Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto Rant / Pittsburgh Police Slayings

April 9, 2009 -

Earlier this week GamePolitics pointed out that in 2008 conservative talking head Glenn Beck held video games and popular media responsible for real-world violence.

In the wake of Sunday's horrific murder of three Pittsburgh police officers by a paranoid gun owner, however, Beck has insisted that his own media rants on gun control couldn't be blamed:

Blaming anyone except the nut job for what happened in Pittsburgh is crazy.

In this clip MSNBC's liberal commentator Keith Olbermann points out the obvious contrast between Beck's willingness to blame video games for real-world violence yet reluctance to admit that his own fervent anti-gun control rhetoric may have helped influence the Pittsburgh killer.

Thanks to: GamePolitics reader BlindJustice15...


Comments

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Well, what are we going to do, shoot all the right wing pundits? As insanely fun as that sounds, I don't think it's going to do anything in the end. And of course more would pop up again. The problem is really that some people are just generally dicks, and it doesn't matter how many bad influences you take away, they will always be dicks. Seems to me like pundits are just a symptom, or an indicator of dickishness levels.

But maybe you're right. After all, it was scaremongering and yellow journalism that caused the Spanish-American war. But are we really at that level yet? Right now, it's still just hack journalists preaching to morons. Most normal people can see that they're full of shit. And if they are actually influencing those who could be considered normal and reasonable people by society's standards, then this isn't really a problem that can be solved.

Actually, I take that back. It might not have been yellow journalism that was the cause of the war. That particular war might have been an inevitability, and people were just looking for an excuse to start shit with another world power to prove how strong America was. And if that's the case, then yeah, the pundits were a pretty good indicator of the level of dickishness.

--------------------------------------------------------

Believe in something! Even if it's wrong, believe in it! -Glenn Beck

-------------------------------------------------------- Believe in something! Even if it's wrong, believe in it! GET OFF MY PHONE! -Glenn Beck

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Well, I would love to see us holding them more responsible for the actions they help incite. Not criminally, mind you, but get word out there to the "morons" that these guys are just blowhards, maybe educate people. Try to trim thier followers.

It may be true that these guys are just Hack Journalists preaching to morons, but when the morons are armed, and they take calls to revolution seriously, there is a huge, potentially dangerous problem.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

I love this whole tangent of the thread.  I kept wanting to offer responses to you, gamadaya, but Valdearg kept saying precisely what I would have first.  Well done, gentlemen ;) (unless either of you are ladies, of course ;))

One thing I would like to say, though...gama, you ask if "we're really at that point" yet.  I would ask, "why should we wait to get there?"  If we can draw a logical conclusion that such behavior on the part of television personalities (from EITHER side of the aisle) can lead to such violent reactions in the general populace, why would we not attempt to enforce higher standards of honesty NOW?

Those in power (social power, I mean...media personalities, pundits, talking heads, etc....those whose opinions carry weight with the people) should always be held to a higher level of responsibility.  The scaremongering serves no one but themselves and their ratings; it hurts the rest of us.

I am reminded of this, which aired only two days ago: http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/index.jhtml?episodeId=223860

The second segment of the episode is the relevant part.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

I thought that was actually a good episode and he actually does make valid points several times.  However, unlike Beck and those on fox news, etc, with Stewart and Colbert, you know you are getting more comedy then anything else.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

That's some great ownage on Olbermann's part.

GameSnooper

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Again, karma is a bitch. I´m glad someone is taking note.

The cynical side of videogames (spanish only): http://thelostlevel.blogspot.com/ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com/

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto

Let me break it down for you Mr. Beck.

Computer/Console Games = Media

Televisions Shows = Media

Same thing? I think so. So how is your diatribe of vitroil Mr. Beck different from any other type of media?

Q: What obsolves you of responsibility Mr. Beck?

A: Nothing.

(Now take your licks like a good little boy.)

 

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Except they're not the same.  The delicious irony of this situation is that not only was Beck wrong when he accused games of causing violent behavior, but he's also wrong when he denies that he contributed to it.

Computer/Console Games/Movies == fictional media

Political news shows/television pundits/talking heads == non-fiction (allegedly) media

Beck is not a character.  He's the host of a real television show discussing the real world, and offering real "facts" about the way things are.

A rational person will not believe that something is true just because it's in a video game.  A rational person certainly may believe something is true just because a television personality asserts that it is, especially when that television personality is known as some kind of political pundit (i.e., an "expert").  Makes all the difference in the world.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto

Ok you guys need to watch the video on Crooks and liars from the link above.

HAHA; he compares himself to Martin Luther King Jr and Gandhi.

What's also great is he says anyone who blames anyone or anything other than the nut bag is insane ... he admits he is insane I love it =).

 

EDIT: I also forgot to mention the 1984 report everyone comment he makes you need to check in on your neighbors and if they concern you in anyway you need to report tham and say you are living by a nut bag;  My mommy doesn't think Cops should beat people up I think she's crazy please come and take her away.

 

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto

Keith Olberman at his finest.

Magic Taco

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Olberman is just as much of a partisan hack as Michael Savage, but in this case, he's unfortunately right.

If you go crazy then I will still call you Superman.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Savage got bombed off half the airwaves for being racist SOB on air.

Hes clsoe to the middle than all fo the talky heads on fox ever will be.

 Is he left leaning yes but then looking at the bush admin its easy to pick on the wight.

 

Hes been hiotting Bama pretty good so hes not a kool aid drinker...least not like the people at fuax are

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

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Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

More than just racist Savage is just about every -ist you can be and then some, if it weren't for Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh giving him competition he would flatout win the Biggest Jackass in the World competition.  Here are some of his "wonderful" quotes.

