the content descriptors, just as R-rated comedies and R-rated action flicks have different descriptors.  I could see your point if the M rating was all people have to work with, but that’s not the case at all.

    Also, it’s logistically impossible for the ESRB raters to play every game through to its entirety.  This has been discussed many times over on this site, but unfortunately I have to go to work now, so maybe someone else (Andrew, maybe?) can summarize the issue for me.

    "There is no sin except stupidity." – Oscar Wilde

  48. Wolvenmoon says:

    @hayabusa75

    While it isn’t proof of bias, it’s proof of incompetance. The oblivion ratings change. While I can anecdotally say it’s because of the mod that unlocked the topless female texture, it was because they hadn’t gone through the game.

    Who else would do it? I wouldn’t want our government to do it at all. I will, however, concede that if the ESRB published its testing methodology that I wouldn’t mind it as much. If they went as far as to take video of their gameplay and post up snippets that affected the rating, I wouldn’t mind as much. However, the oblivion fiasco is proof that they aren’t playing through all the games they receive for rating, and thusly are not doing their job of giving even handed ratings.

    I believe I saw an article stating the ESRB rates games based on developer submissions of the content, instead of the actual end product itself, and that’s why they had the trouble with oblivion.

    The first part of my post was mainly about unmoderated internet access. Young teenagers and children really lack the judgement they need to safely access the internet without parental supervision, and I don’t mean ‘sitting over the shoulder’, I mean no internet access in the bedroom, etc.

    The adult swim comment came to mind thinking specifically of the shows ‘dethklok’ and ‘superjail’. That was a bit too absolute a comment, I’ll admit that.

  49. Wolvenmoon says:

    Would you show a twelve year old a movie where a man hired a prostitute, banged her in his car, then shot her and took his money back?

    How about letting a 12 year old watch ‘The Ring’?

    "But people are different! 5% of 12 year olds may be ready for this type of content."

    If it was that 5% being exposed, it would be fine.

     

    Really I don’t care what content is in games, if a game wants to include hardcore pornography then more power to it, but it sure as hell shouldn’t be rated "M" along with a game rated such because it drops F-bombs. Let me clarify: AO isn’t used because it would keep the game from being sold on most major platforms. The ESRB was founded by the ESA, and I believe they still have bias for ESA member companies.

  50. sqlrob says:

    And speaking of proof, what about the proof for

    "The simple fact of the matter is no child should be exposed to games in series like GTA, F.E.A.R., and manhunt 2."

  51. Andrew Eisen says:

    I’d say hetero porn objectifies both men and women (mostly men).  But that’s the point (damn near the definition) of a lot of porn.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  52. Andrew Eisen says:

    Son of a bitch.  I had an entire response typed out and my browser refreshed and cleared it.  I’m not retyping everything but I’ll sum up:

    Of the actual studies the conclusions are things like:

    • Violent people may watch violent pornography and are more likely to rape.
    • Watching pornography makes you think about sex.
    • Conservative attitudes about Pornography go hand in hand with Conservative attitudes about women’s roles and gender equality.

    Browsing sites like the APA, I’m finding that there is little actual research and what is there is either inconclusive or merely correlational (both the positive and negative effects).  Interestingly, most of the studies have conclusions that could be taken as a positive or a negative (depending on who you ask) such as:

    In one study surveying 471 Dutch teens ages 13 to 18, the researchers found that the more often young people sought out online porn, the more likely they were to have a "recreational" attitude toward sex—specifically, to view sex as a purely physical function like eating or drinking

    or

    In the study, reported in the December 2006 Journal of Communication (Vol. 56, No. 4, pages 639–660), the team also found a relationship between porn use and the feeling that it wasn’t necessary to have affection for people to have sex with them.

    The rest of the stuff in your Google search consists of anecdotal evidence of specific people with specific problems manifesting themselves as addictions to porn or a discomfort with their partner’s porn viewing habits.  Neither seems to be caused by the porn.  Instead, porn seems to be merely a symptom of another problem.

    It’s the same with all the anecdotal evidence levied at video games for causing relationship problems.  Have some people killed their social relationships by devoting all their resources to gaming?  Yep.  Is the game causing them to do that?  No.

    From what I’m reading, blaming porn for relationship difficulties is as silly as blaming children, money, or a combination of barking dogs and video games.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  53. Andrew Eisen says:

    "At the very least it messes with their expectations in future relationships."

    Only if porn is the only form of sexual education the child has ever had.  Same with violent fantasy (movies, games, books, stories, play).

     

    Andrew Eisen

  54. Wolvenmoon says:

    There’s enough political obfuscation on the subject, but if you’d like to look up studies on the effects of pornography on adults, you may. However, our laws protect minors from these kinds of studies, and make it illegal to conduct them in a controlled way.

