Australian Watchdog Group Slams House of the Dead: Overkill

An Australian parents’ group is protesting the MA15+ rating assigned to Wii zombie shooter House of the Dead: Overkill.

As reported by the Melbourne Herald-Sun, Pro Family Perspective director Angela Conway is leading the charge against HOTD:O. The game recently set a Guinness Book record for profanity. Said Conway:

The gaming industry has been mischievously misrepresenting the classification system on this issue. I feel very distressed that a large number of teenagers and adults would play this game and soak up this amount of sexually aggressive violence and aggressively violent language.

We need to draw a deep breath and look at the research, which will show a need to scale back this level of violence.

 

Given the increasing amount of knowledge now available of the effects of exposure to intense levels of violence on the adolescent brain, we should be reviewing the level of violence the MA15+ classification now allows.

Conway also called for additional research into the impact of violent games on players. Last year, Conway claimed that violent games would turn troubled kids into "lethal killers."

Sega spokesman Vispi Bhopti defended HOTD:O, however:

House of the Dead: Overkill has been rated as suitable for people over 15. It is not an R-rated game. The swearing in it is very much stylised so it matches the Grindhouse cinema style made famous by director Quentin Tarantino.

In playing the game, players attack zombies or humanoid characters but never humans. This is an important distinction that the classification board makes when it gives a rating.

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176 comments

  1. ZippyDSMlee says:

    I can’t recall the locolized JP horror based PS2 game but it had rape in it if just aluded, it liek violince is jsut a story element.

     


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  2. NovaBlack says:

    In fact, just look at history and just how many THOUSANDS more have died due to religious wars than have died from being killed by someone who can be causally proven to have ‘trained’ on a video game.

    So sage you want to ban religion?

    If not.. why not? Because you are entitled to freedom of expression?.. wow.. pot… kettle.

  3. NovaBlack says:

    f*cking hell!

    We must warn the populace!!

    THE TURTLES ARE COMING!! THE TURTLES ARE COMING!! TO ARMS!!

    Only a mass extermination of all birds , turtles , and any as yet undiscovered bird/turtle hybrids can save us…

     

    ugh… but what do we kill them with.. we banned everything except these giant cotton wool suits… DAMMIT.

     

  4. NovaBlack says:

    well judging by the fact that he/she has never replied to a single post in the forum that raises points to show how flawed their logic is, and instead just keeps posting the same thing again at the end of the thread, ignoring all the counterpoints, it sounds an AWFUL lot like JT.

    ITs like he/she is banging their head against a brick wall repeatedly after being told not to, that it will physically damage them, and shouting ‘See SEE! IT doesnt  damage me at all! LLOK *gurgle* LHHOOK *bashes a tooth out* *ththloooook! *looks up with giant black eye*.. then garbles and falls to the floor.

  5. JustChris says:

    They use junk science all the time for these defenses. Trying to form a link between a relatively uncommon activity (murder) with an activity that goes on in many people’s homes ever day (gaming).

    GameSnooper

  6. Father Time says:

    Insane people can be set off by anything

    There was a woman who drowned her kids because she thought a spider was a message from God. (Can’t find the link but I think someone here has it).

    Speaking of which a lot more people have killed others because of being insanely religious (and probably other factors) then some random gamers have. In fact some of the more extreme ones are a national security threat.

    If one death is unacceptable should we then ban religion?

    My answer is a concrete no (and I’m not religious).

    It’s unfair to those who don’t plan on killing others, it’s an infringement on freedoms I think we should have, and it won’t guarantee an unstable individual will be set off to kill.

    —————————————————-

    Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it’s over they have the same positions they started in.

  7. GRIZZAM PRIME says:

    People are incredibly innovative, for better or worse, and can use any knowledge (even that which would normally be used to help people) to hurt and kill. They’ve been able to obtain these skills since before there was a massive entertainment industry, and they’ll be able to do so after it’s long gone.

    It’s a waste of time trying to whipe things out on the fear that people could learn to hurt people. It would be better instead to focus on teaching them to be responsible, and making them understand the consequences of their actions, as the majority of citizens have learned.

    Also, you acknowledge that this is a small percentage of people. Every incedent of that nature is tragic, but instead of attempting to get rid of the triggers, why not have our various governments devote more time, money, and resources to researching more powerful and successful forms of treatment for the various mental instabilities and illnesses that make such people psychologically vulnerable? That way they’d have a better quality of life as well, ey?

    "Any game that supports violence, rape, or homosexuality, especially to minors, should be banned in my oppinion."

    In all of the games that I’ve played, I’ve never seen violence "supported" as much as being portrayed as a necassary act in far less than ideal circumstances. Not to mention that wether an act of violence is morally right or wrong is wholly dependant under the circumstances under which it occurs, such as self defense versus murder or assault. As for rape, I’ve never even heard of games that portray rape at all, aside from "Custer’s Revenge" and "Rapelay", both of which suck tremendously, and neither are available in retail outside of Japan (regarding Rapelay).

    Homosexuality is relative in terms of morals and ethics. Some, predominately religious groups and followers, view it as evil and sinful, whereas others simply view it as a different lifestyle. It is up to individual parents to decide which view they wish to instill in their children.

     

     

  8. Shadow D. Darkman says:

    Thank you, Captain Obvious. That has already been established.

    ——————————————————————————

  9. Nekowolf says:

    Live turtles! Stories tell of a Greek mathematician or philosopher who died when a turtle (most likely that fell out of the talons of a bird of prey) landed on his head.

  10. Nekowolf says:

    Uh, maybe…Ah, maybe by killing them, they don’t "die" but rather, turn undead. That could be consider as a non-lethal killing maybe?

  11. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Movies teach people how firearms work as well as video games dose not to mention training and hunting videos that teach you how to operate and maintain the tools fo the trade.

    The problem is like the bible its far more a tool than anything else, a pistol has 2 or 4 general moving parts that are universal, if one plays darts or paint ball or air soft or BB/pellet or just a nerf foam dart guns one can grasp the finer points of  of point and shoot, of coarse a gun is heavier and the recoil is a bitch if you work out a little this can be minimized.