What will it take to wake you up to the fact that you are being erased from the future of America? And why are you being erased? If you're a person of European descent, why do they want your child to be a minority in America? And when your little girl is a minority in America, what will happen to her? Tell me what will happen to her? Do you think that the minorities, when they take over the country, will be quite as benevolent and as enlightened as the European-Americans are today? Or do you sense that just perhaps, just maybe, they will not bring the learnings of the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, to their new power?

I'm going to take it to the Supreme Court until eventually I force CAIR to describe who their funding sources are.(some background CAIR is dedicated to American Islamic relations, they tryed to get advertisers to pull their ads after savage made islamiphobic comments. Savage claimed they were funded by terrorists which didn't really help his case.)

You know, when I see a woman walking around with a burqa, I see a Nazi. That's what I see, how-do-you-like-that? A hateful Nazi who would like to cut your throat and kill your children. Don't give me this crap that they're doing it out of a sacred ritual or rite. It's not required by theQuran that a woman walk around in a seventh-century drape. She's doing it to spit in your face. She's saying, 'You white moron, you, I'm going to kill you if I can.' That's how I see it! What do you want me to do, mince words with you? I'm not going to mince words. We're too far gone in this country(I think CAIR has a point)

The Islamists smell weakness in the West and are attacking us on several fronts at once: one, through outright war; two, through immigration; three, through their propaganda disseminated through the liberal media and four, through the liberal courts. Only a devastating military blow against the hearts of Islamic terror coupled with an outright ban on Muslim immigration, laws making the dissemination of enemy propaganda illegal, and the uncoupling of the liberal ACLU can save the United States. I would also make the construction of mosques illegal in America and the speaking of English only in the streets of the United States the law.

But when it comes to the war, they [the Bush administration] mismanaged this thing, not from the war perspective, but from the pacification -- they've gone too mild, and they thought that the people are our friends, but what they don't know is when you're dealing with Arabs, there are no friends. They're old rug traders going back a thousand years in that part of the world. Right now, one side is your friend; the other side is your enemy. The next day, they're both stabbing you in the back and picking your pockets. But I guess they don't teach you that at Yale. They teach you that all cultures have something to offer the world.

And these are intelligent people, wealthy people. They are very depressed by the weakness that America is showing to these psychotics in the Muslim world. They say, 'Oh, there's a billion of them.' I said, 'So, kill 100 million of them, then there'll be 900 million of them.' I mean, would you rather die -- would you rather us die than them? I mean, what is it going to take for you people to wake up? Would you rather we disappear or we die? Or would you rather they disappear and they die? Because you're going to have to make that choice sooner rather than later.

Right now, even people sitting on the fence would like George Bush to drop a nuclear weapon on an Arab country. They don't even care which one it would be. I can guarantee you -- I don't need to go to Mr. Schmuck [pollster John] Zogby and ask him his opinion. I don't need anyone's opinion. I'll give you my opinion, because I got a better stethoscope than those fools. It's one man's opinion based upon my own analysis. The most -- I tell you right now -- the largest percentage of Americans would like to see a nuclear weapon dropped on a major Arab capital. They don't even care which one. They'd like an indiscriminate use of a nuclear weapon. They want this over with. One thing people cannot live with, which is an undefined, limitless conflict, which is what we have now. They can't take it. They want this war over with, and they want it ended like the war against Japan. They'd like Big Boy dropped on one of the little cities over there. They don't care where. They don't care any more. The American people have had it up to here with this garbage.(Further prove that savage is a genocidal maniac)

In fact, Christianity has been one of the great salvations on planet Earth. It's what's necessary in the Middle East. Others have written about it, I think these people need to be forcibly converted to Christianity but I'll get here a little later, I'll move up to that. It's the only thing that can probably turn them into human beings.(Speaks for itself doesn't it?)

The white male is like the stingray : You keep hunting him down, you're going to wind up with a barb in your chest (said 12 days after Steve Irwin was killed by a stingray in this manner). They haven't seen the white male. They don't understand the white male dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. They don't remember what the white male is capable of because he's been awfully subdued for a long period of time. But if push comes to shove, I can guarantee you all the turbanned folks are going to find out all over again just how vicious the white male can really be. They keep provoking this nation, they're going to wind up with a mushroom cloud over their country. As sure as I'm sitting here, Tehran will be 55,000 degrees and rising one morning, and we won't have to put up with that Hitler anymore.

The Democrats are the real Nazis, but we need to do the same thing to Muslims that the good Germans did to the Christ-killers!(HOLY MOTHER FUCKING SHIT! Did he really say that? Also, Savage, you owe me a new irony-meter.)

 

You know what, I can't do this anymore here's the link http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Savage_(commentator)

The rest of it is on there

okay just two more

Well there's a big difference between fighting for civil rights, and fighting for homosexual marriage, you moron. It's a big difference for fighting for the equality of all men, despite their race, and fighting for perversion, you idiot! You think people are stupid?"

"I choose to override my desires for men when they swell in me, waiting out the passions like a storm, below decks."

LOL

There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can't do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can't do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto


Ah Keith ya left leaning nut case(whos more factual than most) I love you!

Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

I'd like to know why we're still harping about 'anti-obama rhetoric' when that apparently had NOTHING TO DO with the shooting.  If you recall, it was spurred on by the mother calling the police to remove her son and his dog.  Supposeldy his ownership of the rifle was spurred by Obama (as have been many gun sales, seeing as he is for reinstating the assault weapons ban for some moronic reason or another), and that's only coming from statements by his acquaintances and co-workers. 

Some real questions we should be asking:

1) Why did the ATF or local police never take the rifle from him; after being dishonorably discharged from the USMC for assault a drill sergeant, he's no longer allowed to own the rifle.  It should have been turned over or taken from him within a month.

