Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

August 20, 2009 -

Eidos president Ian Livingstone (left) is the latest game industry exec to complain about used game sales.

The BBC spoke to Livingstone about the issue. Here are the Eidos exec's comments:

The pre-owned market is a serious problem, because there is no benefit to developers or publishers...

A shop makes a bigger margin on a pre-owned title, and can sell them six or seven times, so there is no incentive for them to reorder and the content creator gets no slice of the action.

GP: "No slice of the action," of course, is the operative phrase in Livingstone's mini-rant.

Frankly, I have no sympathy for the industry's used game whiners and even less when I remember that digital distribution is inching ever closer. When that happens, the publishers will be in the driver's seat.

Enjoy your used game savings while you can.

Via: gi.biz

Comments

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

I wonder if they could strike an agreement with Gamestop, et al, so that there's a six-month moratorium on used game sales. Stuff that I'm willing to buy within the first six months of the game's release, I'm happy to buy new. Developers should be rewarded for making outstanding games and publishers should be rewarded for chosing to fund and distribute them.

If you go crazy then I will still call you Superman.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Gamestop would never agree to something like this, their whole business model is based on used games, even if the trade in is used to pay for a new game, their pocket money comes from being able to resell the used game they bought at a high value to offset the cost of the used game they buy back that don't sell.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Ah... a voice of reason in a sea of crap. Tbh, six months is unnecessarily long - three or four months would have the desired effect, I reckon.


-- teh moominz --

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

There's very few situations that this can lead to and most have a bad end for the consumer.

A.  Digital distribution becomes the norm.  Producers set price rates. Internet companies raise prices for bandwidth usage which will go up.  STores get cut out of the equation.

B. You have more deals like Dragon Age where they include parts of the game as downloadable and charge you to get it if its used.

C.  They have a resurgence of a cd key system or something along those lines. Where your key may only be registered once to an account then the game is useless.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

You know, if they made video games that people wanted to hang on to for a month or  two, then this would not be a problem. I hate places like gamestop that try to push used versions of new realses on you, but I have to wonder:

Why is a used version of the game available for sale a mere week after it was released? A $60 game should be able to keep you busy for at least that long. That is the real problem.

Maybe digital distribution will give smaller publishers like Telltale games and 2D Boy more or a chance, and maybe the big boys will realize that games have become too expensive to make this gen. Cut back on the presentation and give us more gameplay, innovation, and depth to the story.

More games like 'Little King's Story' and 'World of Goo' wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

"Why is a used version of the game available for sale a mere week after it was released? A $60 game should be able to keep you busy for at least that long. That is the real problem."

Everyone loves to jump on this point.  Let me reiterate something that was said earlier in the thread: a significant majority of game purchases are gifts.  I don't know about you, but I know I've bought at least one game as a gift for someone that was, plain and simple, not the sort of thing the gift recipient was into.  Guess what happened?  The game was returned, and the money spent on something else.

Not the developer's fault in the slightest.  But still, there was a used game on the shelf right next to the new ones.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Because more then a week after it's release and the game is only worth $2 instead of it's real value at that store chain.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Yeah, he's whining. I don't recall hearing Ikea complain about how the "used furniture market" is wiping them out, or even Ford or GM saying the same for cars, and they're standing at the entrance to their own tombs! And yet he's sitting at the helm of one of the largest companies in his industry, an industry that's weathering the financial situation quite well compared to many other segments, and bemoaning the fact that he dosen't get a cut of a market that no-one else in ANY industry gets a cut of.

Yeah, it -is- whining. Sad, pathetic whining that I'd more expect out of a 12 year old or a first year business student. Not from a company president.

 

Best keep your wits about you: The gears of life are always spinning, and ignorance eventually means you'll get caught in them.

Best keep your wits about you: The gears of life are always spinning, and ignorance eventually means you'll get caught in them.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Laughable.  Go read sheppy's post further up the page.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

You do know that Ford and other car manufacturers make money out of the used car industry don't you?  Ford like other car manufacturers sell used cars directly through themselves.