    What I am getting at most firearms are easy to use because they are perfected tools and all it takes is someone willing to train their body a bit and learn basic projectrory with a toy gun of some kind. The trouble is so life is both figuratively and literately dangerous to us so lets skip all this fou moralistic brown nosing and ban life!

    As for the bible its abused constantly and yet is rarely picked on(reasonably) because its somehow a fundamental right, as is most things in life.

     


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  12. mdo7 says:

     

    Also,

    Law of physics and real life application does not apply to video game-I notice most of the video game does not follow the law of physics.  Halo‘s sniping I notice does not give you the same recoil (anybody knows Newton’s third law) as the real sniper rifle does, a high power sniper rifle can knock you off balance if you don’t handle the rifle properly. Also the bullets goes in a straight path, bullets does not do that good in real life.  Even in real life, when you have a bad guy in your scope, you could still miss because gravity, obstacle, or sudden movement can alter the bullet’s path.  Do most video game developers wants to make the game so almost realistic that it should follow all of physic’s law?  I do not think so.  Also if you play Mirror’s Edge, you can’t jump across the building because gravity can come into play, also let’s not forget about mass and weight.  You tried that, you’ll fall and die (the only difference is that you don’t get a "try again" menu when you die)  No way you can leap like in Super Marios Bros game

    I like to point these out also:

    -ever play LA machineguns at the arcade and other rail-shooting games.  LA Machineguns have 1 flaws, rapid fire machineguns gets hot when you shoot for a long time.  That’s why you see people shooting machineguns in short bursts in real life unlike just fire constantly with no pause like in a video game.  Also, taking down a missiles and rockets with a machineguns is just impossible, they’re just so fast and they also have a hard skin, bullets can’t penetrate those in real life and missiles/rockets are just so fast by the time you aim the machineguns at them, you’re dead (in real life).  That’s why we have anti-missile rockets like you see those in military videos, the armed forces knows that machineguns are not capable of taking down a rockets, they know video game ain’t real life simulators.

    -FPS and 3rd person shooters, Ok we see how guns shoot and how to reload them.  Does video game teach you how to turn off the safety on that gun?? Does video game teach you how to unjam your gun (America’s Army is the only exception)??  Does video game teach you what kind of bullet does your gun need? You can just put a AK-47 bullet into a shotgun or a 9mm bullets in a .357 revolvers.  Those would not work or misfire killing you (a great 1000 ways to die).  Does video game teach you how to do a tactical cover (like Gears of War, Uncharted, Wanted: weapon of fate)properly?? Here’s the problem with taking cover, you won’t be able to see what the enemy is doing in real life, anything can change within seconds,minutes.  The enemy could have outflank you if you’re taking cover.  Did you know a grenade can blow up after 10 seconds the pin is pulled (anybody watch Manswers on Spike TV??)?  Don’t even think about blind-fire.  you’ll just be wasting bullets at no one instead of your enemies in the battlefield.  So if you’re taking cover and a grenade is near your feet, kiss your ass goodbye.  That’s why in armed force, they always tell you not to take cover for too long, anything can change in a battlefield.

    That’s the flaws with video game and real life.                

  13. ZippyDSMlee says:

    Religion desensitizes people with greater effect than general fiction, mainly because general fiction is mostly consumed by people that take it figuratively were as religoin is taken literately resulting in far more damage to society.

    /lulzy statement.

     


    Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


    http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com

  14. DarkSaber says:

    HI DEROVIUS!

    Been a long time, did you think we’d forgot this was your imaginary friend or something?

    ————————————————–

    I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

  15. Shoehorn Oplenty says:

    What is the difference between the German school shooter with access to guns and the millions of people who play Far Cry or Counterstrike with access to guns every day?

    Answer: The german shooter was mentally or psychologically damaged. He was not a normal person, but instead had issues with rejection and anger.

    Let us eliminate the common denominators here. Access to guns? That’s out, becuase 100s of people have them, yet don’t go and shoot up schools. Playing FPS games? Again, MILLIONS of people do it, yet only a tiny, tiny, tiny, insignificant fraction of those people go on to become spree shooters. So it’s not games.

    So what is left once the common denominators are removed? That’s right, the mental instability. there’s your culprit, not video games.

    It’s funny that games are blamed for these mass shootings when i would say that throughout history more spree shooters have been non-gamers than not.

    Charles Whitman in 1966 took it upon himself to climb a tower and begin shooting at random people, what fps game did he train on? That’s right, they weren’t invented yet. What did he have in common with the German shooter? You’ve guessed it, mental instability.

    I guarantee you, if you were to take every single spree killer in history, the only common denominator to all cases would be some kind of mental instability.

    Now, maybe I’m totally off-base here, but wouldn’t it be more useful to go after what appears to me to be the actual causes of these horrific murders (ie. mentally unstable/psychotic people with access to firearms and a grudge)? Of course not! What looks better to politicians, telling parents that they will set up stundent counselling and monitoring to check that their darling child isn’t a psychopath, or that they will go after teh evil video games that are corrupting the children, won’t someone think of the children!

    Mental health is a difficult and complicated issue that would require a lot of work in order to put some sort of system in place that monitors anyone who shows tendencies that are similar to those displayed by spree killers. Much easier to just scapegoat a new technology that parents don’t understand!

  16. Shadow D. Darkman says:

    "Whadduya know, you do follow JTs ideals."

    In that case, I wonder if he thinks that people ignoring him is a sign that he wins. If he does, then he is EXACTLY like JT.

    ——————————————————————————

  17. Shadow D. Darkman says:

    Huh… Video games train people in certain fields, eh? In that case, I should buy a baseball game and concentrate on playing first base, so I can get back to playing for real.

    [/sarcasm]

    Well said, Erik.

    ——————————————————————————

  18. mdo7 says:

     

    Let me ask you this, Sage.  What made serial killers like Jack The Ripper, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dalhmers, Dennis Rader (the BTK killer), Gary Ridgeway (Green River Killer), and David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) killed people.  They didn’t need video game to get it.  Nope, they either had psychological problem or they were born a sociopath.  

    God. there were school shooting even before violent video game were invented.  Look at these event:

    Bath Massacre, 1927-Andrew Kehoe killed his wife, blew up Bath Elementary School (along with 44 students) and killed himself.  what video game did he play? Bioshock? Mercenaries 2? Farcry 2?  Nope none of these, he had financial debt (video game did not even exist back then, how can video game made this guy blow up school and killed many kids).  Conclusion: Blame it on the money, as a matter of fact ban money, they are the root of greed and evil. You know what I blame money for everything, even the financial Crisis.  Ban it, and we will live more happily after.