2) Why did the POLICE DISPATCHER never inform the units on the scene that there were weapons present, especially because the shooter's mother had mentioned it in the fucking phonecall?

3) Why did the police allow the third wounded officer to bleed to death on the ground?

Truth is, no one needed to die here.  Even with how things happened, the third officer shot didn't need to die.  We need to look at how this police department is being run, just like we need to look into the poor response by the NY police to the active shooter in Binghamton.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

I'd like to know why we're still harping about 'anti-obama rhetoric' when that apparently had NOTHING TO DO with the shooting. 

Probably because the part of this whole story most relevant to Game Politics' coverage is Glenn Beck being called out on his hypocrisy. AKA how he first was going on the whole line about how interactive works of fictional violence turn people into killers; then months later saying "No my 'Obama's coming to get ya!!!!!!' rhetoric couldn't possibly have had any influence, the guy was just plain nuts."

If Beck had never opened his mouth about games, this story would hardly be worthy of any reporting here. How exactly the police screwed up is questions for the mainstream media to be asking.

-Gray17

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

I agree on all points, especially that anti-Obama rhetoric has nothing to do with this. Sure, Glenn Beck is pretty much the biggest tool on television, but he didn't cause this shooting. The shooter wasn't a completely normal person who was corrupted by Glenn Beck and other ultra right-wing asshats. He himself was an ultra right-wing asshat from the beginning, who, as ultra-anything asshats often tend to do, liked to listen only to people to agreed with him. Take Beck out of the equation, and I guarantee the end result would be much the same.

And let me put something into perspective here. We have been fighting for years agains idiots who say videogames influence normal people to kill. We always bring up the perfectly logical argument that the people who are commiting murders and other violent crimes are pretty fucked up to begin with, and that their love for GTA is way down on their list of problems, and is certainly not a cause for their actions. But when some right-wing asshole who watches right-wing programming from somebody who is a known enemy of videogames decides to shoot up some cops, then we toss all our previous arguments out the window and blame the media for causing the shooting. Seriously, what the fuck. Just because it's convenient to give into hipocracy doesn't mean that it's right

Also, Keith Olbermann is basically a douchier, less funny version of Jon Stewart.

--------------------------------------------------------

Believe in something! Even if it's wrong, believe in it! -Glenn Beck

-------------------------------------------------------- Believe in something! Even if it's wrong, believe in it! GET OFF MY PHONE! -Glenn Beck

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Sigh.  For the umpteenth time...

There is a huge difference between claiming that a rational person is driven to violent action by a video game, something they know to be fake, and being driven to violent action by the words of a real person, something they know to be real.  Beck isn't a video game character, he's a television personality, and his words carry weight, especially with the ultra-conservative right wingers he tailors his crap for in the first place.

It's irresponsible of him (and his writers, and his producers) to deliver rhetoric that serves no purpose but to incite wingnuts like this guy.  It is reasonable to expect that when you continually immerse an ultra-conservative right winger in inflammatory "facts" about the evil gubmint comin' to take yer guns, that you're going to be a non-trivial factor to that person snapping.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Austin, first of all, its not the fault of Pittsburgh Police that 3 people died. It is that right wing extremist shooter's fault. That being said, 1 and 2 are good questions to ask, however 3 is just stupid.

That 3rd officer bled to death because they were effectively suppressed by your conservative buddy slinging lead without any regard to who or what he hit. In fact, he took a few chances to randomly fire into his neighbors occupied houses, even though they didn't actually have anything to do with the gunfight.

A better question to ask, however, is WHY this man believed what he did, and how he came to believe it so strongly that he felt he had to start killing people for it. I honestly believe that at least to SOME point, that the rampant, unabashed, conservative fearmongering that goes on daily from each and every one of the major political talking heads.

Its not like there isn't a fairly strong precedence for conservative scaremongering to influence the actions of a wingnut and sever thier already barely existant ties to reality? The Knoxville shooter had the entire collection of conservative "non-fiction" (Propaganda is more like it..) including titles like "Liberalism is a Mental Disorderand "Let Freedom Ring: Winning the War of Liberty over Liberalism" You dont think that maybe, just maybe, these people believed this things word for word, and really think they are fighting a "War" to win back thier country, when in reality, their beliefs just aren't in line with the voting majority's beliefs, anymore?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting#Motivations

(Thanks to

I cant tell you the amount of times I've heard Hannity say "They are coming! They are coming for your guns and your money!" or Limbaugh say "Liberals are the single greatest threat to this country in history," or Beck say "The Obama Administration is sort of like a Vampire. The only way to get rid of it is to drive a stake through it's heart." (Paraphrasing. The real quotes are damned close, though)

You don't think that a conservative extremist, listening to these guys offer thier "opinions" and "advice" on how to cope with a post Obama world take these comments seriously? If you don't, you are either naieve (to use your words against you) or just more willfully ignorant than I already give you credit for..

 

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

You know what I love? How you cite Wikipedia as an unbiased source, claim MSNBC is less biased than Fox News, and still have the gall to call others ignorant. It really is amazing, and shows just how poorly you have developed basic intelligence. Both channels are next to impossible to watch for normal people (actually, any cable news is impossible to watch for normal people, but I digress), and anyone who can watch one of them without barfing has only shown they're part of the extreme wings of the country.

A couple things I'd like to point out:

1) Wikipedia is not unbiased. Look at any notable politicians page.

2) Fox News is more sensationalist than MSNBC on their website, but that doesn't make them more biased. It makes them ratings whores (looks to have been successful too), nothing more.

You're writing more sensationalist things than Fox would print. Pathetic really.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

I never once said Wiki was unbiased. I know the pitfalls of using wikipedia. However, for the most part, there is a lot of useful information on it, and if you can find information to prove that the info in my link was wrong, I'd gladly edit it out. Buuuuuuut you wont.