    At the very least it messes with their expectations in future relationships.

    Anyway, I can’t remember what it’s called exactly. The exposure to violence at a young age where the inhibitions to commiting it in real life are not yet present (I’m talking <10 here, and if you read this site you know very well that 6 year olds have played GTA..though since the kid didn’t die ((whew))the story was kind of funny) and they imitate what they see.

  55. Andrew Eisen says:

    "The same reason you don’t expose a child to hardcore pornography is the same reason you don’t let them watch a man’s head get blown into giblets."

    And that reason is?

     

    Andrew Eisen

  56. Wolvenmoon says:

    The same reason you don’t expose a child to hardcore pornography is the same reason you don’t let them watch a man’s head get blown into giblets. That’s the absolute reason. While I’m not saying that this is an apples to apples comparison, I believe it fits.

    Man, I don’t even need to start citing examples where parents/adults honestly believed that what they were doing with/for their children was right.

  57. David says:

    Same thing could be said for films, though.  Films like Glory are in the same category as the Saw movies.  It’s a flaw inherent in simplified ratings systems like the ESRB and MPAA efforts.

  58. Wolvenmoon says:

    My main beef with the current system is games like crysis are in the same ratings catagory as games like manhunt 2.

    It’s stupid on both ends, but my main concern is the T, M, and AO ratings.

  59. Father Time says:

    And even if the kids somehow get ahold of the games the parents can still set parental controls on the consoles so that Johnny can’t play anything M rated. They have them this gen and they had them last gen (I think).

    —————————————————-

    Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it’s over they have the same positions they started in.

  60. TK n Happy Ness says:

    "While I am deeply disappointed in today’s ruling, we should not stop our efforts to assist parents in keeping these harmful video games out of the hands of children."

    The parents are the ones to blame for kids under 17 getting M rated games. The kids can’t buy the games themselves, so they’ll bitch and moan to their parents until they give in. I bought my first M rated game back in 2000, and was 19 at the time.

    When Jack Thompson runs his mouth, does anyone really care what he has to say anymore?

  61. Cpt. Wayner says:

       From the way you are talking, it seems that you see the ESRB ratings more as rules rather than guidelines. What is wrong with someone under 17 haveing an M rated game? Ok I’m not saying for small children, but what about teenagers?

       The appropiateness of a game for anyone should be based on the peron in question’s maturity level. I beleive that the average person reaches a respectable maturity level around 13-15. That is why I think that there is nothing wrong with someone 13-17 playing, owning, or even buying an M rated game, as long as they understand what is/ isn’t acceptable in real life. I meet young people all the time on Xbox live, does that mean that they will be worse people because of it? NO!

       What difference does a year make? I admit, I’m most likely a lttle abnormal, I started playing Doom with my uncle at 4 😉 He dam near lost his hearing when my mom found out, but that’s just a mother’s protective side kicking in. I haven’t killed anyone so maybe all the psychologists may be a little off in their analysis, oh wait we all know that…

  62. hayabusa75 says:

    Passing the new budget is good news, to be sure.  I think I was thinking more along the lines of the financial state of CA in general.  Until that deficit is actually gone, however, I’m going to hold off on the ticker tape parade.

    "There is no sin except stupidity." – Oscar Wilde

  63. Wolvenmoon says:

    If the parents are lazy, they need to get moving.

    If the parents are stressed, they’re normal! Congrats.

    If the parents are trying to control said child, then take the damn privelage away.

    If the parents are in a hurry, they need to slow down enough to consider if they have the time to deal with monitoring their kids.

    If the parents are themselves a gamer, they should already know how to use parental controls or multiple users on an operating system.

  64. bobofbobonia says:

    well, this would imply that parents arent:

    lazy

    stressed

    trying to control said child

    in a hurry

    or themselves a gamer (kid went through thier ‘M’ rated stash)

  65. Wolvenmoon says:

    Only if you have a huge shitload of money, pardon my french. Tuition at the ‘cheap’ private school here in oklahoma-where the cost of living is near lowest in the nation-is close to 10,000 dollars a semester for kindergarten to fifth grade.

    The thing about it is you’re STILL paying for public schools. If the U.S. K-12 public school system was set up for education instead of cushy jobs, then it’d be better. Education should not be mandatory-GOOD education should be mandatory.

    (An example of public schools being done right : http://www.newsweek.com/id/154901 short and sweet : Crazy lady says "Good teachers can get 100K or more if they give up job security and are teaching students well.")