Here's an interesting read on the used car market in India:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2484502,prtpage-1.cms

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Then why don't the game companies do this? They can give a better deal on prices to sellers than GS, cutting GS market out from under it.

 

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

To be fair, Ford's in a much better position than GM.  Ford didn't get bailout money.  GM did.

I could go on a tirade now, but the Daily Show's on.

 

"That's not ironic. That's justice."

"That's not ironic. That's justice."

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Kill the used game market, and people will turn in even greater numbers to download their games online... and not legally.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Whine, whine, whine.

Just shut up already. You have NO RIGHT to any sales made after you sell the game for the first time. Period. So shut the hell up RIGHT NOW!

</angry>

I am so damn tired of hearing these grumblings about used game sales. If you don't want people to sell the games, make better games!

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

And yet gamers whine incessently about the price of a new game when it offers them much higher entertainment value then a movie at a theatre or a dvd or VHS tape. Where's your rightous indignation about those industries, oh wait you're either pirating or you just rent? Hmm. Or maybe you actually go out and only buy movies that you think you'll watch a bunch of times. Or maybe like most people you have gotten used to the price point.

 

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Lol I always find it funny how somehow people twist it around to make it seem like the developers making money is bad for the consumer. If anything we should be upset that retailers are getting the majority of profits out of the market.

After all, if GS goes out of business we'll just buy our games from BB or some other store. IF Eidos goes out of business, bye bye games period.

EDIT: In this post Eidos was used as an example for developers. Stuff like this is why indie games are taking over a large portion of the market and less and less AAA games are coming out. Companies don't want to bother risking spending money on something that might not sell well as a first sale when they can just put out cheap crap that will sell as a gimmick and make them more of a profit. After all if they only spend $100,000 developing instead of $1,000,000 it's a lot easier to make that back and make a profit.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Frankly, I have no sympathy for the industry's used game whiners and even less when I remember that digital distribution is inching ever closer. When that happens, the publishers will be in the driver's seat.

You do know what's causing the push for digital distribution don't you? The used-game market. Because the used game market is being abused (much more than any other industry) publishers can stop that all together by shifting everything over to downloads only. It's a circular effect, people using the used-games market to make a statement against digital distribution, whilst digital distribution expands due to the pressures of the ever-growing used-games market. In the end it doesn't benefit the consumer.

The Eidos president also said in the article (omitted from this site for biased reasons) that retail is important as it helps to promote games, so full digital distribution isn't the solution to the problem. He actually gave a balanced interview (something that is not being reported here) stating the pros and cons of the business. So quit the whining about the supposed (but non-existent) whining and actually read and report on all of the comments which do actually offer more than many games execs have said in the past and what some people have posted here.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

"The Eidos president also said in the article (omitted from this site for biased reasons) that retail is important as it helps to promote games..."

I didn't write this one but I imagine the one line you're talking about was omitted, not due to bias but for space reasons and the fact that that's not what this GP story is reporting on.

"He actually gave a balanced interview (something that is not being reported here) stating the pros and cons of the business."

Really?  Where?  With the exception of "These aren't just shops, they are a marketing tool, a window into our world where software houses can display their wares," every, single other comment from Livingstone is about used games.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

the fact that that's not what this GP story is reporting on

It's completely relevant to the report. The editorial believes used games are payback for digital distribution, the comments made by the Eidos President show that he doesn't believe DD to be the answer and that there is a need for a physical format and for shops to sell it. He says that whilst retailers are not good for his business due to used games market they are need for advertising. The comments are entirely relevant to the report and change the tone of the Eidos President's comments.

Really?  Where?  With the exception of "These aren't just shops, they are a marketing tool, a window into our world where software houses can display their wares," every, single other comment from Livingstone is about used games.

He makes one (or technically two) comments about the negative impact on used games and one on the need for retail (basically saying that cutting shops out of the picture isn't good and that they need to work together). That seems balanced to me, hardly a tirade on the used games market.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

"It's completely relevant to the report."