As for the Fox News/Msnbc being the same level of bias, you must be pretty damned ignorant yourself, to believe that.

1: The number of outrageous captions on Fox's main site's webpage, like the one yesterday, about the recent appointment of a faith advisor who has criticized the pope on occasion: "Faith Advisor, Pope Despiser" Despiser? Really?

2: Up until Election Day, the polls on Fox had the race neck and neck, which was clearly not the case if you actually looked at the rest of the polls in the world and the final election results, which were anything but close.

3. Fox's Comments moderators are rediculous. They let hateful gay bashing comments through about how we will all end up screwing Dogs, but a well thought out liberal comment gets blocked.

4. Msnbc doesn't do any of that crap. I've never seen a caption or headline that made me go "WTF?!", The election results were realistic, if not skewed left. I will admit that during the election there was more bias than normal.. and Msnbc's moderators will allow most reader comments through, unless they are horribly bigoted or hateful, or the don't have anything to do with the conversation at hand.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Of course I'm not going to check the links. I have a 10 month old daughter. I have better things to do than validate the accuracy of links on an article on Wikipedia referenced by a comment on a post on blog I happen to read in my free time about a war between two blow hard commentators. Besides the point, I never said anything about the accuracy of the links or the article. I simply pointed out how Wikipedia isn't, and shouldn't, be held to the same standards as other news sources, especially since it is prone to vandalism. Wikipedia should never be trusted for anything related to politics for this reason. If you want to post information about your favorite band from there, that's fine, as it doesn't carry the same level of relevancy.

Ok, I'll set this out for you. You're clearly a liberal. You saying MSNBC isn't biased is like a Glenn Beck fan saying he isn't biased. It's the same damn thing, and you don't have the perspective to say that they're not biased.

Otherwise, I'll take your points point by point myself.

1) I'm not saying Fox News doesn't have sensationalist headlines. In fact, I explicitly stated that. But that's really all it is - sensationalist for ratings and page views. Clearly it's been successful for them because they are far and away the most watch news channel.

2) You clearly understand nothing about polling. Besides that, you're flat out wrong. I'll do a little research for you on this one, because this should be so blatantly obvious it amazing.

Here's some real polling data taken from RCP. I'm not going to take a huge sample, but I'll do it for about the same time period about a month and a half before the election.

FOX News

08/19 - 08/20

900 RV

3.0

42

39

Obama +3

 

USA Today/Gallup

08/21 - 08/23

765 LV

4.0

48

45

Obama +3

 

CBS News/NY Times

08/15 - 08/19

869 RV

3.0

45

42

Obama +3

NBC News/Wall St. Jrnl

08/15 - 08/18

1005 RV

3.1

45

42

Obama +3

 

Would you look at that. Hmmm, it seems that despite the polls being taken at pretty much the same time, they both have the same data. Funny how that works. I can do this all day, but that's beside the point. Even though they all show the race exactly the same way, the polls mean nothing BECAUSE ITS WITHIN THE MARGIN OF ERROR, especially when most of these polling places give relative margins of error, not absolute margins of error. Relative means that you have to apply it to every statistic, which means that the Gallup poll I cited could really mean anything from McCain +5 to Obama + 11. This is assuming of course that for their poll it is a relative margin of error, and not absolute, it's not listed either way.

What does this mean? Besides the fact that you're wrong, it proves that polls don't really mean much.

I won't comment on 3 or 4 as I don't watch either channel, or visit either website.

All I said is

1) Wikipedia isn't a reliable source for politics and shouldn't be used as such,

and

2) MSNBC and Fox News are pretty much the same when it comes to normal people. You clearly don't fall into that category, so you really aren't qualified to comment on how MSNBC isn't biased.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

No, Fox is a propaganda machine.  There is not a term called Foxaganda because of how bad they are.  They are by far the most bias news station out there, calling Obama a muslim constantly, praising Palin and Bush, always bias in interviews supporting the religious nut case side, and proving that they might as well be based in one of the hick red states, mostly Texas where they are now teaching creation in the schools, haha.  Fox supports that type of ignorance.

Nido Web Flash Tutorials AS2 and AS3 Tutorials for anyone interested.
How to set Xbox 360 Parental Controls

Nido Web Flash Tutorials AS2 and AS3 Tutorials for anyone interested.
How to set Xbox 360 Parental Controls

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Boy, you sure know how to make yourself sound like a nutjob. I actually agree that Fox is biased, but go ahead and go off the deep end. Do you mean Fox News actually reported on the interview where Obama himself called himself a Muslim? It was clearly a misspeak, but still news. Besides that, do you actually have any evidence that Fox News supports the teaching of creationism in public schools? You make yourself sound like a Code Pink member the way you rant. If Fox News is propaganda, so is MSNBC. That's my only point.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

"He doesn't have his hand on the bible." "Is he really president?"

You were saying?

There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can't do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can't do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Well i agree with the right to bear arms like a handgun, a rifle or shotgun in the house to protect your family and/or for hunting i can understand a ban on semi-automatic and automatic weapons do to the extreme danger they pose.

Should people be able to own nuclear weapons, they could conceivably be covered by the Second Amendment but i do believe a ban on them would satisfly a compeling state interest.

"No law means no law" - Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black on the First Amendment

"No law means no law" - Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black on the First Amendment

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Explosives are Ordnance, not covered under the 2nd amendment.  Also, an individually CANNOT own a nuclear device without harming themself and those around them for the most part, making it unwise to allow ANYONE save governments to own them.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

And with the wealth of tactics at their disposal, the police couldn't recover their injured comrade?  Here's an easy solution: BIG FUCKING SPOTLIGHT.  As in the kind that every police car has. Another solution: force him to move away from a position that he could shoot the cops retrieving the injured cop. Suppress him with pepperballs, something nearly every larger police department has.