     

    Edit:More of a response to the first post than I anticipated, I’m not going to be able to reply to everyone. Before you guys get too pissed off at me, remember that I am a gamer, and I’m moderate politically. XD;

  66. Andrew Eisen says:

    Exactly my point.  It’s just as absurd a leap as comparing video games to drugs and alcohol.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  67. Adrian Lopez says:

    "To be fair, I believe all he’s saying is that there is a precedent to legally treat children differently from adults …"

    Except that such been the case long since before Roper v. Simmons. Just take a look at pornography laws and how the courts distinguish between what’s obscene and illegal, and what’s harmful to minors and can’t be sold to kids but is legal for adults.

    That, at least, would be a relevant example, since it concerns speech (pornography) rather than capital punishment. Of course, the fact that the courts have struck down laws that aim to set a "harmful to minors" standard for violent video games keeps Yee from employing such an analogy.

  68. Andrew Eisen says:

    To be fair, I believe all he’s saying is that there is a precedent to legally treat children differently from adults and in the most basic sense, that’s true.

    But it’s an enormous jump from "you can’t put kids to death because they’re kids" to "we can legislate game sales to minors because they’re kids."

     

    Andrew Eisen

  69. hayabusa75 says:

    Would you like to provide proof, and I mean real proof of the ESRB’s bias?  Cite specifics, please.

    It also always cracks me up when people say we need a ratings system not funded by the industry.  First off, the ESRB overall has a very positive public perception.  Most parents and many politicians as well find it to be quite helpful.  Second, if the industry doesn’t fund it, what are your options?  The government?  Yeah, right.  So, an independent body, then.  Ok, find me some disinterested third party willing to pay for the operating costs out of his/her own pocket for something they don’t even care about, and we’ll discuss it.

    I also find it interesting how the 2nd half of your post espouses parental responsibility but the first half makes an unequivocal age cutoff at 14 for edgy content.

    "There is no sin except stupidity." – Oscar Wilde

  70. sqlrob says:

    What is broken about the current system? If anything it’s *too* conservative.

    Chess with "Mild Fantasy Violence"? 

  71. Wormdundee says:

     I’m going to have to disagree with your first 3 paragraphs. Your use of absolutism is somewhat disconcerting. Those same sentiments are what drives politicians to try and pass these sorts of laws. It also seems to be at odds with your statements in the latter half of your post.

    In my opinion there is no ‘simple fact of the matter’ in regards to what games children should be allowed to play. It should completely be in the hands of the parents. If they think their 12 year old son can handle playing GTA, then that’s their decision. Of course, they could end up being wrong, but them’s the breaks.

  72. Zen says:

    I disagree with the notion that consoles should be dropped completely simply because they have network connections built in and violent games that can be played on them.  The Wii and PS3 have full browsers on them and all three systems, in one manner or another, have either video chat, voice chat, or both.  But the main thing is that, as a parent, you can easily password lock the console to control what happens with it.  You can block the internet access on the Wii and PS3 or lock them behind passwords.  You can create "child" accounts that can have open gameplay options online for the 360..but not allow chat, video, purchases…even control who can and not not be friends with this person.  My son can play any of my consoles at home and I don’t have to worry.  Not because these things are implemented…but simply because I took the time to TEACH AND TALK TO MY CHILDREN about the games and what is ok…or not…to play.  He can choose his own games easily by weeding out what is out of his rating range by himself, then me and my wife can make the final decision from there. 

    And as far as him playing online, I choose some friends and family of mine that he is allowed to play with for games like Bomberman Live and such, but I don’t let him have voice chat or camera access.  Problem solved.  Any friend that I allow to show up on his list is aware of his limitations as well.

    It’s easier to lock down a system, or teach someone how to do it, than it is to lock down PC’s for some people. 

    Zen a.k.a. Jeremy Powers
    Panama City, Fl.
    http://www.ZensPath.com

  73. EvilTikiMan says:


    The current ratings system could be worse. It could revert back to the old method in which companies that made games rated their own products. Eventually that was dropped in favor of a less bias one, that wasn’t owned by the developers and was used by all companies. That one eventually became the ESRB. The current system works just fine, particularly since it is not strictly mandatory. But you are right in that parents need to be involved with their children.

    Though personally I think it is downright silly that parents would need to rely on even that to figure out what’s in a game. Most of the time you can guess quite accurately whats going to be in the game by examining the game box (Title,cover art, and description).

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Responsibility: Something that everyone has, but no one seems to want when something goes wrong. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  74. Krono says:

    The public schools that are mandatory and unavoidable

    Technically speaking it’s schooling that’s mandatory and unavoidable. Going to private school is still an option if you don’t mind paying more.

    -Gray17

  75. Wolvenmoon says:

    The simple fact of the matter is no child should be exposed to games in series like GTA, F.E.A.R., and manhunt 2.

    Nor should any child under the age of 14 be allowed unsupervised internet access, ever. It’s a bad idea.

    No one under the age of 14 should be allowed to watch adult swim on cartoon network, either. But they do, kids get into it.