Eh, I disagree.  This is just another in a long line of publishers complaining (whining, discussing, however you want to phrase it) that they're not seeing dime one from used game sales.  Livingstone's one comment that retail stores are a good place to advertise games doesn't strike me as necessary for inclusion.

"He makes one (or technically two) comments about the negative impact on used games and one on the need for retail.  That seems balanced to me, hardly a tirade on the used games market."

I wouldn't categorize his comments as a tirade either.  And neither did GP.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

No he's saying that the used-game market could be completely destroyed by avoiding retail all together, but games companies need retail to help promote games, thusly destroying the used-game market by way of complete digital distribution is not in their interests. Completely relevant comment.


Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Man, you certainly are reading a lot into a single sentence (and I'm not saying I disagree with your conclusion).  Still, that one comment I feel is not necessary to include in a short article about another publisher going on about used games and I certainly don't feel it was omitted due to any particular bias or attempt to paint Livingstone in a bad light.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

You know, I'm a big Dennis supporter, but I really have to disagree with you here, Andrew.  State is dead on; that "one line" that was apparently omitted seems extremely relevant here, especially when he's making such heavy-handed commentary on the tone of Livingstone's statement.

I hate to say it, but this seems like horribly selective reporting.  I don't think it sounds like whining, but then again, I don't necessarily agree with the omitted statement, either.  I think by the time it's feasible to move to an entirely DD-based industrial model, we'll probably be able to rely solely on digital advertising as well.

One thing these CEO's are missing

I'm going to keep it easy and to the point.

Most retail stores only devote so much space for games. So most games that were released, say last year are no longer on those shelves because of having to make room for new releases.

And most times trying to find and buy a game that was released 3-4 years ago isn't that easy. So a lot of times you have to rely on the pre-owned market to find and buy these games.

Re: One thing these CEO's are missing

I doubt it's the sales of second-hand 4 year old games that's hurting them. It's the shops selling second-hand recently released games instead of the new copies that is damaging. Many companies stop producing a title after about a year, so then they don't expect profits to come from that any more, so second hand sales of that title won't do harm. The harm comes from when a new copy is available but the consumer plumps for the used copy..

What annoys me now in shops like GAME (in the UK) is that more space is devoted to used games than it is to new games, and now they do the same on their website. In many cases I can buy the new version cheaper than the used version, although now the used games market is used to keep the new game market prices high. It does seem as though these companies are actually forcing the consumer to buy used instead of new.

Re: One thing these CEO's are missing

What's really hurting them is that they are churning out crap and selling it at 60 bucks a pop. Games with little to no replay value. That's why they have games being sold as used within days of release, cause the game only has a couple days play time worth of content.

My thought being that they got paid for a copy. If they didn't make a product that a consumer felt had value enough to keep, that is their problem. If I see a game that is new, but there is a used copy right next to it, even if it's only 5 dollars cheaper, I'm gonna buy the used copy first. The previous user obviously felt like the game didn't have lasting value, so why should the company get both his money and mine?

Re: One thing these CEO's are missing

I don't understand the logic, you see a used-version of a recently released game and so you know it to be poor, but decide to buy it anyway, but buy the second hand version so the games company doesn't get an money from it. Wouldn't it be best if you didn't waste your money in the first place?

Re: One thing these CEO's are missing

"used-version of a recently released game and so you know it to be poor"

used-version =/= poor

maybe that will help you understand. In the end, if I am interested in the game, im gonna buy the used one. It's the developers responsibility to make the games good enough that people don't want to get rid of them within a week.

It's not my fault they hype their game into oblivion just to see the top of the charts based not on the quality of the game.

I hold no loyalty to a developer, because no developer holds a loyalty to me, they only see the bottom line, I treat them in kind.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Funny I never got a letter from Subaru complaining that they didn't get a "slice of the action" when I sold my car.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Look at his picture, he looks kind of red-faced and mad.  Settle down, guy, you'll give yourself a coronary.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

*sigh* another CEO who's knowledge of economics is limited to direct effects only.