There was a wealth of easy and quick solutions here.

Also, once again, this wasn't a 'why does he feel the need to kill people for his beliefs' situation.  He was killing people because he didn't want to be thrown out of his mother's house.  This wasn't some long planned out 'ambush', it was a spur of the moment decision to throw his life away and kill some officers.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Well, to be fair, we don't really know how the standoff went down in full. There are plenty of reasons why the police may not have been able to get to their comrade. Of course, they may have just screwed up bad, but even if that's the case, it isn't really the point of the story.

--------------------------------------------------------

Believe in something! Even if it's wrong, believe in it! -Glenn Beck

-------------------------------------------------------- Believe in something! Even if it's wrong, believe in it! GET OFF MY PHONE! -Glenn Beck

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

I love how you avoid the point. The Pittsburgh police are not at fault here. It is the fault of this right wing, extremist nutbag, who, more than likely was influenced by right wing propaganda and scaremongering.

Also, boy, you suuuurrrree have a lot of solutions to this situaton, considering you more than likely do not have any formal police training, you weren't actually involved in the shootout, and you don't know all of the details involved. Not to mention, you must really be taking notes from those Right wing talking heads. You do a great job of trying to detract from the argument by inserting facts unrelated to the idea that conservative propaganda can influence the actions of wingnuts.

Way to fail at trying to detract from the true focus of this conversation.

Rather than shying away from my relatively well thought out points in my previous post, why don't you address them? This story isn't about how the Pittsburgh police could have done better, it is related to how it is quite possible that Beck's inflammitory rhetoric could, quite possibly, have helped him along the path to this point.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

I'm very much liberal, but, I do have to make points. I can't believe I'm going to do this, but...

Blaming the right wing really won't do anything. *shutters* Yeah...I'm actually defending them. Did they have an influence? Yes. However, there's much more to it than that.

While I do find the vocal side of the right wing as, often, either crazy or shockingly ridiculous (or sometimes both), they do have influence over a lot of people.

It is, quite reasonable to assume, that the shooter had a mental problem. He could've been anti-social, or a sociopath. If it wasn't Beck, it would have probably been something else.

Placing even the majority of the blame on conservative influence just doesn't hold ground. If he was an ordinary person, the most he would've done would probably go around protesting, or bitching about it among other conservatives. But clearly something was up with this guy.

There was definite influence, that is certain. But, you still can't reasonably say just how much of his actions was that influence, and how much is what was wrong with him in the first place.

Now excuse me, I have to scrub myself clean and repress this memory.

And just to make clear; I hate Beck, all of Fox News, and a whooole lot of those vocal conservatives. But, I'm trying to look at this from a logical stand point as well. Sure, I'd love to blame this on them, but for me, that's the low road. I think Beck and his ilk should still take responsibility for what they say (and as I pointed out earlier, that is different from calling for punishment).

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Right.  Surely, the groups responsible for SEIZING his illegally-owned firearms aren't responsible.  That makes too much sense.  Surely, the ATF and local law enforcement couldn't have done their jobs and taken from him the firearms.  SURELY.  While we're at it, why don't we blame Barack Obama for publicly stating that he wants to reinstate the Assault Weapons Ban, or for running his first 100 days in office in a way that would suggest to pundits that he is looking for ways to restrict 2nd amendment rights?  It makes just as much sense, when it all comes down to it.  Especially when you consider that it WASN'T A FUCKING AMBUSH.

Now, had this been an ambush, there might be some credit to this whole 'Glen Beck and others influenced his decision to kill the police' line of thinking.  But it wasn't.  It was the irrational response of a man fearing that he was going to be arrested or kicked out of his mother's house. 

Also, I actually have both police and military training, though I've never spent any time as a police officer.  At the beginning of my consulting career, I worked with a few small departments to modernize their training and equipment.  Simple things, like the purchase of 900Mhz radios, to more complicated things like trying to get a k9 unit from the Matt Haverkamp foundation and helping to get their police station capable of accepting 911 text messages (it costs 20,000 dollars per workstation, basically, plus software and training an individual).  As such, I saw the whole training process, as well as taking part in it. 

No matter WHAT the situation, there is always a police car (probably 2, seeing as three cops died) at the scene, meaning distracting or blinding someone with a light is ALWAYS an option.  SWAT snipers will occasionally use a small spotlight to their advantage, especially at night, in order to hide in the dark behind the light, a place where it is especially hard to detect anything and where nightvision will be useless to help spot them. 

You sure seem to be bent on the idea that Glen Beck influenced this man to kill, but apparently Grand Theft Auto can't influence others to kill.  Somewhat inane point of view, to my thinking.  Personally, I think that neither of them was an influence on him, and this is just the result of an irrational and obviously aggressive person being presented with a bad situation for him.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

If you have police training then what are the proper procedures for a Domestic Disturbance Call without Weapons?

It is my understanding from the reports that 2 officers showed up to the house first followed by a 3rd police office as back up. So what would have been the procedures the officers would have followed? If a Domestic Disturbance Call with Weapons did go out what are the proper procedures then?

Is the light an option at 7:00 am? Or when the suspect is indoors? How about the location of the sun? would that matter?

If you have military combat training what strategies do you use to recover wounded personnel that is lying in the open area or within gunfire range of enemy combatants? What are the major factors in deciding which strategy to take?