    Poe Elementary School attack, Sept 1959-Paul Harold Ogernon was the perpertraitor of this shooting which end up killing 6 people including himself. He was a ex-convict who couldn’t get his son enrolled into that elementary school, and he went ‘Postal’ on the school.  Video game was not behind this. Conclusion: The guy is a ex-convict, what do you expect??

    Cleveland Elementary School schooting, Jan 1979-Brenda Ann Spencer, 16 years old shot up the school for no reason which ended up with 2 dead, 6 injured.  What FPS game did she play? Oh wait a minute, FPS games wasn’t invented until the 1990’s hence she can’t be "trained" on video game.  But however, her motive and quote "I hate Mondays".  Conclusion: The Monday is to be blame.

    Portland, Connecticut, Dec 1985-13-year old student Floyd Warmsley shot and killed a janitor, injured the principal, as well as a school secretary and held a student hostage with a rifle at Portland Junior High School after he had been suspended for refusing to take off his hat while in school. He was arrested after his father convinced him to surrender. (from Wikipedia)  So what video game made him do it?  Conclusion: the hat was tainted with pure evil and made him shoot up the school.

    Montana, Dec 1986-14 year old Kristopher Hans, angry over a failing grade, shoots and kills a substitute teacher for a French classroom, and then later wounded a vice principal and two students.  Conclusion: I blame the grading system, it can drive a person over the edge.

     

    There you go, if video game create school shooting, how come there were school shooting even exist before First Person Shooter/violent video game were invented.  Got any explanation, Sage???

  19. Shoehorn Oplenty says:

    Swearing like a sailor is not harmful, but I don’t like to see kids going around with their mouths full of obscenities.

    It’s a matter of personal responsibility. Some parents don’t mind their kids swearing, I do.

    Some parents don’t want their kid seeing violent entertainment. I myself will only let my son play/view these games when I judge that he is old enough. Even if he were to play/view it, it would not cause any harm, but I retain my parental choice.

  20. nightwng2000 says:

    You seem to have a lack of comprehension of your own writing and thoughts.

    "Thing is i’m NOT trying to take your rights away."

    "That’s why I think anything violent should be banned."

    The moment you step from "I don’t want to participate in x or allow my own children to participate in x" to "I don’t want OTHERS to participate in x or allow OTHER people’s children to participate in x", then you ARE attempting to deny other individuals and Parents their Rights.

    It is an unproven argument that the existance of anything not directly associated with a violent act (reading a book, watching the news, preaching bigotry and hate as a foundation of a religious belief, playing a game of ANY kind, listening to music, having public debates, etc) WILL lead to a violent act.

    To throw up the use of potential victims of ANY act as a justification to deny other individuals, who have absolutely NOTHING to do with a violent act, past, present, or future, is just another form of smoke screen and deception and I seriously question the morality of any individual who argues that they are trying to do what is best for others by using lies and/or deceit to protect others.

    It would no more be logical to argue that GTA caused Devin Moore to commit murder than arguing that if you find a Bible in the home of someone who assaults a homosexual individual, then it must be Christianity’s fault and we must set out to protect people from future violence caused by religion.  Whether it had no effect on the individual, a tiny amount, or a large amount of a an effect on the individual, that effect is limited to that individual and cannot be predicted later in regards to other individuals because, obviously, we are individuals and react differently based on the complexity that is us.  The individual alone is responsible for their actions. 

    Nightwng2000

    NW2K Software

    Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

  21. NovaBlack says:

    what about fabric allergies?

    the walls of the padded cell could kill you.

    Hell the only way to protect everyone is just to all kill ourselves so nobody can die. *twitches*

  22. NovaBlack says:

    one death isnt acceptable?

    you think one death is justification to ban something?

    well thats crazy logic.

    we would have to ban near EVERYTHING if one death was a justification. Cars, clothes, kitchen utensils, bricks, wood, shoes, alcohol, medicine, headache pills, shellfish, dairy products.

    And the funny thing is, those things have PROVEN CAUSAL links. Yet you dont think we should ban those… but games, with a hotly debated, largely ridiculed politically motivated link (that is a corellation at best) you think we should? Despite there not being ONE case where a game has been CAUSALLY linked to someones death?

     

    wow..

     

  23. Freyar says:

    Death happens, it’s regrettable, and it’s unacceptable at the hands of other people. But, as a citizen of the United States, I myself take the measures required to protect myself.  Defense training with firearms, I intend to get a CCW (Concealed Carry Permit) as soon as I am able, and yes, I even intend to carry it.

    We can’t protect everyone. Society is based on a set of agreements, but like any agreements, we can’t expect everyone to follow them 100% of the time.  I may sound cold and heartless but the world is not a safe place, and never has been.

    A police state itself is what scares the hell out of me. It’s why I won’t go to Europe. It’s why I won’t agree with Scientology.  Free will and choices are what allow people to be people, rather than a single entity.  Culture, ideas, and so on are important to shift around through not only books or movies, but through games as well.

    You have yet to respond to my comments about books, and movies, so I will assume that you are fine with those just the same. Why is it that books and movies are just fine? What about a book with the same kind of content? Would that be appropriate? Even more interesting is that text is almost universally free online these days.

    —- There is a limit for both politicians against video games, and video games against politicians. http://www.goteamretard.com

  24. CMiner says:

    Copying my post from earlier:

    "By your reasoning, the following things should be banned because they can be used to cause "even one death", and thus they are unacceptable:

    Scissors, cars, tools, pens, piano wire, cholesterol, morphine, chairs, 2×4’s.. <list truncated, but could go on to include just about anything>"

    The only way to prevent all bad things from happening is to put the entire citizenry in lockup in individual padded cells.

  25. CMiner says:

    By your reasoning, the following things should be banned because they can be used to cause "even one death", and thus they are unacceptable:

    Scissors, cars, tools, pens, piano wire, cholesterol, morphine, chairs, 2×4’s.. <list truncated, but could go on to include just about anything>

  26. Sage says:

    You don’t seem to understand that even ONE death is not acceptable. Do you think that someone should be able to take YOUR life just because sane taxpayers should be able to do something?