Seriously, how do people like this manage to become CEOs with economic backgrounds that stop at high school?   I have trouble even considering this high school level knowledge since I know my economics teacher would have slapped me if I made these kinda of claims.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

-ehm-

 

That is not quite true, I find. Many are the times I have seen or read on different gaming fora that players have picked up a used copy of this or that game and then have thought 'hey, let's get the new game that's coming out in the series'.

The Eidos boss fails to understand that hype building can also come from the re-selling of old games, not just from used games.

The used book market have existed for a very long; how's the market for used games any different.
As long as you un-install the game before you sell it, you have a right to do so...

 

 

 

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

So long as the game doesn't have install limits.  It very effectively killed the used PC game market.

 

"That's not ironic. That's justice."

"That's not ironic. That's justice."

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Hey Edios, you want some cheese with that whine?

http://www.magicinkgaming.com/

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Yes, we realize you want to make a buck whenever a good you made changes hands, but here's the thing - After it's sold to the first end-user, it's no longer your disc.  It's theirs, and they have a right to sell it to whoever they wish and keep all the money for themselves.  If I sold all my Eidos games (won't happen, btw), I wouldn't cut Eidos a check.  If I ran a store that only sold used stuff, I wouldn't track down the companies that originally made all the stuff and cut them checks.

It's like this in every industry with a used market.  Get used to it.  If you don't like it, tough.

 

"That's not ironic. That's justice."

"That's not ironic. That's justice."

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

If you don't like it, tough.

It's not "tough", they have a solution to end it all, digital distribution, which will end up with the consumer being even worse off than now.

The games companies could easily stop all of the used-games market very quickly (the PSP GO is aimed at doing this). So it's ignorant to believe that they can't do anything about it, because they can and they will.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

"The games companies could easily stop all of the used-games market very quickly (the PSP GO is aimed at doing this). So it's ignorant to believe that they can't do anything about it, because they can and they will."

 

In that case I hope the psp go fails, I still plan on getting a psp(the 3000 to be exact)

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

And it shall kill gaming.

---

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

It might kill a section of gaming, but honestly the portion of the gaming population that actually cares about things like this is very small. The majority of the money in the game industry still comes from kiddies buying things like my little pony and whatever other games they have out right now. I would almost be surprised by this, but then I look at how gamers behave and I'm really not.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

You're kidding, right?  the majority or the industry's income comes from kids buying kiddie games?  The portion of the gaming populace that cares about buying used games is very small?  What?

No offense but what are you on about?  Firstly, games aren't just for kids anymore, and, with the exception of Nintendo churning out hum-drum casual games and even non-game applications for the DS and WII, it would seem that most games out there are of a more mature nature and are aimed at an older audience.  I can walk into any random EB or GAME and find the racks decked with games that are obviously not aimed at kiddies.

With the US going into recession and other countries (such as Australia, where I am) begining to feel the effects, I'd think that gamers are starting to care more and more about used games.  Especially when considering that there are gamers who will buy a single game from EB, return it less than a week later and exchange it for the full price in store credit, then use that to buy another new game, and then repeat the process, putting the returned but relatively new game on the used game rack.  This practice drives down the retail price and, since many gamers know about this, it also makes gamers more inclined to meander a while longer in the used game sections.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Of course games aren't just for kids anymore. But if you actually look at sales numbers kid's games sell far and above almost every other type and genre (excluding possibly sports games). Real AAA titles, while more interesting and generally more impressive, don't sell as well because consumers have more choice in what to buy. Publishers use kid's games to keep a solid working base of money while they take higher risks for hopefully large payoffs on larger games.

As for the comment on people caring about used games, the largest sector buying games are parents and grandparents buying gifts, and those people, while they will look for the best price, aren't going to care much one way or the other if they can buy used or not.