I am curious to know if your training covered all these topics. From what I have read in your post your training was on the IT side and did not have much on combat.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Aside from the Assault Weapons Comment, what other evidence do you have that Obama is going to infringe on ANYONE's rights? I see nothing but heresay and irrational fear from your side of the aisle. Obama is NOT going to take your precious handguns, hes NOT going to take your precious bullets, he is going to leave your access to killing machines alone, for the most part. Hes also NOT going to implement the Fairness Doctorine, and hes NOT going to intern the nations youth into Brainwashing Camps.

Honestly, I think you and your ilk are just upset that, for once, the Majority of America disagrees with you.

That being said, you must be frigging dumber than a rock to believe that inciteful rhetoric or propaganda Can't influence others behavior, even whip them up into a violent frenzy.

You don't think that without the great Orators and writers of the Revolutionary Era, that normal townsfolk would have gotten up in arms and fought the British? What about the Secessionist Propagaindists? You think without them, the South would have still seceeded from the Union, triggering one of the most bloody conflicts in American History?

The truth of the matter is, when you are a good orator and can spread propaganda and fear throughout the country, it can be very, very dangerous. As of this point in time, Obama has not done a THING that would prompt even the thought of an armed revoulution. Yet, according to these talkers and thier followers, we are living under the arms of a Tyrannical Dictator. It's talk like this, that undoubtedly causes events like this Pittsburgh shooting and the Knoxville Chuch Massacre to happen.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Well, let's see it from the horse's mouth.  From Whitehouse.gov, under the 'urban policy' heading: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

To start with, the Tiahrt Amendment doesn't restrict local law enforcement the ability to trace guns at all.  That's an out and out lie.  Truth is, the FOP believes in keeping it in place, because it protects individual rights. 

'Commonsense measures' come in two flavors.  The most common flavor is the 'for the children' bullshit line (you know, the one that people get all up in arms about whenever its applied to video games) which includes things like dissolving the CCW permit program and making it out and out illegal.  The other, far more sinister, flavor is the kind that brings us old and manipulative legislation like 'no gunstore can be within five miles of a school, park, or federal building', which would cause 90% of gunstores to close down.  Then there's things like increased taxes on ammo which he's talked about before, and my personal favorite, the first thing he did against 2nd amendment rights: he tried to force the military to melt their brass, rather than sell it to civilian markets for reloading.  This would have, had he suceeded, tripled the price of the .308 and .223 round, which would make it about 3 dollars a round.  Thankfully, certain members of the military and civilians made enough noise about it that he rescinded it. 

Then of course, we come to the Assault Weapons Ban.  With what's going on in Mexico, one would think that it'd be wise to offer rebates or tax breaks to law-abiding citizens in places like Texas and Arizona who wish to defend themselves, instead of trying to twist the ATF's words (lookin at Hillary Clinton on this one) to make it look like we're responsible for 90% of the firearms in Mexico.  The Assault Weapons Ban would also ban the purchase of firearms with more than 10 round capacity, which is most handguns, as well as banning many firearms simply because somebody doesn't like the way they look. 

The one thing that should put the hackles up on the back of any free man though, is Obama's comment: A crisis is a terrible thing to waste. 

So why do we need access to assault weapons?  A few reasons.  I use mine for sport.  Its also one way that we can protect against what many socialist governments develop into; a semi-automatic rifle can still compete with a fully automatic rifle. 

Do I really care that the 'majority' of America disagrees with me?  No.  Have you seen the average American lately?  Most people who voted Obama can't tell you anything about his stance OR McCain's stance, nor about the two VP's, save those who think that Palin said 'I can see Russia from my house'.  Many people in poorer communities still believe that Obama is going to make me pay for their cable, for their heat and water, and for their mortgages (the few who don't rent, anyway).  The majority of America is made up of people who are, let's face it, unintelligent.  Of course, I don't doubt for a minute that many of the votes in this last election (on both sides, though a lot more on the democrat side) were falsified; I know that ACORN bussed around homeless people in Ohio so they could vote 7, 8 times a person all for the promise of a few meals, a blanket, and five dollars. 

Are you suggesting that Glen Beck is a 'great orator'?  I disagree.  He's just like any other talking head.  And as I said, the only way that I'd agree is if this was an actual, planned ambush.  Let's look at this past actions that we know; namely, that he assaulted a Marine Drill Sergeant.  Now, I'm not one to shy away from a fight, but I wouldn't go picking a fight with a Marine Drill Sergeant for no good reason.  Obviously, this individual was either unbalanced or an idiot, just like the members of ALF who followed the left-wing anti-corporate battle cry to bomb research labs.  It's just like videogames; the vast majority of people who listen to talk radio or Fox News or MSNBC don't go out and commit atrocities, so that can't be the only thing that influences them to kill.  In this individual's example, he was spurred on by the fact that his mother was having him and his dog EVICTED FROM HER HOUSE because she was sick of him. 

And you're right, aside from a MASSIVE, massive deficit, undertones of 2nd amendment restrictions to come, his handling of this whole Mexico business, the fact that he's got more tax cheats on his staff than any of the last administrations, he's done nothing to prompt an armed revolution.  And at the end of the year, when we face double digit inflation, we can have this conversation again.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

So you believe that ACORN helped steal the election huh?  Yet I seem to remember you telling me that I was a liberal conspiracy theorist when I mentioned that their was lots of evidence that the 2004 election was stolen a few months back* I smell a hypocrite.

* If that was not you than ignore this comment.

There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can't do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can't do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

"The one thing that should put the hackles up on the back of any free man though, is Obama's comment: A crisis is a terrible thing to waste. "

    Getting your info from the likes of Hannity, again? That was Rahm Emanuel's Quote, Not Obama.

"So why do we need access to assault weapons?  A few reasons.  I use mine for sport.  Its also one way that we can protect against what many socialist governments develop into;"

    You know, the more I read what you write, the less I think you fall into the "Sane, rational, conservative thinker" bucket, and more into the "Right wing crazy, Rush/Hannity Worshiper, Can't take my political loss with any grace" Bucket.