  27. NovaBlack says:

    why would they ‘be better’?

    please explain. I fail to see how banning violent games would have any benefical effect. Evidence please.

  28. NovaBlack says:

    Wow nice idea a police state.

    How about we lock up criminals ‘before’ they commit crimes too, y’know just to be safe. Forget the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

    In fact.. car owners.. lets ban cars and lock up car owners because they COULD use the car in a hit and run, or as a getaway, or to aid in MANY other crimes.

    Lets tell the government it would also be ok to ban al kitchen utensils.

    IN fact.. PERFECT EXAMPLE.

    kitchen utensils.

    over 97% of people are gamers.

    only a FRACTION (0.0000000000000000001%) are killers.

    over 97% of people use kitchen utensils.

    only a FRACTION (0.0000000000000000001%) are killers. (using kitchen knives etc)

     

    so.. why should they ban one and not the other?

    wow.. you cant answer.. thats because your a hypocrite.

     

     

  29. Sage says:

    Thing is i’m NOT trying to take your rights away. I’m not Atkinson or Vaz, i’m not in a position to even be able to take your rights away. I’m simply stating my view that the government should step in on issues before mass shootings begin. I’m sure the families of the dead, and even the dead themselves would be alot better if the government stepped in and stopped it before it happened. That’s why I think anything violent should be banned. I’m not only against video games, it’s just that this site is about video games.

  30. Freyar says:

    However, by stopping unstable adults, you end up stopping sane taxpayers. Just because someone can drive drunk doesn’t mean the bar, or the alcohol industry ought to be fined. We put the blame on the individual, as that is what is illegal.

    The point is, there are far more stable people in the world than unstable people. For us to take a protective stance against peoplethat don’t know any better, or don’t care is one step closer to THX1138.  People need to be able to live their lives, work at their jobs, and enjoy their hobbies.

    I mean, owning a firearm and taking it to a range can do just the same if not moreso than a game, wouldn’t you say? You actually have the firearm in your hands, you are actually firing it, you are actually feeling the recoil, and you are actually seeing the results (on paper).

    ———–

    Judging from no response on my other previous points, I’ll assume you agree with them.

    —- There is a limit for both politicians against video games, and video games against politicians. http://www.goteamretard.com

  31. Sage says:

    "I never said an adult can’t be harmed, but an adult can be held responsible for his own actions."

    So you agree that adults can be harmed. So at a point you have the same view as me, but I believe the government should stop the adult BEFORE he can become responsible for endangering others.

  32. nightwng2000 says:

    Smoke screen and misinformation on your part, as with many of your posts.

    Don’t cause harm, no they don’t cause harm. 

    Religion doesn’t cause harm. 

    Bigotry and hate doesn’t cause harm. 

    Owning a gun doesn’t cause harm. 

    Reading Harry Potter doesn’t cause harm.

    Reading Playboy/Playgirl doesn’t cause harm.

    Having a debate on any controversial subject doesn’t cause harm.

    Reading the NY Times, NY Post, Enquirer, Human Events, Wired, Sports Illustrated, Journal of American Psychology, or any other form of news media doesn’t cause harm.

    Listening to rap, country, heavy metal, christian rock, alternative music, soft rock, or any form of music doesn’t cause harm.

    The actions of an individual against another individual is what causes harm.  Whether it’s verbal, mental, phsyical, and/or sexual abuse of any kind.  That’s what causes harm.

    What one is exposed to, and how they absorb it, from the most insignificant thing to the most life altering event can have an effect, positive or negative or even have no effect on an individual.  What is positive for one individual may be negative or have no effect on another.  And these factors are determined by a massive number of other factors, including genetic, personality type, prior life experiences, and other factors.  Saying something simplistic such as violent video games lead to violence or even aggressive behavior is a sign of a limited mintality, whether intentional or otherwise and unable to comprehend the enormity of the complexity of the individual.

    In addition, as has been stated many times before, the rating system is NOT a policy or restriction device.  It is set up as one of many  information devices for individuals and Parents to make informed decsions.  What retailers chose to do or not do with that rating system is up to them.  And merchant associations may set policy for membership to follow any or no rating system for their members or potential members.  But the rating system (ANY rating system) is as much a tool as the ability to look up information on schools your children may attend, or the neighborhoods you may decide to go live in, or the the vehicles you choose to buy, or the foods you choose to eat.  They are merely tools with which you are free to agree or not agree with.

    One individual or Parent may choose to allow their child to play a game, read a book, associate with various religious organizations, listen to music, or have conversations that another individual or Parent may find "inappropriate" for themselves or their own child.  And that’s all well, fine, and dandy.  Everyone is entitled to differences of opinion and belief.

    But what one individual or Parent does NOT have the Right to do, contrary to the beliefs of those who oppose the US Constitution and the Rights outlined therein, is DICTATE what is or is not appropriate for other individuals and/or other Parent’s children.  You have a problem with Mark Twain, Hip Hop, GTA, Baptists who perform religious marriage ceremonies on homosexuals, and MSNBC, well fine and howdy doody dandy, don’t participate in those things.  That’s your Right.  But don’t deny other citizens THEIR Rights.  That’s called subversive behavior and an attempt to create a dictatorship in a Free Country. 

    Am I getting too aggressive for ya?  Feel that I should just lay down and roll over and take having my Rights as both an individual and Parent denied to me?  Feel that YOU have the Right not only to stand up for YOUR Rights in whatever manner YOU feel necessary but that YOU have the Right to DICTATE to me what is or is not appropriate for myself or my child?  Now who’s being a hypocrit?

    Nightwng2000

    NW2K Software

    Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl

  33. Freyar says:

    I never said an adult can’t be harmed, but an adult can be held responsible for his own actions.  And adult has had the time and possibilities to become educated in what is right and what is wrong. While a minor is seens as helpless and coddled.

    I don’t know how old you are, Sage, but I remember my Saturday morning cartoons and shows revolving around the likes of ReBoot, Power Rangers (original), and Transformers. Was there violence in these shows? Shows tailored specifically for kids? Yes there was, but it was there to teach a few lessons here and there.