    What’s the answer? Well, yes the industry needs a worikng, unbiased ratings system that isn’t linked to the ESA or a similar company, and there needs to be enforcement (Red barcodes on the games in stores that require ID, etc, but only for ‘hard’ M ratings)

    The real answer is the parents need to get the hell off their asses and monitor their kids. If they don’t want their kids getting into violent games, they need to password protect their computers and themselves install the games, and put the kids on a basic account.

    If they don’t want them into violent console games, avoid the xbox 360 and PS3 entirely if they’re lazy, or actually monitor the consoles. These consoles are internet devices that allow chat! Treat them like a computer, the same dangers on a PC’s internet are present on these consoles, and there’s less control over access!

    Lastly, the government needs to gtfo of raising our children. The public schools that are mandatory and unavoidable, that your taxes pay for, have less than a 100% literacy rate on children with no cognitive disabilities, I think that says enough about it.

    Our government has no place in raising this nation’s children, the public school system usurps this power and abuses the children it gets its claws into. Anyone not destined to a blue collar job is underserved by it. What do you think we’ll have if they start filtering content?

  76. mdo7 says:

    Take that sir,

     

    But hey the good news is that the first amendment triamph and at least the court shows common sense that violent are not created by video game.  Also, be proud that California is out of the budget crisis (I don’t know for how long).

  77. Neeneko says:

    On the flip side, the latest generation has been unusal in it’s acceptance of new things and cultures.  Unlike previous generations (in general) we grew up with instant access to information from around the world and constant exposure to a large varaity of viewpoints and cultures.

    While we can’t escape human behavior as we age, our unique youth may very well cause a differnt outcome.

  78. bobofbobonia says:

    damnant quod non intelligunt

    lawyers are supposed to learn latin (most of the legal jargin is IN latin), but that doesnt mean even half of them can read that. which means they have NO IDEA what theyre talking about.

     

     

    P.S. it roughly means "they condemn what they dont know", its from vergil.

  79. Geoff says:

    Sadly, you’re probably correct.  As much as I would like to think I won’t become a knee-jerk fool towards new things, who can really say in about 30 years?

    Now get off my lawn!  (Gotta practice.)

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  80. EvilTikiMan says:

    The funny thing is we can already start wielding some power by rallying together and telling them what we want. If the gamers In Cally all signed a petition for them to drop this nonsense while spreading the word, they will likely hesitate in their actions. It is dangerous to ignore a document or public statement from hundreds of thousands of people, particularly registered voters.

    Also the minimum age for a congressman is 25, and a senator 30. The average gamer is between 20 and 30 last time i checked. Heck give me 3 more years and I might just aim for being a Congressman myself since I am sick of these old farts who have been around since my father was in His 20s.

     

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Responsibility: Something that everyone has, but no one seems to want when something goes wrong. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  81. Neeneko says:

    He is probably hoping that people go ‘oh! he sited a supream court case! he must know what he is talking about!’ rather then actually taking the 20 seconds to look up what the case involved.

    That or he is suggesting that allowing children to get ahold of violent video games is equivelent to sentancing them to death.

  82. Andrew Eisen says:

    "In fact, the high court recently agreed, in Roper v. Simmons (2005), that we need to treat children differently in the eyes of the law due to brain development."

    That is a ridiculously tenuous link, Yee.  Roper v. Simmons only says you can’t put kids to death because of the Eighth Amendment and the fact that kids are kids.  It doesn’t cite particular studies and it certainly doesn’t absolve kids of responsibility.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  83. Werrick says:

    You’d think anyone with a degree in psychology would have taken the first step of establishing whether certain video games are or aren’t actually harmful before attempting to save the children from them.

    Of course, he didn’t… here merely assumed and used circumstantial and largely correlative evidence to "prove" a causative influence, but that’s okay because others have done this research for him. Of course… he still refuses to actually LISTEN to the evidence in favour of his own sophistry.

    This guy’s a child psychologist? Yah… no wonder he switched to politics.

  84. gaspar says:

    Idiot. This is not about kids. Its about publishers. You cant violate the rights of publishers because kids are different than adults. People who try to bend the constitution to their own will will stop at nothing to decieve and twist the truth.

  85. Geoff says:

    You and me both brother.  Can’t wait for this older generation to get the fuck out of power so we don’t have to worry about these technophobes trying to legislate things they don’t understand or at least don’t care to understand.

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

  86. Zerodash says:

    Good. Get this issue to the Supreme Court so we can get games protected under the First Amendment ONCE AND FOR ALL.

    I’m so tired of this crap…

  87. Geoff says:

    Not surprising, but it only makes Yee look even more idiotic than before.  Just doesn’t know when to throw in the towel, does he?

     

    Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

Comments are closed.