Do you really, really think that we NEED PROTECTION from a socialist government?! Canada is Part Socialist, so is England, France, and most of Europe. They certainly arent Tyrannical Dicatorships like you seem to think "Many socialist governments develop into."

First of all, we aren't going to be 100% socialist, by the time Obama is done. And secondly, even if we do move a little towards socialism (NOT Communism or Nazism, as you conservatives seem to enjoy making the comparison to) its not necessarily a bad thing. And certainly not something worth revolting over.

I mean, Jesus. Your arguments are taken from the talking heads themselves. Why not come up with something on your own, perhaps? Oh, here's a good one, by the way. Used by "The Great One" Mark Lavine. (Who I am sure YOU are oh so familiar with.) "You don't like the way our country is going?! Then get the HELL out! We don't need you here!" (This was Mark's argument when anyone called in to his show, expressing disapproval of the way Bush ran his government)

My advice to you, by the way, is take your party's political failure with some tact, for once. Get over the fact that you lost. Get over the fact that, for the next 4, hopefully 8 years, you will be dealing with a liberal administration. Maybe, oh, I don't know, try working WITH us, rather than spend your time whining, complaining, and threatening to revolt, because, lets face it, it's not going to happen. The best thing you and your party can do from here is start being CONSTRUCTIVE, rather than DESTRUCTIVE. Start trying to help, rather than preparing for the worst.

Conservative, Bible Thumping, Gun Hording, Ignorant Morons are a dying breed. You should probably get off that train while you still can.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Here is the funny thing the rhetoric Austin is spewing is the same reason I didn't vote republican this time ... I'm tired of this rhetoric I'm tired of the be afraid the govment comin be afraid the terroist commin be afraid the mexis be comin. 

You know what the conservatives need to do GROW UP.  People are tired of them they are tired of the lies they spew yes the Democrats are no different in lying but you want to know what they aren't the republicans and that right there gives them a +5 on a one to ten scale.  

 

 

 

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

I'm getting kinda tired of this Right wing BS...How about just extremist...ELF or whatever it's called could be concidered a Left Wing Extremist group cuz they kill people for the sake of the fuzzy wuzzy animals...(which don't get me wrong, at this point I value animals over humans these days but not to that or PETA's extreme for that matter their just nuts) there's not Right wing no Left wing in instances like this...there's just extremists and crazies...I get sick of watching people label them as Democrat, Republican, Liberal, conservative because then -you- are continueing the circle of hate and -you- are no better then they are, and I seem to recall something about Mr. President wanting to take guns away from americans so I won't believe that it's just some conservative crazy going overboard...it was a very distrubed person that killed people...give up this ignorant ideal that yer so much friggan better then everyone else just because you're a liberal cuz from a Utilitarian point of view most Liberal agenda is BS too.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

PETA and ALF aren't on the left right axis just the sane insane axis. I think of it as a graph with liberal/conservative along the x axis and sane/insane on the y axis

There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can't do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

There have always been motherf*ckers, there will always be motherf*ckers, but what we can't do is let them control our motherf*cking lives. -John Oliver, December 1st, 2008

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

At the risk of sounding arrogant, line breaks and spelling are your friend..

I tend not to respond to posts like this, because, honestly, Its a pain in the ass to read them.

However..

"I seem to recall something about Mr. President wanting to take guns away from americans so I won't believe that it's just some conservative crazy going overboard"

    He was a right wing extremist. He was a white supremicist (The rightest of the right) He was a right wing conspiracy nut. Bottom line, the facts state the he was Right wing, so when I call him Right wing, guess what. I'm right.

    Also, where, exactly did you hear something about "Mr. President wanting to take guns away from Americans"? I can tell you I didn't hear it from any "Reputible" source. He might be in favor of limiting access and tighter restrictions, but he sure as hell never said he wanted to take guns away completely.

"give up this ignorant ideal that yer so much friggan better then everyone else just because you're a liberal cuz from a Utilitarian point of view most Liberal agenda is BS too."

    First of all, I never once said I was better than anybody. (regardless of how I might actually feel about it) If you glean that from my writing, well, thats your perception. Also, Utilitarianism is utter crap, if you ask me. "The greatest good for the greatest number"? Give me a break. That would imply that killing off thousands of people so that millions might enjoy a slightly better quality of life is a positive thing, which in reality, is not the case.

 I'd research and type more on why Utilitarianism is just plain stupid, but I have to go bowling, and I'm running late already..

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

Well, I would guess on

1) that the military probably didnt inform local police/atf about the subject being dishonorably discharged.  I know from my experience in the Army, working as a paralegal, I don't recall ever contacting the local police/atf of a  person who was being discharged from a court martial offense.  Typically, the military just gets rid of someone being chaptered or court martial as fast as they can.  Though I am curious as to see what this guy's court martial packet looks like.  Most assault cases that I handled in the army, we usually just chapter 14 them out with Gen OTH discharge.  Only the most serious assult cases, with physical damage to the victim, did we take the extra time/cost to court martial.  Though this is the USMC and not the army, so they may have different policies on USMJ.  Maybe instead of the Assault weapon ban, maybe more funding and requirements for ATF/local police/sheriffs to go around checking people who are legally not allowed to own a firearm, have their weapons confiscated or at least tell the owner he must with police escort must go and sell gun to local gun/pawn store?

On a side note, why an assault weapon ban...if anything handguns are more often used in any crime.  Assault weapons are just too costly and bulky to be used for most criminal purposes.  If you really do want to make a new law, just make a higher criminal penalty for using an assault weapon in a criminal manner.