    Grand Theft Auto: The Lost and Damned is an interesting story.  For someone like me, it is interesting to see a take on Johnny’s culture, what he’s going through and the frustrations that he has to deal with day-in and day-out.  Johnny’s not a bad guy if you actually go through the story, he’s just dealing with bad situations.

    The problem is that I see a lot of people deciding to make their decisions on what is harmful and what is not harmful based on black-and-white assumptions.  "Violence of this kind is always harmful." "Violence of that kind is not."  Each individual would interpret an action their own way.  A few comics I’ve read held a story of a junior high-school student who was required to write a letter to whalers in an effort to show them that "they are wrong". However the student instead wrote according to his curiosity. What did whale taste like, how did they do it, and so on.  What is wrong with having a different opinion there?  Without knowing everything regarding the subject, people try and make decisions that impact everyone else.

    —- There is a limit for both politicians against video games, and video games against politicians. http://www.goteamretard.com

  34. Sage says:

    Could you provide proof on the fact that kids can be harmed but adult can’t? I’m not calling you out, I just want to see if there are any studies which prove that.

  35. Freyar says:

    Violent games can cause harm to unstable and uncared for minors. This requires parental supervision and discussion. That said, a "Mature" game is rated that way for a reason. The only reason Austrailia has such a problem is because we have one politician that has in effect made his stand to become a dictator, as opposed to a representative.

    A representational government these days isn’t a true representational government.  All we see are people that are "elected" to represent us, but turn around and dictate what the people can or cannot do. My prime example of this is Atkinson.

    With that said, there are many questions that need to be considered. Is HOTD:O even an interesting or good game in the first place? Not really. What about a game like Rapelay that the a few governments have decided to try and ban, despite it being released for online ordering since 2005(*I think its release date was 2005.)

    By making a giant fuss over a specific title, you generate more traffic as politically active adults and teenagers try to understand what our governments are thinking.  I remember myself wanting to see a copy of Rapelay just for the sake of being knowledgable in what the content is, rather than doing what Fox News did with Mass Effect.  This would have generated an extra sale (though it didn’t, I lost interest in following this as even more people decided to jump on the ‘let’s ban a 3-year-old-game bandwagon).

    Should a game like Grand Theft Auto be sold to (MOST) Minors? No. But I do believe that it is a parent’s responsibility and choice to choose when their child is exposed to such games. I reoutinely stop and educate parents in busy game stores about what content is actually in these types of games. It’s not that the content is "surprising". Just look at the title, look at the back of the case, and it would stand to reason that the game indicates the use of illegal activities ranging from not just the theft of cars, but many other things.

    Thompson’s bill seems to be up for signing by the Governor here in Utah. A state with a 94% enforcement rate from companies that have a volunteered policy on selling to minors. (It is almost impossibly to buy Mature rated titles in my city if you are under 18.)  This kind of over-reaction by lawmakers and our supposed "representatives" is what makes us, the games, so frustrated with the naysayers that just repeat each other like a flock of seagulls.  Utah is the last state that needs something like this, especially right now.

     

    —- There is a limit for both politicians against video games, and video games against politicians. http://www.goteamretard.com

  36. Zevorick says:

    Am I the only one appauled that they attributed Grindhouse cinema to Quentin Tarantino? He was INFLUENCED by grindhouse cinema… he most certainly did not create it or make it popular.

  37. CMiner says:

    "So you all believe that violent video games do not cause any harm, but then also believe children should be restricted from playing these games by the government?"

    Fixed your post.

    Also, there’s a difference between ‘causing harm’ and ‘inappropriate’.

    It wouldn’t cause any real harm if someone showed up to a workplace naked, but it is inappropriate and therefore not allowed.

    There is a difference between what is appropriate for a child, and what is appropriate for an adult.  Thus the age ratings.

    However, there are people who want violent games banned regardless of what age they are recommended for.  Instead, a parent should decide, with the information that is freely available to them, what their children can and can’t play.  Not the government.

  38. Erik says:

    Just because something isn’t appropriate for children does not mean that it is harmful.

    -Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person’s fear of their own freedom-

  39. Erik says:

    And with your inane little rant above you have proven that your knowledge of real weapons is absolutely ZERO.  To say that these games offer any sort of reasonable training in the actual use of firearms is beyond idiotic.

    Does playing Madden mean that the average gamer will be able to get signed on in an NFL team?

    -Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person’s fear of their own freedom-

  40. Sage says:

    So you all believe that violent video games do not cause any harm, but then also believe children should be restricted from playing these games? Isn’t that, in itself, a hypocritical statement?

  41. Andrew Eisen says:

    "In playing the game, players attack zombies or humanoid characters but never humans."

    Well, truth be told you can shoot the humans but you get penalized for it.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  42. Shadow D. Darkman says:

    Even in spite of his uncivil manner, he was still pretty funny.

    ——————————————————————————

  43. Roh02 says:

    "Can’t you all see the effect these high levels of violence are doing to yourselves"

    cant you see what high levels of hate mongering are doing to you?. if you want to fight some real scum of the earth take your hate speach to lawyers or something most of them are vultures.

  44. Vake Xeacons says:

    Yah, but sometimes, troll or no troll, ya just gotta say something, less someone else take him/her seriously.

  45. zel says:

    "turn troubled kids into "lethal killers.""

    as opposed to non-lethal killers?  😛

    ————————————

    I am a signature virus, please copy and paste me into your signature to help me propagate.

  46. Andrew Eisen says:

    "The gaming industry has been mischievously misrepresenting the classification system on this issue."

    Maybe her quote was taken out of context but the MA15+ was not assigned by the video game industry.

    And, as many before me have said, if only Australia had an MA18+ rating.

     

    Andrew Eisen

  47. Loudspeaker says:

    Well stated.

    I like your ending sarcasm as well

    "Volume helps to get a point across but sharp teeth are better."

  48. CMiner says:

    To those claiming that house of the dead, farcry, or any other first person shooter can ‘teach’ a person how to effectively use a weapon, and turn people into ‘trained killers’, I have a couple of points for you to consider:

    ‘Knowledge’ does not equal ‘action’.  There are millions of people who know how to build explosives, break your arm, shoot you in the head from 100 yards, etc etc.  Just because they ‘know’ something does not mean that they ‘do’ it.