Your points on the way used games work are spot on, but they also prove another point, that the majority of gamers will buy used before new if they are able because it's cheaper. Once again showing that while the used game market isn't killing the industry, it's not helping it either. Personally I cannot wait for full DD/DLC/etc. use to drive out the used game market, because that's when we're finally going to see companies be able to start pumping out more games that are actually impressive.

And frankly that won't kill the game industry, because at that point they will be getting more money then now because people will actually be paying them rather then the retailors.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Really?  Name me one kid's game on any home console (except the Wii) that is in the top ten sellers for it.  Name me any kid's game that is the number one seller.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games

I'm sorry, you don't get to say "except wii" in that statement. Fact of the matter is the Wii is the industry leader at this point (unless you start tallying previous generation consoles or handhelds). If you're going to start eliminating contestants based on platform I can jsut as easily say that the 360 and PS3 don't count because their game libraries are primarily gauged to older audiences.

Here is a list of games and their sale rates, pick your fav and compare to games like pokemon etc.

One example: Nintendogs: 22.27 mil. versus say FFVII one of the most sought after games since it's release, at a mere 9.8 million. Or pokemon yellow (since the red blue are lumped together) rivaling it at 8.6 mil.

Kids games sell better because of the same factors that make sports games sell. Large audience, small selection. FPS, Action, etc. games sell well when they are well done, but they have a lot more competition in the market and more niche audiences.

And yes wiki's are terrible sources but the numbers won't be that far off.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Hey, check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#Xbox_360

So, on systems not billed as 'family systems' and systems that people actually play, looks like games oriented more towards adults win. You can flash any game in front of a child and they'll want it; doesn't mean they play it for more than 5 minutes.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Like I said before you don't get to ignore all other consoles besides the Xbox just because it gives you wood. Xbox =/= the videogame industry, at best right now it represents 25% of the industry, and I highly doubt even that number is correct because besides the three major consoles you also have to factor in PCs and handhelds which account for much larger percentages of the market then consoles.

The top game on the Xbox console sold less then the 5th game on the gameboy color console. That's copies sold. Obviously the AAA titles aren't running the major market share.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#Top_20_con...

Only 1 game on that list would be dubbed not suitable for anyone under 13. The other 19 are probably E for all or lower.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

This practice drives down the retail price

From my experience the used games market helps keep game prices high as shops are less willing to reduce the price on new versions as the used version offers an (apparently) cheaper alternative.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

Bioware is trying an interesting tactic with thier upcoming Dragon Age: Origins game.  They have a DLC pack that's going to be ready at launch, called The Stone Guardian.  Now, this packet isn't integral to the main storyline, and if you don't have it, you won't even notice its abscence.  What it gives you is access to a new party member (a golem) and their associated questlines.

Here's why I find it interesting.  Everyone who boys the game new (boxed or digital, regular or CE) will get The Stone Guardian FREE.  No cost.  If you have an internet connection, it's yours.  However, if you buy a pre-owned copy, with the code already used up and the game registered, then you have to pay $15 to get this DLC.  You don't HAVE to download it, and like I said, it's not integral to the primary game.

Here's what they're hoping:

1.  In the first few months, when pre-owned games are priced comparatively to new games (like only $5-10 less), the high price of this DLC will convince many buyers to just select new copies.

2.  Later on, when the pre-owned prices drop dramatically, then Bioware can still make a little extra profit off those sales by anyone who downloads the DLC.

They're not denouncing the pre-owned market, but are instead trying to find ways to coexist with it.  I think this, as I said, interesting.  If it is successful, I think many companies will use DLC in this way to incourage more buyers to purchase new.  The choice to buy used is still there, and the choice not the buy DLC is still there, so I have no problems with this strategy.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

It's definitely the smart way to do it. And tons of people will be wanting everything, even if it is just a little part. I have to applaud them for coming up with a way around people buying used.

I would have bought it new anyway though :)

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

When it is used game sales, everything is ok.

When it is piracy, we will flip a bitch.

Re: Another Used Game Whiner: Eidos Boss

This guy is a whiny little bitch.  Next please.

 
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