2) Dispatcher is either stupid or just made an all too human sadly mistake.

3) Safety I would guess?  They probably didn't want to risk getting shot trying to rescue him.  However, I do agree that they probably should have done more to try and get to him, but its probably understandable that they didn't know what they were facing besides a white male with guns shooting at them.  We probably should look at what their police procedures say to do in circumstances like this.  If they followed them then we either need to look at whether they are good or need improvements.

All i hope is that this shooter gets a quick appointment scheduled with Ol Sparky or needles in the arm(or maybe even better kills himself in prison, saving taxpayers alot of cash).  The guy had lots of issues, whether anti-Obama stuff is a factor remains to be seen, it probably is not the defining reason as to why this guy opened his door and killed the officers.  I would say the mother can probably be at fault for some of this.  Lets face it she knew her son was dishonably discharged from the military and you would hope she knew that he is not suppose to have firearms.  She could have easily when her son left the house for what ever reason, gone into his room picked up the guns and sold them/turned them in.  It's a tragic story and there can probably be finger pointing for blame all around the room.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

1) ATF is SUPPOSED to follow those sorts of things up.  Obviously, they rarely do.  Maybe instead of a ban, the ATF could do its fucking job once in a while?

3) Night or day, the police cruiser is armed with a powerful tool for distraction: the spotlight.  It can create a light well, focusing attention on the light and making it harder to see things occurring near the light.  All that had to be done was shine the lights towards the house. 

And yeah, the mother is at fault for some of this.  No question.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto

I love Olbermann so much. 

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto

Olbermann is great!

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto

We have to ban Glenn! For the children! Fuck the first amendment, that man is evil!!!(sarcasm of course)

 

-Personal Responsibility. I like that.

Reality/////////////////////////////////////Fantasy. Seems like a pretty thick line to me...

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto

thats...that's just awesome.

I don't even know what else to say.

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto

paybacks a bitch ain't Glenn Beck?

http://www.magicinkgaming.com/

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft Auto

Cue Jack Thompson calling Keith some insulting names while praising Beck as a true man of God in 3, 2, 1...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------



"A Chrono Trigger is anything that unleashes its will or desire to change history!" -Gaspar

Re: Keith Olbermann Takes On Glenn Beck Over Grand Theft ...

@ Darkman,

 

Jack Thompson saying Microsoft was behind this rants and trying to discredit Beck and promote violent games in 3...2...1

We may see that if JT read gamepolitics and probably watch MSNBC.  He'll probably say that Microsoft was behind this rants (Microsoft owned this station along with NBC, and you know how JT doesn't like Microsoft because of Counter-Strike and Halo).  JT will think it's a conspiracy that MS is trying to discredit Beck and JT himself.

 

 

 
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NeenekoI am also thinking back to the people I knew who interned or interviewed at Intel and the types they hired. Not gamers, but very steeped in the all male engineering culture.10/02/2014 - 12:58pm
SleakerIntel runs LanFest, and actively sponsors other multiple LAN events across the country, just to throw out a couple links on the culture side.10/02/2014 - 12:52pm
NeenekoPlus, it is unusual for a company as large as Intel to take such actions and it indicates there is probably an internal syampthy or cultural overlap with the gaters that bumped their visibility.10/02/2014 - 12:50pm
NeenekoI do not think anyone is suggesting that either intel or gaters should not be able to, but the chain of events is chilling to some.10/02/2014 - 12:48pm
MaskedPixelantehttp://www.wesh.com/news/man-shot-5-times-by-police-to-face-judge-on-firstdegree-murder-charge/28368490 And cops wonder why no one likes them.10/02/2014 - 12:42pm
SleakerIt's up to the companies to determine if they think running their ads on a controversial site may cause more damage to them, the only way they might get this is by feedback.10/02/2014 - 12:37pm
Sleakeropinion to a company on where they run ads.10/02/2014 - 12:36pm
Sleaker@Papa Midnight - Requesting ads get pulled from a site due to not agreeing with their message is not censorship. Funding and voicing your opinion are two completely separate topics. It's completely reasonable for people to voice their10/02/2014 - 12:35pm
Papa MidnightSame here, prh99.10/02/2014 - 12:31pm
prh99I played the first Half Life, haven't bothered with any of two. I like Portal more than Half Life anyway.10/02/2014 - 12:31pm
NeenekoI only got a short way into HL-1, but enjoyed HL-2. Probably because I do not like PC FPS games and HL-2 I got on console.10/02/2014 - 12:28pm
Andrew EisenI have a confession to make: I didn't really care for Half-Life.10/02/2014 - 12:27pm
Papa MidnightI don't think I've used the forums since the Wordpress days.10/02/2014 - 12:13pm
NeenekoI keep forgetting we even have forums.10/02/2014 - 11:48am
ZippyDSMleeA shame we can't have good convos in the forums, seems to me its time to nuke and restart fresh on them.10/02/2014 - 11:45am
Papa MidnightOh, no problem! Just wanted to let you know that it's what we're discussing. By all means, join in!10/02/2014 - 11:36am
E. Zachary KnightNeeneko, No problem. In juicy conversations, key points of discussion get pushed off quickly.10/02/2014 - 11:36am
NeenekoA rather scary censorship. I have known too many people and small companies destroyed by such pressure, so this unnerves me at a pretty personal level.10/02/2014 - 11:36am
NeenekoMy bad, I always have trouble working out what is going on in shoutbox10/02/2014 - 11:34am
Papa MidnightTo a point stated earlier, it very much is a form of indirect censorship. Rather than engage in rhetoric and debate, one side has instead chosen to cut-off opposing viewpoints at the knees and silence them via destroying their means of income.10/02/2014 - 11:28am
 

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