    First person shooters do not confer real world shooting skill.  I know how to shoot a rifle and a pistol.  I have also played a number of FPS on the WII, Xbox and PC.  I can tell you from experience that shooting a gun in a game did not give me any more skill with a weapon that I did not already have.  As has been mentioned before, anyone who knows that the use of a gun can hurt someone, already knows that A) You need to point the weapon at the person you are shooting, B) That you need to pull the trigger to fire the bullet, and C) The bullet will hit what you are aiming at.  It only takes just a tiny bit more knowledge for a person to aim at, say, the head (which people also claim is a skill derived from video games.)  Common knowledge: The brain is a vital organ.  Also common knowledge: A person cannot live without a vital organ.  Logical deduction: Without the brain, a person will die.  Do you really think that a killer needs a video game to teach them this?  And if so, how did murders ever happen before video games?  Would the shooter in Germany (or V-Tech, or Columbine, or anywhere else) have hit fewer people if he had not played video games?

    Other mediums give just as much ‘training’ as video gameshttp://www.google.com – "How to shoot a pistol" or "How to reload a pistol".  Shooting ranges.  You tube.  Innumerable internet sites and books.  Why are video games singled out?  A game controller, even the Wii zapper, is not a realistic enough simulation to be any more of a training tool than someone holding a gun shapped stick.  Or playing laser tag.  Or paintball.  In fact, I’d argue that these last two things provide far more ‘realistic’ training than any video game.

    Fantasy does not equal reality.  From the time I was young, I have been able to tell the difference between the reality of life and the fantasy of video games/movies/tv.  I am a rational person free of any mental defects or diseases, and raised by rational/responsible parents.  And as such I know that there is a world of difference between shooting a simulated person in a video game, and shooting a real person with a real weapon.  There is a very definite, wide line between the two for me and a huge majority of video game players.  If a person cannot tell the difference between killing someone in a game, and killing them in real life, then they have a mental disorder that needs to be addressed.  It is not the video game’s fault.  Just like it was not the gun manufacturer’s fault that a murder was committed with their product.  And if you disagree with that statement, present your counter argument.  And then replace the word ‘gun’ in that statement with the word ‘bat’, ‘knife’, ‘car’, ‘hammer’, ‘crowbar’, ‘scissors’ and ‘rope’, and apply the same arguments to each new statement.  If your argument does not fit with those changes, your argument fails.

    Violent hobbies do not cause violent behavior.  Of -course- violent video games/movies/books were found in killer’s homes.  People enjoy what they enjoy.  But to say that the violent media caused the violent behavior is a logical fallacy.  A naturally violent person is going to enjoy violent media, and will bring it into their home.  And that’s not even true 100% of the time (how many violent offenders have had no violent media in their homes?)  Even if it were true 100% of the time (all violent offenders had violent media) does not mean the reverse is true.  Quiet people may naturally enjoy quiet music.  The quiet music does not -make- the person quiet, nor does it mean that the person -will- be a quiet type.  An artist may have paints in their home, but so might a person with no painting skill.  The objects in a home, even if related to the crime, do not cause the crime.

    ‘Knowledge’ does not equal ‘action’.  I am repeating this one because it is the most important.  Even if we argue about how much real world skill a video game can teach a person, it is a simple fact that just because someone knows how to do something does not mean that they will do it.  Knowledge of how to take a life does not put into someone the desire to take a life.

    This ‘evidence’ touted by these anti violent video game groups use flawed methodology and come to unjustified conclusions.  Or the groups simply ignore the study’s overall findings and focus on one small part taken out of context.  There has been no scientifically sound study that proves that violent media causes violent behavior.

    Video games have been around for years.  Shooting games have been around for years.  Video games with simulated guns have been around for years.  Millions, even billions of people have been exposed to these things on a regular basis.  These people do not turn into murders simply because of exposure to these things.  They do not turn into more skilled weapon users simply because of exposure to these things.

    Are we advocating exposure of minors to overly violent material?  No.  We are simply points out the flaws in these arguments.  And pointing out that it is a parent’s right and responsibility, morally and legally, to be involved in their kid’s life and to monitor what their kid is doing.

    Remember folks, correlation does not equal causation.  Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to load up ‘Duck Hunt’ and practice for my bird hunting trip.

  49. fozzy360 says:

    A large number of kids and adults?  Now they’re gonna find some excuse to say that violent games aren’t suitable for mature adults.

    The government.  Protecting your brain against your will, for your own good and the children.

     

    ————————————————————————

    "We received 20 calls last night. As we all know, one call equals a billion people. So 20 billion people called us last night. We must act to preserve decency on television." -The FCC

  50. Monte says:

     Far from it… i’ve played plenty of shooter games in my time and not a single one of them taught me how to reload a gun. Also there are many factors to firing a gun and that its much harder than games make it seem as their is much that is not accounted for. 

    Not to mention that games that actually utilize a gun-like controller are rather rare… until the wii came out with their wiigun, games like that could only be found in arcades, the popularity of which has declined greatly over the years. Essentially most of the people you would claimed were "trained" on games most likely didn’t play games with a physical gun controler and just played them with normal controllers… so any accuracy they might have shown while handling a gun in there crimes was not trained in the fashion that you explain…

    In fact, when it comes to the shooting in germany, i’m not sure if i’m mixing up cases, but i think in that case the shooter like to play with airsoft guns or something like that and supposedly had a fair collection of them… knowing that i’d be hard pressed to say the games taught him how to shoot.

    The desensitization is also another unproven factor… Jack and his like like to say the military use games to desensitize solidiers, but in his book, John Stossel i think it was, looks into the issue… he connected military officials and got a direct answer from them saying the games were used for developing teamwork and hand eye corridination and that’s about it

  51. hellfire7885 says:

    That too.

    We only speak out of aggression as, well ,we get attacked so much, almost always without cause or reason


  52. Monte says:

     copy and paste from above since it’s more appropraite

    I feel i should apologize for how some people might treat you. A lot of us has a lot of past experience with Jack Thompson coming to these boards… he has always been totally uncivil and was not open to discussion; really he did little more than just post his press releases, letters to people involved in a case, and just outright insult us; he’s quite undeserving of anykind of kindness… might not sound like him to someone who knows him personally, but from what i noticed about his conduct in front of a camera is that the persona he shows off publically is NOT the same as the one he shows here on the net or against people more privately… Not to mention how he treats the opponents in his cases (part of why he ended up being disbarred)… He’s even gone so far as threaten us with legal actiont… Frankly, it’s given some of us a bit of a knee jerk negative reaction to those that share some of his view points… so much experience to his blind view of things can sometimes make us forget that some critics can be much more resonable and thus should not be treated the same.

  53. Monte says:

    I feel i should apologize for how some people might treat you. A lot of us has a lot of past experience with Jack Thompson coming to these boards… he has always been totally uncivil and was not open to discussion; really he did little more than just post his press releases, letters to people involved in a case, and just outright insult us; he’s quite undeserving of anykind of kindness… might not sound like him to someone who knows him personally, but from what i noticed about his conduct in front of a camera is that the persona he shows off publically is NOT the same as the one he shows here on the net or against people more privately… Not to mention how he treats the opponents in his cases (part of why he ended up being disbarred)… He’s even gone so far as threaten us with legal actiont… Frankly, it’s given some of us a bit of a knee jerk negative reaction to those that share some of his view points… so much experience to his blind view of things can sometimes make us forget that some critics can be much more resonable and thus should not be treated the same

    Now, onto why i say you are wrong

    The only "evidence" i can ever think of would be the studies Jack likes to cite; which are unlike the ones he likes to convinently ignore and just claim the researcher is somehow a shrill of the game industry since he seems to believe there is a massive conspiracy… HOWEVER it has been pointed out numerous times that those studies are in some ways inaccurate or do not say what he likes to think they say…

    Earlier this week we had a researcher who looked at the studies and pointed this very thing out and came to the conclusion that the idea that "studies show violent games lead to violence" is really just politically motivated. The is also the study coming out of the UK which essentially says that based on all the previous studies we really don’t know how violent games effect people; the studies are either flawed or are far from conclusive

    Often times the studies are correlation studies and as any researcher can tell you there is a big difference between causation and correlation

    Another thing is that anti-game critics like to exagerate the results of the results of the studies. Take Bushman’s latest study… in it he notes that after experience violent media a person reacts 26% slower to helping another person… that sounds serious; that is until you realize that 26% is actually less then 2 seconds. Hell some of those studies claim a higher level of aggression because the subjects pushed a button milli-seconds faster than another person. 

    When it came time to try and pass game legislation, which has passed but failed (in court) about 10 times in this country, these studies were brought up as reason to legislate games… but legislating speech  requires strong evidence and the courts have always tossed out the legislation saying that these studies were not nearly enough and there is a reason they do so.

    And the final thing i’d throw out is that "games are interactive and therefore more influential" is an unproven myth… in fact i recall a study by the BBC that actually showed some signs that the opposite might be true in that the interactivity of games may cause a detatchment to the game and thus make them less immersive than movies… grant it, it was not the primary focus of the study so it is not conclusive but it is enough to put the whole issue into question

  54. ezbiker555 says:

    My anger and my outrage at how often we the gamming industry are attacked, can only be heard here. My voice just like others are in unison to fight for whats right. SO help me god as long as I live I will contiinue to support this cause because its the right thing to do. 

    Now answear me this sage, if you had children, would you want them playing GTA? I wouldn’t not untill they’re at least 17 or mature enough to show responiblity. 

    Its that easy, we don’t need any of this goverment laws, or these watch dog groups telling us what to do. We have the tools right here in front of us. JUst use them its all you have to do.

  55. hellfire7885 says:

    I sincerely apologize for the animosity, but quite frankly, it’s the fault of the anti game crusaders.

    TO put it another way, if you get punch a person in the face a few times, you have no right to act all shocked when they punch you back.

    When you’ve been insulted, blittled, condemned, had your rights threatened, and even had death wished upon you, al lbecause soemone doesn’t like soemthign about you, be it a hobby, sexuality, religion, whatever, then you tend to get defensive.


  56. Vash-HT says:

    Come on now at least he is being civil with his posts, Jack could never achieve that. Some of the things he says seem so biased though that they seem plain ridiculous and unbelievable.

  57. hellfire7885 says:

    Then we also need to ban every single movie that fits your world view don’t we? As those are not polygons and pixels but real people.


  58. ezbiker555 says:

    You have an agenda and want everyone to be safe? THAN listen to us and stop ignoring some points we make. When you attack us, we are going to defend ourselves, and prove our point. Come peacefully, and we shall listen and discuss. But by now the damage has been done, so there you go, another one added to the people that are no better than Jack Thompson.

     

  59. Vash-HT says:

    Look Sage the reason it’s obvious you’re a troll is because you’re spouting common anti-gaming rhetoric and jumping to wild conclusions that just because a kid who went on a rampage killed people and played games that games automatically had something to do with it. If you do really believe these things I feel sorry for you, if you think total isolation from violent meterial would stop people from killing each other you’re totally wrong.

  60. ezbiker555 says:

    Its so easy to go to the esrb and check out whats good and whats not. Instead people don’t care becasue they always claim to know whats right. When you claim to know whats right you, often your going to be wrong.

    PLUS we got so many differnt things for parental controls on systems and games. You don’t need the goverment, you don’t need watchdog groups, you don’t need any of this BS, everything is right there and you choose to IGNORE it! We are waiting for people to become aware about whats in place to prevent kids from having violent games. 

     

    IT ANT ROCKET SCEINCE!

  61. Sage says:

    Okay, some things Jack says are a little extreme. But generally we share the same ideals. And also, i’m not a politician, a lawyer, and I don’t have an agenda. I’m simply a guy who wants everyone to be safe and you insult and patronize me for it. Just to note this, you all seem to be more aggresive then I would have assumed. Can’t you all see the effect these high levels of violence are doing to yourselves?

  62. travelsize says:

    "But my mom thinks I’m cool!"- Milhouse

     

    I keep picturing his evidence as random scribblings on the back of a Denny’s placemat.

  63. hellfire7885 says:

    Exactly. The ratings are right there alogn with a clear description as to why that game has that rating. Movie ratings aren’t even that clear.

    By the logic these people use, all power tool manufacturers should have been out of business ages ago.


  64. Zero Beat says:

    It was the rare breed of evidence known as "Ninjevidence."  It is completely invisible, but always fatal to the credibilty of whoever presents it.

     

    "That’s not ironic. That’s justice."

  65. hellfire7885 says:

    Sooo, where was that evidence when he needed it? AS in, i nevery trial he got hismelf involved in and his own disbarment trial.

    He doesn’t even have the evidence. And if he does he never let’s anyone see it as it is bunk. Pure bunk, or fabricated/tampered with.


  66. ezbiker555 says:

    And unfortunatly these days, a lot parents fail to monitor their kids. I know my parents did a good job of it and I know there are good deal of parents on this site who do the same. (Kudos to you guys)

    When parents stop being irresponsible and become more involved with thier children like my parents did, than I’ll be happy.

  67. Nocturne says:

    He has it, he just doesn’t want to show us because we’re mean and we’re not invited to his birthday party, plus I have it on good authoroity his dad could beat all our dads.

  68. hellfire7885 says:

    Just pro games, and against minors getting their hands on violent games.

    However, unlike people, for instance the idiot who caused the above to happne by blocking the R18 rating from being implemented, we believe that the decision on if a minor gets a hold of said games is up to the parents. Not the industry, not the government, not the retailer, the parents.


  69. BearDogg-X says:

    Considering that the only things "linking" CounterStrike and Far Cry to the tragedy in Germany are agenda-seeking politicians and a news media with a tabloid mentality(the saying goes, "if it bleeds, it leads") and considering tragedies like that happen maybe once or twice a year, and considering that I live in an area near the Gulf of Mexico that has no hurricane protection that’s been hit by four hurricanes since 2005, then yes, I guess it is insignificant.

    People’s lives are hardly at stake. You’re the one who needs to grow up.

    Geaux Saints, Geaux Tigers, Geaux Hornets, Jack Thompson can geaux chase a chupacabra.


    Proud supporter of the New Orleans Saints, LSU, 1st Amendment; Real American; Hound of Justice; Even through the darkest days, this fire burns always

    Saints(3-4), LSU(7-0)

  70. Duffy says:

    Statistically speaking, we currently live in a time with the least amount of death in general (percentage wise). These occasional hiccups are to be expected considering the variety in human psyche, that does not make it any less horrible, but the truth disregards our feelings.

  71. Nocturne says:

    And House of the Dead teaches them how to accurately aim the same gun.

    Then why am I so bad at Clay Pigeon shooting, by your locgic I should be some sort of gunslinging zen master by now, unless of course your claim is completely innaccurate and unfounded…..

  72. NovaBlack says:

    you have evidence?

    is this like the other ‘evidence’ that jack always claimed to have? the ‘evidence’ he had that magically never appeared when he was found guilty with 27 counts of misconduct including knowingly lying and decieving?

    If its the same kind of evidence, you can keep it thanks.

    Nice choice in friends.

    You agree with his ideals? So you think all gamers should have the death penalty imposed on them too? (Jacks words on this very site not mine). Hmm if i were you id re-evaluate them. Not the best.

     

  73. ezbiker555 says:

    Loose freind huh?

    Just leave, your just as digusting as he is. I have no faith in the older generation of people today, there ignorance, and stupidity is just horrfying. You claim to know what is right for everyone yet you  ignore so many facts around you.

    >:(

  74. NovaBlack says:

    um sage.. sage.. answer me this..

     

    How do you decide that the fact he played games was ‘significant’? I mean its been shown that 97% of people play or have played a video game at some point. So where is the ‘link’. Even just on the law of AVERAGES. if 97% of shool shooters played video games.. that would actually be NORMAL.

    if any less than 97% of school shooters had played video games that would actually be ABNormal.

    So just the mere fact he ‘played video games’ means jack shit. Whats your point? Statistically, 97% of any group you pick who do anything will play / have played video games. In fact on average therefore 97% of all olympic gold medalists have played/ play video games. So does playing video games make me an olympic gold medalist?

     

    Heck  I could just as easily say this:

    90% of shark attacks occur in the summer.

    90% of people eat ice cream during the summer.

    therefore ice cream sales CAUSE SHARK ATTACKS.

    Thats the same logic you are using. y’know what its called… yeah thats right ‘stupid logic’.

     

     

    i mean there are other things that corellate with the same or even higher frequency. He watched movies.

     

     

     

     

    EDIT : wow i see you havent replied when somebody confronts you with reality. Whaddya know , you do follow JTs ideals.

  75. Sage says:

    I’m not trying to piss anyone off, am I not allowed to have a different view then you? Is this site 100% pro violent video games?

  76. Sage says:

    Um, i’m not Jack. But i’m a "loose" friend of his. And we pretty much share the same ideals, but please don’t be misinformed. And yes there is evidence, but I don’t keep copies of evidence around to show people, that’s Jacks thing. I’m a little more laid back them him when it comes to this stuff.

  77. Vash-HT says:

    LoL man give it up it’s obvious you’re just trolling to try to piss people off. I’d post some counters to your points but it’s kinda pointless since you’re just making things up.

  78. ezbiker555 says:

    CORRECTION! Why don’t you GROW UP SAGE?

    Shootings are sad no doubt, but when people like you try to promote your own agenda by using such a tragedy such as the german school shooting, its even more disgusting. You ignore the fact that an individual is repsonible for killing people and instead point the finger at something that you can’t even prove or claim correct facts from. HOW can you just shift the blame on something that  at the most was only a factor? HOW can you be so frigging irresponible? 

    Everytime you claim a game is at fault your even more irresponible for whos to blame and how ignorant you can be.

    Virgnina tech! A teenager went on a shooting spree and YOU (Jack thompson, you dam right I know who you are) claimed that no not the kids fault, blame the game WHEN in fact there was no evidenc eto prove that he ever played it in college.

    GTFO

  79. ezbiker555 says:

    How to reload a gun in a game (RB+A)

    How to reload a gun in real life………………………….. Pull the triger than throw it on the ground? I honestly don’t know

    I don’t see your connection between a game being a gun trainner when your not even using a device that is exactly like or a gun or simmilar.

    Get off your horse and don’t let the door slam on you as you leave.

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